Guild Wars 2

In the ongoing discussion of the “PVE Meta” in GW2 there’s some confusion on this, so I figured I’d do a public service and lay it all out.

In the widest sense, ‘metaplay’ is everything you do that isn’t your actual second-to-second or minute-to-minute gameplay.

Games have a wide variety in the prevalence of their metaplay. CCG’s and LCG’s are mostly metaplay, to take the extreme example of hearthstone, your deck construction is the primary thing, the actual gameplay is fairly mechanical.

In comparison, FPS’ have very very little metaplay, they rarely get past some very basic class and loadout.

In the case of GW2, metaplay is general class/build/gear/skill loadouts, and can substantially change the nature of your active play.

Now here’s the tricky part; metaplay and a ‘Metagame’ are actually pretty different.

A Meta*game* is an additional level to competitive gameplay where you’re using metaplay considerations to significantly alter your chances of success.

A classic example of playing the Metagame is counterpicking in a Fighting game. You’re using a non-gameplay consideration to increase your chance of success.

GW2 PvP is full of Metagame considerations, in order to be successful you’re greatly helped by doing a specific build, and if you don’t do that build you need to be aware of how that build works.

GW2 PvE doesn’t really have a Metagame, no build or setup is even remotely required for success and there isn’t any real competitive element to drive the meta. It does have a style that the community prefers (due to speed), but that really can’t raise to the dignity of ‘the Meta’, it’s entirely optional for completing all content.

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TL;DR:
The Metagame is driven by success requirements or competition.
For the Metagame to be a consideration it needs to be just about required for success.
GW2 simply does not have the difficulty or competition in PvE to support a true Metagame.

“The Community’s preferred playstyle” isn’t ‘meta’, it’s a preference.

Good info. I don’t think anybody is going to stop calling it that, though.

The last point is just your opinion. There is a competative element. Its just not direct.

Spoj The Second.7680:

The last point is just your opinion. There is a competative element. Its just not direct.

Basically this, but otherwise good analysis.

That actually makes sense. “Preferred playstlye” isn’t by definition “meta” However in the general consensus using the term “meta” to refer to what the preferred style of play is has become “meta”.

So it’s “meta” to use the term “meta” when talking about the “meta”….

Mind = Blown

Spoj The Second.7680:

The last point is just your opinion. There is a competative element. Its just not direct.

It also applies to a fairly small component of the population. Is there any place beyond the dungeon speedrun community where there’s a significant competitve element in PvE?

(Appearances aside, I’m always willing to be wrong)

pdavis.8031:

That actually makes sense. “Preferred playstlye” isn’t by definition “meta” However in the general consensus using the term “meta” to refer to what the preferred style of play is has become “meta”.

So it’s “meta” to use the term “meta” when talking about the “meta”….

Mind = Blown

You can’t give up yet, to my count we’re only up to the third level of meta!

Windsagio.1340:

Spoj The Second.7680:

The last point is just your opinion. There is a competative element. Its just not direct.

It also applies to a fairly small component of the population. Is there any place beyond the dungeon speedrun community where there’s a significant competitve element in PvE?

(Appearances aside, I’m always willing to be wrong)

The competitive speed clear scene is probably about the same size as the competitive pvp scene. and by “competitive pvp scene” i mean the guilds/teams who have a realistic shot at winning tournaments. Just like lowly hotjoiners adopt the builds of TCG or Abjured, pug zerkers adopt the builds of SC and DnT in pve.

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

Spoj The Second.7680:

The last point is just your opinion. There is a competative element. Its just not direct.

It also applies to a fairly small component of the population. Is there any place beyond the dungeon speedrun community where there’s a significant competitve element in PvE?

(Appearances aside, I’m always willing to be wrong)

The competitive speed clear scene is probably about the same size as the competitive pvp scene. and by “competitive pvp scene” i mean the guilds/teams who have a realistic shot at winning tournaments. Just like lowly hotjoiners adopt the builds of TCG or Abjured, pug zerkers adopt the builds of SC and DnT in pve.

I’m not sure that’s a fair comparison, in PvP, even if it’s hotjoin, the competitive aspect is always front-and-center, and someone coming in meta is going to most likely demolish you (if they know how to play it)^1.

Most people don’t even know that people compete in speed clears, and no competitive element is immediately visible in PvE.

