Guild Wars 2

It would be better if the first 5 skills would be little modular, that they could replaced by one or two other skill(s) that would synenergize with the traits.

cargan.5689:

Actually as a long time MMO healer i kinda like the lack of a “healer” i play a guardian and yes i add so many buffs in a group you need a second screen to see them, i ward i heal i regen but im not a “healer” if the warrior charges into 20 mobs and dies its his fault for being an idiot not my fault because i couldnt heal 5 times his health pool in 0.005 seconds

People are used to DPS being all reward and no responsibility, they get agro its the tanks fault, they die its the healers fault now you screw up its YOUR fault no one elses
i like it

Spot on.

Calerxes.1364:

Here’s a question, as Arenanet are attempting to make a more fluid, natural and dynamic MMO wouldn’t the boss encounters feel random if everytime you went in the conditions were slightly different due to things like group set up, RNG etc..? is this a good understanding of a dynamic encounter, one that isn’t the same two times in a row wheresas in a traditional MMO the boss mechanics are exactly the same everytime and you are forced into a set group makeup ie The Trinity. I imagine in warfare no two battles are exactly the same, you have to think on the fly and change according to the conditions presented to you at that time, not a preset set of movements like its an MMO ballet. This will then give the dungeons or boss fight a fresh feel everytime you enter them.

No, I’m not saying model the fights like a WoW fight where you go in knowing what the boss is going to do ahead of time. I like the randomness of the fights. What I’m saying is make it feel like my CC is actually doing something, or my heals are doing something, or if somebody IS getting lambasted by the boss, give each one of us a taunt ability to grab aggro for a little bit or an ability to drop aggro. There just doesn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason in regards to aggro tables and it just seems completely random.

Most of all, coming from a melee player…please, please, PLEASE trim down the spell effects so I can see when a mob/boss is telegraphing a big move so I’m not guessing when to dodge. Mashing buttons while looking at my health bubble to see when to dodge in front of what looks like an abstract watercolor in motion really isn’t much fun.

I’m tired and having a hard time putting it into words right now, but there just doesn’t seem to be much strategy in most (but not all) fights.

Removing the energy bar was a bad decision tbh. It would add a nice layer of gameplay. This game is most likely doomed with all these stripped layers of gameplay

I miss my monk..

I think the lack of a traditional trinity really limits what the combat could have been in this game, but i think they sacrificed it to design the game in a casual manner. The combat has very little depth to it in my opinion and people don’t really group together for combat purposes outside of dungeons..just feels a little poorly put together. I think what’s missing is integral roles. With everyone being able to do basically the same things with minor flavor differences, players lose a bit of their identity and integrity that we were used to with the roles in more traditional MMOs.

I think they could do a lot by way of bringing back the Monk or at least the Ritualist in the coming expansion, buffing the effects of healing power considerably, and just adding a lot more healing skills to the game for each class…maybe even let a player slot a whole bar of healing skills in their utility slots. I dunno, i think that a lot of people miss this defined role. I’d like to see something more, but i don’t want LF Healer coming back…i’d just like to see multiple classes become more viable speccing into support only roles. Plus, i think they can do a lot, creatively, with the Ritualist or Monk in a Cantha expansion and putting a healing centered class in this game doesnt have to make that the only viable way to play. It’d be nice to see a team without a healer just as viable as a team with one rather than just avoiding the paradigm altogether because, frankly, many enjoy it.

This game should’ve been a hybrid. With that I mean, you can play with or without trinity. It should’ve been all up to the players, that way the game would’ve been more interesting and more fun with this various dimensions of gameplay.
Now, the game is most likely doomed.

Flamenco.3894:

This game should’ve been a hybrid. With that I mean, you can play with or without trinity. It should’ve been all up to the players, that way the game would’ve been more interesting and more fun with this various dimensions of gameplay.
Now, the game is most likely doomed.

The complexity to scale for both is near impossible. Trinity was an inferior system anyways, the current system is much better and I don’t get how this will doom the game. You came in knowing very well what to expect.

Lafiel.9372:

Flamenco.3894:

This game should’ve been a hybrid. With that I mean, you can play with or without trinity. It should’ve been all up to the players, that way the game would’ve been more interesting and more fun with this various dimensions of gameplay.
Now, the game is most likely doomed.

