Guild Wars 2

just did this hear that went against everything i believe in :/

Its the one in iron marches where you “motivate” prisoners by whipping them and the heart guy says you can whip them and fight them if they fight back but don’t kill them “because we aren’t sadists.”

I feel it’s much more sadistic to keep someone alive in chains and work them endlessly by whip rather than to just kill them :S

I don’t really think this is the proper place to discuss aspects of sadism and masochism. Alternatively you can always pick up the chunks of raw ore that they produce and through the into the brazier to get credit.

Of note, its Sadism if you take pleasure out of causing pain or discomfort.

I can’t remember exactly, but those workers are being paid to work, and they’d much rather lie around. You aren’t whipping them directly, a good whip crack in the air will send anybody off in a scurry.

If you would read the NPC dialogs, you would realize that those prisoners are keeping the charr war machine going and are largely responsible for our ability to build siege weapons such as tanks and airships to combat the elder dragons.

At which point do you draw the line on morality, sacrificing Tyria?

Well this presents a moral choice for the characters. As heroes, do we whip and beat the slaves to work harder? Or find an alternate method to complete the task? I like some “grey” areas in games where I have to make a choice. (I tend to see most of everything in terms of black and white) Events like this, I feel, do more to present a Living World, then the Living Story ever will. It shows that everything in the world isn’t all “hunky dory”, and that there are moral issues within the world, that the NPCs, as well as the PCs, are forced to deal with on a daily basis.

Togashi Jack.9531:

I don’t really think this is the proper place to discuss aspects of sadism and masochism. Alternatively you can always pick up the chunks of raw ore that they produce and through the into the brazier to get credit.

Of note, its Sadism if you take pleasure out of causing pain or discomfort.

My post was sarcastic, but you’re right about sadism only being when you take pleasure in the activity.

Something else for you to think about here in this example.

A Charr can become a gladium simply by being the lone survivor of his warband, as others will think him a coward who fled, leaving his warband to die, even if this is not the case. Gladium are treated like kitten, and very well could be thrown in prison and forced labour such as this, simply because “they probably deserve it”. No one is going to stand up for these gladium, because who would stand up for cowards other than those that would want people to defend their own cowardice?

Some of those Charr prisoners could have been guilty of nothing but hopelessly watching the rest of their warband, their friends/family slaughtered before them, then the justice system simply assumes that they were somehow the cause of these deaths. Now this extreme PTSD subject is beaten in a forced labour camp for the rest of their shortened lives.

Moral of the story: Don’t be a spineless gladium.

watchtheshow: they are prisoners, which is why I quoted the text from the heart.

Surbrus.6942:

Something else for you to think about here in this example.

A Charr can become a gladium simply by being the lone survivor of his warband, as others will think him a coward who fled, leaving his warband to die, even if this is not the case. Gladium are treated like kitten, and very well could be thrown in prison and forced labour such as this, simply because “they probably deserve it”. No one is going to stand up for these gladium, because who would stand up for cowards other than those that would want people to defend their own cowardice?

Some of those Charr prisoners could have been guilty of nothing but hopelessly watching the rest of their warband, their friends/family slaughtered before them, then the justice system simply assumes that they were somehow the cause of these deaths. Now this extreme PTSD subject is beaten in a forced labour camp for the rest of their shortened lives.

Moral of the story: Don’t be a spineless gladium.

exactly.

Also There are plenty of people out there looking and able to work without being whipped. Either way my main point was I think it’s more humane to just kill them then keep them alive like that, if you are just sacrificing them, to them life is no better than if the dragons did take over. Either way I don’t like how the charr says don’t kill them because we aren’t sadist yet its okay to whip them and force them to mine ore all day.

No matter what form of life you are, losing your freedom is a million times worse than losing your life.

Redxon.6832:

I feel it’s much more sadistic to keep someone alive in chains and work them endlessly by whip rather than to just kill them :S

Don’t worry, it is just a bunch of Charr. They have no souls anyway. Just keep on whipping them.

well, you could write to amnesty international and demand they chastise anet for this vile torture propaganda.

Or you could refrain from this activity in game.

Or you could realize those are just lines of code being whipped, promise yourself you will not act likewise in real life and let things go.

Choice is up to you.

Vanthian.9267:

Don’t worry, it is just a bunch of Charr. They have no souls anyway. Just keep on whipping them.

I never played Guild Wars, but there have been times where I’ve wanted to fight for the Separatists and Ascalonian ghosts against the Charr.

But for real troubling moral issues, there are always the Asura, who want to commit genocide against the Skritt.

I remember that place.

