(edited by Deimos Tel Arin.7391)
freedom of stats allocation: why don't you want it?
1 2
because it would require a lot of work to rebalance things so it makes sense, and would probably lead to a mass nerfing of traits. (part of the balance in grandmaster traits is that it comes with X stat commitment, and thus limits your choices elsewhere)
Its not impossible, but it is something that would turn the entire game on its head, and there is no reason to believe it would actually improve the game in doing so.
The essence gear thread seems like a good idea. I too would like to be able to change skins to other skins I’ve already collected without destroying another 300+ dungeon tokens etc. if I want to change my look back. Using a transmutation stone to absorb is a good idea.
Would probably get people that didn’t buy them because of the limitations to buy.
Welcome to my world – http://emikochan13.wordpress.com
Nobody cared about this topic the last time you made it, or the time before that, or the time before that.
Stop making this thread.
because it would require a lot of work to rebalance things so it makes sense, and would probably lead to a mass nerfing of traits. (part of the balance in grandmaster traits is that it comes with X stat commitment, and thus limits your choices elsewhere)
Its not impossible, but it is something that would turn the entire game on its head, and there is no reason to believe it would actually improve the game in doing so.
what could go wrong with:
- giving us blank skins
- filling it up with x1 major attribute and x2 minor attributes ourselves?
because it would require a lot of work to rebalance things so it makes sense, and would probably lead to a mass nerfing of traits. (part of the balance in grandmaster traits is that it comes with X stat commitment, and thus limits your choices elsewhere)
Its not impossible, but it is something that would turn the entire game on its head, and there is no reason to believe it would actually improve the game in doing so.what could go wrong with:
- giving us blank skins
- filling it up with x1 major attribute and x2 minor attributes ourselves?
Lots of things could go wrong with it. The problem is you’re not a game designer and so you can’t see it. You’re interested in what you want to do…which is fine..since you don’t get to design the game.
The more “freedom” you give in builds, the harder everything is to balance. The less control you have. Games with too much freedom often have the worst balance.
Right now, stats are pretty much capped at how much you can put into them. Changing this so it’s a free for all, means that certain builds could be created that would quite literally break the game.
We had that in Guild Wars 1 sometimes, where a certain build would come out and until it was nerfed, it was all you could do if you wanted to play the game.
Lots of things could go wrong with it. The problem is you’re not a game designer and so you can’t see it. You’re interested in what you want to do…which is fine..since you don’t get to design the game.
The more “freedom” you give in builds, the harder everything is to balance. The less control you have. Games with too much freedom often have the worst balance.
Right now, stats are pretty much capped at how much you can put into them. Changing this so it’s a free for all, means that certain builds could be created that would quite literally break the game.
We had that in Guild Wars 1 sometimes, where a certain build would come out and until it was nerfed, it was all you could do if you wanted to play the game.
could you give me one example of how freely allocating
x1 major attribute
x2 minor attribute
to 17 – 19 pieces of blank armor / trinkets / weapon could break the balance etc?
lets theory craft maybe?
Lots of things could go wrong with it. The problem is you’re not a game designer and so you can’t see it. You’re interested in what you want to do…which is fine..since you don’t get to design the game.
The more “freedom” you give in builds, the harder everything is to balance. The less control you have. Games with too much freedom often have the worst balance.
Right now, stats are pretty much capped at how much you can put into them. Changing this so it’s a free for all, means that certain builds could be created that would quite literally break the game.
We had that in Guild Wars 1 sometimes, where a certain build would come out and until it was nerfed, it was all you could do if you wanted to play the game.
could you give me one example of how freely allocating
x1 major attribute
x2 minor attributeto 17 – 19 pieces of blank armor / trinkets / weapon could break the balance etc?
lets theory craft maybe?
No, I can’t, because I’m too lazy to care if you get it or not. But the logic of it is pretty simple.
Right now, there are X numbers of possible combinations of stats. That’s it. That’s how many stat combinations there are.
Once you have more combinations of stats, that means that certain stats could, conceivably go higher than “intended”.
Simply put, the options that are available are options for a reason. Now I may not know that reason, but it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that Anet didn’t test other stat combos and find them OP.
Since I don’t know, I can’t say, but it seems to be a logical reason why certain stat combos exist and certain others don’t. I can’t think of any other reason, off the top of my head.
So if you can put any stats you want, you’d then create a combo which hasn’t been balanced for.
It’s pretty simple logic.
thanks for replying!
ah, i get what you are saying, but i guess i want to see some actual possible scenarios examples etc.
because i cannot imagine what could go wrong or imbalanced with more freedom of stats allocation.
i.e.
more damage? low health, armor.
more health? low armor, damage.
more armor? low health, damage
etc
what could go wrong?
could anyone else show me?
No, I can’t, because I’m too lazy to care if you get it or not. But the logic of it is pretty simple.
Right now, there are X numbers of possible combinations of stats. That’s it. That’s how many stat combinations there are.
Once you have more combinations of stats, that means that certain stats could, conceivably go higher than “intended”.
Simply put, the options that are available are options for a reason. Now I may not know that reason, but it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that Anet didn’t test other stat combos and find them OP.
Since I don’t know, I can’t say, but it seems to be a logical reason why certain stat combos exist and certain others don’t. I can’t think of any other reason, off the top of my head.
So if you can put any stats you want, you’d then create a combo which hasn’t been balanced for.
It’s pretty simple logic.
because it would require a lot of work to rebalance things so it makes sense, and would probably lead to a mass nerfing of traits. (part of the balance in grandmaster traits is that it comes with X stat commitment, and thus limits your choices elsewhere)
Its not impossible, but it is something that would turn the entire game on its head, and there is no reason to believe it would actually improve the game in doing so.what could go wrong with:
- giving us blank skins
- filling it up with x1 major attribute and x2 minor attributes ourselves?
i think they should implement something like this in the future, but not exactly blank skins. But your initial post in this thread just says free allocation of stats, which is not even what you just suggested
Lots of things could go wrong with it. The problem is you’re not a game designer and so you can’t see it. You’re interested in what you want to do…which is fine..since you don’t get to design the game.