The complexity to scale for both is near impossible. Trinity was an inferior system anyways, the current system is much better and I don’t get how this will doom the game. You came in knowing very well what to expect.

Different, yes. Inferior, them be loaded words.

Now, it was fun playing as a healer in ‘other’ games. Keeping people alive where others couldn’t. Silly tanks charging ahead without waiting for mana.

But when you play any other class, it was a pain looking for a healer. Even worse, looking for a proficient healer if you’re looking towards harder instances.

Given the marketing campaign and the ‘casual’ players we see here, it’d be ritual suicide.

Even though removing the trinity (omg i said it) removed the depth in PVE and turned it into a wading pool, at least you’re responsible for your own survival when it comes down to it. This is more of a hindsight than a ‘pro’ for GW2 atm.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Calerxes.1364:

Here’s a question, as Arenanet are attempting to make a more fluid, natural and dynamic MMO wouldn’t the boss encounters feel random if everytime you went in the conditions were slightly different due to things like group set up, RNG etc..? is this a good understanding of a dynamic encounter, one that isn’t the same two times in a row wheresas in a traditional MMO the boss mechanics are exactly the same everytime and you are forced into a set group makeup ie The Trinity. I imagine in warfare no two battles are exactly the same, you have to think on the fly and change according to the conditions presented to you at that time, not a preset set of movements like its an MMO ballet. This will then give the dungeons or boss fight a fresh feel everytime you enter them.

No, I’m not saying model the fights like a WoW fight where you go in knowing what the boss is going to do ahead of time. I like the randomness of the fights. What I’m saying is make it feel like my CC is actually doing something, or my heals are doing something, or if somebody IS getting lambasted by the boss, give each one of us a taunt ability to grab aggro for a little bit or an ability to drop aggro. There just doesn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason in regards to aggro tables and it just seems completely random.

Most of all, coming from a melee player…please, please, PLEASE trim down the spell effects so I can see when a mob/boss is telegraphing a big move so I’m not guessing when to dodge. Mashing buttons while looking at my health bubble to see when to dodge in front of what looks like an abstract watercolor in motion really isn’t much fun.

I’m tired and having a hard time putting it into words right now, but there just doesn’t seem to be much strategy in most (but not all) fights.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

lothefallen.7081:

I miss my monk..

I think the lack of a traditional trinity really limits what the combat could have been in this game, but i think they sacrificed it to design the game in a casual manner. The combat has very little depth to it in my opinion and people don’t really group together for combat purposes outside of dungeons..just feels a little poorly put together. I think what’s missing is integral roles. With everyone being able to do basically the same things with minor flavor differences, players lose a bit of their identity and integrity that we were used to with the roles in more traditional MMOs.

I think they could do a lot by way of bringing back the Monk or at least the Ritualist in the coming expansion, buffing the effects of healing power considerably, and just adding a lot more healing skills to the game for each class…maybe even let a player slot a whole bar of healing skills in their utility slots. I dunno, i think that a lot of people miss this defined role. I’d like to see something more, but i don’t want LF Healer coming back…i’d just like to see multiple classes become more viable speccing into support only roles. Plus, i think they can do a lot, creatively, with the Ritualist or Monk in a Cantha expansion and putting a healing centered class in this game doesnt have to make that the only viable way to play. It’d be nice to see a team without a healer just as viable as a team with one rather than just avoiding the paradigm altogether because, frankly, many enjoy it.

This combat system is about thinking on your feet not spamming a rotation you’ve worked out or read about on interwebz, while expecting the other players to keep you up, hold aggro or nuke, where’s the depth in that? The case for this combat system being shallow is a spurious one with many players complaining (this thread) that they are finding it difficult and wishing they could go back to the cut and dried Holy Trinity. Shallow this system isn’t players are still trying to pigeon hole themselves into roles and not building balanced toons that have a talent in one area but can do the other two disciplines well, and also players need to stop obsessing about DPS and learn about support and control.

