Guild Wars 2

“We have never said there would be no vertical progression. We do intend to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.”

when you add up statements like “we don’t make grindy games”, “cosmetic only grind”, “we want to reward all gameplay preferences equally”, “focus on zero grind” and do something completely different, it causes resentment towards the development team and conflict among players. i’m sure there were good intentions for the game that didn’t seem profitable or retention worthy, so i’d like to quickly give some tips on how you can stay true to your words while still making money and keeping players logging in.

simplified description below…

step 1- refocus on gear acquisition with zero grind in mind and stick to it. keep legendaries hard to get because of the new stat change feature and ultra fancy looks.

step 2- offer a majority of the weapon and armor skins currently in game on the gem store as well so players have the option to buy them outright. players will still have the ability to earn all gear and skins through pure gameplay.

step 3- main gear progression through a greatly expanded infusion system and make it the go-to thing that players have to “work hard” for or “work hard” crafting. you don’t have runes or sigils beyond level 60, so this would be a great opportunity to develop an interesting secondary stats and effects system.

following these three steps will allow all players to have the gear stats they want easily, and getting a bunch of different armor types would be more desirable and less distressing. regular gameplay becomes way more rewarding through improved loot drops and acquisition. gem sales would boost because of the plethora of cosmetic options available. players will happily log in more to chase after carrots on sticks so they can continuously upgrade and change their gear. players will still have the ability to earn all of these rewards from regular gameplay and not have their time and effort diminished. also, these types of systems would be alt friendlier and encouraging. win-win!

moral of the story, stick to your words and make it so everyone can have their cake and eat it too.

thanks for reading

edit- ascended gear should be far easier to craft and sellable on the bltc as well.

generalization of responses to come:
1. Hahaha we got your monies!
2. It wasn’t set in stone.
3. Yes, they should have done what they said.

You guys want to hold ArenaNet to quotes taken a year ago or worse yet a manifesto taken five years.

But what if new information comes to light? What if the majority of players like to grind?

You wouldn’t want your doctor or stockbrooker using outdated information.Why should ArenaNet be any different?

You can very well hold ArenaNet accountable for what they say because what they say about their product before purchase should have a direct impact on who purchases it and why. That’s what marketing and advertising is…

Peetee.9406:

You guys want to hold ArenaNet to quotes taken a year ago or worse yet a manifesto taken five years.

But what if new information comes to light? What if the majority of players like to grind?

You wouldn’t want your doctor or stockbrooker using outdated information.Why should ArenaNet be any different?

Yes, as a customer who likes the devs and game enough to spend roughly $800 to date, I want them to keep their integrity by sticking to their words.

Don’t act as if it’s not possible for them to follow through with their original design intent while catering to all types of players. Besides, if you follow the idea, players who like to “grind” will be able to for infusion upgrades and for the various forms of currency to obtain what they want. “Grinding” would still present, but there would be more available options that appeal to various gamers.

For context, the entire Q/A:

The Question

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”
That was the quote that sold a lot of people on Guild Wars 2. For years we waited for a game that would give us horizontal progression, not vertical progression. We were told that you were building the game around that.
Then, only a few short months after release, a new higher-stat gear grind was added. Why? Why cater to a sub-section of your playerbase who are cannot stop being, for lack of a better term, WoW-minded when it comes to progression? Why go back on your word to a loyal playerbase that supported you guys for so long?
Also, you stated there was a gap between Legendary and Exotic progression. There was no stat gap, so I can only assume you meant a time gap. But there was a filler — unique Exotics that were harder to get than the normal, base ones. Please clarify what you meant by that gap.
Thank you.

Chris W Answer

Thanks for taking the time to post your questions. Mike O will respond to the top question and I will respond to the bottom section.
Ascended Gear is designed to fill the ‘Time’ gap in regard to the distance between exotic and Legendary in terms of progression and in retrospect would have been better to have been rolled out pre launch.
I would also like add that we have never said there would be no vertical progression. We do intent to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.
Please understand that we see the community as a ‘whole’ and therefore are not intending to design again for one specific type of player over another. This is a misconception and one that is not promoted by the team. We will continue to develop the game for the community as a whole offering game play that caters to lots of different types of players in a unified approach that will evolve over time based on feedback and the direction the team as a whole wants to take.

