Guild Wars 2

For the most part, the majority of the forum complaints and frustrations seem to ultimately come from two meta design decisions in GW2: degressive random chance, and pure capitalism.

By saying “degressive” random chance, I am making a distinction between the more Eastern-style MMOs that rely heavily on cost-intensive random chance to acquire some of the most sought after things in the game, and “progressive” random chance that more Western-style MMOs tend to use where random chance is mitigated over time. For example: a progressive random chance would be something like running a dungeon with a boss that has a loot table that includes an item you want, but regardless of whether or not you receive the item, you get tokens that enable you to purchase that item (or one similar) after you’ve gotten enough. So it’s like random chance, but you still have progression. You still feel like eventually you will get the item, even if your luck is bad. And importantly, you certainly never lose ground – running the dungeon just costs you time, but you still get enough of whatever so that you feel your time wasn’t wasted. By contrast, “degressive” random chance is exactly that: you are just as close to receiving the item on your first try as your 1000th try, except “tries” cost you something – gold, time, whatever – and they don’t give you enough to make you feel compensated. So, after 1000 tries you are further behind where you were when you first started, and you still have just as much chance to get the item as before.

What really makes this style of random chance a killer, though, is a low drop rate. In a certain Western MMO, thanks to a much smaller variety of gear stat configurations, you might have about a 1 in 10 or even 1 in 5 chance of getting an item you can use from a boss in a dungeon. You have to add loot rolls into the equation, but generally you might get a useful item every 5 or 10 dungeon runs (or at least, this is how I felt like it worked). In GW2, most sources of rewards have extremely low drop rates – something like the 1% range – which are orders of magnitude different. This ends up making hard items harder to obtain, which is great for keeping them truly “rare” – but it also ends up feeling less rewarding.

The cash shop chests are degressive random chance. They also have an extremely low drop rate for all the “good” items, and most of the “bad” items are low-to-zero value – meaning, there is no sense of “progress” or even a small reward worth receiving. People used to the other style of “progressive” random chance are having a very hard time with this model.

The other thing people dislike is the “pure” (or close, anyway) capitalism of the Trading Post. Many don’t even realize that they dislike it. It is like the difference between people who earn money trading stocks, and those who earn money creating a product. It is very easy to understand creating a product: use items + skill to create something, and sell for less than it cost to make. Your profit comes from the skill you used to make the product, and people are willing to pay you for your time or skill. Stocks, though, are much trickier: you’re basically making money by moving money around. Certainly it’s also a skill, but there is no product, and the rules are murky and reward behaviors that many people in this world consider selfish. People aren’t rewarding you: you are taking their money, and they simply don’t understand the system enough to stop you.

What really makes pure capitalism a killer, though, is knowing how successful others have been. Since the Trading Post is a game of player vs. player, it comes down to winners and losers, and the vast majority of people lose and a tiny fraction win – big. And when the vast majority start realizing that there are people with tens of thousands of gold in-game just a few months in, while they have tens of gold, it makes it feel even less rewarding. Everyone wants to win, but seeing others “win” thousands of gold in the same time you make dozens makes your dozens feel even less valuable – because you could have had thousands.

In the end, these models are completely integrated into the game and I don’t think they can be changed, so it’s best to understand how they work so that you don’t go rage online when you spend 100 dollars on chests and get nothing, or when a small group or single person corners the market on precursors for a while and drives their prices up. That is how the game works, and if you don’t like those systems, the best thing you can do is not to play them.

I don’t know if Anet will ever change the Trading Post, but I believe the cash shop is something players can affect: if you don’t like the degressive random chance style, then all you have to do is never buy anything related to that. Don’t ever buy keys or chests or minis or dye packs or any of that stuff that is just random. DO buy specific skins and specific items and specific things that you know what you are getting. Only if Anet loses money on random stuff will they stop doing it, but I swear every time someone comes and rants about how they blew 100 bucks, they later post “so now I blew 20 more!” If you don’t like the system, you have to stop participating. If absolutely zero random-style items sold while all the static items went like hot cakes, they would change their model.

The only thing I don’t care for is the player culling but I’m pleased to know they are working on that.

Everything else has been great – Best MMO experience ever!

arabeth.2361:

For the most part, the majority of the forum complaints and frustrations seem to ultimately come from two meta design decisions in GW2: degressive random chance, and pure capitalism.

By saying “degressive” random chance, I am making a distinction between the more Eastern-style MMOs that rely heavily on cost-intensive random chance to acquire some of the most sought after things in the game, and “progressive” random chance that more Western-style MMOs tend to use where random chance is mitigated over time. For example: a progressive random chance would be something like running a dungeon with a boss that has a loot table that includes an item you want, but regardless of whether or not you receive the item, you get tokens that enable you to purchase that item (or one similar) after you’ve gotten enough. So it’s like random chance, but you still have progression. You still feel like eventually you will get the item, even if your luck is bad. And importantly, you certainly never lose ground – running the dungeon just costs you time, but you still get enough of whatever so that you feel your time wasn’t wasted. By contrast, “degressive” random chance is exactly that: you are just as close to receiving the item on your first try as your 1000th try, except “tries” cost you something – gold, time, whatever – and they don’t give you enough to make you feel compensated. So, after 1000 tries you are further behind where you were when you first started, and you still have just as much chance to get the item as before.

What really makes this style of random chance a killer, though, is a low drop rate. In a certain Western MMO, thanks to a much smaller variety of gear stat configurations, you might have about a 1 in 10 or even 1 in 5 chance of getting an item you can use from a boss in a dungeon. You have to add loot rolls into the equation, but generally you might get a useful item every 5 or 10 dungeon runs (or at least, this is how I felt like it worked). In GW2, most sources of rewards have extremely low drop rates – something like the 1% range – which are orders of magnitude different. This ends up making hard items harder to obtain, which is great for keeping them truly “rare” – but it also ends up feeling less rewarding.

The cash shop chests are degressive random chance. They also have an extremely low drop rate for all the “good” items, and most of the “bad” items are low-to-zero value – meaning, there is no sense of “progress” or even a small reward worth receiving. People used to the other style of “progressive” random chance are having a very hard time with this model.

Spot on OP, you hit the nail directly and firmly on the head. “Degressive” random chance systems are anti-fun and anti-player, and they suck any enjoyment out of the game.

Constantly moving goal posts suck.

While your arguments against “degressive” random chance have some merit, your argument against the TP seems to come down to envy over the profits that some people are making playing the market.

The games I’ve played that have “progressive” random chance tend to have it in place for items that are required or necessary to progress further in the game (i.e. as part of the gear grind), which doesn’t quite apply to GW2 as there really aren’t any gear checks holding you back from content (with the exception of higher levels of fractals).

The TP is not “pure capitalism”, but is a (lightly regulated) competitive marketplace. Capitalism involves private ownership of the means of production and the production of goods and services for profit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism). While those who amass great in-game wealth are able invest heavily in the markets, they cannot take control over the means of production for goods and services (i.e. loot drops, gathering nodes, crafted items) or use that wealth to bar others from entering into the market.

Define fun. You can’t.

Its purely subjective to each players experience and to add another highly subjective descriptor…their mood.

Raf.1078:

Define fun. You can’t.

Its purely subjective to each players experience and to add another highly subjective descriptor…their mood.

No, but you can easily define things that aren’t fun.

In an RPG, a genre which has and always will be heavily influence by loot, having insanely low drop chance loot and nerfing drop rates into the ground is the antithesis of fun.

GW2 has some of the worst loot of any RPG game, period.

ChairGraveyard.2967:

No, but you can easily define things that aren’t fun.

In an RPG, a genre which has and always will be heavily influence by loot, having insanely low drop chance loot and nerfing drop rates into the ground is the antithesis of fun.