The combat is more fluid and natural where you have to do whats needed to be done at the right time. The system is new and original and will take time to be played properly, it isn’t perfect and needs tweeks but its a refreshing change from playing an Affliction Warlock in a group with dot, dot, dot ,tab, dot dot dot, tab, drain, drain, drain you have to be aware of whats actually happening to you and others. I haven’t worked out how to play my Warrior or Engineer properly yet but thats the fun and I’m getting better at slowly

You’re having fun in WvW?
Well, just play PvE like you play PvP.
That’s how GW2 works.

The lack of dedicated healer and also the lack of the artificial threat based taunt tanking system gives more responsibilities for every player in a group. In a real fight, you can bet the enemy won’t go for the strongest armored opponent who has a healer keeping him at full health. They will most likely go to the weakest link, just like enemies in GW2 do.

Uncle Salty.6342:

Now, it was fun playing as a healer in ‘other’ games. Keeping people alive where others couldn’t. Silly tanks charging ahead without waiting for mana.

But when you play any other class, it was a pain looking for a healer. Even worse, looking for a proficient healer if you’re looking towards harder instances.

Given the marketing campaign and the ‘casual’ players we see here, it’d be ritual suicide.

Even though removing the trinity (omg i said it) removed the depth in PVE and turned it into a wading pool, at least you’re responsible for your own survival when it comes down to it. This is more of a hindsight than a ‘pro’ for GW2 atm.

How is it shallow when players don’t even understand what they are doing and just think damage is the be all and end all? could it be that’s all they’ve played previously? In a trinity once you’ve learn to either taunt, stand back and heal or stand back and nuke thats it in small groups, in raids its don’t stand here when boss does this, jump out of the way when boss does that etc.. it took me a few hours to learn my role in other trinity based games in GW2 I’m still learning over 100 hours in. I’m all for expanding the trinity like in EQ, EQ2 and Vanguard where you have buffers and debuffers, pullers, mezzers etc.. more specialist roles, though please do it in other games not GW2, but my overall feelings here is that the general MMO playerbase has never played those types of roles and wouldn’t get them either they just love the pew pew and thats it.

I don’t miss healers. Everyone has a self heal. If I die, at least I know it’s mostly my own fault and I could have prevented it. Also I try to optimize my heal AOEs so I still contribute as a healer. I’m just not dedicated to healing, and happy because of it.

I don’t miss “LFG MONKS” hulabaloo at all.

Yeah, it`s “LFG zerk Warrior” now.

Aelaren.3784:

I don’t miss “LFG MONKS” hulabaloo at all.

Yeah, it`s “LFG zerk Warrior” now.

The difference is that previously you needed a healer for just about everything. What you’re complaining about is closer to UWSCs than anything else, since pretty much the only time I see widespread demand for specific classes are CoF or Fractals speed runs. There’s a difference between actually needing something and a group of players demanding something for the purpose of accomplishing a specific goal (clearing the dungeon as quickly as possible).

Any time I make a post on gw2lfg and specify that any class is welcome my groups full up quickly enough.

Calerxes.1364:

This combat system is about thinking on your feet not spamming a rotation you’ve worked out or read about on interwebz, while expecting the other players to keep you up, hold aggro or nuke, where’s the depth in that? The case for this combat system being shallow is a spurious one with many players complaining (this thread) that they are finding it difficult and wishing they could go back to the cut and dried Holy Trinity. Shallow this system isn’t players are still trying to pigeon hole themselves into roles and not building balanced toons that have a talent in one area but can do the other two disciplines well, and also players need to stop obsessing about DPS and learn about support and control.

I am afraid the case for the combat in GW2 being more deep is the only spurious argument, it seems to be entirely based on comparisons to the most simple of DPS classes in other MMOs, the fact is many healers, tanks and support / CC classes required far more awareness, decision making and mulitasking than the simplistic stuff you get in GW2.

For example when I used to play LOTRO I played Loremaster a support class, on raids I had to do all this:

- Keep stun immunity up on tank (sometimes off-tank / tank healer)
- Cleanse wounds, diseases, silence etc
- Keep up several debuffs
- Drain power from boss and feed power to key players – healers/tanks/captains
- Provide CC, often needding to perma CC one mob (sometimes 2)
- Off heal
- Provide a res if healers/captain were out
- Do some DPS, particulalry against adds as Loremasters had very high burst AOE.
- Peel (cc/debuff/get my pet oo them) a rogue mob off someone who got aggro that shouldn’t of, or help them out if it was intended (this may come as a shock but other games have dungeons / raids where certain mobs delibrately go after someone other than a tank/off-tank)
- All whilst maangaing a pet.