Mike O Answer

Hi! I’ll respond to the top part since it’s a quote from me.
Obviously the key phrase I’m going to point you to in that quote is, “if someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it”. That really is the litmus test we’ve used. That’s why, at ship, we gave better stats to exotic gear and didn’t give better stats to legendary gear.
More generally, I hope we’ve been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was. That’s why GW2 shipped with a higher level cap, and with a hard separation between PvE and PvP. In GW1 we never advanced the level cap through four campaigns/expansions. The game design didn’t allow for it. But GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.
That’s why we’ve always said that GW2 rewards players through both progression and collection, whereas GW1 primarily rewarded through collection. Presumably players aren’t shocked that GW2 rewards through progression, since it has a level 80 cap.
I wonder if the core sentiment is more this: It’s only been two-and-a-half months! We don’t even all have exotics yet, and already you’re introducing another tier. Is this the start of a power progression curve that I’ll never be able to keep up with?
I certainly appreciate that worry. I myself don’t want a constant struggle, as exists in some other games, to keep my equipment viable.
Then we’re left with a balancing act. Some progression is ok, but pushing players onto gear treadmill isn’t ok and isn’t what the game is about.
So I would ask you to judge us by details, and not by making slippery-slope arguments. We introduced a ton of new content in November, and the sum total of new progression rewards we added to go with it provided a 5-10% stat increase in 2 of 12 slots. I hope you’ll agree that that kind of very shallow and gradual progression does not force people onto a gear treadmill.
I think it’s important for GW2 to be able to have this kind of gradual progression. Of course we made some mistakes with the way we introduced ascended gear. (See ChrisW’s answers for details.) But those are addressable issues. I don’t think they invalidate the fundamental concept that GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game.

This all comes back to what people consider a grind… Honestly all the stuff for ascended things can be gotten easily without grinding by doing normal stuff. I’m sitting on enough mats to make at least 8 ascended weapons today without even having tried to farm the stuff all the while only playing maybe an 1-3 hours a day and half of that is just idle chit chat (you can ask anyone in my guild, I’m about the laziest kittener there is out there, I don’t farm much if any at all, I don’t do WvW, I have never set foot in a dungeon in over a year now). I would hardly call that a grind since it fits in basic gameplay and doesn’t take an excessive amount of effort or even doing the exact same thing over and over again… They said they were going to make it grind free… and it basically is if you don’t sit there drooling over the stuff every day and just work slowly toward it as you play the game. The problem is people turn things into a grind because they have a hard time waiting a couple extra days… that’s why I personally believe they put the time gating stuff in so people wouldn’t have to grind and they can work at a normal pace towards the reward… Just because you have to go out there and do a bit of farming or a few world bosses/jumping puzzles doesn’t make it a grind… you make it a grind by forcing yourself to work way harder and faster at acquiring things than they had meant for you to.

So, reading those quotes, they really do intend to create a gradual but constant power growth. For example, they fully expect to one day raise the level cap. In doing so, all that shiny ascended gear will cease to be the pinnacle of gear and you’ll need to suit back up again. Only your legendaries are safe.

Peetee.9406:

What if the majority of players like to grind?

If I liked grinding I would buy a game that is based on it (and there are tons of grind-based MMOs), and not one that promotes itself as the opposite. But maybe thats just me.

We, who are against ascended tier gear lost and we just need to get over it. It’s a different game now, with a different grindier philosophy. I’m willing to bet that most of us moved on (I sure as hell did) and we just stick around to keep tabs on any changes. I’m sure laughing as things get worse and worse, though.

Peetee.9406:

You guys want to hold ArenaNet to quotes taken a year ago or worse yet a manifesto taken five years.

But what if new information comes to light? What if the majority of players like to grind?

You wouldn’t want your doctor or stockbrooker using outdated information.Why should ArenaNet be any different?

Yes, I would really like Anet to behave as a company with integrity that honors their word. And, perhaps you don’t understand what a manifesto is. It is a guiding document and I would expect the results we see in the game to follow the DNA of the manifesto. I will admit that that certainly isn’t what we find with Anet and their manifesto.

And, I don’t suppose that the majority of players in GW2 want to grind, not if the forums are any indication. It (gear grind) itself is an outdated idea. Anet should have used the outcry by a few demanding gear progression as a teachable moment. Sadly, they didn’t.

Clockwork Bard.3105:

So, reading those quotes, they really do intend to create a gradual but constant power growth. For example, they fully expect to one day raise the level cap. In doing so, all that shiny ascended gear will cease to be the pinnacle of gear and you’ll need to suit back up again. Only your legendaries are safe.

If I was an MMO developer right now; I’d make sure my game would be alt-friendly with minimal grinds. So this way I could bite a chunk out of Arenanets customers.

People keep using phrases like “honor their word”. Like this was some kind of holy writ. Something that Anet decided they would abandon lightly. But no one really knows.

First Anet is a company comprised of many people. Like all such companies, as people leave and new people come in, things change. Because everyone has different visions. Games aren’t science, they’re a form of art. You can’t always predict where art will go.