The more “freedom” you give in builds, the harder everything is to balance. The less control you have. Games with too much freedom often have the worst balance.
Right now, stats are pretty much capped at how much you can put into them. Changing this so it’s a free for all, means that certain builds could be created that would quite literally break the game.
We had that in Guild Wars 1 sometimes, where a certain build would come out and until it was nerfed, it was all you could do if you wanted to play the game.
could you give me one example of how freely allocating
x1 major attribute
x2 minor attributeto 17 – 19 pieces of blank armor / trinkets / weapon could break the balance etc?
lets theory craft maybe?
off the top of my head, a couple imba stat allocations would be:
pow/TOUGH/heal
CON/vit/tough
Don’t disturb me, I have a cat in me at the moment.
Lots of things could go wrong with it. The problem is you’re not a game designer and so you can’t see it. You’re interested in what you want to do…which is fine..since you don’t get to design the game.
The more “freedom” you give in builds, the harder everything is to balance. The less control you have. Games with too much freedom often have the worst balance.
Right now, stats are pretty much capped at how much you can put into them. Changing this so it’s a free for all, means that certain builds could be created that would quite literally break the game.
We had that in Guild Wars 1 sometimes, where a certain build would come out and until it was nerfed, it was all you could do if you wanted to play the game.
could you give me one example of how freely allocating
x1 major attribute
x2 minor attributeto 17 – 19 pieces of blank armor / trinkets / weapon could break the balance etc?
lets theory craft maybe?
No, I can’t, because I’m too lazy to care if you get it or not. But the logic of it is pretty simple.
Right now, there are X numbers of possible combinations of stats. That’s it. That’s how many stat combinations there are.
Once you have more combinations of stats, that means that certain stats could, conceivably go higher than “intended”.
Simply put, the options that are available are options for a reason. Now I may not know that reason, but it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that Anet didn’t test other stat combos and find them OP.
Since I don’t know, I can’t say, but it seems to be a logical reason why certain stat combos exist and certain others don’t. I can’t think of any other reason, off the top of my head.
So if you can put any stats you want, you’d then create a combo which hasn’t been balanced for.
It’s pretty simple logic.
gear wise, in PVE i dont think there is really that power for OPness. from selecting major and minor stats by choice. Except for extreme min maxing you can already do this by combining different types the problem is, the implementation of doing that is extremely un user friendly and daunting. Also, i think they will probably release most stat combinations eventually anyhow. we already have a great many of them
Lots of things could go wrong with it. The problem is you’re not a game designer and so you can’t see it. You’re interested in what you want to do…which is fine..since you don’t get to design the game.
The more “freedom” you give in builds, the harder everything is to balance. The less control you have. Games with too much freedom often have the worst balance.
Right now, stats are pretty much capped at how much you can put into them. Changing this so it’s a free for all, means that certain builds could be created that would quite literally break the game.
We had that in Guild Wars 1 sometimes, where a certain build would come out and until it was nerfed, it was all you could do if you wanted to play the game.
could you give me one example of how freely allocating
x1 major attribute
x2 minor attributeto 17 – 19 pieces of blank armor / trinkets / weapon could break the balance etc?
lets theory craft maybe?
No, I can’t, because I’m too lazy to care if you get it or not. But the logic of it is pretty simple.
Right now, there are X numbers of possible combinations of stats. That’s it. That’s how many stat combinations there are.
Once you have more combinations of stats, that means that certain stats could, conceivably go higher than “intended”.
Simply put, the options that are available are options for a reason. Now I may not know that reason, but it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that Anet didn’t test other stat combos and find them OP.
Since I don’t know, I can’t say, but it seems to be a logical reason why certain stat combos exist and certain others don’t. I can’t think of any other reason, off the top of my head.
So if you can put any stats you want, you’d then create a combo which hasn’t been balanced for.
It’s pretty simple logic.
gear wise, in PVE i dont think there is really that power for OPness. from selecting major and minor stats by choice. Except for extreme min maxing you can already do this by combining different types the problem is, the implementation of doing that is extremely un user friendly and daunting. Also, i think they will probably release most stat combinations eventually anyhow. we already have a great many of them
We do have a great many of them…which makes me wonder why some have been excluded and if it’s intentional. If it is, we can’t obviously open it up.
I’d assume several combos aren’t offered simply for balance reasons. Naturally I could be wrong, but until I hear otherwise, it’s not such a poor logical leap to make.
Lots of things could go wrong with it. The problem is you’re not a game designer and so you can’t see it. You’re interested in what you want to do…which is fine..since you don’t get to design the game.
The more “freedom” you give in builds, the harder everything is to balance. The less control you have. Games with too much freedom often have the worst balance.
Right now, stats are pretty much capped at how much you can put into them. Changing this so it’s a free for all, means that certain builds could be created that would quite literally break the game.
We had that in Guild Wars 1 sometimes, where a certain build would come out and until it was nerfed, it was all you could do if you wanted to play the game.
could you give me one example of how freely allocating
x1 major attribute
x2 minor attributeto 17 – 19 pieces of blank armor / trinkets / weapon could break the balance etc?
lets theory craft maybe?
off the top of my head, a couple imba stat allocations would be:
pow/TOUGH/heal
CON/vit/tough
i dont really see toughness major power heal minor as OP
i dont think
condition dmg vit toughness is OP either. because most condition damage builds need critical to apply a lot of conditions, you really wouldnt have OP damage with just conditions, especially in PVE
Lots of things could go wrong with it. The problem is you’re not a game designer and so you can’t see it. You’re interested in what you want to do…which is fine..since you don’t get to design the game.
The more “freedom” you give in builds, the harder everything is to balance. The less control you have. Games with too much freedom often have the worst balance.
