Guild Wars 2

so ive been level 80 now since a couple of days after the headstart and im still enjoying the game as a whole, made 8 characters(1 of each profession) and am having fun leveling them even though some people hate replaying content I don’t mind it. I also usually just completely avoid PvP in MMOs but for some reason im hooked on both forms of PvP in GW2.

One thing that is bothering me about the game is the lack of progression on a PvE side, now I know some people will say “why do you need progression, just play the game for fun” and thats fine but im one of these people who love to work towards something and put effort in to achieve it.

I know I could just farm for a legendary since that seems to be the PvE endgame objective, and thats what is bothering me. The main PvE endgame consists of farming and only farming, its not fun.

Now I like that they have removed the gear treadmill but the problem with that is they have not replaced it with anything else, my idea of how PvE endgame in GW2 would be you have the explorable paths but they are locked and you have to do the first one, then the second etc until you get to the last path and at they end of it you defeat the main boss of the dungeon and recieve a unique skin for it. Doing it this way would allow people who like progression to have it, but it would not be a requirement.

so I would just like to hear everyone elses thoughts on the endgame of GW2 and what they are doing with their time in game, because right now I spend most of my time standing in LA and could people see Anet doing something like the aforementioned dungeon path in order thing.

If your gear gets better but the bosses get tougher, the gear is only a gating mechanic anyway. It doesn’t actually net you any benefit, it’s purely cosmetic. You can still get your cosmetic upgrades if you want.

I made a topic about this, sadly was moved to “linksville” ~ feel free ta check it out and maybe jump on the suggestions forums ta give ANet a few ideas of your own.

LINK::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/links/Rewarding-Gear-Treadmill

Mammoth.1975:

If your gear gets better but the bosses get tougher, the gear is only a gating mechanic anyway. It doesn’t actually net you any benefit, it’s purely cosmetic. You can still get your cosmetic upgrades if you want.

I have no problem with upgrades being purely cosmetic, but its the way they are obtained that bothers me.

Have you gotten 100% map completion?
Have you done all paths and obtained Dungeon Master?

Because Anet does not drip feed players an obvious PvE endgame, you can go ahead and do whatever you want. Get all 8 crafting professions, kill all the dragon lieutenants.

It’s a good thing that PvP excites you because this is personally my ultimate end game. Once I understand all professions in a friendly PvE environment, I feel like I can understand the smaller details of sPvP and WvW (sPvP more importantly. Paid tournaments is such an excitement).

You want artificial gating, preventing you from accessing content A until you’ve done content B? Interesting.

Mammoth.1975:

You want artificial gating, preventing you from accessing content A until you’ve done content B? Interesting.

essentially yes, I want that feeling of progression and working towards something rather than having it all handed to you on a plate.

Millenx.7905:

Mammoth.1975:

You want artificial gating, preventing you from accessing content A until you’ve done content B? Interesting.

essentially yes, I want that feeling of progression and working towards something rather than having it all handed to you on a plate.

Having to do everything in a linear “content A then content B” is not the opposite of being given everything on a plate.

It’s the opposite of being able to choose which content you want to participate in instead of having to go through a chain of previous content to access that specific bit.

It’s not a case of one way being hard and the other way giving you free rewards unless that’s the developers intention. Fighting a harder boss with better gear isn’t necessarily harder because the better gear nullifies part of the advantage that the harder boss has.

having better gear would not nullify the advantage a harder boss has if the boss is harder because it has more challenging mechanics, instead of the industry standard of, to make a boss harder you pump it full of hp and make it do a ton of damage when it hits you.

Jestunhi.7429:

Millenx.7905:

Mammoth.1975:

You want artificial gating, preventing you from accessing content A until you’ve done content B? Interesting.

essentially yes, I want that feeling of progression and working towards something rather than having it all handed to you on a plate.

Having to do everything in a linear “content A then content B” is not the opposite of being given everything on a plate.

It’s the opposite of being able to choose which content you want to participate in instead of having to go through a chain of previous content to access that specific bit.

It’s not a case of one way being hard and the other way giving you free rewards unless that’s the developers intention. Fighting a harder boss with better gear isn’t necessarily harder because the better gear nullifies part of the advantage that the harder boss has.