^1 That’s actually another interesting tidbit that I didn’t really hit in the OP. Meta is pushed harder by it’s nature in head-to-head competition, because the person playing a properly tuned meta is going to just wreck the player that’s unaware of the meta, and likely make it impossible for that player to succeed at all. This simply isn’t the case in PvE. Me doing the dungeon faster than you or taking less damage or (insert any criteria here) won’t keep you from completing the dungeon.

I think you’ve muddied the definitions a bit. Metagaming (in the original D&D sense and still the sense in games like EVE) means things that take place outside of the game itself.

In the old days, that would be something like knowing details about the stats of a monster from your Monster Manual and then having your character act on that knowledge, even though the character has no way of gaining such knowledge.

In the present, metagaming generally means doing things that can’t be done in the game but that affect the outcome. This could be something as simple as using teamspeak (the game doesn’t provide voice communication and it’s a distinct advantage). Or it could be something extreme, like SWATting someone so they lose a match.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming pretty good definition.

Windsagio.1340:

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

Spoj The Second.7680:

The last point is just your opinion. There is a competative element. Its just not direct.

It also applies to a fairly small component of the population. Is there any place beyond the dungeon speedrun community where there’s a significant competitve element in PvE?

(Appearances aside, I’m always willing to be wrong)

The competitive speed clear scene is probably about the same size as the competitive pvp scene. and by “competitive pvp scene” i mean the guilds/teams who have a realistic shot at winning tournaments. Just like lowly hotjoiners adopt the builds of TCG or Abjured, pug zerkers adopt the builds of SC and DnT in pve.

I’m not sure that’s a fair comparison, in PvP, even if it’s hotjoin, the competitive aspect is always front-and-center, and someone coming in meta is going to most likely demolish you (if they know how to play it)^1.

Most people don’t even know that people compete in speed clears, and no competitive element is immediately visible in PvE.

^1 That’s actually another interesting tidbit that I didn’t really hit in the OP. Meta is pushed harder by it’s nature in head-to-head competition, because the person playing a properly tuned meta is going to just wreck the player that’s unaware of the meta, and likely make it impossible for that player to succeed at all. This simply isn’t the case in PvE. Me doing the dungeon faster than you or taking less damage or (insert any criteria here) won’t keep you from completing the dungeon.

I think you are being closed minded on what competition can mean. You can compete against yourself to constantly improve. You can compete against the clock to get your dungeons done before you run out of time. You can compete against others to see who can run it faster. You can compete to see if you can get a flawless and smooth run. You dont necessarily need a direct opponent to have competition.

But what hybrid said is a pretty good comparison. Most people just adopt the builds and strategies demonstrated in speed clears by the top guilds. And thats what forms the pug preferences. Call it the pug meta if you will. Its just the same as how your casual PvP player adopts builds and strategies from the top PvP teams. They are the top so it makes sense to learn and copy from them.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Windsagio.1340:

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

Spoj The Second.7680:

The last point is just your opinion. There is a competative element. Its just not direct.

It also applies to a fairly small component of the population. Is there any place beyond the dungeon speedrun community where there’s a significant competitve element in PvE?

(Appearances aside, I’m always willing to be wrong)

The competitive speed clear scene is probably about the same size as the competitive pvp scene. and by “competitive pvp scene” i mean the guilds/teams who have a realistic shot at winning tournaments. Just like lowly hotjoiners adopt the builds of TCG or Abjured, pug zerkers adopt the builds of SC and DnT in pve.

I’m not sure that’s a fair comparison, in PvP, even if it’s hotjoin, the competitive aspect is always front-and-center, and someone coming in meta is going to most likely demolish you (if they know how to play it)^1.

Most people don’t even know that people compete in speed clears, and no competitive element is immediately visible in PvE.

^1 That’s actually another interesting tidbit that I didn’t really hit in the OP. Meta is pushed harder by it’s nature in head-to-head competition, because the person playing a properly tuned meta is going to just wreck the player that’s unaware of the meta, and likely make it impossible for that player to succeed at all. This simply isn’t the case in PvE. Me doing the dungeon faster than you or taking less damage or (insert any criteria here) won’t keep you from completing the dungeon.

I think you are being closed minded on what competition can mean. You can compete against yourself to constantly improve. You can compete against the clock to get your dungeons done before you run out of time. You can compete against others to see who can run it faster. You can compete to see if you can get a flawless and smooth run. You dont necessarily need a direct opponent to have competition.