Right now, stats are pretty much capped at how much you can put into them. Changing this so it’s a free for all, means that certain builds could be created that would quite literally break the game.
We had that in Guild Wars 1 sometimes, where a certain build would come out and until it was nerfed, it was all you could do if you wanted to play the game.
could you give me one example of how freely allocating
x1 major attribute
x2 minor attributeto 17 – 19 pieces of blank armor / trinkets / weapon could break the balance etc?
lets theory craft maybe?
No, I can’t, because I’m too lazy to care if you get it or not. But the logic of it is pretty simple.
Right now, there are X numbers of possible combinations of stats. That’s it. That’s how many stat combinations there are.
Once you have more combinations of stats, that means that certain stats could, conceivably go higher than “intended”.
Simply put, the options that are available are options for a reason. Now I may not know that reason, but it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that Anet didn’t test other stat combos and find them OP.
Since I don’t know, I can’t say, but it seems to be a logical reason why certain stat combos exist and certain others don’t. I can’t think of any other reason, off the top of my head.
So if you can put any stats you want, you’d then create a combo which hasn’t been balanced for.
It’s pretty simple logic.
gear wise, in PVE i dont think there is really that power for OPness. from selecting major and minor stats by choice. Except for extreme min maxing you can already do this by combining different types the problem is, the implementation of doing that is extremely un user friendly and daunting. Also, i think they will probably release most stat combinations eventually anyhow. we already have a great many of them
We do have a great many of them…which makes me wonder why some have been excluded and if it’s intentional. If it is, we can’t obviously open it up.
I’d assume several combos aren’t offered simply for balance reasons. Naturally I could be wrong, but until I hear otherwise, it’s not such a poor logical leap to make.
they said one of the reasons they dont have certain stat distributions en masse, is because they havent got around to actually implementing them physically, IE some one has to make a name, make the items, put them as drops. Also they want some combinations to be obtained in different ways. I would imagine that option shock may also be a factor.
Honestly as far as PVE goes, i dont see too much OPness coming from selecting minor and majors yourself. Most of the issues i see are logistical, which doesnt diminish them, but really its fast approaching something like this being necessary.
too little inventory, too many stat option prefixes.
But WvW takes your PvE character as is, and there some of this stuff might be hairy.
Lots of things could go wrong with it. The problem is you’re not a game designer and so you can’t see it. You’re interested in what you want to do…which is fine..since you don’t get to design the game.
The more “freedom” you give in builds, the harder everything is to balance. The less control you have. Games with too much freedom often have the worst balance.
Right now, stats are pretty much capped at how much you can put into them. Changing this so it’s a free for all, means that certain builds could be created that would quite literally break the game.
We had that in Guild Wars 1 sometimes, where a certain build would come out and until it was nerfed, it was all you could do if you wanted to play the game.
could you give me one example of how freely allocating
x1 major attribute
x2 minor attributeto 17 – 19 pieces of blank armor / trinkets / weapon could break the balance etc?
lets theory craft maybe?
off the top of my head, a couple imba stat allocations would be:
pow/TOUGH/heal
CON/vit/toughi dont really see toughness major power heal minor as OP
i dont think
condition dmg vit toughness is OP either. because most condition damage builds need critical to apply a lot of conditions, you really wouldnt have OP damage with just conditions, especially in PVE
Are you kidding me? 3.5k armor on a guard with decent power and healing. or even p/T/v for guard to offset the condi damage.
Condi damage on a high-hp necro with decent toughness. There are a number of classes that apply condition on hit. And to say you can’t be OP in pve with conditions is just… fail =/
Don’t disturb me, I have a cat in me at the moment.
the implementation of doing that is extremely un user friendly and daunting. Also, i think they will probably release most stat combinations eventually anyhow. we already have a great many of them
well, we could have both. current system for user friendly and the “fill in blanks” for those who want their own customization. more gold sink too. i.e. vendors sell a tool that allow extraction of attribute stones from any weapon armor trinkets.
more stats combinations would not hurt though.
the implementation of doing that is extremely un user friendly and daunting. Also, i think they will probably release most stat combinations eventually anyhow. we already have a great many of them
well, we could have both. current system for user friendly and the “fill in blanks” for those who want their own customization. more gold sink too. i.e. vendors sell a tool that allow extraction of attribute stones from any weapon armor trinkets.
more stats combinations would not hurt though.
You keep saying they won’t hurt. How do you know this?
You keep saying they won’t hurt. How do you know this?
well, i suppose i keep saying that, because perhaps i have yet to see an example of how they would hurt?
You keep saying they won’t hurt. How do you know this?
well, i suppose i keep saying that, because perhaps i have yet to see an example of how they would hurt?
But you don’t really know, that’s my point. Anyway, someone did furnish examples, which someone else didn’t agree with, but an example was furnished. Penatbater did say that he believed certain combos would be OP, which means you did in fact get your example.
The problem is, you’re so one-sided on what you want, you don’t even care what other people say.
But you don’t really know, that’s my point. Anyway, someone did furnish examples, which someone else didn’t agree with, but an example was furnished. Penatbater did say that he believed certain combos would be OP, which means you did in fact get your example.
The problem is, you’re so one-sided on what you want, you don’t even care what other people say.
but i haven not really seen an OP example yet.
“3.5k armor on a guard with decent power and healing”
high armor will meant lower other stats. i.e. lower health, damage etc.
it would be balanced yes?
edit:
now lets say if all 17-19 weapon armor trinkets to use the following:
pow/TOUGH/heal
- low health (death by conditions)
CON/vit/tough
- low base attack damage
- high condition damage, but may be ineffective against characters with ranged attacks over light fields and condition removers etc
CON/vit/tough might probably be a good counter to pow/TOUGH/heal i guess.
(edited by Deimos Tel Arin.7391)
The problem is you’re not a game designer and so you can’t see it.
