Guild Wars 2

the thing that has been wrong about Gw2 is that Anet tried to force alot of sandbox concepts into a theme park mmo.

Just think about it Gw1 was incredibly sandboxy and just as overal unpopular. Then for Gw2 they went for more theme-park , and it ended up as a total mess because theme-park mmo players don’t want a weak hybrid of both types.

sandbox
-skill points / utilities
- level scaling
-exploation
- multi path dungeons
-WvW

thempark
-weapon skills
-levels
- hearts
- world bosses
-multi difficulty dungeons
-sPvp

Can you elaborate how the bullet points you listed lead to a poorer experience?

Try this on for size::

If you approach GW2 as a standard 60$ Action/Adventure Console game (Skyrim) w/online co-op ~ then you’ll be pretty satisfied with your purchase and how GW2 caters to that mindset.

IE: Get in, play.. get out, walk away and wait for the next batch of DLC (expansion).

However, if you approach GW2 as an MMO ~ odds are, you’ll be disappointed for several reasons.

Standardized Loot / Character Progression / Combat::
1. Everything is set up so, no one really ever feels powerful.
2. Lack of trinity means, you don’t need anyone and are not needed by anyone.

The staples of an MMO are designed around creating a community from the players and promoting them to work together. ~ in this aspect, GW2 fails as an MMO.

Granted people can argue, saying that GW2 is amazing and is better off without the Trinity and having to rely on other players.

They then point to Dynamic events and how you “need” other people to kill mobs like Balthazar, Dragons, ect…

But do you really? are the faceless masses anymore “personal” than having a bunch of henchmen NPC to help you finish the event?

Think about it ~ we don’t know the names of other people at those events, because we’re not there for them ~ we don’t need to talk, we don’t need to socialize or even organize ~ we only care about the “chance” at uber loot (perhaps the precursor?) and to farm Karma/Gold.

Since those bosses are nothing more than HP sponges that hit like trucks (no tactics) ~ people just sit back and spam, leaving the few people that agro the mob to be chased by him, while they take pot shots at it and if someone gets low on HP they throw down their AOE heals.

Basically, GW2 tries to mimic the Trinity without creating a “need” for people to do anything more than zerg the content.

This trivializes going back to old content while being “leveled down” in that you see no point as you could “experience” the same content at your own level and at least get appropriate gear/loot.

Even the dungeons are designed this way with their “Corpse run, waypoints”.

In all senses of the word “community” ~ it seems that GW2 fails.

This includes the free 24 hour server transfers that shred any hopes of a well built community as well at the ability to join multiple guilds, and yet refuse to put in a multi-chat for each of them, requiring you to “represent” one guild at a time, in order to talk to other members of that guild.

The same goes for World Vs World ~ you cannot see enemy players names.. and there are no scoreboards dedicated to the very skilled or elite of the “leaders” ~ in fact, if you wish to be a “leader” you need only spend 100 gold on a tome to become a commander, there are no other prerequisites or skill based requirements.

IE: No one knows who you are or why you’re deserving to be a “leader” ~ they only see an impersonal title.

When I talk to my friends of old, and why they use to play MUD’s, Asherons Call and Ultima Online ~ they always talk about the “community” and how back then, those games WERE Facebook. As in, a place for like minded people to gather, socialize and enjoy the craft.

GW2 doesn’t do that, and in my opinion is why WoW is still “king” ~ despite their outdated graphics and kung fu panda hijinks..

If you’ve ever heard someone shout “FOR THE HORDE!” ~ you can see without a shadow of a doubt that the game inspires and promotes a sense of community… for better or worse.

At the end of the day, can you really say that GW2 IS an MMO anymore than League of Legends, Team Fortress 2 or Playing Skyrim while talking to your friends on skype?

These points are so bad and so untrue it is making me laugh nonstop…

@AlexanderFaust.4518

That was actually a really true statement, especially with the For the Horde! comment….Ultima Online was awesome because you could create an identity and in a sense, live in the world with this identity. In GW2 the identity is created for you, and you play that identity in a world meant for everything else but you the player. In short: It’s like watching a tv show or movie unlike a book where you use your own imagination. Just my two copper anyways.

Jamais vu.5284:

Can you elaborate how the bullet points you listed lead to a poorer experience?

it isn’t worse; it just dosent sit right, its like walking around with you pants on backwards

Kalocin.5982:

@AlexanderFaust.4518

That was actually a really true statement, especially with the For the Horde! comment….Ultima Online was awesome because you could create an identity and in a sense, live in the world with this identity. In GW2 the identity is created for you, and you play that identity in a world meant for everything else but you the player. In short: It’s like watching a tv show or movie unlike a book where you use your own imagination. Just my two copper anyways.

