Guild Wars 2

While it isn’t the first game to do this, Guild Wars 2 has been praised for the removal of the holy trinity (tank, dps, healer). And while everyone may have their own opinion on whether the trin is good/bad for MMOs, ArenaNet’s implementation of a supposed “you can be any role you want” system confuses me, specifically with the decision to keep the traditional three armor types.

For those who aren’t aware, two armor pieces at the same level of different types have a considerable difference in defensive stats:
A medium armor piece has 90% of the defensive stats compared to its heavy counterpart and a light piece 80%. The other stats (power, vitality, etc); however, all have the same totals.
This is a tremendous problem for a game that’s trying to make a 1v1 close ranged combat a viable option for every class.

In fact, I would go as far as to say this the primary contributing factor to the current class imbalance. By removing the holy trin system, basically the tanks got the best of both worlds, they became a fighter class and gained the ability to do damage and became self sufficent healers, they also remained tanky. Casters (those who wear light armor) on the other hand, got the roles of healer/support and dps merged into one, for the most part; the main issue is their durability remained the same. Casters in this game are as fragile as any other squishy mage or healer that you would encounter in any other game. This should not be the case in Guild Wars 2.

For the most part ArenaNet did a great job on the fighter classes, we see some warriors that build tanky, but also some who focus on damage. Variety and choice: these are good things. On the other hand, notice how casters are only restricted to the role of a ranged dps (elementalists can spec into support, but that’s another story). The reason for this is that casters are just too fragile, and the root of the problem is discrepancy between armor types, when you compounded that with the fact that casters typically have low base health, you end up with characters that are just unable to withstand a lot of damage no matter how they arrange their traits or gear.

What should be done then? Feel free to come up with your own suggestions on how to combat this design flaw. I suggest one of two solutions:
A) Simply make light and medium armor on par with heavy armor. Simple, intuitive, and lines up perfectly with the design philosophy.
B) Keep the defensive stats the way they are but increase the “other stats” on light and medium armor pieces to make up for it. If a lvl 80 heavy glove gives 20power, 30 vitality, and 40 toughness (just an example) then make the medium give 23,33,43 and the light give 25,30,35. I’m sure many caster players can vouch for me when I say the damage of mages in this game are underwhelming.

One way or another, something needs to be done to close the gap between the classes and allow all players to truly play their class however they want.

TL;DR The fact that casters are forced to wear light armor that is only 80% effective, when compared to heavy armor, is problematic in a game where any class should be able to take up any role.

Yeah the damage of mages is kinda underwhelming even when stated for power. Anyway I would Love an option to use the appearance of medium or Heavy armor on my Mage. or vice versa I simply ADORE the order of whispers Cowl, but it’s light armor and I’d want to combine it with a breast plate kind of thing.

It is not a problem imo. There are many factors to balance on and base armor is only one and its not that important. For example the base hp of a necromancer is 18,372 and the base hp of a guardian is 10,805.

Of course, we could always just make all armor unrestricted and wearable by everyone. Although fighters wearing light armor and mages wearing heavy armor would look out of place.

Didn’t bother reading your post.

Heavy armor dies in one hit if they play like an idiot, the same as light armor.

A 10% difference is hardly anything. In the long run, you gain the vast majority of your damage/durability depending on how you gear. The innate durability a warrior/guardian just makes up for the fact that, by nature, it will receive more focus than an elementalist since a warrior has to be in the front lines to do its damage.

Stopped reading at the “designed for 1on1 combat”.

Sorry.

Also , on topic, think its fine.

Zhaitan.2578:

The innate durability a warrior/guardian just makes up for the fact that, by nature, it will receive more focus than an elementalist since a warrior has to be in the front lines to do its damage.

You missed the point the OP was making. So-called ‘ranged’ professions have the ability to fight using melee weapons, for example rangers can use greatswords, swords, off-hand daggers, as well as spears. The game is very flexible in allowing us to choose a fighting style that we enjoy but the large differences in HP and armour penalizes us unnecesarily for making those choices.

One solution would be to make all armour classes give equal protection and give everyone the same base HP. Then give melee weapons extra vitality and toughness on top of their existing stats to compensate for the fact that the melee fighter has to wade into the thick of things.

I agree with you there but I don’t agree where you posted it. It will be of a better use if you posted this thread in the suggestions forum, as ANet said so themselves, their suggestions guy reads the suggestions forum (can I add ‘only’ there?)