Uh, anyone can be a game designer. It’s not a title that presumes the bearer is a bastion of knowledge or talent in their field, like “doctor” or “lawyer” or “virtuoso”. Game designers are promoted to their duties from all sorts of jobs, from programmers to artists, to even lowly Quality Assurance personnel hired on as temporary workers. Markus “notch” Persson, one of the most influential developers in PC gaming today, has no more formal training in creating professional software entertainment products than any given GW2 forum poster.
I don’t think it’s safe to assume that Arenanet has some immaculately cohesive vision for Guild Wars 2, where there is nothing left to add or take away, that none of us lowly mortals could ever comprehend, when there is so much evidence to the contrary.
I"m pretty sure that game designers (not the guys who just program or do graphics, but those responsible for actual design), actually do have some sort of vision, certainly starting out. But that doesn’t really apply to this conversation. What does apply is this…
Every single person who plays the game sees it from their point of view…that is they see the trees, but not the forest. They suggest changes, but they don’t necessarily have the vision or experience to see where those changes will lead. The same might or might not be true for a game designer, but a game designer is generally less self-interested. Their interest, if they’re any good at it, is the over all health of the game.
So you got guys in the thieves forum who play thieves who cry over every nerf, or make suggestions that would make thieves massively OP. Why? Because they’re only thinking about their game, and their character.
The OP has posted this topic I think this might be the third time and has gotten several people who disagreed with him. He even said so in this OP. He doesn’t understand why people disagree.
I’m not even sure I disagree, I’m just saying that if certain combos aren’t in the game, it’s entirely possible they’re not in the game for a reason. But the OP only wants what he wants…whatever that is.
Someone gives him an example of a combo that could be OP and he says he doesn’t think so. Okay.
The OP is beating a drum about something he wants, but I’m not so sure the OP is experienced enough in game design to see the long term ramifications on every aspect of the game. Of course, it’s not his job to see that. But that doesn’t mean that if he can’t see something it doesn’t exist either.
I wouldn’t mind PoE’s passive skill tree "wheel" for traits and Diablo III’s or Guild Wars 1’s system for active skills (either choosing cards for "deck" compatible with the weapon, or various mutations of existing skills). Then again, a certain demographic would feel disadvantaged, so the Anet has to crack down on us creative types, so that button-mashing tops planning, strategising and mind games.
Accessability without depth is not much better from depth without accessability. I’d like for Anet to rise to the challenge over time and give us both, not just one or the other. Too much MOBA at the expense of traditional RPG flavours, that’s my opinion of character customisation thus far. In short, room for improvement.
Lots of things could go wrong with it. The problem is you’re not a game designer and so you can’t see it. You’re interested in what you want to do…which is fine..since you don’t get to design the game.
The more “freedom” you give in builds, the harder everything is to balance. The less control you have. Games with too much freedom often have the worst balance.
Right now, stats are pretty much capped at how much you can put into them. Changing this so it’s a free for all, means that certain builds could be created that would quite literally break the game.
We had that in Guild Wars 1 sometimes, where a certain build would come out and until it was nerfed, it was all you could do if you wanted to play the game.
could you give me one example of how freely allocating
x1 major attribute
x2 minor attributeto 17 – 19 pieces of blank armor / trinkets / weapon could break the balance etc?
lets theory craft maybe?
off the top of my head, a couple imba stat allocations would be:
pow/TOUGH/heal
CON/vit/toughi dont really see toughness major power heal minor as OP
i dont think
condition dmg vit toughness is OP either. because most condition damage builds need critical to apply a lot of conditions, you really wouldnt have OP damage with just conditions, especially in PVEAre you kidding me? 3.5k armor on a guard with decent power and healing. or even p/T/v for guard to offset the condi damage.
Condi damage on a high-hp necro with decent toughness. There are a number of classes that apply condition on hit. And to say you can’t be OP in pve with conditions is just… fail =/
the highest toughness with a secondary in power isnt that impressive, youd have no crits and no crit damage. Im not saying its trash, but its not really stronger than anything else.
Far as saying OP with conditions, is essentially accurate, im not saying this stuff is weak, im saying its not OVER powered. like i said most condition applying is tied to critical hits, Id say probably mesmer would be the craziest with condition and toughness, but the vit wouldnt be that necessary for that build.
like i said, do you really think either one of those builds would be stronger than any other statistic build? especially in PVE? is the high hp necro that afraid of getting hit they wouldnt rather have CON toughness prec? its just not overpowered versus builds we already have is all im saying
I love stat building games, but they require too much thought for most people. Most folks want their hands held in all aspects if a game, and their character leveling up and getting stronger is just one such aspect.
The problem is you’re not a game designer and so you can’t see it.
Uh, anyone can be a game designer. It’s not a title that presumes the bearer is a bastion of knowledge or talent in their field, like “doctor” or “lawyer” or “virtuoso”. Game designers are promoted to their duties from all sorts of jobs, from programmers to artists, to even lowly Quality Assurance personnel hired on as temporary workers. Markus “notch” Persson, one of the most influential developers in PC gaming today, has no more formal training in creating professional software entertainment products than any given GW2 forum poster.
I don’t think it’s safe to assume that Arenanet has some immaculately cohesive vision for Guild Wars 2, where there is nothing left to add or take away, that none of us lowly mortals could ever comprehend, when there is so much evidence to the contrary.
I"m pretty sure that game designers (not the guys who just program or do graphics, but those responsible for actual design), actually do have some sort of vision, certainly starting out. But that doesn’t really apply to this conversation. What does apply is this…
Every single person who plays the game sees it from their point of view…that is they see the trees, but not the forest. They suggest changes, but they don’t necessarily have the vision or experience to see where those changes will lead. The same might or might not be true for a game designer, but a game designer is generally less self-interested. Their interest, if they’re any good at it, is the over all health of the game.
So you got guys in the thieves forum who play thieves who cry over every nerf, or make suggestions that would make thieves massively OP. Why? Because they’re only thinking about their game, and their character.