But what hybrid said is a pretty good comparison. Most people just adopt the builds and strategies demonstrated in speed clears by the top guilds. And thats what forms the pug preferences. Call it the pug meta if you will. Its just the same as how your casual PvP player adopts builds and strategies from the top PvP teams. They are the top so it makes sense to learn and copy from them.

Part of the idea I’m trying to present though is that an aspect of the meta is that it’s required to function effectively. In the other uses you see for it, that’s an accurate description.

If you’re playing netrunner, even if you are running a non-meta deck, you have to know how to deal with the meta or you’re going to get just demolished by meta players.

Similarly, if you’re playing Mortal Kombat 2 competitively, if you’re not using Mileena or Jax, you’re going to lose and you deserve to lose.

I just can’t see how the pve content raises to that level of exclusivity for more than a tiny % of the players, and I’d strongly argue that that level of exclusivity is necessary for a legit Metagame element.

There’s a copying element as well, I’d agree, but I don’t feel it’s very well reasoned beyond ‘well the good players do it and it seems the fastest way to get rewards’.

Exclusivity is not necessary for the metagame. Its that simple.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Exclusivity is not necessary for the metagame. Its that simple.

Well support that position. I think I’ve made a reasonable case above of the wheres and why’s of the thing, how is that element not important?

Although maybe it’s my use of the term ‘exclusivity’, which is a little vague. To put it another way: A core element of a true “Metagame” is that you can’t ignore it.

You can entirely ignore the GW2 PVE meta, never know about it, do every single bit of game content, and feel entirely successful. You can’t realistically ignore the PVP Meta, you’re going to have a very hard time.

If you dont mind losing to decent players then you can ignore it. You can simply win against other players and still feel successful. Dont underestimate the power of ignorance.

Your whole arguement is based on your own opinion. Thats all im saying. I believe PvE can be defined as having a meta. You believe it cant. But your posts imply that what you are saying is a fact.

Spoj The Second.7680:

If you dont mind losing to decent players then you can ignore it. You can simply win against other players and still feel successful. Dont underestimate the power of ignorance.

Your whole arguement is based on your own opinion. Thats all im saying. I believe PvE can be defined as having a meta. You believe it cant. But your posts imply that what you are saying is a fact.

The PvP meta is more prevalent than you seem to think. It’s hard to do a whole night of hotjoin without running into a Meta or edge-Meta (read:PU mesmer) build.

Otherwise, eeh, that’s not an argument.

I am against this thread and demand that you remove it and quit slandering my name! If you do not cease and desist I will be forced to retain legal council and take action.

You have been warned!

Meta Lurgy
Asuran Engineer
HOD

Windsagio.1340:

Spoj The Second.7680:

If you dont mind losing to decent players then you can ignore it. You can simply win against other players and still feel successful. Dont underestimate the power of ignorance.

Your whole arguement is based on your own opinion. Thats all im saying. I believe PvE can be defined as having a meta. You believe it cant. But your posts imply that what you are saying is a fact.

The PvP meta is more prevalent than you seem to think. It’s hard to do a whole night of hotjoin without running into a Meta or edge-Meta (read:PU mesmer) build.

Otherwise, eeh, that’s not an argument.

go lfg pug ac for a week and tell me every single group you joined at random was completely clueless of how to do the dungeon. thats essentially what you are claiming doesnt happen in hotjoins.

Windsagio.1340:

GW2 PvE doesn’t really have a Metagame, no build or setup is even remotely required for success

GW2 PvE doesn’t have a very specific metagame but it certainly is there. Metagame isn’t restricted to just competitive PvP, it can also encompass the competitive obligation of functional performance. Many builds/classes/gear are so sub-optimal for Fractals, megabosses like Tequatl or Triple Worm or even the newest Living Story layouts that it’s moving in a direction where the “no metagame” mentality completely loses merit.

While you could certainly argue all of these things are optional, defaulting their status quo of metagame material, where is the line drawn? And, more importantly, what authority do you have to say where the line should be drawn? To save you the trouble, you don’t have any authority. Unfortunately, you are not the arbiter of the metagame. You do not have the authority to say whether content must be played via metagame or whether it’s overzealous.