There are times as a writer where I’ve submitted a proposal and the end product was quite different (in a couple of cases drastically different) than what was originally presented. It happens. Not because I’m a liar. Not because I’m not a man of my word.

It’s because I tried something that didn’t work quite the way I thought it would. And then I thought of something that I felt made the piece better. Maybe more suited to the audience I was writing for, maybe more plausible. Maybe just more entertaining from my point of view. Indeed, I can’t write from anyone else’s point of view.

So when Anet released the game, the max level gear was it. Done. Exotics were top level and it’s all we could get. And people weren’t staying with the game. We know that because Anet said it, but also because of stuff posted on the forum. I know it anecdotally from my own observations.

So Anet gave it the old college try and saw it wasn’t working. They made changes to try to bring players back to the game, or keep players that were playing the game. Unfortunately, that left other players out in the cold.

For Anet it was a lose/lose situation. Stick to your guns, do something you see isn’t working, or change it to the best of your ability within time and budget constraints to make it work. That was their choice.

Is this about integrity? What about the integrity to those who enjoy the game and wouldn’t have had anyone to play with if they’d kept going as they were?

I’m sorry but all this hyperbole about betrayal and honor and sticking to your word is just something I’m having trouble comprehending.

In before responses like:

“It’s not grind, I was able to craft all my ascended gear right away using the 5000 gold I had farmed up!!”

and

“If you want to have the best gear, you need to put the effort in!”

Swagger.1459:

“We have never said there would be no vertical progression. We do intend to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.”

when you add up statements like “we don’t make grindy games”, “cosmetic only grind”, “we want to reward all gameplay preferences equally”, “focus on zero grind” and do something completely different, it causes resentment towards the development team and conflict among players. i’m sure there were good intentions for the game that didn’t seem profitable or retention worthy, so i’d like to quickly give some tips on how you can stay true to your words while still making money and keeping players logging in.

simplified description below…

step 1- refocus on gear acquisition with zero grind in mind and stick to it. keep legendaries hard to get because of the new stat change feature and ultra fancy looks.

step 2- offer a majority of the weapon and armor skins currently in game on the gem store as well so players have the option to buy them outright. players will still have the ability to earn all gear and skins through pure gameplay.

step 3- main gear progression through a greatly expend infusion system and make it the go-to thing that players have to “work hard” for or “work hard” crafting. you don’t have runes or sigils beyond level 60, so this would be a great opportunity to develop an interesting secondary stats and effects system.

following these three steps will allow all players to have the gear stats they want easily, and getting a bunch of different armor types would be more desirable and less distressing. regular gameplay becomes way more rewarding through improved loot drops and acquisition. gem sales would boost because of the plethora of cosmetic options available. players will happily log in more to chase after carrots on sticks so they can continuously upgrade and change their gear. players will still have the ability to earn all of these rewards from regular gameplay and not have their time and effort diminished. also, these types of systems would be alt friendlier and encouraging. win-win!

moral of the story, stick to your words and make it so everyone can have their cake and eat it too.

thanks for reading

edit- ascended gear should be far easier to craft and sellable on the bltc as well.

No no no OP, you’ve got it all wrong.

Anet can do no wrong (unless of course we’re talking about things that REALLY matter, like the server transfer and guest buttons being too close together, right, my good forum friend? ).

Also you just don’t understand them. When they said “We have never said there would be no vertical progression. We do intend to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.”

they actually meant

“We want to introduce vertical progression with a very very grindy new tier of gear”. Gosh, you really didn’t get that? What are you, stupid or something? It’s SO obvious!

What’s funny is that people are thinking about the wrong definition of grind. They’re not saying new gear that will take a lot of effort to get. They’re talking about the endless treadmill of raiding endlessly for a tier of gear only to have that tossed as new tiers come in ad nauseum.

Two definitions of grind. They’re living up to the promise based on the definition that relates to the endless cycle of gearing and re-gearing quite well. Yes, it’ll take some time to get the ascended items. But you’ll never have to worry about throwing it away when hyper-ascended is released in three months (or something equally silly).

The tier grind is non-existent here, which is what they promised and as it should be. They never said no time-sinks though. Time-sinks are necessary for the health of the game. If you did it all in a week you’d be bored and wander off in a hurry.

Peetee.9406:

You guys want to hold ArenaNet to quotes taken a year ago or worse yet a manifesto taken five years.

But what if new information comes to light? What if the majority of players like to grind?

You wouldn’t want your doctor or stockbrooker using outdated information.Why should ArenaNet be any different?

You wouldn’t like your political party to change their manifesto sometime after the election, would you? Logic.