The OP has posted this topic I think this might be the third time and has gotten several people who disagreed with him. He even said so in this OP. He doesn’t understand why people disagree.
I’m not even sure I disagree, I’m just saying that if certain combos aren’t in the game, it’s entirely possible they’re not in the game for a reason. But the OP only wants what he wants…whatever that is.
Someone gives him an example of a combo that could be OP and he says he doesn’t think so. Okay.
The OP is beating a drum about something he wants, but I’m not so sure the OP is experienced enough in game design to see the long term ramifications on every aspect of the game. Of course, it’s not his job to see that. But that doesn’t mean that if he can’t see something it doesn’t exist either.
your objection seems based in some history of his ideas. Im merely looking at it academically. I do beleive that anet probably initially limited combinations because they werent sure how things would pan out, and also for other reasons they have alluded to. I am also not positive that there are no OP stat combos, however, as far as PVE is concerned, i tend to doubt it. Most attacks are avoidable, in this type of system the most OP stat combos already exist, they are the glass cannon types, power prec crit dmg, and cond prec _.
as far as being super tanky, they already have clerics givers and shamans. Since these extremes exist, i doubt that other mixes would break the game.
I mean hey the designers can test it, but to be honest, the current system will continue to get bloated and become harder and harder for players to manage. People who want a mix of stats basically have to try to use a simulator. In trying to make it easy, it has become more complex. And really if they actually have certain stat combos that are insanely OP they can just make them uncreatable.
If I could choose my stats, I’d just go on my Guardian and deck her out with Healing Power, Toughness, Vit, go into WvW, and drink the tears of my enemies.
They have enough troubles trying to kill me in Cleric’s armor, even when I have a stat as useless as power. I say it’s useless because my goal was to make a pure defensive / support build, and power’s utterly useless for me with this setup. If I could choose Heal / Tough / Vit, people would talk about how OP it’d be, despite the fact that I’d have literally 0 offensive abilities.
However, part of me wants more combos of attributes, at least. Boon Duration and Condition duration are “relatively new” to affixes, so I’d like to see other combos using those ones. Part of me thinks we should be able to have Heal / Tough / Vit, (Despite the outcry of OP) mainly because we have the “pure offensive” setup of Power, Precision, Crit Damage. I’d like pure defensive. I -guess- giver’s could be considered defensive.
Point is: We have foods that are like “Turn X% of Y stat into Z stat” so glass Cannons could potentially become even MORE cannon, and bunkers would become even MORE bunkers. People are already complaining about the effectiveness of Glass Cannons and Bunkers already, and free stat allocation would make it even worse.
The problem is you’re not a game designer and so you can’t see it.
Uh, anyone can be a game designer. It’s not a title that presumes the bearer is a bastion of knowledge or talent in their field, like “doctor” or “lawyer” or “virtuoso”. Game designers are promoted to their duties from all sorts of jobs, from programmers to artists, to even lowly Quality Assurance personnel hired on as temporary workers. Markus “notch” Persson, one of the most influential developers in PC gaming today, has no more formal training in creating professional software entertainment products than any given GW2 forum poster.
I don’t think it’s safe to assume that Arenanet has some immaculately cohesive vision for Guild Wars 2, where there is nothing left to add or take away, that none of us lowly mortals could ever comprehend, when there is so much evidence to the contrary.
I"m pretty sure that game designers (not the guys who just program or do graphics, but those responsible for actual design), actually do have some sort of vision, certainly starting out. But that doesn’t really apply to this conversation. What does apply is this…
Every single person who plays the game sees it from their point of view…that is they see the trees, but not the forest. They suggest changes, but they don’t necessarily have the vision or experience to see where those changes will lead. The same might or might not be true for a game designer, but a game designer is generally less self-interested. Their interest, if they’re any good at it, is the over all health of the game.
So you got guys in the thieves forum who play thieves who cry over every nerf, or make suggestions that would make thieves massively OP. Why? Because they’re only thinking about their game, and their character.
The OP has posted this topic I think this might be the third time and has gotten several people who disagreed with him. He even said so in this OP. He doesn’t understand why people disagree.
I’m not even sure I disagree, I’m just saying that if certain combos aren’t in the game, it’s entirely possible they’re not in the game for a reason. But the OP only wants what he wants…whatever that is.
Someone gives him an example of a combo that could be OP and he says he doesn’t think so. Okay.
The OP is beating a drum about something he wants, but I’m not so sure the OP is experienced enough in game design to see the long term ramifications on every aspect of the game. Of course, it’s not his job to see that. But that doesn’t mean that if he can’t see something it doesn’t exist either.
your objection seems based in some history of his ideas. Im merely looking at it academically. I do beleive that anet probably initially limited combinations because they werent sure how things would pan out, and also for other reasons they have alluded to. I am also not positive that there are no OP stat combos, however, as far as PVE is concerned, i tend to doubt it. Most attacks are avoidable, in this type of system the most OP stat combos already exist, they are the glass cannon types, power prec crit dmg, and cond prec _.
as far as being super tanky, they already have clerics givers and shamans. Since these extremes exist, i doubt that other mixes would break the game.I mean hey the designers can test it, but to be honest, the current system will continue to get bloated and become harder and harder for players to manage. People who want a mix of stats basically have to try to use a simulator. In trying to make it easy, it has become more complex. And really if they actually have certain stat combos that are insanely OP they can just make them uncreatable.
The problem is, there is no PVe in this game…that is, PVe alone. While these stat combos won’t affect SPvP, they may very well affect WvW which will definitely have to be watched.
You don’t really want to see the kittenstorm if they implement this and the WvW crowd get affected, trust me on that. lol
the highest toughness with a secondary in power isnt that impressive, youd have no crits and no crit damage. Im not saying its trash, but its not really stronger than anything else.