Spoj is completely right in saying that your conclusion is based on opinionated premises, I for one put no stock in your sole opinion.

I don’t really expect an answer, I don’t want to be bored by a diatribe of nothing.

insanemaniac.2456:

Windsagio.1340:

Spoj The Second.7680:

If you dont mind losing to decent players then you can ignore it. You can simply win against other players and still feel successful. Dont underestimate the power of ignorance.

Your whole arguement is based on your own opinion. Thats all im saying. I believe PvE can be defined as having a meta. You believe it cant. But your posts imply that what you are saying is a fact.

The PvP meta is more prevalent than you seem to think. It’s hard to do a whole night of hotjoin without running into a Meta or edge-Meta (read:PU mesmer) build.

Otherwise, eeh, that’s not an argument.

go lfg pug ac for a week and tell me every single group you joined at random was completely clueless of how to do the dungeon. thats essentially what you are claiming doesnt happen in hotjoins.

Every single dungeon I run is pug and 95% of them (give or take) don’t give a kitten about the “meta” and do just fine anyways.

That’s the starting position of all my arguments. The purported ‘meta’ doesn’t have any meaningful impact on most of the groups I enter, and they complete the content just fine. It’s simply not required and many knowledgable players don’t care.

Cuddy.6247:

Windsagio.1340:

GW2 PvE doesn’t really have a Metagame, no build or setup is even remotely required for success

GW2 PvE doesn’t have a very specific metagame but it certainly is there. Metagame isn’t restricted to just competitive PvP, it can also encompass the competitive obligation of functional performance. Many builds/classes/gear are so sub-optimal for Fractals, megabosses like Tequatl or Triple Worm or even the newest Living Story layouts that it’s moving in a direction where the “no metagame” mentality completely loses merit.

While you could certainly argue all of these things are optional, defaulting their status quo of metagame material, where is the line drawn? And, more importantly, what authority do you have to say where the line should be drawn? To save you the trouble, you don’t have any authority. Unfortunately, you are not the arbiter of the metagame. You do not have the authority to say whether content must be played via metagame or whether it’s overzealous.

Spoj is completely right in saying that your conclusion is based on opinionated premises, I for one put no stock in your sole opinion.

I don’t really expect an answer, I don’t want to be bored by a diatribe of nothing.

Up to at least the mid-late ‘30s, most groups simply don’t ask you about meta. I know (because I do sometimes ask privately, or have been since I got into these discussions) that a fair number of the players that play at those levels don’t play ‘meta’, and it’s just fine. Nobody asks, nobody says “AHA YOU DIDN’T TAKE ENOUGH DAMAGE”, none of that. They expect, rightly, that if you are joining a mid-high level fractal, you know what you’re doing and can complete that fractal… and it always works out, I’ve never had a fractal over 20 fail (that I remember). Sometimes they fail at low levels, but never at the higher ones.

About ‘authority’, eeh, All I can do is try to make the most compelling case I can and go with that.

You can succeed in pve without running optimal setup just like you can succeed in pvp doing the same. In league i win games running troll build like movespeed blitzcrank and split push suicide alistar. In gw2 i can smash a bunch of hotjoin and wvw heroes running p/p thief. By that logic, pvp has no meta.

Just because a player can make a sub optimal build work doesn’t mean the entire game mode somehow doesn’t have a meta. One can say that in order to beat the highest level in pvp, you have to run meta. Same can be said for pve, you will never achieve a dungeon the fastest no matter how flawlessly you play if you don’t run meta setup.

Lifestealer: Post-hoc;

I don’t know why the conception of the pve meta is so important to you, it’s not a good source of validation.

Having a dig instead of countering his arguement. Lol.

I know people are stubborn and will never admit when they are proven wrong. But if you cant respond then you should just stop posting instead of taking jabs at people when you cant counter their arguements.

Andred.1087:

Good info. I don’t think anybody is going to stop calling it that, though.

Nope! People still whine about getting ‘ganked’ (gang killed) by one person, people try to ‘k-train’ (karma train) events that don’t award karma, and others decry the ‘P2W’ nature of some cosmetic items…

Urban Dictionary needs a Gaming section.

Windsagio.1340:

Lifestealer: Post-hoc;

I don’t know why the conception of the pve meta is so important to you, it’s not a good source of validation.

Another question is, “Why it is so important to you to establish there isn’t one?”