Thanks, I had originally wrote that as a reply to an article posted on mmorpg.com ~
The author wrote that WoW was the cause of people not liking GW2 ~ which simply isn’t true.

If you would like ta see his follow up reply as well as mine, check check it out here:: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/links/Article-A-history-of-MMOs-and-Console-games

Zenith.1234:

These points are so bad and so untrue it is making me laugh nonstop…

How are my opinions of what is sandboxy about the game either bad or untrue? I know they lobotomized you at fanboy orientation, but try to hold up a valid argument.

All you did is list a bunch of things. What is your point?

So because this isn’t WOW the game isn’t any good?

Phy.2913:

So because this isn’t WOW the game isn’t any good?

More like this game is trying to act like an MMO when it’s actually just a single player campaign with a CO OP side to it.

Phy.2913:

So because this isn’t WOW the game isn’t any good?

umm did i say wow. i said it a poor hybrid of sandbox and theme-park game design. It isnt a bad idea it just not done well enough.

- yeap double checked, i said wow zero times.

I agree with the OP in the sense that GW2 has an identity crisis: It has elements of both sandbox and themepark MMO’s, but doesn’t quite reach the level of either. It lacks the carrots and character progression to be a themepark, and it lacks more complex mechanics (like player/guild housing, faction PvP, inter-guild politics, etc) to be a sandbox.

Phy.2913:

You don’t have to name something to reference it.

that works right up to the point that i reference a broader theme.

there is a little bit about the sandbox / theme-park issue. it sort of goes all over but alot of the crap poeple are griping about.

(broken quoting again)

lacrimstein.5603

I agree with the OP in the sense that GW2 has an identity crisis: It has elements of both sandbox and themepark MMO’s, but doesn’t quite reach the level of either. It lacks the carrots and character progression to be a themepark, and it lacks more complex mechanics (like player/guild housing, faction PvP, inter-guild politics, etc) to be a sandbox

I agree with this a lot and I think that is my biggest issue with the game. I think they’re clearly (or else we’d have named mobs and a less realistic world) leaning toward a sandbox game but they wanted to hook in the WoW and traditional mmo players.

AlexanderFaust.4518:

Try this on for size::

If you approach GW2 as a standard 60$ Action/Adventure Console game (Skyrim) w/online co-op ~ then you’ll be pretty satisfied with your purchase and how GW2 caters to that mindset.

IE: Get in, play.. get out, walk away and wait for the next batch of DLC (expansion).

However, if you approach GW2 as an MMO ~ odds are, you’ll be disappointed for several reasons.

Standardized Loot / Character Progression / Combat::
1. Everything is set up so, no one really ever feels powerful.
2. Lack of trinity means, you don’t need anyone and are not needed by anyone.

The staples of an MMO are designed around creating a community from the players and promoting them to work together. ~ in this aspect, GW2 fails as an MMO.

Granted people can argue, saying that GW2 is amazing and is better off without the Trinity and having to rely on other players.

They then point to Dynamic events and how you “need” other people to kill mobs like Balthazar, Dragons, ect…

But do you really? are the faceless masses anymore “personal” than having a bunch of henchmen NPC to help you finish the event?

Think about it ~ we don’t know the names of other people at those events, because we’re not there for them ~ we don’t need to talk, we don’t need to socialize or even organize ~ we only care about the “chance” at uber loot (perhaps the precursor?) and to farm Karma/Gold.

Since those bosses are nothing more than HP sponges that hit like trucks (no tactics) ~ people just sit back and spam, leaving the few people that agro the mob to be chased by him, while they take pot shots at it and if someone gets low on HP they throw down their AOE heals.

Basically, GW2 tries to mimic the Trinity without creating a “need” for people to do anything more than zerg the content.

This trivializes going back to old content while being “leveled down” in that you see no point as you could “experience” the same content at your own level and at least get appropriate gear/loot.

Even the dungeons are designed this way with their “Corpse run, waypoints”.

In all senses of the word “community” ~ it seems that GW2 fails.

This includes the free 24 hour server transfers that shred any hopes of a well built community as well at the ability to join multiple guilds, and yet refuse to put in a multi-chat for each of them, requiring you to “represent” one guild at a time, in order to talk to other members of that guild.

The same goes for World Vs World ~ you cannot see enemy players names.. and there are no scoreboards dedicated to the very skilled or elite of the “leaders” ~ in fact, if you wish to be a “leader” you need only spend 100 gold on a tome to become a commander, there are no other prerequisites or skill based requirements.

IE: No one knows who you are or why you’re deserving to be a “leader” ~ they only see an impersonal title.

When I talk to my friends of old, and why they use to play MUD’s, Asherons Call and Ultima Online ~ they always talk about the “community” and how back then, those games WERE Facebook. As in, a place for like minded people to gather, socialize and enjoy the craft.