Far as saying OP with conditions, is essentially accurate, im not saying this stuff is weak, im saying its not OVER powered. like i said most condition applying is tied to critical hits, Id say probably mesmer would be the craziest with condition and toughness, but the vit wouldnt be that necessary for that build.like i said, do you really think either one of those builds would be stronger than any other statistic build? especially in PVE? is the high hp necro that afraid of getting hit they wouldnt rather have CON toughness prec? its just not overpowered versus builds we already have is all im saying
Can you tell me an OP build we have right now with the existing stuff? zerker mes/war? cleric guard? condi necro? The fact is, all of those builds/stat allocations all have a trade-off between killing power and surviving power. And all of them are counters. The suggestion above is also a good example of an OP build. T/v/h or t/v/H will really be OP on a guard.
Don’t disturb me, I have a cat in me at the moment.
If I could choose my stats, I’d just go on my Guardian and deck her out with Healing Power, Toughness, Vit, go into WvW, and drink the tears of my enemies.
They have enough troubles trying to kill me in Cleric’s armor, even when I have a stat as useless as power. I say it’s useless because my goal was to make a pure defensive / support build, and power’s utterly useless for me with this setup. If I could choose Heal / Tough / Vit, people would talk about how OP it’d be, despite the fact that I’d have literally 0 offensive abilities.
However, part of me wants more combos of attributes, at least. Boon Duration and Condition duration are “relatively new” to affixes, so I’d like to see other combos using those ones. Part of me thinks we should be able to have Heal / Tough / Vit, (Despite the outcry of OP) mainly because we have the “pure offensive” setup of Power, Precision, Crit Damage. I’d like pure defensive. I -guess- giver’s could be considered defensive.
Point is: We have foods that are like “Turn X% of Y stat into Z stat” so glass Cannons could potentially become even MORE cannon, and bunkers would become even MORE bunkers. People are already complaining about the effectiveness of Glass Cannons and Bunkers already, and free stat allocation would make it even worse.
you’d be pretty hard for me to kill, but honestly, who cares, you wouldnt even kill berserker builds. I can just walk around you and kill the targets i need to kill, like guild lords, veteran supervisors, complete objectives, etc. I just busted out the calculator, and power is a direct multiplier in the dmg formula. this means that if you lower your power by 30% you lower your dmg by 30%, so yeah you have 162% more power using clerics than if you didnt have clerics, which means youd essentially do 38% less damage than you are used to doing if you got rid of that useless power. Who exactly are you a threat too like that? no one has to fight you. You flip this to pve, youd be doing substantially less damage than every one else, you could be doing decent support, however people with givers have similar survivability with better boons, a guard with knights, is giving might stacks for similar survivability with every crit. Are you really better than any other build? im not saying it serves no purpose, but giving up that power stat changes your effectiveness greatly. even your retaliation is weaker.
you basically are sacrificing your ability to kill anything and increasing your survivability, in a game with no forced taunts, and ability based short duration CC, how are you going to force people to actually fight you if you are not a threat?
the highest toughness with a secondary in power isnt that impressive, youd have no crits and no crit damage. Im not saying its trash, but its not really stronger than anything else.
Far as saying OP with conditions, is essentially accurate, im not saying this stuff is weak, im saying its not OVER powered. like i said most condition applying is tied to critical hits, Id say probably mesmer would be the craziest with condition and toughness, but the vit wouldnt be that necessary for that build.like i said, do you really think either one of those builds would be stronger than any other statistic build? especially in PVE? is the high hp necro that afraid of getting hit they wouldnt rather have CON toughness prec? its just not overpowered versus builds we already have is all im saying
Can you tell me an OP build we have right now with the existing stuff? zerker mes/war? cleric guard? condi necro? The fact is, all of those builds/stat allocations all have a trade-off between killing power and surviving power. And all of them are counters. The suggestion above is also a good example of an OP build. T/v/h or t/v/H will really be OP on a guard.
i dont think any build is OP, but i think that at high level play, the builds that focus the most on synergy will be the most effective, due to the fact much damage is avoidable, and a lack of guaranteed agro mechanics.
put it like this, we can all kill any dungeon fairly well with average stats, what overpowered level advantage does one get from having a harder to kill guardian or necro? keeping in mind they are sacrificing their dps or utility in order to do so? (utility would mostly be boon duration at this point) Neither will make any encounter faster, they may make it easier, at the price of being slower. With an average experienced party, it doesnt really need to be an easier.
The real issue is WvW balancing, but to be honest the amount of times a WvW fight comes down to an even match up is rare. Given that thought process id say the most dangerous would probably be the condition/toughness/vit necro, mostly because he still does damage, however in honesty i think the CON/toughness/precsion is more deadly because many more bleeds/weakness/life steal can happen without skill use, he will have less hp, but vitality is only a lead in a race, its not the speed of the runner.
like i said, it wouldnt be weak, but OP? dont think so.
thanks for the feedback everyone!
anyway, i would be happy even if they give us:
1. blank skins
2. slot in soldiers, berserkers, clerics, shamans stones etc.
if freely slotting in
x1 major attribute stone
x2 minor attribute stone
is asking for too much.
thanks for the feedback everyone!
anyway, i would be happy even if they give us:
1. blank skins
2. slot in soldiers, berserkers, clerics, shamans stones etc.if freely slotting in
x1 major attribute stone
x2 minor attribute stoneis asking for too much.
I know that would make you happy. You’ve said it in at least three threads. Just post one thread in the suggestion forum and that’s it. Because making the same thread over and over again, or a thread with the exact same agenda isn’t winning you any support.
It may be that devs will do something like that, unless they have a reason not to, which I suspect is the case. Anyway, good luck to you.
well i seek to know what the official guild wars 2 forum frequenters think.
thank you for sharing your thoughts with us!
i have still to see someone elaborate an over powered build though.
so they say CONition damage/toughness/vitality could make necro over powered.
what i see is just a necro with decent health and defense, high condition damage and low base attack damage. how would that be over powered?
I know that would make you happy. You’ve said it in at least three threads. Just post one thread in the suggestion forum and that’s it. Because making the same thread over and over again, or a thread with the exact same agenda isn’t winning you any support.