VOLKON.1290:

What’s funny is that people are thinking about the wrong definition of grind. They’re not saying new gear that will take a lot of effort to get. They’re talking about the endless treadmill of raiding endlessly for a tier of gear only to have that tossed as new tiers come in ad nauseum.

Two definitions of grind. They’re living up to the promise based on the definition that relates to the endless cycle of gearing and re-gearing quite well. Yes, it’ll take some time to get the ascended items. But you’ll never have to worry about throwing it away when hyper-ascended is released in three months (or something equally silly).

The tier grind is non-existent here, which is what they promised and as it should be. They never said no time-sinks though. Time-sinks are necessary for the health of the game. If you did it all in a week you’d be bored and wander off in a hurry.

This isn’t the case actually. What they introduced was not a final power level of gear with ascended. Gear or tiers itself really makes no difference. What they added was vertical progression with a low power curve. If the first year is any guide, that power curve will be ~10% power increase per year. They said they had no plans for an additional tier of gear and would carry VP forward through infusions to the existing tier (cf. the AMA).

It is VP itself that violates the promises of the pre-release marketing. VP is about non-optional (power) treadmills that add no value to a game for those who recognize that the emperor is naked. No doubt some will take issue with the non-optional claim around the low power curve. If you are tempted, let’s consider adding 10% more fat to your body each year IRL. If this happened, all of us would recognize intuitively that if we didn’t hop on the treadmill, we’d soon be a hutt. Sadly, on these forums, people often lack the ability of logical inference around vertical progression.

VOLKON.1290:

What’s funny is that people are thinking about the wrong definition of grind. They’re not saying new gear that will take a lot of effort to get. They’re talking about the endless treadmill of raiding endlessly for a tier of gear only to have that tossed as new tiers come in ad nauseum.

Two definitions of grind. They’re living up to the promise based on the definition that relates to the endless cycle of gearing and re-gearing quite well. Yes, it’ll take some time to get the ascended items. But you’ll never have to worry about throwing it away when hyper-ascended is released in three months (or something equally silly).

The tier grind is non-existent here, which is what they promised and as it should be. They never said no time-sinks though. Time-sinks are necessary for the health of the game. If you did it all in a week you’d be bored and wander off in a hurry.

This is the best statement on this whole thread. I read what ANET wrote before the game came, I read the manifesto, and the game I got fits into that.

Ascended gear doesn’t fit a grind. I have played games that were a grind. So far I have leveled one crafting profession up, made one weapon so far and I am almost done with a second one. The nice thing is I don’t have to hurry, because there isn’t another tier coming in a few months. My exotics allow me to play all the content in the game without any problems. I still log in hit a couple of boss events, do some dungeons (because I enjoy them) run around on alts with my guildies. And guess what, my materials just happen to show up playing the game the way I want. Who would have guessed that.

The problem I see here on the forums is this. There are a lot of people that were looking for the perfect game that fit their style of play. They thought is was GW2 based on some things ANET said. Well it wasn’t, and now they don’t even play the game any more but come onto the forums and just dog everything that comes along, or bring up the same argument over and over for some reason. If the argument wasn’t valid then, guess what, it still isn’t valid now.

I personally think that GW2 is a great game, there are things I don’t agree with in it, there are things that I love about it, some things are ok, but the main thing is I enjoy playing it, I enjoy getting content as often as we do (whether I like some of it or not, we are still getting it), I enjoy having something to work towards (Ascended Weapons, Armor, Legendaries) that I don’t have to worry about hurrying to get (the grind) since it isn’t something I need, just something I want. I know lots of people won’t agree with this, but this is my opinion of the game.

Vayne.8563:

People keep using phrases like “honor their word”. Like this was some kind of holy writ. Something that Anet decided they would abandon lightly. But no one really knows.

First Anet is a company comprised of many people. Like all such companies, as people leave and new people come in, things change. Because everyone has different visions. Games aren’t science, they’re a form of art. You can’t always predict where art will go.

There are times as a writer where I’ve submitted a proposal and the end product was quite different (in a couple of cases drastically different) than what was originally presented. It happens. Not because I’m a liar. Not because I’m not a man of my word.

It’s because I tried something that didn’t work quite the way I thought it would. And then I thought of something that I felt made the piece better. Maybe more suited to the audience I was writing for, maybe more plausible. Maybe just more entertaining from my point of view. Indeed, I can’t write from anyone else’s point of view.

So when Anet released the game, the max level gear was it. Done. Exotics were top level and it’s all we could get. And people weren’t staying with the game. We know that because Anet said it, but also because of stuff posted on the forum. I know it anecdotally from my own observations.

So Anet gave it the old college try and saw it wasn’t working. They made changes to try to bring players back to the game, or keep players that were playing the game. Unfortunately, that left other players out in the cold.