The same goes for PvP, when I played Rift, my favourite class/spec to play in PvP was chlorodom a sort of CC/debuffing/support/semi-healer, again it required far more multitasking / awareness / decison making than anything in GW2 is simpistic in comparision, I’d have to:

- Drain enemy healers of mana.
- Heal people using multiple skills and shockingly have to make numerous decisions to prioritise not just in the sense that there were more than 5 people, but that healers > support > top dps ->the rest and also assessing who was in danger of goign down who would be alright. (this can not be overemphasised enough in PvP, the amount of decision making you have to make as a healer, whilst trying to stay alive, LOS/CC your oppnents / keep your team in LOS, is on a completely different level to playing a DPS class or anything in GW2)
- CC / debuff, again having to actually prioritise.
- Try and actually kill people, which shockingly enough actually required skills in the correct order and the correct selection of skills depending on the build of your opponent.
- Use my othe rsupport skills like Reflective Presence which reflected caster skills.
– All this whilst being constantly focused by the opponents in a way you very rarely are in gw2.

Then of course there was actually resource management, both yours and in PvP taking note of your opponents, resource managmetn in gw2 is nearly non-existent, as are things like situational skills.

There is also knowledge, for instance everyone in GW2 has the same few buffs (different skills, but all give the same result with the same symbol for protection, retail, etc) in other games there are numerous buffs / debuffs individual to builds classes with different effects, that all have their own symbol.

I was playing my thief as p/d in WvW the other day, I have never played more a simplistic build in PvP in any MMO I have ever played, GW2 is not complex, far from it, it lacks depth.

But anyway, in regard to the OP, complexity aside, the thing I miss about healer is the total change of playstyle you get, that variety of playstyle is lacking in GW2.

Oh yes in regard to playstyle variety, the way they have designed / capped conditions is awful and just reduces build diversity.

The gameplay is actually pretty deep. Much deeper than in classic MMOs, what with all the interactivity between classes, conditions, traits etc.

It’s just that ANet made the game too easy, so you can faceroll your way through it and people actually think that’s the way it was meant to be played.

Unfortunately, there would be an upheaval if they upped the difficulty so that if you don’t use all your skills, trait/skill synergies, dodging, self- and group combos, you simply get stomped in PvE.

They made a pretty good system, but allowed players to ignore it for the sake of accessibility.

Play a guardian. Tank+healer, god class alongside the warrior inb the PvE pantheon.

Split on this topic. On one side I’m glad they got rid of traditional healers and tanks because there’s nothing worse than not being able to do something because you couldn’t find a tank and/or healer to run a group with.

On the other side, I was lying above… there is something worse than not being able to run something because you’re missing a tank and/or a healer. It’s that the dungeon you’re now running is so insanely stupid and scripted because they got rid of tanks and healers.

While I much prefer the method we have here, I think we have a very long ways to go before instances are ever a ‘fun’ mechanic in this game. Every boss encounter is a gimmick fight and getting to bosses is made difficult by swarming you with mobs that spam AE knockdowns/knocbacks. Very stupid.

Sylosi.6503:

Calerxes.1364:

This combat system is about thinking on your feet not spamming a rotation you’ve worked out or read about on interwebz, while expecting the other players to keep you up, hold aggro or nuke, where’s the depth in that? The case for this combat system being shallow is a spurious one with many players complaining (this thread) that they are finding it difficult and wishing they could go back to the cut and dried Holy Trinity. Shallow this system isn’t players are still trying to pigeon hole themselves into roles and not building balanced toons that have a talent in one area but can do the other two disciplines well, and also players need to stop obsessing about DPS and learn about support and control.

I am afraid the case for the combat in GW2 being more deep is the only spurious argument, it seems to be entirely based on comparisons to the most simple of DPS classes in other MMOs, the fact is many healers, tanks and support / CC classes required far more awareness, decision making and mulitasking than the simplistic stuff you get in GW2.