GW2 has some of the worst loot of any RPG game, period.

You know, during the golden days of the Ragnarok Online private servers, most servers have increased drop chances -like x25, x100, x1000- in response to the horrible loot drop rate of the original client.

Once in a while, you’d come across a “x1 drop chance” server. I wonder why.

Maybe because some people actually found it more fun that way. Why? I dont know. Why do some people like pink and others dont?

ChairGraveyard.2967:

GW2 has some of the worst loot of any RPG game, period.

I beg to differ. WoW has the worst drop rates in any game that I’ve ever seen.

This game practically throws loot at you everytime you turn around.

Astraea.6075:

While your arguments against “degressive” random chance have some merit, your argument against the TP seems to come down to envy

Stopped reading after this, you completely destroyed your own argument by framing it badly. If I had a euro for each time I read the words “jealousy” or “envy” on an mmo forum post that was complete rubbish, you’d be envious of my billions, it’s REALLY that simple.

Define fun. You can’t.

Its purely subjective to each players experience and to add another highly subjective descriptor…their mood.

Of course it’s subjective, was there a point to that post or?
Besides, if your fun encroaches on another players idea of fun, then at what point does it become unacceptable? That’s the real issue here, and it’s been skirted quite a lot.

No, but you can easily define things that aren’t fun.

In an RPG, a genre which has and always will be heavily influence by loot, having insanely low drop chance loot and nerfing drop rates into the ground is the antithesis of fun.

GW2 has some of the worst loot of any RPG game, period.

I wouldn’t say “worst” but it’s certainly in line with some of the worst I’ve personally experienced.

[Edited by CC]

I agree totally, and i’m not alone, many others are tired and sick to death of this limited gameplay..

To the person who quoted Ragnarok, you said once in a while you’d find a 1x server, which means they were rare as (in the minority) because most players do not like to work at gaming and feel cheated when a company takes away away their rewards and adds more risk…

Hellkaiser.6025:

Astraea.6075:

While your arguments against “degressive” random chance have some merit, your argument against the TP seems to come down to envy

Stopped reading after this, you completely destroyed your own argument by framing it badly. If I had a euro for each time I read the words “jealousy” or “envy” on an mmo forum post that was complete rubbish, you’d be envious of my billions, it’s REALLY that simple.

Which is your loss, because I didn’t give that aspect any more focus than that one line, but realistically how else do you describe the following reason given by the OP for disliking the TP…

And when the vast majority start realizing that there are people with tens of thousands of gold in-game just a few months in, while they have tens of gold, it makes it feel even less rewarding. Everyone wants to win, but seeing others “win” thousands of gold in the same time you make dozens makes your dozens feel even less valuable – because you could have had thousands.

It is effectively saying, “the TP is bad because it means other people make more money than I do”. If the OP wanted to argue against the TP, then there are better arguments to be made than this.

I was quite sympathetic with the DR issue that quite a few players are reporting in open world PVE since I experienced some of it myself, but the inflating amount of QQ is now driving me in the opposite direction.

It isn’t hard in any way, shape or form to get your toon geared in top level gear. it isn’t.

Now if you want to talk about the grind for legendary, well yeah it sucks a bit that to get the supposedly “coolest” weapons in the game ( I personally don’t think they are, nor worth the effort but that’s my own opinion) require you to grind like a madman. And when I say it sucks, I don’t say because because it is too hard (grinding isn’t hard), but because it is boring.

And what happens once you have reached top gear ? Any profit you make afterwards doesn’t really have a purpose…
You could roll an alt in a different profession and do the same all over again. I mean, it is a way of burning that “pointless” money. Having a another lvl80 makes doing so incredibly faster. Of course if you aren’t inclined that way, then it’s not worth your time.

I got 2 lvl 80s in full exotics with my perfect look for them, and I’m doing a third alt at the moment. It’s going really fast lol. Gold is not issue whatsoever. Plenty of ways to make money, and from there I can spend it on whatever I want…which mostly is on ruminant tonics ( Dolyak form in WvW ftw !!!) or siege weapons ( Golem ftw!!!!).

Seriously, open world DR and nerfed drops : yes, it sucks somewhat. But to the point of ruining your experience ? Really ?

Hellkaiser.6025:

Astraea.6075:

While your arguments against “degressive” random chance have some merit, your argument against the TP seems to come down to envy

Stopped reading after this, you completely destroyed your own argument by framing it badly. If I had a euro for each time I read the words “jealousy” or “envy” on an mmo forum post that was complete rubbish, you’d be envious of my billions, it’s REALLY that simple.

Define fun. You can’t.

Its purely subjective to each players experience and to add another highly subjective descriptor…their mood.

Of course it’s subjective, was there a point to that post or?
Besides, if your fun encroaches on another players idea of fun, then at what point does it become unacceptable? That’s the real issue here, and it’s been skirted quite a lot.

No, but you can easily define things that aren’t fun.

In an RPG, a genre which has and always will be heavily influence by loot, having insanely low drop chance loot and nerfing drop rates into the ground is the antithesis of fun.

GW2 has some of the worst loot of any RPG game, period.

I wouldn’t say “worst” but it’s certainly in line with some of the worst I’ve personally experienced.

Irrelevant anecdote.

Irrelevant pointless post pot, meet anecdotal post kettle.

NOW KISS!

If you had bothered to read the entire thread, instead of immediately climbing on your soapbox, you’d realize that the “fun” comment was directed at Chair Graveyard’s “anti-fun” comment.

But I guess what you had to say was so much profound that who needs to follow the thread?

I’m actually ok with the loot system and chance. It’s an economy, and it works — a lot of people feel like we make really good money and others moan that they don’t. Just like a real economy…

The places where I’m least satisfied, actually, are with the “progressive” – the dungeon tokens are clumsy bank-hoggers.

But I think the O.P. really has it wrong. Most concerns/complaints in the main forum are not about the loot systems, but rather about bugs, about ascended gear, the “trinity,” difficulty finding groups or fun things to do.

Astraea.6075:

Hellkaiser.6025:

Astraea.6075:

While your arguments against “degressive” random chance have some merit, your argument against the TP seems to come down to envy

Stopped reading after this, you completely destroyed your own argument by framing it badly. If I had a euro for each time I read the words “jealousy” or “envy” on an mmo forum post that was complete rubbish, you’d be envious of my billions, it’s REALLY that simple.

Which is your loss, because I didn’t give that aspect any more focus than that one line, but realistically how else do you describe the following reason given by the OP for disliking the TP…

And when the vast majority start realizing that there are people with tens of thousands of gold in-game just a few months in, while they have tens of gold, it makes it feel even less rewarding. Everyone wants to win, but seeing others “win” thousands of gold in the same time you make dozens makes your dozens feel even less valuable – because you could have had thousands.

It is effectively saying, “the TP is bad because it means other people make more money than I do”. If the OP wanted to argue against the TP, then there are better arguments to be made than this.

1: In any way other than that weak and borderline inflammatory offensive way, if you truly want to defend something, starting with “U jelly” in any words won’t get you very far. As I’ve said before you could be right, you could be a darned friggin genius and able to change all our views of the trading post and game, but it won’t do you much good if no one is willing to listen to you cos they tune off the minute they see the undercurrent of elitism.

2: Again, hinting that there’s better arguments without giving them doesn’t really make for a strong point. You’re just attacking the post without reasons. Or at least that’s how it seems as I’m not just saying this to insult you or paint that out to be the way it is, merely that it’s easily misinterpreted.

If you had bothered to read the entire thread, instead of immediately climbing on your soapbox, you’d realize that the “fun” comment was directed at Chair Graveyard’s “anti-fun” comment.

But I guess what you had to say was so much profound that who needs to follow the thread?