For Anet it was a lose/lose situation. Stick to your guns, do something you see isn’t working, or change it to the best of your ability within time and budget constraints to make it work. That was their choice.

Is this about integrity? What about the integrity to those who enjoy the game and wouldn’t have had anyone to play with if they’d kept going as they were?

I’m sorry but all this hyperbole about betrayal and honor and sticking to your word is just something I’m having trouble comprehending.

Comprehending the perceptions should not be that hard. All of the pre launch information was advertising for the game. People spent money based on their expectations for the game. Those expectations were based on the advertising. If a game evolves away from what was advertised (and this one has), people are going to perceive that what is being delivered is no longer what was advertised. This is going to generate negative feelings toward the company. And yes, companies that fail to honor their advertising lose face, which is exactly what has happened.

Your analogy about a writing project is not applicable, unless you advertised to potential customers that the finished product would have features x, y and z and in fact at press did not have x, y and z. I somehow doubt that was the case, because it would make your project different than every other book, short story, or play out there. One and done product purchases like books are not a good comparison for an MMO, anyway.

@IndigoSundown,

I don’t see how the game doesn’t fit what was advertised. This is one of the things I was trying to talk about in my post above. In my opinion, and many others like me, we got what was advertised to us. We aren’t blind and understand the advertisments differently then others such as yourself.

I see a game with little grind (as promised), very little VP (ascended is such a small creep can it really be true VP), and content being added on a very regular bases. Guess what, those meet my expectations based on the advertising of the game. So there are two sides to the coin, and the saying “you can’t please them all” fits this situation very well.

There is a very good number of players “still playing the game, and started at the beginning” that understood the advertising and the game still fits.

I know this statement will get me in trouble but at this point its fine if it does…..

I dont think Guildwars 2 as a game has a direction. I think they have so many teams working in so many directions they have no clue whats really going on. I think one manger says A another manger says B and a third manger says C. Then its up to the players and the company to decide what to trust and what not to trust.

Its like the LFG tool they added one official communication said selling spots in it was a ban able offence (I think it was twitter). Then someone else came out and said it was completely ok to sell spots as long as you don’t exploit the dungeon in anyway(I believe this was said on Reddit). Half the time one side of the company does not know what the other side of the company is doing.

+1 to both VOLKON and Hjorje, well said.

Dear ladies and gents,

You all can negotiate and spin developer wording all you want, but the basic premise here is that things can be done better to achieve goals that a good for the players, developers and long term health of the game.

Thanks

Swagger.1459:

Dear ladies and gents,

You all can negotiate and spin developer wording all you want, but the basic premise here is that things can be done better to achieve goals that a good for the players, developers and long term health of the game.

Thanks

Now this I can agree upon. I think there are things that can be done a lot better in the game, but using the developers wording for before the game was released to justify the reason someone doesn’t play the game now really doesn’t work. But Swagger summed everything up nicely, +1

Swagger.1459:

Peetee.9406:

You guys want to hold ArenaNet to quotes taken a year ago or worse yet a manifesto taken five years.

But what if new information comes to light? What if the majority of players like to grind?

You wouldn’t want your doctor or stockbrooker using outdated information.Why should ArenaNet be any different?

Yes, as a customer who likes the devs and game enough to spend roughly $800 to date, I want them to keep their integrity by sticking to their words.

Don’t act as if it’s not possible for them to follow through with their original design intent while catering to all types of players. Besides, if you follow the idea, players who like to “grind” will be able to for infusion upgrades and for the various forms of currency to obtain what they want. “Grinding” would still present, but there would be more available options that appeal to various gamers.

I’ve spent roughly $1600 on this game, don’t mind the vertical progression or grind. Tell me more about how entitled you are because you’ve spent a lot of money.

Viking Jorun.5413:

I’ve spent roughly $1600 on this game, don’t mind the vertical progression or grind. Tell me more about how entitled you are because you’ve spent a lot of money.

Holy kitten.

Can I ask why?

Hjorje.9453:

@IndigoSundown,

I don’t see how the game doesn’t fit what was advertised. This is one of the things I was trying to talk about in my post above. In my opinion, and many others like me, we got what was advertised to us. We aren’t blind and understand the advertisments differently then others such as yourself.

I see a game with little grind (as promised), very little VP (ascended is such a small creep can it really be true VP), and content being added on a very regular bases. Guess what, those meet my expectations based on the advertising of the game. So there are two sides to the coin, and the saying “you can’t please them all” fits this situation very well.

There is a very good number of players “still playing the game, and started at the beginning” that understood the advertising and the game still fits.