Anyway…

MMOs can do away with armour restrictions – even weapon restrictions if you want. They just have to suffer for it. For example, professions that rely on the protection of heavy armours but is wearing light armours will receive more damage, though they’ll be able to move much more faster. Professions that rely on ‘concentration’ and being able to move faster, but chose to wear a heavy armour, will move slower, and will have a hard or longer time to cast.

Take it from the father of RPGs – D&D.

Weapons the same thing. A profession that doesn’t like a particular weapon, will not get complete proficiency from it (not even 50% if I may so). So say the lore of a warrior states that they have bows. They can still use it but they won’t get near to 50% proficiency of it – in GW2 that would relate to not being able to unlock the other skills of that weapon.

Definitely, a warrior can not cast spells or use mage-type weapons, their lore states that they hate it. And vice versa. And so on and so forth.

Again, take it from D&D.

Oh, btw, if you want an MMO like that, there’s Ultima Online for you :p the father of MMORPGs hehe.

But if GW2 goes down that path, then GW2 will become a sandbox MMORPG, which today’s generation of gamers hates a lot (because they’re the themepark generation).

What I hate about the armor classes is that you can’t transmute, say, medium armor stats with the light armor appearance.

A lot of discussion in this thread about making armor equal across all professions. But i see no mention of skills and abilities that increase survivability for light and medium armor wearers. Just because your armor says light, versus a warrior’s heavy doesnt mean his survivability is better then yours. You also need to look at spell, abilities and traits. If a light armor wearing profession is lacking survivability then that survivability needs to be buffed through their spells, not through their armor.

Light armor wearers are usually your magic users. In lore they are often seen as not being strong enough to carry a suit of plate armor. So they use spells to increase their survivability. Magic armor, slows, snares, teleport, invisibility, ice block, magic bubbles. a bright flash of light coming from the end of their staff…pretty much anything magic based. Now take a non magic using warrior who for whatever lore reason, doesnt use magic. They rely on strength to be able to wear heavy armor and carry shields. They rely on non magic means to survive…dodge, parry, soak it up, take it in the face or hold up that big old shield to take the hit.

I’m not even an RP type player, and i dont really care about lore all to much. But you need to think about the basic profession mechanic before asking for a buff to it. If a warrior needs a gap closer that isnt tied to a weapon skill you dont say “ohh just give them a teleport”. Instead you need to say “give them a charge ability”. I know they have one already but was just using it to get the point across.

No.

On ranged topic, warriors have rifles and guardians have gap closing skills as well as scepter and staff.

Twaddlefish.6537:

No.

On ranged topic, warriors have rifles and guardians have gap closing skills as well as scepter and staff.

I said in the last part of the message that it was to make a point. I wasnt asking for warriors to be given a gap closer, it was an example.

When playing a warrior you dont ask for ‘caster’ type or magic based spell like teleport, you ask for an ability that is physical based like a charge where you run towards your target. Another example is you dont say ‘hey i think elementalists should be able to carry shields’ instead you say that elementalists need a spell or boon that increases their armor the same way a warriors shield would.

Twaddlefish.6537:

No.

On ranged topic, warriors have rifles and guardians have gap closing skills as well as scepter and staff.

Scepter may as well not exist, and Staff can barely be considered ranged, it’s a short-medium range teamwide might buff. Considering a Staff a weapon, let alone a ranged weapon, is almost a stretch.

Why do people want to dumb everything down to nothing? These kind of people are just ruining games for everyone. Leave armor the way it is.

Zhaitan.2578:

A 10% difference is hardly anything. In the long run, you gain the vast majority of your damage/durability depending on how you gear. The innate durability a warrior/guardian just makes up for the fact that, by nature, it will receive more focus than an elementalist since a warrior has to be in the front lines to do its damage.

A 10% difference is a significant difference, let alone 20% per piece; when you factor in 6 armor pieces, classes wearing heavy armor are effectively using over seven pieces.

Hippopothomas.4381:

Why do people want to dumb everything down to nothing? These kind of people are just ruining games for everyone. Leave armor the way it is.

One could argue the removal of the holy trinity was a dumbing down of a well structured and efficient method to run dungeons, yet a majority of the fan base seem fine with the fact that it’s gone.

The point is that due to the fact that the trinity is gone, all the classes are supposed to be on equal footing and all able to take up any role. The different armor types limit certain classes from doing just that. It’s a housekeeping issue: the classes and weapons have been well balanced (for the most part), but the armor is still based off a “those who wear heavy armor will be tanks and those who wear light armor will be squishies in the back.”