For example when I used to play LOTRO I played Loremaster a support class, on raids I had to do all this:

- Keep stun immunity up on tank (sometimes off-tank / tank healer)
- Cleanse wounds, diseases, silence etc
- Keep up several debuffs
- Drain power from boss and feed power to key players – healers/tanks/captains
- Provide CC, often needding to perma CC one mob (sometimes 2)
- Off heal
- Provide a res if healers/captain were out
- Do some DPS, particulalry against adds as Loremasters had very high burst AOE.
- Peel (cc/debuff/get my pet oo them) a rogue mob off someone who got aggro that shouldn’t of, or help them out if it was intended (this may come as a shock but other games have dungeons / raids where certain mobs delibrately go after someone other than a tank/off-tank)
- All whilst maangaing a pet.

The same goes for PvP, when I played Rift, my favourite class/spec to play in PvP was chlorodom a sort of CC/debuffing/support/semi-healer, again it required far more multitasking / awareness / decison making than anything in GW2 is simpistic in comparision, I’d have to:

- Drain enemy healers of mana.
- Heal people using multiple skills and shockingly have to make numerous decisions to prioritise not just in the sense that there were more than 5 people, but that healers > support > top dps ->the rest and also assessing who was in danger of goign down who would be alright. (this can not be overemphasised enough in PvP, the amount of decision making you have to make as a healer, whilst trying to stay alive, LOS/CC your oppnents / keep your team in LOS, is on a completely different level to playing a DPS class or anything in GW2)
- CC / debuff, again having to actually prioritise.
- Try and actually kill people, which shockingly enough actually required skills in the correct order and the correct selection of skills depending on the build of your opponent.
- Use my othe rsupport skills like Reflective Presence which reflected caster skills.
– All this whilst being constantly focused by the opponents in a way you very rarely are in gw2.

Then of course there was actually resource management, both yours and in PvP taking note of your opponents, resource managmetn in gw2 is nearly non-existent, as are things like situational skills.

SNIP!

All the things you are doing on your Loremaster are now spread among all the classes in GW2 and a few of them like cleanse wounds etc… can be sorted by the players by taking salves into a dungeons and other things you are doing should not require you to do them like heal and rez. In GW2 all players have the responsibility to remove conditions, mitigate damage (by movement), heal themselves, control mobs, remove control effects, rez players. Players have to be aware of the players around them and not expect the Loremaster/healer/tank to be on the ball all the time.

Responsibility is with everyone and not just the tank/healer/support class in the group and I did go on to mention more sophisticated trinity games, I’m not bashing trinity MMO’s other than maybe WoW, so you can include LotRO in that. The point is that playing GW2 efficiently and successfully takes skill and understanding of the classes and thinking in terms of individual roles and is thus not a “simplistic” system as the bodies strewn all over Tyria waiting to be rezzed would not exist. But its not perfect and is a new concept so will take time to iron out the wrinkles, think back to earlier MMO’s and their boss mechanics were all Tank ‘n’ Spank on the whole, it took time to start adding in some complexity. Lets have something different like GW2’s system and it may encourage other dev’s to take a risk and design their own “non trinity” system.

Calerxes.1364:

All the things you are doing on your Loremaster are now spread among all the classes in GW2 and a few of them like cleanse wounds etc… can be sorted by the players by taking salves into a dungeons and other things you are doing should not require you to do them like heal and rez. In GW2 all players have the responsibility to remove conditions, mitigate damage (by movement), heal themselves, control mobs, remove control effects, rez players. Players have to be aware of the players around them and not expect the Loremaster/healer/tank to be on the ball all the time.

Responsibility is with everyone and not just the tank/healer/support class in the group and I did go on to mention more sophisticated trinity games, I’m not bashing trinity MMO’s other than maybe WoW, so you can include LotRO in that. The point is that playing GW2 efficiently and successfully takes skill and understanding of the classes and thinking in terms of individual roles and is thus not a “simplistic” system as the bodies strewn all over Tyria waiting to be rezzed would not exist. But its not perfect and is a new concept so will take time to iron out the wrinkles, think back to earlier MMO’s and their boss mechanics were all Tank ‘n’ Spank on the whole, it took time to start adding in some complexity. Lets have something different like GW2’s system and it may encourage other dev’s to take a risk and design their own “non trinity” system.