My rather timid and emotionally scarred human torturer elementalist instead pitched in and helped to get the work done. You don’t need to hurt anyone to do that heart, you can instead take some of the work load for them.

From our point of view, the charr justice system has some serious problems. But if you completed the heart by beating up possibly innocent prisoners and didn’t notice the “good” way to do it, then I’d say the charr are not the only ones jumping to easy solutions.
:P

First off, this is just a reflection of charr culture. It’s a military culture of vicious flesh-eating hell cats. They are a harsh race with harsh laws. Disobedient soldiers are lucky to be sent to the mines—they can also be executed by being forced to fight to death in gladiator arenas, or they can be banished as gladium, forever outcast in society. Personally, of those three, I’d take the mines option.
Also, you don’t have to whip the prisoners. There is also the option to help them mine ore, and to refine the ore into iron. The helping option and the refinement option will let you finish the heart just as easily as the whipping option.

The societies of the races aren’t meant to be goody-goody moral beacons. They’re meant to represent realistic societies, which means they have corruption and other issues.

The humans have a law that, if somebody wrongs you, you can fight them to the death. Whoever dies is wrong, whoever lives is right, no questions asked. In the personal story, your noble PC chooses this option over having a trial in court because the PC realizes his side will lose a trial. So, the PC just kills off the opposing noble. Problem solved.

Among the asura, scientific experiments are frequently conducted on sentient beings without their consent. Races that the asura deem “inferior”, like skritt, ettins, and so-on, are experimented on without much concern for their well being. This is true of inquest, and of regular asuran society. The only difference between the two is that inquest will experiment on their own people.

For the Norn, they have no organized government. They gather for trade and other exchange in Hoelbrak, but the Norn live on the concept of “you can do whatever you want”. A norn could slaughter a grawl tribe, or become a murdering pirate, or do any number of morally questionable things “for glory”, without any consequences. In fact, their society would praise them.

And lastly, the Lettuces. Honestly, the Lettuces are probably the most moral of the bunch. However, they still have the Nightmare Court, who torture and murder countless innocents.

The point of all this is that, when it comes to morality, nobody in this game gets away clean.

I’m not sure where all this talk about gladiums being in the prison is coming from. They’re not super popular, but they’re certainly not illegal. I’d expect most charr to pity them as much or more than scorn them.

Personally, I assumed the prisoners were either some kind of separatist group or Flame Legion. I’m not a fan of whipping prisoners of war to make them mine faster, of course, but it’s certainly not out of character for the Legions to treat prisoners that way. But I don’t approve of Asura experimenting on live ettins, either. It’s a big world, and not all of the NPCs are morally outstanding.

Fortunately, in this case, we can complete the heart without actually beating up prisoners. I’d be more conflicted if we didn’t have an option.

I’ve always beaten them directly [even in passing by], lets conclude (throwing out the dialog here and just use some common sense) that the miners know about the threat to Tyria there friends and families are at risk of being directly effected, but yet they gossip and lazy about instead!

They are either a complicit with enemy or not worthy of the job in which they have been entrusted to do, but they are all we’ve got beating them vs the salvation of the world, “I’ll take that red button twice sir.” – Red October

While we’re on the subject its pretty close to my absolute hatred for the dredge, I cross entire contents to slay every last one of them.

And don’t get me started on moas!

Redxon.6832:

just did this hear that went against everything i believe in :/

Its the one in iron marches where you “motivate” prisoners by whipping them and the heart guy says you can whip them and fight them if they fight back but don’t kill them “because we aren’t sadists.”

I feel it’s much more sadistic to keep someone alive in chains and work them endlessly by whip rather than to just kill them :S

Remember that the Charr legions brag about “killing their gods” during the Charr intro. It goes to show you that it’s not God(s), atheism, or any other belief system that makes a person into a good being. It’s people’s choices & actions that determine if they’re good or evil. Stuff like this in the game is a reminder that people who commit terror will do so regardless of a belief system.

I agree with you that it’s very disturbing for those of us who see this type of abuse on a regular basis (thanks to the RL war that is going on in the world). Abusing those prisoners is wrong. Whether or not they deserve it doesn’t matter. Abuse is abuse. Luckily for us, there are alternative ways of fill the heart requirements.

In my view, the Charr Legions are in the same conundrum as the Asuran Council. They’re smart when it comes to making “stuff”. Sadly, they’re seriously lacking when it comes to ethics, morals, empathy, and compassion.