There are a lot of definitions of fun, there’s even the warped versions of it if you want to get all out there about it. But I think what he means is that this korean esque grind box is Anti-Fun in the sense that not many people find it fun, sure it’s a subjective comment but do you REALLY like grinding this much in a game? when you could do the equivalent in real life and earn a wage doing it? the points being made allude to the same thing, this doesn’t feel fun, it doesn’t feel like a game and the answers are always the same

“don’t do it” “don’t play the game” “if you don’t like it don’t post about it”

And it all reeks of garbage. By all means tell me I’m wrong here I mean actually explain to me how I’m wrong to want a better way of dealing with the issues that this game has, but don’t just come out with vapid rubbish like “just don’t play” I bought the friggin game same as everyone else, and they started to change the game and build it in directions that I highly question. Should I just shut up and not say anything? WHAT IS IT?

i would argue rather than a degressive random chance the game has a recessive random element. If i kill a mob or run an event or event chain i have x chance of loot, due to diminishing returns if i keep running the event each time i presumably ( because no one will actualy say what the DR is doing ) have less chance. The idea of the more you play the less we reward you is just crazy.

Hellkaiser.6025:

Should I just shut up and not say anything?

Yes.

I’ll tell you whats wrong. There is a gazillion opinions in these forums -not to include the developers’ own ideals- on how the game should ideally be according to what they want.

I also have my own preferences and thoughts about how would I change this game had I owned ArenaNet.

In fact, currently I can say that my ideals for the game probably contradict those of yours. But I also paid for the game much like everybody else. Am I not entitled to what I expected it to be too?

But if Anet try to cater to everybody’s whines and complaints in these forums, its just logically impossible.

If Anet caters for YOUR demands, contradicting mine, why are you more entitled than me if we paid the same amount for a game?

People can dress up their personal demands as “reasonable arguments”, but lets cut the kittenhere, they’re personal demands. Based on individual frustrations, experiences and expectations.

Some people say game is broken. Some people say no. Some people cite a reason, some people cite another. So who is Anet supposed to follow?

It’s easier to change your own individual mentality than trying to get a company to change something for you according to what you believe you have the right to want just because you paid for their product. Anybody should know this by now after years of being a gamer. So I don’t even why people even try in forums and expect a result, aside from having just the avenue to express their frustration.

So with this in mind, it’s either you buy the company or change your mentality of playing.

If it still doesn’t work out for you, THEN we gravitate towards what we eventually usually say: Just don’t play the game.

projectcedric.6951:

Hellkaiser.6025:

Should I just shut up and not say anything?

Yes.

I’ll tell you whats wrong. There is a gazillion opinions in these forums -not to include the developers’ own ideals- on how the game should ideally be according to what they want.

I also have my own preferences and thoughts about how would I change this game had I owned ArenaNet.

In fact, currently I can say that my ideals for the game probably contradict those of yours. But I also paid for the game much like everybody else. Am I not entitled to what I expected it to be too?

But if Anet try to cater to everybody’s whines and complaints in these forums, its just logically impossible.

If Anet caters for YOUR demands, contradicting mine, why are you more entitled than me if we paid the same amount for a game?

People can dress up their personal demands as “reasonable arguments”, but lets cut the kittenhere, they’re personal demands. Based on individual frustrations, experiences and expectations.

Some people say game is broken. Some people say no. Some people cite a reason, some people cite another. So who is Anet supposed to follow?

It’s easier to change your own individual mentality than trying to get a company to change something for you according to what you believe you have the right to want just because you paid for their product. Anybody should know this by now after years of being a gamer. So I don’t even why people even try in forums and expect a result, aside from having just the avenue to express their frustration.

So with this in mind, it’s either you buy the company or change your mentality of playing.

If it still doesn’t work out for you, THEN we gravitate towards what we eventually usually say: Just don’t play the game.

This has some merit after all we do have different tastes, but at as I’ve stated before this game could have been a lot more than it is, and it could cater to both you AND me in our differing views it’s a big game with a big world so why does it have to choose one side of the fence while telling the other to jump off a cliff, it still seems to be to be horrific that the answer to everything ends up as “just stop playing the game” because at that point I feel that I haven’t gotten a game I’ll remember fondly and instead a sour taste in my mouth and a sickening hatred of A-Nets bullpoop marketing.
And yet, here’s the kicker… I still want the game to work out as it seemed to promise at least, I just rarely log in because the game is inherently lacking realistic goals and refuses to properly address the problems with loot, a huge thread sits there as a shining monument to that and it’s kinda sad. So I guess I’ll just continue to vent that disappointment and frustration out on the forum by calling them out on each and every failing, each lack of reasonable goals, every failed event and bug
It’s pointless to ask “have you not got better things to be doing” as that’s actually nobody’s business but my own and that goes for everyone else posting too, the way I see it we’re sitting on those opposing sides of the fence and there ain’t a hope in hell I’m going to sit here quietly leaving the games official forum to get spammed with the usual inane garbage

“omg best rpg evarzarz gunna sell tons at christmas”

and the likes…

But yeah, if you want to cut to the chase, I find it hard to believe anyone would find a game that claims to not want you to grind, and be so grind centric in most of it’s goals to be ANYTHING that ANYONE would consider not inherently broken, and no.. I’m not screaming that it’s a ploy to get you to buy gold from the CS, the CS is broken because it’s designed to resemble a lighter version of many a korean MMO’s CS and not like the superior CS of western games which forego the gambling crap.

projectcedric.6951:

It’s easier to change your own individual mentality than trying to get a company to change something for you according to what you believe you have the right to want just because you paid for their product. Anybody should know this by now after years of being a gamer. So I don’t even why people even try in forums and expect a result, aside from having just the avenue to express their frustration.

So with this in mind, it’s either you buy the company or change your mentality of playing.

If it still doesn’t work out for you, THEN we gravitate towards what we eventually usually say: Just don’t play the game.

I see some wisdom here in the idea that you accept and play the game with its rules the way it’s intended. In particular, the loot system and how we get gear in GW2 is so easy to get what you need, I really don’t see anything that would benefit from changes. There’s a mostly free-floating economy. The only potentially broken part of the game’s economy, it’s those parts that are not gold-based. Everything else, either play it or don’t. Truly you can do everything in the game that fits under “need” without touching the T.P.

@ Hellkaiser:

I perhaps could have phrased it better, but when the OP’s argument contains the line “What really makes pure capitalism a killer, though, is knowing how successful others have been.” then it opens itself up for exactly that sort of criticism. I’m still struggling however to see how my comment is “borderline inflammatory” and “offensive” given I was addressing the OP’s reasoning including an envy factor not calling the OP envious.

I’m not an elitist, I dabble in the TP a little, but actually make most of my gold via crafting, but have found I can spend it almost as fast as I make it, so I haven’t acquired a large bank balance that I feel needs to be defended. I do however like the TP implementation in this game, even though it has its’ flaws and drawbacks.

In terms of arguments against the TP, the OP had a few points he could have developed further rather than focusing on the wealth some people have been able to make.

Here’s one point that the OP could have gone further with:

Stocks, though, are much trickier: you’re basically making money by moving money around. Certainly it’s also a skill, but there is no product, and the rules are murky and reward behaviors that many people in this world consider selfish.

Or even expanding on the points he made that for every TP winner, someone loses would have been better (imo).

Astraea.6075:

@ Hellkaiser:

I perhaps could have phrased it better, but when the OP’s argument contains the line “What really makes pure capitalism a killer, though, is knowing how successful others have been.” then it opens itself up for exactly that sort of criticism. I’m still struggling however to see how my comment is “borderline inflammatory” and “offensive” given I was addressing the OP’s reasoning including an envy factor not calling the OP envious.