You are just getting into extreme definitions while there is no need.

To the comon folk in games metagaming (or meta) means doing something else than playing the game to achive X goal the best way possible.

That would be teory crafting, copying other people, learning to do something by reflex, counterpicking in case of pvp, etc.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Windsagio.1340:

Lifestealer: Post-hoc;

I don’t know why the conception of the pve meta is so important to you, it’s not a good source of validation.

Another question is, “Why it is so important to you to establish there isn’t one?”

Because I’m right, kitten!

Joking aside, the attempts to impose a meta have a destructive effect on the game’s culture and limits players in ways that just aren’t productive.

Windsagio.1340:

insanemaniac.2456:

Windsagio.1340:

Spoj The Second.7680:

If you dont mind losing to decent players then you can ignore it. You can simply win against other players and still feel successful. Dont underestimate the power of ignorance.

Your whole arguement is based on your own opinion. Thats all im saying. I believe PvE can be defined as having a meta. You believe it cant. But your posts imply that what you are saying is a fact.

The PvP meta is more prevalent than you seem to think. It’s hard to do a whole night of hotjoin without running into a Meta or edge-Meta (read:PU mesmer) build.

Otherwise, eeh, that’s not an argument.

go lfg pug ac for a week and tell me every single group you joined at random was completely clueless of how to do the dungeon. thats essentially what you are claiming doesnt happen in hotjoins.

Every single dungeon I run is pug and 95% of them (give or take) don’t give a kitten about the “meta” and do just fine anyways.

That’s the starting position of all my arguments. The purported ‘meta’ doesn’t have any meaningful impact on most of the groups I enter, and they complete the content just fine. It’s simply not required and many knowledgable players don’t care.

do 95% of your ac p2 runs not use reflect wall on the final boss?
do 95% of your ac p3 runs ignore warmaster grast at colossus rumblus?
do 95% of your coe runs not stack on alpha?
do 95% of your cm runs not have a thief for stealths?
do 95% of your fractal runs not bring a guardian?
do 95% of your se p1 runs fight tazza next to kaeyi and/or not bring projectile hate to the 3 champs?
do 95% of your se p3 runs kill the champ under mortar fire instead of skipping him?

game knowledge is meta, and people dont take issue with it. they take issue with being told they can be better than they are, which happens when they get told to use certain gear quite commonly.

if your parties are flaunting these things, i pity your experiences. i dont know why you are being so selective with your meta umbrella.

For the Metagame to be a consideration it needs to be just about required for success.

Why? Some define meta to be optimal or approaching optimal. Why is your definition necessarily the one we must all agree to use?

Windsagio.1340:

Joking aside, the attempts to impose a meta have a destructive effect on the game’s culture and limits players in ways that just aren’t productive.

How is it (objectively) destructive?

How are players limited other than how they choose to feel limited?

Windsagio.1340:

They expect, rightly, that if you are joining a mid-high level fractal, you know what you’re doing and can complete that fractal…

Thank you for disillusioning your own OP. I’ll be going now.

insanemaniac.2456:

…do 95% of your cm runs not have a thief for stealths?…

When did CM become difficult enough that this was a requirement for a smooth run? Speed I can see but not just to complete the content easily

Dramen Maidria.1034:

insanemaniac.2456:

…do 95% of your cm runs not have a thief for stealths?…

When did CM become difficult enough that this was a requirement for a smooth run? Speed I can see but not just to complete the content easily

Its not. But many pugs will do it even in non meta pugs. Its something that has become quite the norm thanks to the meta. Even your non meta pugs use a lot of strategies that have been learnt and passed down from speedruns. So to say the meta is destructive is kind of stupid. Without it your average player would be forced to discover everything themselves. This could be seen as a good thing. But not everyone likes to do that. Some people just like to follow. With the meta people have the choice to follow or ignore it. Without it they have no choice.

insanemaniac.2456:

do 95% of your fractal runs not bring a guardian?

Correct. More than 1 in 20 of my fractal runs do not involve guards. These are all PUGs using the LFG tool, btw.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Dramen Maidria.1034:

insanemaniac.2456:

…do 95% of your cm runs not have a thief for stealths?…

When did CM become difficult enough that this was a requirement for a smooth run? Speed I can see but not just to complete the content easily

Its not. But many pugs will do it even in non meta pugs. Its something that has become quite the norm thanks to the meta. Even your non meta pugs use a lot of strategies that have been learnt and passed down from speedruns. So to say the meta is destructive is kind of stupid. Without it your average player would be forced to discover everything themselves. This could be seen as a good thing. But not everyone likes to do that. Some people just like to follow. With the meta people have the choice to follow or ignore it. Without it they have no choice.