It’s funny tho, isn’t it?

People go on and on about “freedom of choice” ~ yet completely ignore what that mentality promotes.

IE: Anyone can do it, why care?

Sure it’s GREAT for the user base, that doesn’t want to be tied down to one game.. but that is also the problem.

People that get into GW2 have no reason to stick around.

IE: Sure it was fun for a while.. but there’s no sense of “ownership” or strife they’ve had to endure, in order to progress ~ Unless you think grinding for legendary weapons is a “must” for everyone.

At the end of the day, the only argument fans have.. is that it’s “fun” for them. ~ So if you’re not having fun, then it’s not the games fault.

It’s pretty sad to see, that fans are their own worst enemy ~ in that proclaiming your game doesn’t need to change, only means it will rot and stagnate.

Who said the game didn’t have to change?

Not wanting artificial gating is the not same as not wanting new content or changes to existing systems / content, nor is it the same as not wanting challenging mechanics.

Jestunhi.7429:

Who said the game didn’t have to change?

Not wanting artificial gating is the not same as not wanting new content or changes to existing systems / content, nor is it the same as not wanting challenging mechanics.

Think you missed the point..
IE: Your point of view is that “gates are bad” ~ thus you cannot see how to utilize them without making the game a grind.

Based on that stance alone ~ YES, you are saying you don’t want GW2 to change.

AlexanderFaust.4518:

Jestunhi.7429:

Who said the game didn’t have to change?

Not wanting artificial gating is the not same as not wanting new content or changes to existing systems / content, nor is it the same as not wanting challenging mechanics.

Think you missed the point..
IE: Your point of view is that “gates are bad” ~ thus you cannot see how to utilize them without making the game a grind.

Based on that stance alone ~ YES, you are saying you don’t want GW2 to change.

I think you missed the point…

Not liking a specific change != not liking change.

Instead of telling me I’m wrong, how about you explain why it would be an improvement?

Jestunhi.7429:

AlexanderFaust.4518:

Jestunhi.7429:

Who said the game didn’t have to change?

Not wanting artificial gating is the not same as not wanting new content or changes to existing systems / content, nor is it the same as not wanting challenging mechanics.

Think you missed the point..
IE: Your point of view is that “gates are bad” ~ thus you cannot see how to utilize them without making the game a grind.

Based on that stance alone ~ YES, you are saying you don’t want GW2 to change.

I think you missed the point…

Not liking a specific change != not liking change.

Instead of telling me I’m wrong, how about you explain why it would be an improvement?

Ok, let me be a bit more transparent for ya then::
Point = Just because YOU cannot see something, doesn’t mean it cannot work.

Gated content works multiple ways.. in more than just “gear score requirements ta get into dungeon/raid”.

It also promotes a sense of “ownership” or attachment to your character and the game it’s a part of.

Much like:
League of Legends has IP/Runes/Champs/Skins.
WoW has Raid Epics and is a “Subscription” MMO.

Some first person shooters also have Ranked PvP that “levels up” on a seperate path from the main champagne.. thus the more you play, the better you get and the more “neat” stuff you unlock for use in PvP and PvE/Champagne.

The problem with GW2 is that you get pretty much “everything” from the get go and leveling is a breeze ~ thus there’s nothing to actually work towards.. and without said “gates”, people aren’t attached to their accounts.

Anywho, lunch break is almost over, so when I get home later today, I’ll come back ta give you a few more PvE examples.

Unless someone else chimes in before then.

I’d also recommend ya check out my other topics.. more specifically::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/links/Rewarding-Gear-Treadmill/first#post422003

Still no mention of how it would be an improvement…

The 1st Guild Wars didn’t have progression but it had 2 things GW2 doesn’t.

Compelling, difficult group instances.
A deep combat/skill system.

Dungeons are not implemented well in this game imo. I suspect most agree considering how empty the entrances are. UW and FoW were a lot more fun, partially because of the zones but mostly because of the far superior classes.

Classes in GW2 are very restrictive. They have less depth than just about any other game in the genre. Weapon skills were a terrible idea, and the customization you do have is very uninspiring. This is a gigantic step backwards not only for the series, but for the genre.