I’m not an elitist, I dabble in the TP a little, but actually make most of my gold via crafting, but have found I can spend it almost as fast as I make it, so I haven’t acquired a large bank balance that I feel needs to be defended. I do however like the TP implementation in this game, even though it has its’ flaws and drawbacks.

In terms of arguments against the TP, the OP had a few points he could have developed further rather than focusing on the wealth some people have been able to make.

Here’s one point that the OP could have gone further with:

Stocks, though, are much trickier: you’re basically making money by moving money around. Certainly it’s also a skill, but there is no product, and the rules are murky and reward behaviors that many people in this world consider selfish.

Or even expanding on the points he made that for every TP winner, someone loses would have been better (imo).

And that’s all you probably needed to do, no one’s saying “don’t you dare disagree” just don’t start out with the old chestnut of envy either otherwise you’re setting yourself up for the accusation of being inflammatory even if it’s wrong or not a solid response it’s going to be where they think you’re going with it if that makes sense? saying “that player got a ton of gold and used his gold to bully the market into creating massive false demands” isn’t saying “I wish I’d done that” the intent is that said player could possibly bought said gold via third party means, or via the CS itself and then proceeded to make a killing and as gold is a resource generated by players it’s taking from others to add to your own personal wealth, that’s not inherently wrong so long as they’re getting fair prices for what they’re selling, but honestly is that the case? with all the botters and the sheer lack of value on crafted items over materials can you honestly say that people causing shortages with buyer groups to clean up by flipping is something that you WANT in a game?

Hellkaiser.6025:

This has some merit after all we do have different tastes, but at as I’ve stated before this game could have been a lot more than it is, and it could cater to both you AND me in our differing views it’s a big game with a big world so why does it have to choose one side of the fence while telling the other to jump off a cliff, it still seems to be to be horrific that the answer to everything ends up as “just stop playing the game” because at that point I feel that I haven’t gotten a game I’ll remember fondly and instead a sour taste in my mouth and a sickening hatred of A-Nets bullpoop marketing.
And yet, here’s the kicker… I still want the game to work out as it seemed to promise at least, I just rarely log in because the game is inherently lacking realistic goals and refuses to properly address the problems with loot, a huge thread sits there as a shining monument to that and it’s kinda sad. So I guess I’ll just continue to vent that disappointment and frustration out on the forum by calling them out on each and every failing, each lack of reasonable goals, every failed event and bug
It’s pointless to ask “have you not got better things to be doing” as that’s actually nobody’s business but my own and that goes for everyone else posting too, the way I see it we’re sitting on those opposing sides of the fence and there ain’t a hope in hell I’m going to sit here quietly leaving the games official forum to get spammed with the usual inane garbage

“omg best rpg evarzarz gunna sell tons at christmas”

and the likes…

But yeah, if you want to cut to the chase, I find it hard to believe anyone would find a game that claims to not want you to grind, and be so grind centric in most of it’s goals to be ANYTHING that ANYONE would consider not inherently broken, and no.. I’m not screaming that it’s a ploy to get you to buy gold from the CS, the CS is broken because it’s designed to resemble a lighter version of many a korean MMO’s CS and not like the superior CS of western games which forego the gambling crap.

“Contradicting” is the key word. Means our demands our exclusive. Anet cannot change the system according to your ideal and not go against my ideal. That’s why there’s no solution in which ALL our ideals can be included in the game, no matter how big it is (maybe some people don’t actually want a big game)

The thing with games, you see, is that they are all inherently lacking “realistic” goals. If you say a realistic goal for you would be “to have the best gears” and someone else would say “that’s it?”.

There is no such thing as realistic goals in games. Even in what I considered the best mmorpgs I have played, I can’t help but feel that I just wasted how many hundreds of hours of my life, when I could have spend them doing something else. But it’s not true. Because I had fun.

And that’s the only main important thing about games.

If you’re not having fun playing a particular game at its current version, it’s just not for you. That’s why we say don’t play the game. It doesn’t end there. It means go and find another game that will make you happier.

If this game frustrates you, you already wasted 60 dollars on it, there’s no need to waste your time more by expecting something to happen

There is a chance that what you expected may happen and there’s a chance that it may not. It’s okay if you can accept that and still choose to stay around and be bitter about it. It’s your life.

But the problem is when you start that saying that it’s the game’s fault. It’s not. It’s nobody’s fault.

If you can compare this game to another game which you think is better, then you should be playing that game right now. Not trying to make the developers make this game like that game.

You say “most players”.

Source please ?

Not trying to be a kitten here, but getting gear/gold is NOT a challenge in this game. This DR talk is getting out of hand now. Sure the drops suck a bit at the moment, but it doesn’t cripple anyone who not willing to adapt a little bit.

You start your thread stating you have an issue purely with the DR, then later you go on to complain of other features that you did not raise in your original statement. It is a forum for discussion and you have the right to voice your opinion on any subject you see fit, but the more you debate the more it seems you dislike the game in its current state.

If you do, maybe you should just give GW2 a break and come back when whatever really ails you has been fixed ?

arabeth.2361:

Stocks, though, are much trickier: you’re basically making money by moving money around. Certainly it’s also a skill, but there is no product, and the rules are murky and reward behaviors that many people in this world consider selfish. People aren’t rewarding you: you are taking their money, and they simply don’t understand the system enough to stop you.

How exactly do you think companies raise money to fund growth and create jobs? They release stock is how. After taking that investors money that you think produces nothing and creating jobs and a product they make profit, which then gets paid as a dividend to the shareholder.
Seriously, learn a bit about a subject before you try to bash it from your false moral high ground.

Hellkaiser.6025:

And that’s all you probably needed to do, no one’s saying “don’t you dare disagree” just don’t start out with the old chestnut of envy either otherwise you’re setting yourself up for the accusation of being inflammatory even if it’s wrong or not a solid response it’s going to be where they think you’re going with it if that makes sense?

I can see what you’re saying. I do try to think about how my written words might be interpreted on these forums, so I’ll bear this in mind for future responses. You might however keep in mind the context of comments like the ones I made before writing off the rest of the post.

saying “that player got a ton of gold and used his gold to bully the market into creating massive false demands” isn’t saying “I wish I’d done that” the intent is that said player could possibly bought said gold via third party means, or via the CS itself and then proceeded to make a killing and as gold is a resource generated by players it’s taking from others to add to your own personal wealth, that’s not inherently wrong so long as they’re getting fair prices for what they’re selling, but honestly is that the case? with all the botters and the sheer lack of value on crafted items over materials can you honestly say that people causing shortages with buyer groups to clean up by flipping is something that you WANT in a game?

If that’s the sort of thing the OP is concerned about, then I wish he’d stated it more clearly. I do think the TP does reward some behaviours that aren’t acceptable to a lot of the player base, but I wouldn’t scrap the whole thing because of it.

I’ve managed to find value with crafting items using materials purchased through the TP, and I know others have too. I’m unaware of any shortages caused by buyer groups, but then again, I don’t spend too much time studying individual markets. Generally the market corrects itself pretty quickly after such manipulations.

projectcedric.6951:

snip

You seem to have misinterpreted some of what I said, when I use the term “realistic” I mean in the sense of it’s achievable within reason, or as you said is something that you attain while having fun.

You also take the term “contradicting” as absolute, there’s no such thing as compromise you’re saying? I mean after all it’s not like I’m asking for a huge alteration just an end to the incessant grind or at least more achievable goals with clearer structure to fill that time, the ascended armor was supposed to bridge the gap between legendary and exotic because they felt it was too far, I say it’s still needing more in between it, as for anyone who would consider their legendary to be their endgame past-time/goal this is a huge source of disappointment and frustration.
When most players look at a legendary and think “there’s nothing legendary about farming like a prat for few months or getting your wallet out” then something has been lost in translation.