It may be that devs will do something like that, unless they have a reason not to, which I suspect is the case. Anyway, good luck to you.
well i seek to know what the official guild wars 2 forum frequenters think.
thank you for sharing your thoughts with us!i have still to see someone elaborate an over powered build though.
so they say CONition damage/toughness/vitality could make necro over powered.
what i see is just a necro with decent health and defense, high condition damage and low base attack damage. how would that be over powered?
I know that would make you happy. You’ve said it in at least three threads. Just post one thread in the suggestion forum and that’s it. Because making the same thread over and over again, or a thread with the exact same agenda isn’t winning you any support.
It may be that devs will do something like that, unless they have a reason not to, which I suspect is the case. Anyway, good luck to you.
The necro is powerful for a couple of reasons. Though he has low armor, he also has the highest health in the game, along with warriors. Bringing his toughness high, at the same time as bringing his condition damage high, would make him almost impossible to kill. Because you’d end up with a character that was high healh, taking damage like he had heavy armor, with a second health bar like death shroud, who could condition damage you down really fast with poisons (which also slow your ability to heal), bleeding (which can do a lot of damage), life steal, there’s so much a necro could do.
Because of their high health, giving them power, toughness and condition damage could almost make a necro unstoppable.
well i seek to know what the official guild wars 2 forum frequenters think.
thank you for sharing your thoughts with us!i have still to see someone elaborate an over powered build though.
so they say CONition damage/toughness/vitality could make necro over powered.
what i see is just a necro with decent health and defense, high condition damage and low base attack damage. how would that be over powered?
I know that would make you happy. You’ve said it in at least three threads. Just post one thread in the suggestion forum and that’s it. Because making the same thread over and over again, or a thread with the exact same agenda isn’t winning you any support.
It may be that devs will do something like that, unless they have a reason not to, which I suspect is the case. Anyway, good luck to you.
The necro is powerful for a couple of reasons. Though he has low armor, he also has the highest health in the game, along with warriors. Bringing his toughness high, at the same time as bringing his condition damage high, would make him almost impossible to kill. Because you’d end up with a character that was high healh, taking damage like he had heavy armor, with a second health bar like death shroud, who could condition damage you down really fast with poisons (which also slow your ability to heal), bleeding (which can do a lot of damage), life steal, there’s so much a necro could do.
Because of their high health, giving them power, toughness and condition damage could almost make a necro unstoppable.
but there is already a CON toughness precision set, so they have already made the tough high condition dmg type, in fact it will do more dmg and have better long term dmg to survivability than con toughness vit, because vitality is only the starter. To be honest i dont think they have done this because they got other things they want to do with that dev time, but at some point the current armor system is going to be problematic. Most MMOs end up having to do various things such as armor storing npcs etc. Its something they will have to deal with eventually. There is a lot of excess space being wasted in armor inventory.
well i seek to know what the official guild wars 2 forum frequenters think.
thank you for sharing your thoughts with us!i have still to see someone elaborate an over powered build though.
so they say CONition damage/toughness/vitality could make necro over powered.
what i see is just a necro with decent health and defense, high condition damage and low base attack damage. how would that be over powered?
I know that would make you happy. You’ve said it in at least three threads. Just post one thread in the suggestion forum and that’s it. Because making the same thread over and over again, or a thread with the exact same agenda isn’t winning you any support.
It may be that devs will do something like that, unless they have a reason not to, which I suspect is the case. Anyway, good luck to you.
The necro is powerful for a couple of reasons. Though he has low armor, he also has the highest health in the game, along with warriors. Bringing his toughness high, at the same time as bringing his condition damage high, would make him almost impossible to kill. Because you’d end up with a character that was high healh, taking damage like he had heavy armor, with a second health bar like death shroud, who could condition damage you down really fast with poisons (which also slow your ability to heal), bleeding (which can do a lot of damage), life steal, there’s so much a necro could do.
Because of their high health, giving them power, toughness and condition damage could almost make a necro unstoppable.
but there is already a CON toughness precision set, so they have already made the tough high condition dmg type, in fact it will do more dmg and have better long term dmg to survivability than con toughness vit, because vitality is only the starter. To be honest i dont think they have done this because they got other things they want to do with that dev time, but at some point the current armor system is going to be problematic. Most MMOs end up having to do various things such as armor storing npcs etc. Its something they will have to deal with eventually. There is a lot of excess space being wasted in armor inventory.
But conditions don’t benefit at all from precision. That splits some of the effects. Many of the skills that do condition damage, however, will benefit from power.
The necro is powerful for a couple of reasons. Though he has low armor, he also has the highest health in the game, along with warriors. Bringing his toughness high, at the same time as bringing his condition damage high, would make him almost impossible to kill. Because you’d end up with a character that was high healh, taking damage like he had heavy armor, with a second health bar like death shroud, who could condition damage you down really fast with poisons (which also slow your ability to heal), bleeding (which can do a lot of damage), life steal, there’s so much a necro could do.
Because of their high health, giving them power, toughness and condition damage could almost make a necro unstoppable.
thanks for the detailed elaboration! i appreciate that!
but let’s look at
CONdition damage / power / toughness
say the necro equips everything with this prefix
x6 armor: helm (& breather) shoulders chest pants gloves boots
x6 trinket: back amulet ring ring accessory accessory
weapon: 2-handed (or main hand, offhand)
base vitality of 916 gives the necro a health of 18,372
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health
well, before any other runes bonuses or WvW bonuses or food if playing in PvE or WvW and before any traits bonuses also.
lets just look at sPvP stats since there is a quick calculator for it.
i.e. http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/
using staff weapon,
before traits, sigils, runes, foods, wvw bonuses, etc:
attack: 2,671
defense: 2,480
health: 18,372
condition damage: 923
necrotic grasp: 419
mark of blood: 189, x3 bleed 2,128 over 8 seconds
chillblains: 314, poison 1,058 over 6 seconds
putrid mark: 756
reaper’s mark: 157
anyway these numbers are base numbers, without traits and other bonuses etc so the numbers would be probably higher.
but it just conditions damage right? i.e. bleed and poison. still need some time to kill off someone. if people have decent condition removers they would have survived through it. well, that is what i think at least.
and how good is a defense rating of 2,480 by the way? i know some thieves still can easily burst down my sPvP mesmer with a defense rating of 2.9k if I am not paying enough attention to them.
but at some point the current armor system is going to be problematic.
eh what do you mean by problematic? do you mean storage space? i deal with it by buying more character slots though haha.
one character for one armor set, one build.
that’s just me i guess.