I think this is the real problem with Guild Wars 2. It simply isn’t that fun to play with such simple, restricted classes. They streamlined everything so much we are left with a pure paint by numbers experience and it simply gets old really, really quickly.

Jestunhi.7429:

Still no mention of how it would be an improvement…

Then you’re just blind?
IE: You aren’t willing to see “how” it can work and would rather just down play it.

Which is fine ~ but until you open your eyes, you may want to avoid topics like this.

~ Just my 2 cents ~

AlexanderFaust.4518:

Jestunhi.7429:

Still no mention of how it would be an improvement…

Then you’re just blind?
IE: You aren’t willing to see “how” it can work and would rather just down play it.

Which is fine ~ but until you open your eyes, you may want to avoid topics like this.

~ Just my 2 cents ~

Explaining how something works is not explaining how it would be an improvement to implement it.

For the love of god, TELL ME WHY IT SHOULD BE DONE, NOT WHAT IT IS.

Millenx.7905:

essentially yes, I want that feeling of progression and working towards something rather than having it all handed to you on a plate.

Wrong game then.
GW2 PvE is like TES, you complete the main story and then it’s all about discovering and enjoying the game itself.

ive been 80 on my ranger for awhile now, and id like to be able to buy the more expensive armors but staying in orr farming risen is just so boring to me that it makes me wonder if ill ever take the time to farm enough gold or karma to get any of the end game stuff. to me what would change this is if maybe they added in a hard mode like in gw1 and let me start over and replay all the heart quests and areas over again. it would remove having to stay in one area just because thats where the best stuff drops. it would let me experience all the areas including my favorite ones all over again with the chance of being able to get good stuff without having to only do the higher end zones.

Red Falcon.8257:

Millenx.7905:

essentially yes, I want that feeling of progression and working towards something rather than having it all handed to you on a plate.

Wrong game then.
GW2 PvE is like TES, you complete the main story and then it’s all about discovering and enjoying the game itself.

They removed the ability to really build a character.
They removed the holy trinity.
They removed progression.

And they replaced it with…..zergs. Honestly once the new and shiny wears off there isn’t much left but to wander around a theme park world pretending to be an explorer. It’s no fun exploring when everything is so easy and streamlined imo. It’s more like being a tourist than an adventurer.

Bottom line is they removed the best parts of the previous game and replaced them with mainstream, themepark elements that are closer to WoW than GW1.

Again, the gutted classes don’t help either.

AlexanderFaust.4518:

… why should people “create an alt and explore the rest of the content” or even bother getting 100% on their main, IF they don’t enjoy what they’ve already experienced in GW2?

The main reason I quit was due to an inability to find anyone ta do anything with.. and I’ve got 2 lv80’s ~ a Necro and Elementalist ~ 6 crafting professions at lv400.. and yet like the screenshot I’ve attached to this, you can see that I’ve not gotten past lv26 on my personal stories nor any more than 44% on world completion.

I’ve been to Orr, I’ve fought dragons and I’ve died in dungeon..

Long story short, not even server hoping or guild prostituting helped me find anyone that wanted to actually “experience” the game.. despite server hoping to more “populated” servers for a few weeks.

So why do people troll the forums when they’re already moved on from the game? Go play Dark Souls… or xcom, TL2, BL2 or any of the other awesome games that are out now.

pandemos.3497:

AlexanderFaust.4518:

… why should people “create an alt and explore the rest of the content” or even bother getting 100% on their main, IF they don’t enjoy what they’ve already experienced in GW2?

The main reason I quit was due to an inability to find anyone ta do anything with.. and I’ve got 2 lv80’s ~ a Necro and Elementalist ~ 6 crafting professions at lv400.. and yet like the screenshot I’ve attached to this, you can see that I’ve not gotten past lv26 on my personal stories nor any more than 44% on world completion.

I’ve been to Orr, I’ve fought dragons and I’ve died in dungeon..

Long story short, not even server hoping or guild prostituting helped me find anyone that wanted to actually “experience” the game.. despite server hoping to more “populated” servers for a few weeks.

So why do people troll the forums when they’re already moved on from the game? Go play Dark Souls… or xcom, TL2, BL2 or any of the other awesome games that are out now.