You also seem to think that decisions in design on this game aren’t anybody’s “fault” and to that I honestly cannot agree as that’s simply a naive statement, there is always somebody behind X change or Y nerf and there’s usuall motivation and it’s NOT always based on good gameplay.

You also use the term goals almost seemingly completely devoid of all sense of progress which is in itself a core aspect of all games you can take a very realistic stance and claim “it’s just a game” but it’s a key element of this form of entertainment and realize it or not it’s mostly what you pay for when you buy a video game, and if it’s lacking in said area then it’s noticed, so without decent progression (and no not just gear etc) them there’s no sense of moving from the spot so to speak, so when a game lacks a way of continually offering us goals to keep us busy, the result is incredibly bland and short lived.

And I can compare this game to many other games in many aspects, and I can see the potential it has, sadly it’s wasted potential and overall feels like a western mmo, with a bitter korean mmo aftertaste. We all know the games I refer to in both aspects of great and bad, it’s pretty obvious which ones are dominating the gaming industry and which are giant bloated piles of garbage regardless of how many people are subscribed or playing them, the point is if you go to the forums of SWTOR or Diablo III, then you will STILL during their DARKEST times of UTTER FAILURE when they were on the cusp of utter shut-down and their community had turned against them in a mass exodus, then you will STILL see players claiming it’s fine… ridiculing the complaints, calling them crybaby’s and whingers or the EA coined phrase “self entitled players” etc etc, and you can’t help but think… Do I want to be the gamer with a strong sense of community that ignores this absolute travesty? do I want to be the one that keeps telling people they’re wrong as they leave in droves? or do I want to be one of the players who’s articulating what’s terrible about the game, and continually posts to remind those that would listen that this game has flaws that need addressing and that they can’t be left unanswered without it having negative repercussions in terms of PR?

For me, I chose the latter a long, long time ago. I refuse to simply let it be seen in this industry that any old tripe you throw out, any old crap that tries to gouge you through random chance gambling boxes will NOT be strongly opposed by the playerbase and that they will leave and make sure that they inform anyone else thinking of buying the game that there are these issues and that there’s no need for them because there are FAR better examples where those issues don’t exust and in games that are MORE successful.

Bitter? perhaps a little, I don’t think that’s unreasonable… but it’s not because I’m a petty person, it’s because I care a lot about the gaming community in general and hate seeing them be promised something amazing only to be handed something that has the shelf life of a badly packaged ham.

Astraea.6075:

While your arguments against “degressive” random chance have some merit, your argument against the TP seems to come down to envy over the profits that some people are making playing the market.

The games I’ve played that have “progressive” random chance tend to have it in place for items that are required or necessary to progress further in the game (i.e. as part of the gear grind), which doesn’t quite apply to GW2 as there really aren’t any gear checks holding you back from content (with the exception of higher levels of fractals).

The TP is not “pure capitalism”, but is a (lightly regulated) competitive marketplace. Capitalism involves private ownership of the means of production and the production of goods and services for profit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism). While those who amass great in-game wealth are able invest heavily in the markets, they cannot take control over the means of production for goods and services (i.e. loot drops, gathering nodes, crafted items) or use that wealth to bar others from entering into the market.

Look, during the first month or so, there was no DR. The no-lifers who play 24/7 got to 80 and received, in that month window, probably more than double what everyone else who came after got in the 2+ months which followed.. cumulatively.

These people got precursors, t6 mats, ectos, and exotics at rates which are ludicrous by today’s standards, and now sit on hundreds of gold inflating the economy and pushing things even further out of reach for the rest of us.

I don’t blame them entirely; ANet produced this situation by nerfing drop rates instead of raising mat requirements — and they continue to nerf the bejesus out of drop rates in a very individually biased way which misses wide on bots and punishes legitimate players en-masse --- many complain of being on permanent DR and not knowing how they got there..

This means that everyone who follows the first-month no-lifers has zero chance, beyond the odds of “winning the lottery”, of ever gaining anything resembling solvency.

It’s a slap in the face to those of us who were sold on a game that was supposed to be paced rather than rushed.

When the game first came out I was recommending it, but now i’m on the fence. The combat is fun, the story compelling to me, but I feel completely unrewarded, and worse, it’s as if ANet has created a system in which the “haves” are permanently ensconsed and flaunt against the have-nots.

Signed – someone who doesn’t farm AT ALL, only does events and dungeons of opportunity, yet somehow remains on permanent DR at all times >.<

Astraea.6075:

TP seems to come down to envy over the profits that some people are making playing the market.

The games I’ve played that have “progressive” random chance tend to have it in place for items that are required or necessary to progress further in the game (i.e. as part of the gear grind), which doesn’t quite apply to GW2 as there really aren’t any gear checks holding you back from content (with the exception of higher levels of fractals).

The TP is not “pure capitalism”, but is a (lightly regulated) competitive marketplace. Capitalism involves private ownership of the means of production and the production of goods and services for profit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism). While those who amass great in-game wealth are able invest heavily in the markets, they cannot take control over the means of production for goods and services (i.e. loot drops, gathering nodes, crafted items) or use that wealth to bar others from entering into the market.

I laughed so hard when I read your post. You are obviously someone who’s in a large enough active guild that is filled with dungeoneers (in a game that was never meant to be about dungeons) who spends his time gathering the large amount of mats that drop only in dungeons at present (even with the current dungeon nerfs) who manipulates the HIGHLY regulated TP and gets large sums of gold from it judging by your reply to this poster.

Seriously. It’s hilarious. First of all, OP is absolutely right, jealous or not. Second, the dungeons in this game were never meant to be the sole focus, in fact their original statements specifically poo pooed the idea of the dungeons being any type of major part of the experience or focus for any part of the game. Third, just because YOU run dungeons to get the stuff you can sell doesn’t mean that’s how this game started out, originally one didn’t have to step one toe in a dungeon, and that’s the way it was meant to be. And finally, the TP is so highly regulated people have been abusing it since the start. They learned the system Anet is using and put in posts that are even under the vendor price STILL to this day making Anet have to go thru and correct them ad nauseum, AND Anet has to put in posts of items of their own to fix many of them. It’s definitely not a fair system at all.

It’s almost impossible to gear your toon the way you want to especially for those who started playing AFTER the loot drop/DR/MF fiasco that we’ve been dealing with for a month now and after the Nov 16th patch without buying gems.

Guild Wars 2 is a game. Most games have gameplay. Gameplay exists when:

- You have some sort of metric for success. (eg. Score, victory conditions, ranking, etc.)

- You have a series of decisions that will influence your success. (however, not all choices are available all players. Choices might depend on reaction speed, hand-eye-coordination, free time, knowledge, personality, etc.)

- You are in competition with someone. (even if “someone” is “my personal best” or “NPC monsters” – you can succeed or fail, so you are in competition.)

GW2 is a game. The TP is part of the game. It also has gameplay.
- Metric for success (Gold, Valuable Items)
- Decisions (What to buy? When to buy/sell? What prices?)
- Competition.

“Making gold” is a competitive game. There are winners and losers. Just because it has the same labels as a real world economy, doesnt mean there’s some kind of Social Justice involved here. There are no starving children in GW2. You don’t deserve gold any more than you deserve glory in PvP, or the highest rank in WvW, or the fastest completion time for a jumping puzzle.

Use of the word “selfish” is just as wrong as using the word “envy”. Gee, I’d really like to win some PvP tournaments, but those darn other players keep killing me and making me lose. They should really stop being so selfish and let me win half the time, y’know?