GW2 doesn’t do that, and in my opinion is why WoW is still “king” ~ despite their outdated graphics and kung fu panda hijinks..

If you’ve ever heard someone shout “FOR THE HORDE!” ~ you can see without a shadow of a doubt that the game inspires and promotes a sense of community… for better or worse.

At the end of the day, can you really say that GW2 IS an MMO anymore than League of Legends, Team Fortress 2 or Playing Skyrim while talking to your friends on skype?

opinion =/= fact?…

Sin.8174:

opinion =/= fact?…

No such thing as facts because anything can be disproved, we merely make theories strong enough that we can’t really disagree with them. Remember, the world used to be flat.

Anyways, discussion or progress in anything really, stems from opinions, thoughts and theories. If you don’t want opinions on a forum then you really need to look somewhere else, such as gw2 wiki. However, people like us want to discuss, we want to make issues that we obviously find a problem to just ourselves known so that we can discuss if it isn’t just our issues. Once we find out that it is more than our own issues, we can realize there is a problem, and thus a discussion for how to change said problem is created.

Sin.8174:

AlexanderFaust.4518:

Try this on for size::

If you approach GW2 as a standard 60$ Action/Adventure Console game (Skyrim) w/online co-op ~ then you’ll be pretty satisfied with your purchase and how GW2 caters to that mindset.

IE: Get in, play.. get out, walk away and wait for the next batch of DLC (expansion).

However, if you approach GW2 as an MMO ~ odds are, you’ll be disappointed for several reasons.

Standardized Loot / Character Progression / Combat::
1. Everything is set up so, no one really ever feels powerful.
2. Lack of trinity means, you don’t need anyone and are not needed by anyone.

The staples of an MMO are designed around creating a community from the players and promoting them to work together. ~ in this aspect, GW2 fails as an MMO.

Granted people can argue, saying that GW2 is amazing and is better off without the Trinity and having to rely on other players.

They then point to Dynamic events and how you “need” other people to kill mobs like Balthazar, Dragons, ect…

But do you really? are the faceless masses anymore “personal” than having a bunch of henchmen NPC to help you finish the event?

Think about it ~ we don’t know the names of other people at those events, because we’re not there for them ~ we don’t need to talk, we don’t need to socialize or even organize ~ we only care about the “chance” at uber loot (perhaps the precursor?) and to farm Karma/Gold.

Since those bosses are nothing more than HP sponges that hit like trucks (no tactics) ~ people just sit back and spam, leaving the few people that agro the mob to be chased by him, while they take pot shots at it and if someone gets low on HP they throw down their AOE heals.

Basically, GW2 tries to mimic the Trinity without creating a “need” for people to do anything more than zerg the content.

This trivializes going back to old content while being “leveled down” in that you see no point as you could “experience” the same content at your own level and at least get appropriate gear/loot.

Even the dungeons are designed this way with their “Corpse run, waypoints”.

In all senses of the word “community” ~ it seems that GW2 fails.

This includes the free 24 hour server transfers that shred any hopes of a well built community as well at the ability to join multiple guilds, and yet refuse to put in a multi-chat for each of them, requiring you to “represent” one guild at a time, in order to talk to other members of that guild.

The same goes for World Vs World ~ you cannot see enemy players names.. and there are no scoreboards dedicated to the very skilled or elite of the “leaders” ~ in fact, if you wish to be a “leader” you need only spend 100 gold on a tome to become a commander, there are no other prerequisites or skill based requirements.

IE: No one knows who you are or why you’re deserving to be a “leader” ~ they only see an impersonal title.

When I talk to my friends of old, and why they use to play MUD’s, Asherons Call and Ultima Online ~ they always talk about the “community” and how back then, those games WERE Facebook. As in, a place for like minded people to gather, socialize and enjoy the craft.

GW2 doesn’t do that, and in my opinion is why WoW is still “king” ~ despite their outdated graphics and kung fu panda hijinks..

If you’ve ever heard someone shout “FOR THE HORDE!” ~ you can see without a shadow of a doubt that the game inspires and promotes a sense of community… for better or worse.

At the end of the day, can you really say that GW2 IS an MMO anymore than League of Legends, Team Fortress 2 or Playing Skyrim while talking to your friends on skype?

opinion =/= fact?…

Nope…….common sense.

I sometimes wonder if most people even understand the application of the term “sandbox” any more.

-skill points / utilities
- level scaling
-exploation
- multi path dungeons
-WvW

Not one of items strike me as a particularly “sandbox” feature.

Sin.8174:

Kalocin.5982:

Sin.8174:

opinion =/= fact?…

No such thing as facts because anything can be disproved, we merely make theories strong enough that we can’t really disagree with them. Remember, the world used to be flat.