The game changed its approach to BiS gear in November of 2012. Nothing in the advertising suggested that that change would be incoming. There were statements in the advertising that suggested the way BiS gear was obtained at launch was intended. If someone bought the game because of that aspect of the advertising, they’re going to perceive the change in a negative light, and they’re going to think the advertising was misleading. You can say the pre-launch advertising fits the game all you like. What you’re really saying is, “The change doesn’t matter to me.” While that is a valid opinion, which you’re welcome to, the two statements are not the same.

Zero Day.2594:

Viking Jorun.5413:

I’ve spent roughly $1600 on this game, don’t mind the vertical progression or grind. Tell me more about how entitled you are because you’ve spent a lot of money.

Holy kitten.

Can I ask why?

That was last year, when I was on a full ride and had no financial obligations and had well over $60,000 in my checking account alone due to family circumstances. Now I’m more financially responsible and generally only drop $20 per month on the game, which actually goes much further than it used to before gem inflation occurred.

Funny story: on the day when Xbox One PR team announced it’d probably only run its games in 720p resolution rather the common today 1080p, some people jumped to its defense by saying that the two-times lower resolution actually looks better than the higher one.

That’s basically the people who defend grind in Guild Wars 2.

“Ordinary MMOs … You have fun tasks that you occasionally get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff … We don’t want that in Guild Wars 2.”

Draco.2806:

Funny story: on the day when Xbox One PR team announced it’d probably only run its games in 720p resolution rather the common today 1080p, some people jumped to its defense by saying that the two-times lower resolution actually looks better than the higher one.

That’s basically the people who defend grind in Guild Wars 2.

---

“Ordinary MMOs … You have fun tasks that you occasionally get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff … We don’t want that in Guild Wars 2.”

Yeah, lol. You don’t have to play at 1080p. Only if you want to because you can access all the games at. 720p!!!!!!!! 1080p barely makes a difference, lol!!!!!!!!!!!

Draco.2806:

Funny story: on the day when Xbox One PR team announced it’d probably only run its games in 720p resolution rather the common today 1080p, some people jumped to its defense by saying that the two-times lower resolution actually looks better than the higher one.

That’s basically the people who defend grind in Guild Wars 2.

---

“Ordinary MMOs … You have fun tasks that you occasionally get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff … We don’t want that in Guild Wars 2.”

Haha, spot on!

Clockwork Bard.3105:

So, reading those quotes, they really do intend to create a gradual but constant power growth. For example, they fully expect to one day raise the level cap. In doing so, all that shiny ascended gear will cease to be the pinnacle of gear and you’ll need to suit back up again. Only your legendaries are safe.

Pretty much

Adding to that, I won’t be surprised when the level cap does rise if current legendaries remain level 80 and require some giant grind to get them up to level 90.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Swagger.1459:

Peetee.9406:

You guys want to hold ArenaNet to quotes taken a year ago or worse yet a manifesto taken five years.

But what if new information comes to light? What if the majority of players like to grind?

You wouldn’t want your doctor or stockbrooker using outdated information.Why should ArenaNet be any different?

Yes, as a customer who likes the devs and game enough to spend roughly $800 to date, I want them to keep their integrity by sticking to their words.

Don’t act as if it’s not possible for them to follow through with their original design intent while catering to all types of players. Besides, if you follow the idea, players who like to “grind” will be able to for infusion upgrades and for the various forms of currency to obtain what they want. “Grinding” would still present, but there would be more available options that appeal to various gamers.

I’ve spent roughly $1600 on this game, don’t mind the vertical progression or grind. Tell me more about how entitled you are because you’ve spent a lot of money.

There is nothing in any of my posts that has anything to do with entitlement and I’m sorry you are reading it that way. The point was that I feel the developers and the game were worth the investment, but they need to make improvements based off of certain statements on fundamental parts of this game.

I’m glad you spent that much and are content

All I can add to this thread is that if you’re grinding, it’s because you choose to grind.

I have no ascended gear. I have no legendary. I still perform well, and I am still able to compete in PvE and WvW (I don’t sPvP, so I have no idea how that would go.) I am having fun without the other stuff. I simply don’t need it.

IF I decide that I want Ascended gear, or a Legendary weapon, then I would be making a conscious decision to get that gear/weapon, and would involve actively pursuing whatever means I needed to take to get it. If that includes grinding, then so be it. I will definitely take the grind they have here over the grind they have elsewhere.

Honestly, if the amount of grind in this game makes you crazy, please stay away from most F2P games. They would cause you to have a coronary.

Clockwork Bard.3105:

So, reading those quotes, they really do intend to create a gradual but constant power growth. For example, they fully expect to one day raise the level cap. In doing so, all that shiny ascended gear will cease to be the pinnacle of gear and you’ll need to suit back up again. Only your legendaries are safe.

interesting point, i never thought of that.