Of course, it’s perfectly fine to express your dislike about the connection between gameplay mechanics and the success metric. “In WvW, it sucks that you don’t get any points for defending Dolyaks!” “In PvP, it sucks that Bunkers are needed to win matches!” “In the TP, it sucks that traders make the big bucks!”

It’s fine to express your opinions about a -Game Mechanic-, but it’s stupid to express it in terms of morality and justice. “Have-and-have-nots”, “Selfish”, etc.

Ultimately, if you dont enjoy the “Making Gold / Consumerism / Capitalism” gameplay, then don’t play it. I don’t – I buy green equipment, I sell all my materials to fund WP costs, and I don’t bother with wanting “loot” or any ingame items. I don’t care if my character doesn’t have cool armour, or if my items are not best in slot. I don’t care if someone has a marginal advantage over me in WvW.
I simply refuse to take part in those forms of competition – I play WvW for fun, I dress my character up in gear that I like that’s cheap. I don’t worry about not winning in PvP tournaments, or anything else that I don’t enjoy. Similarly, I don’t play jumping puzzles because I don’t enjoy them either.

I stick to the gameplay that I enjoy (combat, progressing through the story, casual PvP, playing with friends, etc.)

But if you choose to participate in the “Making Gold” game, don’t get all self-righteous, indignant or entitled that there are people who are more successful at the game than you. Sure, complain about things you don’t like, but it’s your personal opinion, it’s not social justice, it’s not fairness, it’s not right-and-wrong, any more than me not winning tournaments in PvP.

As for DR, farming is gameplay. Why do people feel “entitled” to a certain drop rate? If we want to talk about real life, if you cut down trees all the time, eventually there won’t be any left. There’s no god-given law saying that drop rates have to be constant or high or even fair. It’s gameplay – there are mechanics, and those that take best advantage of those mechanics will have the greatest success.

Again, feel free to complain about the reward mechanics – you might feel that it’s better if successful farming is easier to achieve by everyone, without so many mechanics to manipulate to achieve success. But in most other areas of gameplay, people call that “dumbing down” or “casualisation”, so don’t be surprised if many people disagree with you.

Finally, regarding paid random chests and other gambling mechanics, I’m fine with it being in the game. It’s not some terrible greedy conspiracy, it’s just a company trying to make money.
Since I don’t like gambling, I simply don’t play the “gambling” game. Instead, people who DO play are funding my gaming – they pay more money, the company keeps running/adds content, I don’t have to pay any more. I don’t see how that’s a bad thing.

ChairGraveyard.2967:

projectcedric.6951:

ChairGraveyard.2967:

No, but you can easily define things that aren’t fun.

In an RPG, a genre which has and always will be heavily influence by loot, having insanely low drop chance loot and nerfing drop rates into the ground is the antithesis of fun.

GW2 has some of the worst loot of any RPG game, period.

You know, during the golden days of the Ragnarok Online private servers, most servers have increased drop chances -like x25, x100, x1000- in response to the horrible loot drop rate of the original client.

Once in a while, you’d come across a “x1 drop chance” server. I wonder why.

Maybe because some people actually found it more fun that way. Why? I dont know. Why do some people like pink and others dont?

Irrelevant anecdote.

Unsubstantiated dismissal.

Rieselle.5079:

if you cut down trees all the time, eventually there won’t be any left. There’s no god-given law saying that drop rates have to be constant or high or even fair.

A specious analogy.

A proper one would be a christmas tree farm.

You grow trees, cut them down periodically, and sell them, and by doing that you make a decent living.

Then someone (ANet) comes along and routinely torches your forest while it’s still growing.

Are you going to continue farming christmas trees(playing the game)?

plasmacutter.2709:

Rieselle.5079:

if you cut down trees all the time, eventually there won’t be any left. There’s no god-given law saying that drop rates have to be constant or high or even fair.

A specious analogy.

A proper one would be a christmas tree farm.

You grow trees, cut them down periodically, and sell them, and by doing that you make a decent living.

Then someone (ANet) comes along and routinely torches your forest while it’s still growing.

Are you going to continue farming christmas trees(playing the game)?

ANet is not “someone” – ANet is the creator of the game. They are the god of Tyria, the artificial reality, the laws of physics, whatever you want to call it.

If they want to decide that farming too long in one location causes drop rates to go down, it’s their prerogative , just like if they decide that you should fall at a certain speed or be able to jump at a certain height.

You don’t grow christmas trees – they are designed to grow by ANet. You don’t “make a living” in GW2, decent or otherwise – you receive a reward by navigating game mechanics. Game mechanics designed by ANet. They’re not torching YOUR christmas trees. They’re making design decisions about THEIR game. Your analogy is delusional.

Like I said, feel free to complain about game mechanics.
But it’s just your opinon – it’s stupid to claim some sort of moral justification. “I’m just trying to make a living here, and evil, evil ANet is coming along and forcing me to suffer in poverty! Woe is me!”

Personally, my preferred loot system is one with physical constraints and limits. There are X million tons of gold in the ground, and if everyone dug it all up, it’ll all be gone. You’ll have to steal it from other players once there’s no gold left to mine, etc.

I’ll cheerfully complain about the current loot system in support of my preferred loot system, but I’m mature enough to realise it’s just my opinion. It’s not life-and-death, its not good-and-evil.

. You don’t “make a living” in GW2, decent or otherwise – you receive a reward by succeeding in a game.

oh if only I did.

I’ve soloed plenty of champions that normally take a group and received nothing for them but trophy items.

I’ve spent 45 minutes killing jormag and see at most 3 blues.

Like I said, feel free to complain about game mechanics. But it’s stupid to claim some sort of moral justification

I’m SAVING TYRIA and while i’m doing it i’m living hand to mouth barely covering waypoint fees!

I’d say theres some moral justification in it.

ANet is not “someone” – ANet is the creator of the game. They are the god of Tyria,

Oh please, now look who is trying to load on the morality here. They want my money, but their loot system makes me feel thoroughly unrewarded, especially in that they program it to “play favorites” consistently. I wouldn’t care about rares and exotics being infrequent if it were that way for everyone, but it’s not the case, and that’s waved in my face every day.

I have every right to say I feel unrewarded for my effort, and consider that wrong.

plasmacutter.2709:

. You don’t “make a living” in GW2, decent or otherwise – you receive a reward by succeeding in a game.

oh if only I did.

I’ve soloed plenty of champions that normally take a group and received nothing for them but trophy items.

I’ve spent 45 minutes killing jormag and see at most 3 blues.

Like I said, feel free to complain about game mechanics. But it’s stupid to claim some sort of moral justification

I’m SAVING TYRIA and while i’m doing it i’m living hand to mouth barely covering waypoint fees!

I’d say theres some moral justification in it.

ANet is not “someone” – ANet is the creator of the game. They are the god of Tyria,

Oh please, now look who is trying to load on the morality here. They want my money, but their loot system makes me feel thoroughly unrewarded, especially in that they program it to “play favorites” consistently. I wouldn’t care about rares and exotics being infrequent if it were that way for everyone, but it’s not the case, and that’s waved in my face every day.

I have every right to say I feel unrewarded for my effort, and consider that wrong.

You’re delusional. You’re not saving Tyria, you’re playing a game. The reward for killing a Champion is exactly what you got – ANet decides how valuable your “achievement” is, not you.

My use of the word “God” is unrelated to morality. It’s simply facts – they created this world, they are its god.

You have every right to say how you feel. But your feelings aren’t more or less correct than anyone elses.

Personally, I feel unrewarded by Meteor Shower. Meteor Shower looks terrible in this game. The Meteor Showers in Diablo 3 and Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance were far more awesome looking, and rewarding to look at.

OMG I’m feeling unrewarded, ANet are evil people doing wrong things!

Like I said – it’s a game, there’s gameplay mechanics, and success/failure. If you feel like other people are getting rewarded more, then they are simply playing the game better than you are.