See this now makes me wonder if these same pugs get wiped repeatedly without the thief because they forgot how to handle the mobs or never learned to.

Definitions shift over time, go look up kitten in the dictionary. Zerging did not originally mean how people use it now, and it still annoys me, but I’m not going to try and get people to use the definition differently. The reality is at least in GW2 meta has come to mean the most optimized builds. Yes, this isn’t a game where people not running those builds can actually cause content to fail as opposed to say FF or WoW, but at this point the term meta has a distinct meaning for at least this game. That isn’t going to change.

So how should we refer to the “meta” in your opinion?

Veydar.5017:

So how should we refer to the “meta” in your opinion?

How about “The Strat?” Surely, it’s a strategy.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Veydar.5017:

So how should we refer to the “meta” in your opinion?

How about “The Strat?” Surely, it’s a strategy.

Warmer, I’m sure we can come up with something better though

Windsagio.1340:

Part of the idea I’m trying to present though is that an aspect of the meta is that it’s required to function effectively.

It’s your idea. It’s not really part of the definition, however. All a build or strategy requires to be part of Meta is to be considered by the community to be efficient/optimal/best for certain purpose. Even if that actually isn’t true.
There’s no requirement for the meta to be the only possible way to accomplish something. It’s just that other ways are considered inefficient (again, even if that’s not true).

Just call it a speed run, thing called.

The entire thing is that we’re left with partially informed people thinking you have to play in reference to ‘meta’ because in just about every real use of the word that’s how it works.

It’s really kind of a language purity thing ultimately though, it sure looks like the word was co-opted from the usage in PVP, but it loses descriptive power when it’s misused.

Windsagio.1340:

The entire thing is that we’re left with partially informed people thinking you have to play in reference to ‘meta’ because in just about every real use of the word that’s how it works.

Ignorance is not an excuse. It’s not our fault that some people are misinformed.

Windsagio.1340:

In the ongoing discussion of the “PVE Meta” in GW2 there’s some confusion on this, so I figured I’d do a public service and lay it all out.

In the widest sense, ‘metaplay’ is everything you do that isn’t your actual second-to-second or minute-to-minute gameplay.

Games have a wide variety in the prevalence of their metaplay. CCG’s and LCG’s are mostly metaplay, to take the extreme example of hearthstone, your deck construction is the primary thing, the actual gameplay is fairly mechanical.

In comparison, FPS’ have very very little metaplay, they rarely get past some very basic class and loadout.

In the case of GW2, metaplay is general class/build/gear/skill loadouts, and can substantially change the nature of your active play.

Now here’s the tricky part; metaplay and a ‘Metagame’ are actually pretty different.

A Meta*game* is an additional level to competitive gameplay where you’re using metaplay considerations to significantly alter your chances of success.

A classic example of playing the Metagame is counterpicking in a Fighting game. You’re using a non-gameplay consideration to increase your chance of success.

GW2 PvP is full of Metagame considerations, in order to be successful you’re greatly helped by doing a specific build, and if you don’t do that build you need to be aware of how that build works.

GW2 PvE doesn’t really have a Metagame, no build or setup is even remotely required for success and there isn’t any real competitive element to drive the meta. It does have a style that the community prefers (due to speed), but that really can’t raise to the dignity of ‘the Meta’, it’s entirely optional for completing all content.

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TL;DR:
The Metagame is driven by success requirements or competition.
For the Metagame to be a consideration it needs to be just about required for success.
GW2 simply does not have the difficulty or competition in PvE to support a true Metagame.

“The Community’s preferred playstyle” isn’t ‘meta’, it’s a preference.

“The Metagame is driven by success requirements or competition.”

Me and a good portion of the community consider obtaining good rewards fast success.
No – not completing the dungeon or content. Completing it within a time frame that makes this highly profitable.

Since this is what we consider success the term applies here since without this “meta” we cannot achieve the desired objective and thus fail.

Finishing content is not every person’s idea of succeeding.