Ashabhi.1365:

All I can add to this thread is that if you’re grinding, it’s because you choose to grind.

I have no ascended gear. I have no legendary. I still perform well, and I am still able to compete in PvE and WvW (I don’t sPvP, so I have no idea how that would go.) I am having fun without the other stuff. I simply don’t need it.

IF I decide that I want Ascended gear, or a Legendary weapon, then I would be making a conscious decision to get that gear/weapon, and would involve actively pursuing whatever means I needed to take to get it. If that includes grinding, then so be it. I will definitely take the grind they have here over the grind they have elsewhere.

Honestly, if the amount of grind in this game makes you crazy, please stay away from most F2P games. They would cause you to have a coronary.

it’s not about choosing/not choosing or needing/not needing ascended gear, it’s about the way it is currently being implemented that contradicts previous design intentions and statements. the main point is that there are better ways to do gear progression that would be beneficial for both developers and players.

Ashabhi.1365:

Honestly, if the amount of grind in this game makes you crazy, please stay away from most F2P games. They would cause you to have a coronary.

I DO stay away from f2p games, which is why I bought this, because Anet promised a different experience. I bought this game under false pretense.

Swagger.1459:

Clockwork Bard.3105:

So, reading those quotes, they really do intend to create a gradual but constant power growth. For example, they fully expect to one day raise the level cap. In doing so, all that shiny ascended gear will cease to be the pinnacle of gear and you’ll need to suit back up again. Only your legendaries are safe.

interesting point, i never thought of that.

Most likely incorrect on legendaries on being safe. Raising the level cap will make them obsolete. The skin is obviously safe, and that will be the defense from every white knight around the world.
They will most likely only remain BIS for a level 80 gear.
It’d be silly for ANet not to make them regrind for their gear since they’re the ones who they’re trying to target the gear grind in the first place.

Vayne.8563:

For Anet it was a lose/lose situation. Stick to your guns, do something you see isn’t working, or change it to the best of your ability within time and budget constraints to make it work. That was their choice.

Your arguments over the manifesto won’t work here given this is a statement made after the game had launched when they introduced ascended items and is crystal clear about no grind. Its kitten ing IMHO especially when combined with the statement about multiple ways of obtaining ascended items which has effectively not even been true since the introduction of ascended accessories (given extremely low drop rate and ludicrous alternate pricing). I didn’t remember Chris W had made this statement and thank the OP for bringing it up.

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

This all comes back to what people consider a grind… Honestly all the stuff for ascended things can be gotten easily without grinding by doing normal stuff. I’m sitting on enough mats to make at least 8 ascended weapons today without even having tried to farm the stuff all the while only playing maybe an 1-3 hours a day and half of that is just idle chit chat (you can ask anyone in my guild, I’m about the laziest kittener there is out there, I don’t farm much if any at all,

Well you must have saved up all the mats throughout a year of playing then because I try and farm as many of the mats I can and it is a grind.

Peetee.9406:

You guys want to hold ArenaNet to quotes taken a year ago or worse yet a manifesto taken five years.

But what if new information comes to light? What if the majority of players like to grind?

You wouldn’t want your doctor or stockbrooker using outdated information.Why should ArenaNet be any different?

No one likes grind, it implies wasting time.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

We, who are against ascended tier gear lost and we just need to get over it. It’s a different game now, with a different grindier philosophy. I’m willing to bet that most of us moved on (I sure as hell did) and we just stick around to keep tabs on any changes. I’m sure laughing as things get worse and worse, though.

That’s the sad truth. Everyone I used to play with already quit, including my brother, and when they ask me about gw2 all they say is “lol wtf, glad I’m out”.

caiomacos.1694:

Peetee.9406:

What if the majority of players like to grind?

If I liked grinding I would buy a game that is based on it (and there are tons of grind-based MMOs), and not one that promotes itself as the opposite. But maybe thats just me.

Yup.

I was excited to hear that a game like this one, or what it was supposed to be, was being released and preordered it for exactly that reason. I had pretty much quit MMOs because I hate the whole grind thing.

Sigh.

You don’t >need< Exotics to do Dungeons (Exotics where meant to be long time goals, but they screw’d that up completely, making it the “standard”)

There are parts in the game that are grindy, and those parts are meant for those who enjoy that type of gameplay. GW2 isn’t grindy, if you don’t want to grind. Compared to other MMOs, they achieved their goal of making a game where grind isn’t needed.

Although, if you really want something that requires grind, then you’re kitten out of luck…

…. And the manifesto-trailer… It feels like they where a bit ignorant (and frankly naive) about how some of the philosophies that they explained in that trailer, when it came to the crunch, might not have been quite possible to achieve.