I like the idea of any class using any armor from a concept POV, but I do not think there is so much of a balance issue. Yeah, eles might have a survival issue in melee at the moment, but don’t try and tell me a defensive specced necro or mes can’t hold his own in close combat. Engineers have some decent specs for close combat, especially since nothing tends to live long against them at such short range, and rangers and thieves are not meant to sustain hits; they skirmish with melee weapons just fine, tho.

As for opening up armor classes to all profs, I say just let it affect your endurance regen. Light armor = fastest regen, heavy = slowest. That way you can be more evasive in lighter armor and sustain more damage in heavier armor. Not sure how tough this would be for Anet to balance armor and traits across all classes, but I love the concept.

Meh… I’d worry more about the balance of defensive stats in general more than “oh noes, my mesmer can’t wear heavy armor”. As it stands, toughness and +healing give you almost nothing for investing in them whereas all the offensive stats give you so much more return for investing in them.

Toughness works well in the overworld or when you’re taking numerous direct hits… but when those hits are mostly one-two shot mechanics (specifically in the dungeons where even trash can hit real hard for a “basic attack”), toughness isn’t all that helpful.

Don’t even get me started on +healing…

I understand they don’t want you tanking and healing through a fight, especially in dungeons, but don’t trivialize the stat…. A dungeon mob or boss “basic attack”, assuming they’re moves are not telegraphed, shouldn’t hit a decked out warrior/guardian for a ton of damage; but go ahead and let the more telegraphed move and specific one-shot mechanics should do a lot of damage.

My issue is that ‘armors’ are assigned to classes and pigeon hole them.

I mean Warriors…heavy armor every game. Really? Do you know how many types of Warriors there are? A light fast warrior is not a rogue or ranger. They are a Warrior and spec’d/geared for fast paced in and out combat. That same warrior can also wear heavy armor if needed if the fights will entail something that requires it.

That’s my issue with all MMOs…how they just pigeon hole each class into X armor.

I’d love to see armors take into account mobility and movement. The heavier the armor, the slower the movement and mobility but stronger defensive absorption. Mind you someone in leather should still be as mobile as someone in cloth (since their weights are negligible), but there should be other advantages and disadvantages (like casting issues, etc).

Then you can have your fast paced agile Warrior or your heavy geared juggernaut.

I just hate seeing someone who wants to play a Warrior stuck with bulky looking armor where they might want something that is more mobile like leather. Same with how say classes like Thief get pigeon-holed into the stealthy, poison using category when there are lots of different ‘rogue’ types.

There is only about 200armor of difference between light/med/heavy.
It’s not like other MMOs, the difference is negligible.

SeraVerte.2640:

A 10% difference is a significant difference, let alone 20% per piece; when you factor in 6 armor pieces, classes wearing heavy armor are effectively using over seven pieces.

10/20% “per piece” is still 10/20% overall, math is hard.

One could argue the removal of the holy trinity was a dumbing down of a well structured and efficient method to run dungeons, yet a majority of the fan base seem fine with the fact that it’s gone.

This game isn’t about “running dungeons” like the prototypical contemporary MMO is, so that might have something to do with it. Also an efficient way of doing things doesn’t mean it is the efficient way of doing things.

The point is that due to the fact that the trinity is gone, all the classes are supposed to be on equal footing and all able to take up any role. The different armor types limit certain classes from doing just that. It’s a housekeeping issue: the classes and weapons have been well balanced (for the most part), but the armor is still based off a “those who wear heavy armor will be tanks and those who wear light armor will be squishies in the back.”

There are numerous other balance considerations to make besides the armor stat. Maximum damage potentials are different, utility skills are different, other base stats are different.

The line of thinking you are using seems to be “all else being equal, these different armor values cause an imbalance.” The key issue here is: not all else is equal. I’ve also seen some non-heavy armor wearers do some crazy stuff when they have aggro. Since nearly anyone with the skill can be an “avoidance tank” the heavy=tank/light=glass cannon paradigm isn’t as strict as found elsewhere.

Light armor class should have better defensive stats against magical or attribute attack. Or give them more powerful shielding skills, or better movement skill without sacrificing the use of multiple utility skill slots. None of this exists in the game, which make the balance really awful. The heavy armor classes may even have better skills in some aspect.

I gave up on my elementalist exploring the 2nd/3rd part of Orr, after seeing the disadvantage with tons of mobs respawning around you almost instantly, then start pulling and immobilizing you.