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

The entire thing is that we’re left with partially informed people thinking you have to play in reference to ‘meta’ because in just about every real use of the word that’s how it works.

Ignorance is not an excuse. It’s not our fault that some people are misinformed.

‘Our’. What does group identity have to do with anything? ><

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

In the ongoing discussion of the “PVE Meta” in GW2 there’s some confusion on this, so I figured I’d do a public service and lay it all out.

In the widest sense, ‘metaplay’ is everything you do that isn’t your actual second-to-second or minute-to-minute gameplay.

Games have a wide variety in the prevalence of their metaplay. CCG’s and LCG’s are mostly metaplay, to take the extreme example of hearthstone, your deck construction is the primary thing, the actual gameplay is fairly mechanical.

In comparison, FPS’ have very very little metaplay, they rarely get past some very basic class and loadout.

In the case of GW2, metaplay is general class/build/gear/skill loadouts, and can substantially change the nature of your active play.

Now here’s the tricky part; metaplay and a ‘Metagame’ are actually pretty different.

A Meta*game* is an additional level to competitive gameplay where you’re using metaplay considerations to significantly alter your chances of success.

A classic example of playing the Metagame is counterpicking in a Fighting game. You’re using a non-gameplay consideration to increase your chance of success.

GW2 PvP is full of Metagame considerations, in order to be successful you’re greatly helped by doing a specific build, and if you don’t do that build you need to be aware of how that build works.

GW2 PvE doesn’t really have a Metagame, no build or setup is even remotely required for success and there isn’t any real competitive element to drive the meta. It does have a style that the community prefers (due to speed), but that really can’t raise to the dignity of ‘the Meta’, it’s entirely optional for completing all content.

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TL;DR:
The Metagame is driven by success requirements or competition.
For the Metagame to be a consideration it needs to be just about required for success.
GW2 simply does not have the difficulty or competition in PvE to support a true Metagame.

“The Community’s preferred playstyle” isn’t ‘meta’, it’s a preference.

“The Metagame is driven by success requirements or competition.”

Me and a good portion of the community consider obtaining good rewards fast success.
No – not completing the dungeon or content. Completing it within a time frame that makes this highly profitable.

Since this is what we consider success the term applies here since without this “meta” we cannot achieve the desired objective and thus fail.

Finishing content is not every person’s idea of succeeding.

But the meta has to be pretty solid. "Some people feel this is a goal and some people think that is a goal, and this is required for this groups goals but not for other groups goals’ is kind of wishywashy. In PVP if you take a non-meta team vs a meta team, there’s no way to say ‘I didn’t lose the game!’ at least not a valid one that won’t get you mocked as a sore loser. That is simply not the case in PvE, where there’s a wide range of expectations beyond the baseline of ‘did I complete the content?’

In fact, I’m trying to keep it that way because I don’t want to belittle you guys’ style of playing or call it invalid.

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

The entire thing is that we’re left with partially informed people thinking you have to play in reference to ‘meta’ because in just about every real use of the word that’s how it works.

Ignorance is not an excuse. It’s not our fault that some people are misinformed.

‘Our’. What does group identity have to do with anything? ><

Meaning, the non-uninformed people will not take responsibility or accountability for the failures of the uninformed people for being uninformed.

Please address my first post.

• How is it (objectively) destructive?

• How are players limited other than how they choose to feel limited?

Okay, so this entire thread is more about semantics than anything else? I mean we just had a thread with what feels like 1000 pages revolving around “the meta”, it feels a bit pointless to criticize the choice of wording after 2 years of Guild Wars 2.
The issues within the community will always be there, whether you call it “meta” or “zerk way” or “fluffy puffs” isn’t really relevant. I am sure 95% of the people only have a very vague idea of the word “meta” and only care about what it actually means in the GW2 lingo.

Veydar.5017:

Okay, so this entire thread is more about semantics than anything else? I mean we just had a thread with what feels like 1000 pages revolving around “the meta”, it feels a bit pointless to criticize the choice of wording after 2 years of Guild Wars 2.
The issues within the community will always be there, whether you call it “meta” or “zerk way” or “fluffy puffs” isn’t really relevant. I am sure 95% of the people only have a very vague idea of the word “meta” and only care about what it actually means in the GW2 lingo.