But conditions don’t benefit at all from precision. That splits some of the effects. Many of the skills that do condition damage, however, will benefit from power.
well, some necro traits benefit from precision, and some weapon sigils too.
well i seek to know what the official guild wars 2 forum frequenters think.
thank you for sharing your thoughts with us!i have still to see someone elaborate an over powered build though.
so they say CONition damage/toughness/vitality could make necro over powered.
what i see is just a necro with decent health and defense, high condition damage and low base attack damage. how would that be over powered?
I know that would make you happy. You’ve said it in at least three threads. Just post one thread in the suggestion forum and that’s it. Because making the same thread over and over again, or a thread with the exact same agenda isn’t winning you any support.
It may be that devs will do something like that, unless they have a reason not to, which I suspect is the case. Anyway, good luck to you.
The necro is powerful for a couple of reasons. Though he has low armor, he also has the highest health in the game, along with warriors. Bringing his toughness high, at the same time as bringing his condition damage high, would make him almost impossible to kill. Because you’d end up with a character that was high healh, taking damage like he had heavy armor, with a second health bar like death shroud, who could condition damage you down really fast with poisons (which also slow your ability to heal), bleeding (which can do a lot of damage), life steal, there’s so much a necro could do.
Because of their high health, giving them power, toughness and condition damage could almost make a necro unstoppable.
but there is already a CON toughness precision set, so they have already made the tough high condition dmg type, in fact it will do more dmg and have better long term dmg to survivability than con toughness vit, because vitality is only the starter. To be honest i dont think they have done this because they got other things they want to do with that dev time, but at some point the current armor system is going to be problematic. Most MMOs end up having to do various things such as armor storing npcs etc. Its something they will have to deal with eventually. There is a lot of excess space being wasted in armor inventory.
But conditions don’t benefit at all from precision. That splits some of the effects. Many of the skills that do condition damage, however, will benefit from power.
precision is the hidden condition stat, almost every class has a condition that procs on critical.
warrior bleed 33% chance on crit
engineer
33% chance to burn 30% chance to bleed
rng
chance to bleed on crit
ele
30% chance to burn
arcane precision with fire or earth element
necro
66% chance to bleed.
mesmer
illusions bleed on critical hit
along with sigil of earth.
precision and condition dmg is basically the burstier condition build.
only guardian and theif dont have traits that tied critical hits to condition application.
The reason why I seldom get into the numbers game, is because I’m not really good enough at them to prove a point. Which is why I usually let the numbers people speak.
All I really know is that these things aren’t in the game. As I said before, I don’t know why. I proposed a theory as to what might be the case. I simply don’t know enough to argue for or against.
I’ll have to leave it to those more knowledgeable than me. I am not, and will never be, a min/maxer. I just don’t care enough about the numbers. I care about whether I can clear content with the spec/skills I have.
I’d die for some Power/Vitality/Healing Power armor/trinkets
Dear A-net: Please nerf rock. Paper is fine
~Sincerely, Scissors
~Sincerely, Scissors
I’d die for some Power/Vitality/Healing Power armor/trinkets
hmmm y u want that?
as in
POW/vit/heal ?
I’d die for some Power/Vitality/Healing Power armor/trinkets
hmmm y u want that?
as inPOW/vit/heal ?
It’s a lot better than the one we have now imo, pow/tough/heal (at least for my guardian). Toughness is nice of course but it doesn’t protect against conditions and guardians have a rather small health pool.
Dear A-net: Please nerf rock. Paper is fine
~Sincerely, Scissors
~Sincerely, Scissors
I’d just like to see stats on trait allocation untied from the traits.
i.e have a separate screen you allocate your trait stat points. Have the placement limited to what you can do at x level now. No allocating more than 100 stats to something until lev 40, then max of 200 until 60, then max of 300 from 60-80.
It’s a lot better than the one we have now imo, pow/tough/heal (at least for my guardian). Toughness is nice of course but it doesn’t protect against conditions and guardians have a rather small health pool.
ah i see. fair enough.
I’d just like to see stats on trait allocation untied from the traits.
i.e have a separate screen you allocate your trait stat points. Have the placement limited to what you can do at x level now. No allocating more than 100 stats to something until lev 40, then max of 200 until 60, then max of 300 from 60-80.
hmmm but why would you want that? O_O
what is wrong with the current stats traits system oh?
it has been a while.
i am sure there are people who wants freedom of stats allocation.
lets hear them out!
i have been asking for this since 2006.
it was finally realized in 2013.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-guild-wars-2-in-2013/
In addition, we’ll also improve the functionality of legendaries, allowing you to set their stats when out of combat to any stat combo available, so you don’t need to transmute stat changes for legendaries. Legendary gear will remain with the same tier of stats as ascended gear and will not be made more powerful than other gear, it will simply be slightly more convenient since it will no longer need transmutations to change stats.
yes! freedom of stats allocation!
thanks for listening!
“any stat combo available” almost certainly refers to “stat combos that already exist on gear”
“any stat combo available” almost certainly refers to “stat combos that already exist on gear”
yes, i realized that it is a different matter, but at least it will be possible to change the stats (even though it is still limited to existing stats combinations) of gear (even though it is limited to legendary gear) now.
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