Anyways, discussion or progress in anything really, stems from opinions, thoughts and theories. If you don’t want opinions on a forum then you really need to look somewhere else, such as gw2 wiki. However, people like us want to discuss, we want to make issues that we obviously find a problem to just ourselves known so that we can discuss if it isn’t just our issues. Once we find out that it is more than our own issues, we can realize there is a problem, and thus a discussion for how to change said problem is created.

/facepakm

Really? Are you going to try this?..

Right. Let’s see here.

These issues are your personal issues. Point blank. I’m tired of people throwing out how a game should have this, this, this, and most importantly THIS. If not, it’s not a fun game. I mean, really? GW2 is not an MMO?.. Just because it’s not an MMO in a sense of how you see it?

It’s opinion, and not one that is shared by all. For example.. in Alexander’s post when he goes on about ’If you approach…" is 100% crap.

That’s opinionated conjecture. There are many people IN GAME that do not feel this way. I play the game as an MMO, a different style of MMO, and am still having a blast. It’s simply opinion and what you think may be wrong with the game, others feel is just fine.

It’s never going to be a simple discussion. it’s going to be an argument. A heated debate, which, I’m sure will devolve into throwing out things like ‘fanboy’, ‘white knight’, ‘elitist’, or anything else that’s so overused and tiresome that the thread pretty much becomes null. Circular discussion ftw.!

Oh wait. szar already beat me to it.

Not sure why you get so offended by me calling GW2 a console game.

I never said or implied that made GW2 a BAD GAME ~ just that it doesn’t make sense to defend or claim that it’s a “different” MMO.

It’s just Skyrim with Co-op.

If you like that, AWESOME! ~ if not, then odds are it’s because you want a community driven and built MMO. IE: Something GW2 isn’t.

Kalocin.5982:

I think they’re clearly (or else we’d have named mobs and a less realistic world) leaning toward a sandbox game but they wanted to hook in the WoW and traditional mmo players.

I just don’t see much actual sandbox element in this game, with the arguable exception of WvW. Yes, you have the ability to do more stuff per se, but it’s all still very regimented. From overall movement to the DE’s that happen to players having an impact on the world (or not). That’s not a strike against GW2, but just the reality of things.

True sandbox games have a heavy reliance on the community to build game elements themselves, and that generally doesn’t happen in modern titles, because they seem to go to great lengths to insulate the behavior of one player from impacting another, whether that be positive or negative.

atropos.3074:

Kalocin.5982:

I think they’re clearly (or else we’d have named mobs and a less realistic world) leaning toward a sandbox game but they wanted to hook in the WoW and traditional mmo players.

I just don’t see much actual sandbox element in this game, with the arguable exception of WvW. Yes, you have the ability to do more stuff per se, but it’s all still very regimented. From overall movement to the DE’s that happen to players having an impact on the world (or not). That’s not a strike against GW2, but just the reality of things.

True sandbox games have a heavy reliance on the community to build game elements themselves, and that generally doesn’t happen in modern titles, because they seem to go to great lengths to insulate the behavior of one player from impacting another, whether that be positive or negative.

Curious what the last “Sandbox” title you played was.

For me, it was Wakfu ~ No quests, no structure, nothing ~ just an open world ta go out and explore.

Granted, it was fun at first… I’ll be honest in saying that some of the design choices they had, made me wonder what they were smoking.

IE: Most their crafting professions were useless, due to mob drop rates (crafts were weaker than drops). And to level them up took an eternity of grinding mats -_-

AlexanderFaust.4518:

I never said or implied that made GW2 a BAD GAME ~ just that it doesn’t make sense to defend or claim that it’s a “different” MMO.

I know a lot has been said but I want to piggy back this statement because I agree with it 100%.

In my opinion GW2, though a good game, has not done anything all that “different”, they just changed the angle at which we view something.

Examples:

Gear treadmill was replaced with the skin treadmill. A primary grind in this game is to get “rare” and “legendary” skins instead of rare and legendary gear. It is still a grind which requires farming, the main difference is one has stats and the other doesn’t.

For the most part dynamic events are nothing more than repeatable quests. Even DE that have multiple stages are nothing more than quests chains. Main difference is that you don’t have to turn them in and they usually require some assistance. The rest of the dynamic events are…ready for it?

Group dynamic events is GW2 speak for raid…except you don’t need to be in a group. The really depressing part is that all, except for a few primary group DE, DE are tank and spank…oh wait sorry we don’t have tanks…are show up and spank…or something.

I am going to stop here because I don’t want to come across as someone who is bashing this game because I am not. Just pointing out that in my opinion ANet has done a good job redefining the apple into an orange.

I could care less about PvE.

I bought GW2 for the 3way WvW.

Already pretty bored though.