For example, I have plenty of gold, but I don’t farm or care about loot drops. I have plenty of gold because I don’t buy expensive stuff. If you have less gold than me, then you’re making bad choices and failing at the game. You don’t deserve the same amount of gold as me, any more than you deserve the same ladder rank in Starcraft or the same high score in Space Invaders.

ANet decides how valuable your “achievement” is, not you.

welcome to the world of capitalism:

The Customer Is Always Right

ANet makes this game for players

You have every right to say how you feel. But your feelings aren’t more or less correct than anyone elses.

I will repeat to you, again, since you seem to think starting a company makes you a king:

The Customer Is Always Right

when you have a thread 2000 replies long with 35k views and 3 out of 4 people agreeing with the complaints, you have a customer service problem, and the customers are not wrong

If you want to have a fiefdom, go buy a spread in north dakota and be the county’s only resident, but this game doesn’t belong to ANet, it belongs to the players, to the customers

And ANet if you’re reading, reiselle here and the lack of replies to said thread with 35k views ha convinced me not to buy a single gem until the loot problem is fixed.

Welcome to the golden rule reiselle: I have the gold, I make the rules, and 75% of the playerbase, according to that thread, agree with me.

plasmacutter.2709:

ANet decides how valuable your “achievement” is, not you.

welcome to the world of capitalism:

The Customer Is Always Right

ANet makes this game for players

You have every right to say how you feel. But your feelings aren’t more or less correct than anyone elses.

I will repeat to you, again, since you seem to think starting a company makes you a king:

The Customer Is Always Right

when you have a thread 2000 replies long with 35k views and 3 out of 4 people agreeing with the complaints, you have a customer service problem, and the customers are not wrong

If you want to have a fiefdom, go buy a spread in north dakota and be the county’s only resident, but this game doesn’t belong to ANet, it belongs to the players, to the customers

And ANet if you’re reading, reiselle here and the lack of replies to said thread with 35k views ha convinced me not to buy a single gem until the loot problem is fixed.

Welcome to the golden rule reiselle: I have the gold, I make the rules, and 75% of the playerbase, according to that thread, agree with me.

http://notalwaysright.com/

Welcome to the world of capitalism. Companies charge what the market will bear.

You can whine all you want, but as long as people are paying money, then there’s no problem. If people stop paying money, then ANet will pay attention.

The game doesn’t “belong” to anyone. (well, technically it belongs to NCSoft since they are the publisher and own the IP.)

However, the game is entirely controlled by ANet since they control the source code, the servers, and everything else. You can put words in my mouth all you want, but that’s the reality and kings have nothing to do with it.

Lol, I thought you have no gold? Isn’t that your entire point? :P

So anyways, try to get a sense of perspective here. You’re not educating ANet, me, or anyone on the morality of the world. You’re expressing your preferences as a player. (and heck, my preferences aren’t necessarily different – I just hate the whiney tone and sense of entitlement of that kind of person.)

If enough players agree with you, and vote with their wallets, then ANet will take notice. Since I play the parts of the game I enjoy, and I don’t bother with this part that you have a problem with, it doesnt matter to me either way, really.

Ya, theres people going to be making more money than you, better than you, l2p. Be the best you can be and that should make you happy.

Sorry for cutting some stuff out, too long.

Rieselle.5079:

GW2 is a game. The TP is part of the game. It also has gameplay.
- Metric for success (Gold, Valuable Items)
- Decisions (What to buy? When to buy/sell? What prices?)
- Competition.

“Making gold” is a competitive game.

Well sorry, some of us didn’t come to play economy wars. Some high prices are a combination of rarity, diminishing returns and player manipulation. So OP has some merit. And I believe that the main complaint is crazy prices not being poor.

Rieselle.5079:

As for DR, farming is gameplay. Why do people feel “entitled” to a certain drop rate? If we want to talk about real life, if you cut down trees all the time, eventually there won’t be any left. There’s no god-given law saying that drop rates have to be constant or high or even fair. It’s gameplay – there are mechanics, and those that take best advantage of those mechanics will have the greatest success.

DR was implemented out of the blue after launch. It doesn’t really fit with the statements of the devs (our game is about fun and nongrindy hurr – check my sig). And your statement about RL is really inappropriate, what trees, it’s pixels, unlimited pixels. Why the need to be constrained by same things as in RL? Why the need for massive time/gold sinks (go farm charged lodestones for example…)-

Oh sure, you can accept the game as is, or you can leave it. But if it was bought under premise of being different, you kinda expect something different. I (and many others) expected low grind + wide variety of stuff to do/get….see, timewise it can be the same, only in 1st case, you grind your kitten off for 1 item, in the other, you get multiple items/titles/whatevers….guess which kind would most people (that I know) prefer.

Jairlyn.1429:

How exactly do you think companies raise money to fund growth and create jobs? They release stock is how. After taking that investors money that you think produces nothing and creating jobs and a product they make profit, which then gets paid as a dividend to the shareholder.
Seriously, learn a bit about a subject before you try to bash it from your false moral high ground.

Omg how exactly do they fund and create jobs, because there are only stock markets and nothing else. All those companies that aren’t on the market exist since the dawn of time and stagnate.

Anyway, stockmarket is in theory a good idea but as usual, greed ruins it. Investor expectations and pressure, profit orientation even on expense of employees and long-term growth, short term speculation (go do some research how much of the stock market volume is being generated by bots. Do you think bots care for the companies and their wellbeing? ), statements padding, insider trading…need I go on? Do you even realise how much crap is being done to manipulate stocks/statements (can include commodities markets here also, and hey, let’s throw in some forex while I’m at it altho that’s harder to manipulate, but it can be done) that never becomes public knowledge?

Rieselle.5079:

plasmacutter.2709:

Rieselle.5079:

if you cut down trees all the time, eventually there won’t be any left. There’s no god-given law saying that drop rates have to be constant or high or even fair.

A specious analogy.

A proper one would be a christmas tree farm.

You grow trees, cut them down periodically, and sell them, and by doing that you make a decent living.

Then someone (ANet) comes along and routinely torches your forest while it’s still growing.

Are you going to continue farming christmas trees(playing the game)?

ANet is not “someone” – ANet is the creator of the game. They are the god of Tyria, the artificial reality, the laws of physics, whatever you want to call it.

If they want to decide that farming too long in one location causes drop rates to go down, it’s their prerogative , just like if they decide that you should fall at a certain speed or be able to jump at a certain height.

You don’t grow christmas trees – they are designed to grow by ANet. You don’t “make a living” in GW2, decent or otherwise – you receive a reward by navigating game mechanics. Game mechanics designed by ANet. They’re not torching YOUR christmas trees. They’re making design decisions about THEIR game. Your analogy is delusional.

Like I said, feel free to complain about game mechanics.
But it’s just your opinon – it’s stupid to claim some sort of moral justification. “I’m just trying to make a living here, and evil, evil ANet is coming along and forcing me to suffer in poverty! Woe is me!”

Personally, my preferred loot system is one with physical constraints and limits. There are X million tons of gold in the ground, and if everyone dug it all up, it’ll all be gone. You’ll have to steal it from other players once there’s no gold left to mine, etc.

I’ll cheerfully complain about the current loot system in support of my preferred loot system, but I’m mature enough to realise it’s just my opinion. It’s not life-and-death, its not good-and-evil.

Please dont mention anet in the same sentance as our creator. Our creator made the perfect game, its balanced perfectly, dont believe me, check the atom, its balanced otherwise we wouldnt exist, and he left it ALONE after he made it, he doesnt change the rules as the game goes on. That is the hallmark of a great game and creator. But in the end we’re all players in someones game, someones crude version of a higher reality we cant see, unless we decide to quit/unsubscribe/suicide the game we are playing. Go.