Why do you tell people to not give criticism? Just pointing out the circular nature of that argument.

On a side note, Xcom is excellent and I am going to go play it right now so maybe you’re right lol.

Yes.
Getting to the level cap and then running dungeons to get obsolete gear is better.
Running the T784 raid to get obsolete gear is great.
Running the T785 raid to get slightly less obsolete gear is a wonderful thing.
Running the T786 raid to get gear that will be obsolete when the T787 raid comes out is a timeworthy endevor.

New expansion comes out so all previous gear is obsolete.
Get to new level cap.
Run dungeons to get obsolete gear.
Run the T9,000,000,000 raid to get obsolete gear.
etc
etc
etc.

Yes…“progression”

MrThebigcheese.2014:

pandemos.3497:

AlexanderFaust.4518:

… why should people “create an alt and explore the rest of the content” or even bother getting 100% on their main, IF they don’t enjoy what they’ve already experienced in GW2?

The main reason I quit was due to an inability to find anyone ta do anything with.. and I’ve got 2 lv80’s ~ a Necro and Elementalist ~ 6 crafting professions at lv400.. and yet like the screenshot I’ve attached to this, you can see that I’ve not gotten past lv26 on my personal stories nor any more than 44% on world completion.

I’ve been to Orr, I’ve fought dragons and I’ve died in dungeon..

Long story short, not even server hoping or guild prostituting helped me find anyone that wanted to actually “experience” the game.. despite server hoping to more “populated” servers for a few weeks.

So why do people troll the forums when they’re already moved on from the game? Go play Dark Souls… or xcom, TL2, BL2 or any of the other awesome games that are out now.

Why do you tell people to not give criticism? Just pointing out the circular nature of that argument.

On a side note, Xcom is excellent and I am going to go play it right now so maybe you’re right lol.

@MrThebigcheese
Ya, I’ll try Xcom in a bit.. still playing Torchlight 2.

As for Pandemos ~ I’m not sure why people like him goto other topics, to grab “pieces” of my posts only to misquote me or my intentions.

Basically, I stated that I’m here ta help ANet evolve GW2, because I feel it has potential.

In reality, I’ve seen countless threads in the suggestions area.. many of which are very well thought out and would improve GW2 greatly! ~

However, like many of the nay-Sayers here.. no one seems to care =/

They’re far more interested in telling other people they they’re playing GW2 “wrong” and/or expecting too much from it.

lol, imagine IF the Knights put half as much effort into making legit suggestions to improving GW2 as they do trolling the forums…

But then again, IF they did that.. they would just be trolled by other “fans/knights” or be completely ignored anyways..

#the vicious cycle ~

There you go AF, boasting and patting yourself on the back again.

A fast gear plateau has always been the idea behind Guild Wars, is there in GW1, is there in GW2. Not discussing weather gear/progression treadmills are a good or bad idea, Anet just tends to apply a different philosophy.

Progression, “endgame” and some other intelligent sounding words have been used over and over by both devs and players to the point they mean completely different things to different people. I’ll do my best to avoid the argument altogether, since that is not the basic component of what makes MMO’s and all games fun in general.

Video Games (and most things that require skill and are done as a hobby in general) have only one, dominant factor that determines how good (or bad) the game is for you, and that is the answer to the simple question “Are you having fun?”

GW has always tried to make it a fun game by focusing on the gameplay combined with character building. There is some gear grinding, especially if you are seeking to rebuild your character via different rune/armor sets, but GW never really was about the treadmill, while not ignoring that element completely.

Instead, GW1 tried to provide interesting mechanics (that require adaptation via build manipulation), solid PvP and a hefty list of achievements and the cosmetic farming options, along with its two expansions that each had their own flavor to it , expanding on the PvE and PvP options. All of it however boiled down to one thing, is actually playing the game is fun. Its quite clear that you cannot please everyone, as it is that certain decisions in design exclude some people for considering the game “fun”.