Either because of a lack of time, or because they would end up damaging other parts of the game too much.

Phadde.7362:

You don’t >need< Exotics to do Dungeons (Exotics where meant to be long time goals, but they screw’d that up completely, making it the “standard”)

Swagger.1459:

it’s not about choosing/not choosing or needing/not needing ascended gear, it’s about the way it is currently being implemented that contradicts previous design intentions and statements. the main point is that there are better ways to do gear progression that would be beneficial for both developers and players.

Phadde.7362:

GW2 isn’t grindy, if you don’t want to grind.

Yes, you can sit in LA chatting with friends. Now, technically speaking, no other game is grindy either if you don’t want to grind.

Phadde.7362:

…. And the manifesto-trailer… It feels like they where a bit ignorant (and frankly naive) about how some of the philosophies that they explained in that trailer, when it came to the crunch, might not have been quite possible to achieve.

Either because of a lack of time, or because they would end up damaging other parts of the game too much.

What the OP quoted however, was not manifesto, but developer statements that have been made after the November 2012 design changes.

1. every mmo has grind
2. people hate pay 2 win
3. casual players = cash flow

Things change. That includes development statements of any kind for any game, project or anything else.

Manifestos can change as well. Sometimes things just go in a different direction.

Perception is also a contributing factor. What one person perceives as true may not be true for another.

Looking at things objectively, I understand why many of you feel as you do thinking that the original statements by developers were not adhered to. When they said those things I am certain they meant to do them. We will never know why or how things changed or even if they did.

Addressing grind, I personally don’t see where grind is necessary to play this game. There are many things anyone can do without having to grind for anything.

There are weapons and armor and achievements that will absolutely require some grinding, but no one has to do these things in order to play the game.

As someone said above, a certain amount of time sinks (grind) are necessary for any game to keep going. Also, there are those people out there, myself included, that enjoy working toward a goal. I don’t mind farming mats because I am working toward a goal. I know that isn’t for everyone, but for some it is great. We don’t look at it as grind, we look at it as a means to an end. So grind to some may not be grind to others. Again, it is a perspective thing.

Concerning statements about the game, I don’t see much of what was in the original statements of the dev and the manifesto as being wrong or misleading. I think this comes from my perception of what was said and my acceptance of change.

Change will always happen. Not accepting that fact, I believe, is unhealthy.

jheryn.8390:

Looking at things objectively, I understand why many of you feel as you do thinking that the original statements by developers were not adhered to.

Again, if you look at the OP post, you can see that the statements addressed there are not the “original” ones, but those made after ascended introduction, that were part of explanations why the change has been made.
And those explanations have never been correct, since the game deviated from them basically from day one.

jheryn.8390:

Change will always happen. Not accepting that fact, I believe, is unhealthy.

Giving an explanation behind a major change, outlining things the devs want to achieve with it, and then not even trying to follow in that direction is a problem, however.

Especially if at the same time you keep claiming that “nothing has really changed” and that “you are still following original desingn goals completely”.

The situation is not unhealthy because the game follows in a direction i dislike (though that is definitely something that worries me personally). The situation is unhealthy because not only we don’t really know what direction devs want to go, but also we can’t even be sure that devs know where they are going.

Astralporing.1957:

jheryn.8390:

Change will always happen. Not accepting that fact, I believe, is unhealthy.

Giving an explanation behind a major change, outlining things the devs want to achieve with it, and then not even trying to follow in that direction is a problem, however.

Especially if at the same time you keep claiming that “nothing has really changed” and that “you are still following original desingn goals completely”.

The situation is not unhealthy because the game follows in a direction i dislike (though that is definitely something that worries me personally). The situation is unhealthy because not only we don’t really know what direction devs want to go, but also we can’t even be sure that devs know where they are going.

I appreciate your views. And I totally get what you are saying, but I didn’t say the situation was unhealthy, I said that not accepting change was unhealthy. I agree that we don’t know what direction things are going and I don’t agree that that is unhealthy. I really don’t want to know what is up next. I like being surprised.

Not only that, with the game just over a year old, things are in their infancy. They are trying new things with this game. Some they will get right and some will suck. Overall, I love the game and am willing to accept that whatever changes they make or whatever they said that may seem to contradict what they actually do, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because overall the game is a lot of fun for me.

I read feedback from devs and they seem to be just as passionate about the game as we are. I am certainly not going to poke sticks at them when I feel they are doing the best they can to make this a great game.

jheryn.8390:

I appreciate your views. And I totally get what you are saying, but I didn’t say the situation was unhealthy, I said that not accepting change was unhealthy.

Why would it be healthy to accept changes for the worse? Of course it’s a matter of opinion in the end. Still …