Lol, I thought you have no gold? Isn’t that your entire point? :P

Not in-game. Of course, you have to satisfy yourself attempting to claim the high ground on an internet message board.

No, my gold is in real life, something you are eminently unfamiliar with.

“The bucks stop here” — literally.

Dont stop at quitting guild wars and mmo’s, but life too! Its just a game as well, and we wont see the real reality unless we quit. Go.

plasmacutter.2709:

Not in-game. Of course, you have to satisfy yourself attempting to claim the high ground on an internet message board.

No, my gold is in real life, something you are eminently unfamiliar with.

“The bucks stop here” — literally.

Anyways, now that we have descended to personal attacks, it’s time to move on.

I thought it was interesting that you made a post in another thread that your preferred solution is to increase materials required for things, rather than lower drop rates, because you felt unfairly punished compared to those that farmed before the introduction of DR.

But wait – doesnt your proposed solution punish all the non-farmers out there, who simply play through the game normally, never trigger DR in either case, and get whatever items/materials they happen to find? Suddenly the bar is raised for them for no reason, just to keep you happy?

Presumably “unfair punishment” only applies when you feel you’re at a disadvantage compared to others.

Raf.1078:

Define fun. You can’t.

Its purely subjective to each players experience and to add another highly subjective descriptor…their mood.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fun

Novalight.7568:

DR was implemented out of the blue after launch. It doesn’t really fit with the statements of the devs (our game is about fun and nongrindy hurr – check my sig). And your statement about RL is really inappropriate, what trees, it’s pixels, unlimited pixels. Why the need to be constrained by same things as in RL? Why the need for massive time/gold sinks (go farm charged lodestones for example…)-

Why the need for deaths? Why the need for down state? Why the need for Gold and Trading in the first place? Why not make everything soulbound and make a game that doesn’t have an economy? Why the need to have male characters? Why not make every character female? Why do we have gravity? Why can we jump in GW2, but not in GW1?

Ultimately, when someone makes a game, they make all sorts of arbitrary decisions about how it should work. Some of those decisions are informed by how other games work. Some of those decisions are informed by things that exist in reality. And some of those decisions are designed to shape player behaviour or experience. Or extract real life money from those easily tempted.

All market economies involve competition between players. There will always be winners and losers. If you didn’t sign up to play Economy Wars, then buy all your gear with Karma and don’t participate in the economy.

But actually you probably -do- want to play economy wars – you just want the rules changed to suit your preferences a bit more. That’s fine – just like those people who want to remove down state, just like me who wants Meteor Shower to have much better graphics, it’s fine if people want to express their opinion about game mechanics.

I don’t really get this degressive thing, I usually come out from explorable dungeons with more gold (we used to run AC or CoF exp runs for gold in the guild). And I didn’t even understood what you were saying about not getting tokens, because you get tokens (that is, if you do explorable dungeons)…?

Btw, am I the only one who doesn’t play the game for loot? I never had an MF gear on me so far. I’m full exotic with 2 different sets with zero grind. At least nothing felt grindy so far. Whatever you do in this game, gets you gold, and then you just buy your gear on the TP, plus you go some explorable dungeons and buy the rest from tokens. I just don’t get what you’re saying…

About TP, I wouldn’t know, because I don’t craft, you can enjoy this game (and other MMOs as well) without any mondatory crafting. I just get gold with things which are fun for me, then buy what I want. I won’t have a legendary ever, but I don’t really care tbh. I don’t need it to have fun. I’m having fun by playing with my guildies, I play whenever I like, I’m doing whatever I like – and don’t do what I don’t like, e.g. I don’t grind for legendary – and enjoying the game for what it is, not for what I want it to transform into… Sure, the game has it’s flaws, some of them are big as well, but some complains are quite ridicilous. Some people need to get a life. And this game is exactly good for it, because it gives you so much more free time than other MMOs.

reiselle:

they have “arbitrarily” created a game where the pinnacle of achievement are legendaries.

they then “arbitrarily” nerfed drop rates into the ground in a way in which a significant fraction of the playerbase is more impacted then others.

then, they “arbitrarily” failed to correct for massive market distortion from exploitation.

The result:
their arbitrary pinnacle of success moves further and further out of reach for the vast majority of the playing population.

Strayhand.8216:

Btw, am I the only one who doesn’t play the game for loot? I never had an MF gear on me so far. I’m full exotic with 2 different sets with zero grind. At least nothing felt grindy so far. Whatever you do in this game, gets you gold, and then you just buy your gear on the TP, plus you go some explorable dungeons and buy the rest from tokens. I just don’t get what you’re saying…

You’re not the only one who doesn’t play for loot.

Personally I like games such as Dark Souls, which has almost no economic features at all. No currency, no trading, no random drops. Just pure RPG stats, adventuring and combat. Contrast with Diablo 3, which I quit as soon as I got 2 characters to max level. Yikes, D3’s forums, what a cesspool of envy, greed, entitlement, jealousy, whines. That’s the sort of player you attract when you design a game that revolves entirely around loot.

Like you, I just play the game normally, buy what I can afford, and play the content I enjoy. I’ve never farmed, never grinded, I rarely even repeat content unless I want to play it again.

Most of my friends play in a similar way, but they are much smarter than me and avoid MMO forums like the plague. That’s why you don’t hear about players like us – mostly the whiney ones come here (me included!)

Rieselle.5079:

Strayhand.8216:

Btw, am I the only one who doesn’t play the game for loot? I never had an MF gear on me so far. I’m full exotic with 2 different sets with zero grind. At least nothing felt grindy so far. Whatever you do in this game, gets you gold, and then you just buy your gear on the TP, plus you go some explorable dungeons and buy the rest from tokens. I just don’t get what you’re saying…

You’re not the only one who doesn’t play for loot.

Personally I like games such as Dark Souls, which has almost no economic features at all. No currency, no trading, no random drops. Just pure RPG stats, adventuring and combat. Contrast with Diablo 3, which I quit as soon as I got 2 characters to max level. Yikes, D3’s forums, what a cesspool of envy, greed, entitlement, jealousy. That’s the sort of player you attract when you design a game that revolves entirely around loot.

Like you, I just play the game normally, buy what I can afford, and play the content I enjoy. I’ve never farmed, never grinded, I rarely even repeat content unless I want to play it again.

Most of my friends play in a similar way, but they are much smarter than me and avoid MMO forums like the plague. That’s why you don’t hear about players like us – mostly the whiney ones come here (me included!)

I was hoping GW2 would be less centered on grind and having to worry about gear, but the following is what actualy happened:

Day 1 to day 10 of release:
A subset of the community, likely fresh out of WoW, thwarts the efforts of the devs to make an engaging world by bum-rushing to 80 and farming Orr DE’s, collecting tons of exotics, crafting their legendaries without it feeling grindy (as Anet intended), and becoming filthy rich.

At the same time, A subset of this subset begins to figure out exploits to gain yet MORE money.

Meanwhile, the average player who was sold on a relaxed pace is poking around at lvl 20, having fun (GASP), not realizing that the economy is already starting to inflate out of control.

Finally, ANet comes in, and instead of taking efforts to mitigate income inequality produced by this, they clamp the valves shut on all legitimate sources of gold, insuring the dominance of those who exploited or thwarted the intent of the game

Which brings us to now:
The average price of a precursor rises faster than the income of a non-exploiting, normal player.

Obliterated is the ANet concept of gameplay, where you play at your own pace and gradually attain things like legendaries, they are now permanently out of reach

They will never eventually get there. They are faced with a choice: Jump on the fractals treadmill or face the idea that their gaming experience will be permanently lesser than the peers who came before them.