This situation in the game is up there with the last part of LS Season 1’s story instance where Jory (Marjory) makes fun of Scarlet’s death in a very crude way. In Jory’s case, she paid for her mistake by losing her sister in LS2: Episode 2. In that episode, Mordremoth gets revenge by choking Jory’s sibling to death. It’s only a matter of time before the Charr Legions pay for their abuses.

just fill up the ore and move on if you want to be less abusive. Side benefit is it actually helps the prisoners.

One more thing to remember: Charr are not just bigger and stronger than humans, they’re likely harder to hurt, too.

A lot of animals bite, scratch, and generally abuse each other as a way of communicating and playing, and they do no real harm most of the time. (That changes when they’re actually fighting, naturally.) If they do that to humans, however, our fairly thin skin doesn’t take it very well.

Whipping the charr may be unsettling, but the fact is that it just may not hurt them as much as it would a human. That’s not to say it’s right, just that it may not be quite as brutal as you think.

Whipping a Charr is unsettling? That’s what I do in my spare time!

kta.6502:

Abusing those prisoners is wrong. Whether or not they deserve it doesn’t matter. Abuse is abuse. Luckily for us, there are alternative ways of fill the heart requirements.

In Jory’s case, she paid for her mistake by losing her sister in LS2: Episode 2. In that episode, Mordremoth gets revenge by choking Jory’s sibling to death. It’s only a matter of time before the Charr Legions pay for their abuses.

In the first statement, you say that abuse is abuse, and that it shouldn’t happen even if somebody “deserves” it. In the second statement, you justify Jory’s personal tragedy because, in essence, she deserved it for her crudeness. That’s pretty contradictory.

At any rate, I can agree with the rest of what you said, and yes—it would be an issue if there weren’t multiple ways you could carry out the heart quest.

A war torn world faces moral dilemma every single day. The choice is in your hands. Do you take the easy yet brutal route, or the route that requires more effort, but is kinder?

In war, black and white is more often than not just shades of grey.

aerial.7021:

I’ve always beaten them directly [even in passing by], lets conclude (throwing out the dialog here and just use some common sense) that the miners know about the threat to Tyria there friends and families are at risk of being directly effected, but yet they gossip and lazy about instead!

They are either a complicit with enemy or not worthy of the job in which they have been entrusted to do, but they are all we’ve got beating them vs the salvation of the world, “I’ll take that red button twice sir.” – Red October

While we’re on the subject its pretty close to my absolute hatred for the dredge, I cross entire contents to slay every last one of them.

And don’t get me started on moas!

Totally off topic, but I just loved finding another dredgehater!! The dwarves should have wiped them out before leaving.

Redxon.6832:

I feel it’s much more sadistic to keep someone alive in chains and work them endlessly by whip rather than to just kill them :S

Oh, i see. You’d rather Charr exterminated all prisoners on the spot. Duly noted.

A lot of ethical quandaries throughout the GW2 game world are handled rather flippantly. I don’t think this is always some deliberate attempt to be edgy or gray. Rather, I think there’s just a lot of dull, and sometimes careless, writing. To be fair, the fact that most of it seems tailored for a YA audience limits the extent to which—or at least the means by which—sapient depravity can be explored. The Witcher universe this is not.

The renown heart in question at least provides alternatives to brutality, unlike some other points in the game.

Berk.8561:

Vanthian.9267:

Don’t worry, it is just a bunch of Charr. They have no souls anyway. Just keep on whipping them.

I never played Guild Wars, but there have been times where I’ve wanted to fight for the Separatists and Ascalonian ghosts against the Charr.

But for real troubling moral issues, there are always the Asura, who want to commit genocide against the Skritt.

Problems that Separatists are partially backed up by crooked high ranking officials in Kryta, who want more profit at the cost of lives of their own people.

So there’s nothing good from human side either, or any race…

You should not take your morality from computer game characters. You should have your own morality and make judgements on what you see based on your own morality.

When the computer game asks you to do something in game that you don’t agree with you can either (a) morally object for your personal satisfaction or (b) do it anyway as it is just a game.

Stooperdale.3560:

You should not take your morality from computer game characters. You should have your own morality and make judgements on what you see based on your own morality.

When the computer game asks you to do something in game that you don’t agree with you can either (a) morally object for your personal satisfaction or (b) do it anyway as it is just a game.

QFT

Now if there was some sort of value that swayed from good / neutral or evil, that had an over all effect on your story in the game, eg. too much evil your on the side of the dragons and your probably an undead, too much good and you lose your abilities to even hold a sword and have developed an uncanny ability to cross stitch blindfolded.

Everything in balance, tip boat too much left or right you will sink.