Essentially yeah it’s about semantics

You know how it is, semantics are important to more people than just me, and they do have a meaningful effect. Nobody took part in the discussion unwillingly :p

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

The entire thing is that we’re left with partially informed people thinking you have to play in reference to ‘meta’ because in just about every real use of the word that’s how it works.

Ignorance is not an excuse. It’s not our fault that some people are misinformed.

‘Our’. What does group identity have to do with anything? ><

Meaning, the non-uninformed people will not take responsibility or accountability for the failures of the uninformed people for being uninformed.

Please address my first post.

• How is it (objectively) destructive?

• How are players limited other than how they choose to feel limited?

1) It discourages people from playing the content. This is pretty straightforward, I think. In the past when the ‘meta’ was demanded more than it is now this was more of a problem, but the core cause is still there. If you make people think they have to play a particular way to do content (and to people that play other styles of game, the ‘meta’ has a lot of force), some of them just won’t do it.

This does hurt serious dungeon people too, if more people did 5m content, Anet would still be developing for it.

2) Some dungeons it takes a long time to get a group for anyways, and because people filter via meta, it makes them self-exclude from the other side. This actually ties into point 1. A fragmented, mutually-exclusive community isn’t a healthy one.

Windsagio.1340:

A fragmented, mutually-exclusive community isn’t a healthy one.

If that’s the case, then every MMO community is unhealthy. Heck, no City community is completely healthy. Different people have different desires. Enough members of a municipal community might agree that public order and safety is necessary, making those elements of city life of great importance. You’ll still get people in the community who don’t want public order, or who want it but not enough to pay for it.

In an MMO community, the splits between various demographics are as pronounced as irl, and in some cases maybe more so. In many cases, those different desires are mutually exclusive, to the point of irreconcilable differences. No amount of word wrangling will eliminate those differences.

Heck, the word “meta” does not get used at all in LFG posts — at lest not that I’ve seen. What I see is things like, “Zerk Only,” “Experienced Only,” “X AP Only,” etc. Whether those people think of them as a preference or a meta is irrelevant. The only place I see “meta” used is in the forum.

Windsagio.1340:

1) It discourages people from playing the content. This is pretty straightforward, I think. In the past when the ‘meta’ was demanded more than it is now this was more of a problem, but the core cause is still there. If you make people think they have to play a particular way to do content (and to people that play other styles of game, the ‘meta’ has a lot of force), some of them just won’t do it.

This does hurt serious dungeon people too, if more people did 5m content, Anet would still be developing for it.

2) Some dungeons it takes a long time to get a group for anyways, and because people filter via meta, it makes them self-exclude from the other side. This actually ties into point 1. A fragmented, mutually-exclusive community isn’t a healthy one.

These arent even examples I would use.

For the first one you could say the same of the opposite. Currently the only people discouraged from playing are those who dont put the effort in to find groups which suit them. If they dont put the effort in then we can assume that they dont really want to play the content all that much. On the other hand without the meta people who like to just follow guides or predetermined strategies would not play dungeons. They dont want to learn them for themselves so they follow the meta. You could argue that this stops some people from learning. But at the same time people who already have no interest in learning for themselves will just avoid the content if they cant follow a guide.

If people really want to play dungeons they will find a way. Having a meta or not makes no difference. If they are discouraged by petty things then we can assume that they dont really want to play.

If anything the meta provides more good than it does bad. It gives people choice. It teaches people. And it creates extra levels of enjoyment for those who value speed and competition. If people dont want to learn from the meta or dont want to follow it then they have that choice. Its better to have choice than to not have choice.

The second point is pretty misguided. You can find groups of almost any kind very quickly as long as you arent too restrictive. If people dont divide into sub communities then hostility and toxiciy becomes a major problem when players of different ideals meet. This happens currently when people ignore LFG descriptions. But when people do follow LFG descriptions its not an issue. So having sub communities is healthy as it prevents extra hostility between different types of players.

Spoj The Second.7680:

The second point is pretty misguided. You can find groups of almost any kind very quickly as long as you arent too restrictive. If people dont divide into sub communities then hostility and toxiciy becomes a major problem when players of different ideals meet. This happens currently when people ignore LFG descriptions. But when people do follow LFG descriptions its not an issue. So having sub communities is healthy as it prevents extra hostility between different types of players.

To make a visual explanation for spoj’s comment, watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jra3jV_ckYg