I admit I haven’t followed the hype for GW2 that much, but I believe this was clearly stated by the devs and if you got GW2 expecting “progression” understood as getting better gear over time, the games design principle of an early plateau makes that impossible. I do think that it was explained quite clearly and if not, you’d just need to read up basic info about Guild Wars 1 to see where GW2 is heading. If I remember right, one of the leading reasons the 80 lvl cap was put there to “extend” the “progression” for people who like dinging and were put off by GW1’s 20 levels. I admit they, seemed a bit strange to me at first, but I got over it relatively fast. To drive that point home, both expansions – Factions and Nightfall would skyrocket characters created in them to 20 in their “introduction” areas, the bulk of their content was expected for lvl 20 characters.

And yes, the only thing that is more or less readable in AF’s post he linked to is the fact that, at the moment, GW2 lacks really “challenging” content (personally, I find Orr just the right amount of challenge for drop-in PvE on a casual level, which was more or less what was promised for that facet), but I can totally agree with the statement that there is no real “high end” challenge for the focused players. I wont comment on the dungeons since I absolutely hate them in GW2 for reasons that are not the scope of this thread, but the “high end” build tweaking and challenges should imho come from them.

This has to come with time, as we get more zones and things to do. In theory, all of the new zones added when they are should be lvl 80 or thereabout areas and, if they follow the design principle of Orr’s temples for instance (some of which wipe huge zergs hilariously, much to my trollish glee), contain large event chains that require synchronization and cooperation across the map could be a nice addition to the challenge factor of the PvE facet.

Build customization comes from the trait trees and matching them to armor/jewel builds. While it is more limited then GW1, the system is way easier to manage and nerf op abilities. The only reason why it does not seem be as prominent as it imho should is due to bugs that are being consistently worked out over time – some combos are useless for certain classes due to other classes doing them way, way better. Hopefully, those are smoothened out and balanced so the trait system actually rewards out of the box thinking for both PvE and PvP.

GW1 wasn’t much less of a “dead end” with the launch of its first campaign either. PvP was hilariously unbalanced across some combos, PvE was snoozingly boring at times and terribly bugged at others, most instances were hard to fail unless you really, really tried. It took it years to smooth itself out, with a lot of key features that made the game nice only added through the two major expansions way after the initial release. It just takes time.

IMHO though, Anet has a nice basic framework that they need to debug, shape up and then expand. Pretty much exactly the same point they were at when GW1 launched. It is NOT based on gear progression though, but rather providing interesting content, challenges, encouraging you to tweak your build as needed and a decent, separated “hardcore” PvP segment.

The fact that the entire game is “scaled” to an arbitrary level based on the zone you are in definitely contributes to the “lack of progression” when it comes to feeling more powerful at a higher level. In the end, what does lvl 80 really mean if I get scaled to lvl 35 in a dungeon and feel just as weak as I did @ 35? I guess I have cooler looking armor/weapons (maybe, depending on your tastes)…cosmetics only go so far to feel that your character is “progressing.”

And this is just an example, progression does NOT only mean becoming more powerful.

would just like to clarify on a few things since people seem to have gotten the wrong idea about what I meant, first of all Echo, im not talking about progression as in getting more powerful as you can see I said at the end you would receive a SKIN, a skin is a cosmetic thing, it does not become obsolete, the idea of progression I proposed was working towards that skin.

I mean sure they have dungeons and tokens to get skins but who really wants to run the same dungeon over and over again without the slightest chance of receiving what they are trying to get but instead have the feeling of 20 more runs to go, 19 more runs to go. I personally prefer the idea of “this run it might drop”, at the very least they could implement game wide tokens as opposed to dungeon specific tokens, surely if they are encouraging people to have fun they should allow people to do what they find fun, im sure much more people would be doing dungeons if they could do whatever dungeon they wanted but still received the reward of their choosing.

Silencer, the thing with gw1 was that once you hit the level cap of 20 that was not the end of the game, infact you had barely even touched the game by the time you hit 20. a lot of people even made the assumption that the game was over and they left without realising that it had only just begun and most of the content was after level 20, but gw2 does not have that, once you hit the level cap you have 4 options farm, create an alt, WvW or PvP, there is nothing for people who wish to continue playing PvE, personnaly im a bit annoyed by it since they talked Orr up to being this amazing place where massive dynamic events would take place and it would be all fun and games, when in reality its not, its full of people calling out the dynamic event chains that provide the best karma and the entire map flocking over to it to farm it, most of which is made up of bots.