Presumably you meant this heart
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Help_Warden_Scourgejaw_run_the_prison_quarry

If you talk to the NPC’s the prisoners are in there for a variety of crimes against the legions. Given that the Charr respond to little but brute power and force, it’s not really much of a big deal that they need to be whipped to keep them in line.

Charr are like Klingons in that respect. To gain their (grudging) respect, you just had to show that you’re stronger than they are. No real big deal.

It’s not an issue with GW2’s morality but an issue with your morality.
Charr are like that. They beat each other into submission and they probably wouldn’t want it any other way.
You’re having a problem with that as a human. Charr are not human, they’re charr.

Which brings up a somewhat interesting question, if Tyria was the real world how would us as real humans deal with these problems?

Perhaps because of our indecisive in house warring nature in and to ourselves the Lich might have won, forget about dragons and so on we might already be a memory slowly fading into myth.

Redxon.6832:

just did this hear that went against everything i believe in :/

Its the one in iron marches where you “motivate” prisoners by whipping them and the heart guy says you can whip them and fight them if they fight back but don’t kill them “because we aren’t sadists.”

I feel it’s much more sadistic to keep someone alive in chains and work them endlessly by whip rather than to just kill them :S

Your first mistake was taking human morality and attempting to apply it to an entirely different species, a species that has been bred for war and victory at all costs.

If you knew some of the crap we Asura do………

Also I feel this is a fitting topic for this image,

I very much enjoyed this heart quest. Wish there were more hearts for non “do-gooders”

Weindrasi.3805:

The humans have a law that, if somebody wrongs you, you can fight them to the death. Whoever dies is wrong, whoever lives is right, no questions asked. In the personal story, your noble PC chooses this option over having a trial in court because the PC realizes his side will lose a trial. So, the PC just kills off the opposing noble. Problem solved.

I’m pretty sure that it wasn’t the PC who chose this option.

in that way, I kinda like the Charr and to an extent the Norn. They have simple principles. Strength is everything, loyalty to the war band is everything. The political machinations of the Asura and Humans mean little. Charr are bred to fight and in a world that is always in conflict, striving to be the strongest in a fight makes sense

Tim.6450:

Weindrasi.3805:

The humans have a law that, if somebody wrongs you, you can fight them to the death. Whoever dies is wrong, whoever lives is right, no questions asked. In the personal story, your noble PC chooses this option over having a trial in court because the PC realizes his side will lose a trial. So, the PC just kills off the opposing noble. Problem solved.

I’m pretty sure that it wasn’t the PC who chose this option.

It wasn’t.

On the whole, i find it really funny. Our PC characters (regardless of race) are happily murdering by the score thousands of humans and nonhumans, and nobody sees any moral problems with that – but have one npc whip another, and it’s suddenly a horrifying crime.

Astralporing.1957:

Tim.6450:

Weindrasi.3805:

The humans have a law that, if somebody wrongs you, you can fight them to the death. Whoever dies is wrong, whoever lives is right, no questions asked. In the personal story, your noble PC chooses this option over having a trial in court because the PC realizes his side will lose a trial. So, the PC just kills off the opposing noble. Problem solved.

I’m pretty sure that it wasn’t the PC who chose this option.

It wasn’t.

On the whole, i find it really funny. Our PC characters (regardless of race) are happily murdering by the score thousands of humans and nonhumans, and nobody sees any moral problems with that – but have one npc whip another, and it’s suddenly a horrifying crime.

Just like humans in real life, full of hypocrisy

Redxon.6832:

just did this hear that went against everything i believe in :/

Its the one in iron marches where you “motivate” prisoners by whipping them and the heart guy says you can whip them and fight them if they fight back but don’t kill them “because we aren’t sadists.”

I feel it’s much more sadistic to keep someone alive in chains and work them endlessly by whip rather than to just kill them :S

I see we have a lot of misinformed people. First off, the Charr prisoners are CRIMINALS, not necessarily Gladium or Flame Legion, but common, or rather, uncommon criminals. Second, if you watch closely you do not whip them directly, but crack the whip AT them, this is not a moral issue, liken to the old chain gangs of the American justice system, which some believe we should bring back(and in some areas of the country they have, and found that it works wonderfully, but that’s off topic).

Real Life is really disturbing. That our range of possible choices are supposedly those of heroes, is mighty disturbing.

aerial.7021:

Which brings up a somewhat interesting question, if Tyria was the real world how would us as real humans deal with these problems?

If Glint’s crystals already are that coveted, think real world human potentates would invade the Crystal desert in order to try and harvest Kralkatorrik for the motherload of aspect crystals. Over these, a war with Palawa Joko would ensue and “Real Tyria” would call volunteers for “heroic intervention” aswell as back a malignant Ossan rebellion that adds a manyfold to the ghosts of the slain in the former Crystal Desert. “For Tyria!” of course.

They are Charr, that’s how they roll.

You know what I’ve found the most distressing hearts to do? The ones that involve erasing the art of a given group. Apparently nobody at ANet has ever studied anthropology. Oh, and that one in Ascalon (Fireheart, maybe?) where the only thing to do is stealth through the camp, but that’s just because I hate stealth challenges.

@Weindrasi: You actually have it the other way around. The PC has gathered proof that a noble has been secretly selling out information about Seraph patrols to the centaurs, allowing them to ambush and capture/kill Seraph. The PC, along with Logan Thackeray and Countess Anise, finally succeed in calling a trial, but the noble invokes an ancient Krytan right to “trial by combat” (which the presiding judge, Minister Caudecus, agrees suspiciously quickly to).

As for that particular Heart, yeah, I felt it was a bit iffy, but the prisoners there are Charr criminals who have essentially been sentenced to “hard labour” as punishment. It’s not very different from typical medieval societies who have punishments like being condemned to row in the galleys, or to get locked in the stocks while people throw all kinds of (potentially lethal) stuff at them.

Guhracie.3419:

You know what I’ve found the most distressing hearts to do? The ones that involve erasing the art of a given group. Apparently nobody at ANet has ever studied anthropology. Oh, and that one in Ascalon (Fireheart, maybe?) where the only thing to do is stealth through the camp, but that’s just because I hate stealth challenges.

I’m glad I’m not the only one who hates that stealth heart, they are way over sensitive to knowing your there.

If anything, the game should be less pink unicorns and happy bunnies, and have a bit more things like this heart.

“What did I ever… do… to you?”

Dying last words of one of the millions of bandits slain mercilessly at the hands of Tyria’s “heroes”.

Morality is a very fluid concept. I’m enjoying this thread a great deal.

It could be worse. They could be using those prisoners as ammo for target practice with catapults. Like, ya know, those poor non-criminal cows. Or maybe the cows being shot from the catapult are pacifist cows that refused to undergo self-defense training by people in cow suits. Whatever the case may be, clearly it’s not a good time to be bovine in Tyria. Someday, though. Someday…

Palador.2170:

I remember that place.

My rather timid and emotionally scarred human torturer elementalist instead pitched in and helped to get the work done. You don’t need to hurt anyone to do that heart, you can instead take some of the work load for them.

From our point of view, the charr justice system has some serious problems. But if you completed the heart by beating up possibly innocent prisoners and didn’t notice the “good” way to do it, then I’d say the charr are not the only ones jumping to easy solutions.
:P

There is so much win in this post

Well, OP went full kitteh?

You know what I like about some war movies, documents etc?
Yes, some of them.

Because they show how it really was.
There were slaves, there were prisoners, murderers.
Corrupted governments, monarchy.

It was in every single country.
It still exist.
It will exist.

My question then is:
- What is the point to pretend that it doesn’t exist? Why would we turn a blind eye on how things really are?

I myself am already fed up with this shiny, pony, rainbowy full of happiness crap that is being shown everywhere in order to make you believe, that cruelty doesn’t exist.

I’ll even say, that whipping prisoners, beating them and all is a little kitten compared to real deal.

For example, look how UK has it rough with snackbars.

Ugh, oh yeah, you guys forgot religious persecution.

kittening guy in Maw, all he wants yo do is worship Dragon, so what does he do? He erects a totem to his animal spirit. And what are we told to do, kill him. Kill him because heaven forbid it offends Bear.

kitten Bear
Poor Svanir Shaman.(((

Separatists anyone?

I will never get the separatist slayer achievement. I don’t go to ebonhawke for that reason.

Vigil?
Priory?
Whispers?

kitten THAT!
I want to join SEPERATIST faction.

A game does not have to be morally perfect. Otherwise it’s surreal.

Weindrasi.3805:

The humans have a law that, if somebody wrongs you, you can fight them to the death. Whoever dies is wrong, whoever lives is right, no questions asked. In the personal story, your noble PC chooses this option over having a trial in court because the PC realizes his side will lose a trial. So, the PC just kills off the opposing noble. Problem solved.

Correction: The NPC invokes an old law that was mostly forgotten in order to demand trial by combat because the PC has all the evidence needed. How the NPC knows about the law becomes a clue to a higher-up’s misdeeds. Otherwise this is accurate.

I agree that Tyrian law and morality is not the same as modern western law and morality, nor should it be. GW2 is imo actually far too squeaky clean morally for the world that it posits. It’s a constant dichotomy in the presentation.