I agree the game is new so it may have more complexity added to it, but as for the rest, you are talking about two seperate issues, responsibilty and depth/complexity, the game is simply not as complex for all the reasons I mentioned before, that my loremaster’s duties are spread out to various classes/builds in GW2 just means when I play as an individual my GW2 classes are less complex, require less awareness, less multitasking, less decision making, less priortizating than my loremaster, chlorodom, etc in other games.

But to an extent that is understandable, GW2 is a game that has a more action type style, so requires more movement (though not all games are as static as WoW, and PvP is not static in any game, unless you like to die a lot), and generally more twitch.

As for responsibilty I am not even sure I agree with that, a player is more responsible for themselves, but on the other hand if you are used to playing a healer/tank/key support (in games that have those) it is a step down in responsibility. Also overall the game is currently much more forgiving, so in other ways promotes less responsibiity – e.g, in a raid a DPS can still cause a wipe, or will be assigned as interrupter or will simply not output enough DPS because the margins for success in many other games for things like enrage timers are far more severe.

But anyway just to clarify, I don’t want GW2 to go the whole trinty route, it is nice they are doing something a bit different (though not that differnet action type MMOs often lack real healers and/or tanks), just doesn’t stop me sometimes missing a bit more complexity/multitasking or the total change of playstyle that healer provides.

Domo.7618:

Ahoy the mates.

This post is not meant to be a flame or whatever.

Its only a small feedback.

I like it that Arena.net trying to find ther own mmorpg way and make something unique. But I realy miss the classic healer and tank class in this game.
I am playing anyways to 95%+ only in the WvW, but that ther arnt any realy tank (taunt) or healer class in this game is the main resson why I dont go on dungeon runs or PvE raids.

just my 2 cents
(sorry about my bad english)

roll a guardian. enjoy life.

cargan.5689:

Actually as a long time MMO healer i kinda like the lack of a “healer” i play a guardian and yes i add so many buffs in a group you need a second screen to see them, i ward i heal i regen but im not a “healer” if the warrior charges into 20 mobs and dies its his fault for being an idiot not my fault because i couldnt heal 5 times his health pool in 0.005 seconds

People are used to DPS being all reward and no responsibility, they get agro its the tanks fault, they die its the healers fault now you screw up its YOUR fault no one elses
i like it

Took the words right out of my mouth

tbh the problem isn’t the system, it’s the encounters, they could be a lot more complex.

Sylosi.6503:

Calerxes.1364:

All the things you are doing on your Loremaster are now spread among all the classes in GW2 and a few of them like cleanse wounds etc… can be sorted by the players by taking salves into a dungeons and other things you are doing should not require you to do them like heal and rez. In GW2 all players have the responsibility to remove conditions, mitigate damage (by movement), heal themselves, control mobs, remove control effects, rez players. Players have to be aware of the players around them and not expect the Loremaster/healer/tank to be on the ball all the time.

Responsibility is with everyone and not just the tank/healer/support class in the group and I did go on to mention more sophisticated trinity games, I’m not bashing trinity MMO’s other than maybe WoW, so you can include LotRO in that. The point is that playing GW2 efficiently and successfully takes skill and understanding of the classes and thinking in terms of individual roles and is thus not a “simplistic” system as the bodies strewn all over Tyria waiting to be rezzed would not exist. But its not perfect and is a new concept so will take time to iron out the wrinkles, think back to earlier MMO’s and their boss mechanics were all Tank ‘n’ Spank on the whole, it took time to start adding in some complexity. Lets have something different like GW2’s system and it may encourage other dev’s to take a risk and design their own “non trinity” system.

I agree the game is new so it may have more complexity added to it, but as for the rest, you are talking about two seperate issues, responsibilty and depth/complexity, the game is simply not as complex for all the reasons I mentioned before, that my loremaster’s duties are spread out to various classes/builds in GW2 just means when I play as an individual my GW2 classes are less complex, require less awareness, less multitasking, less decision making, less priortizating than my loremaster, chlorodom, etc in other games.

But to an extent that is understandable, GW2 is a game that has a more action type style, so requires more movement (though not all games are as static as WoW, and PvP is not static in any game, unless you like to die a lot), and generally more twitch.

As for responsibilty I am not even sure I agree with that, a player is more responsible for themselves, but on the other hand if you are used to playing a healer/tank/key support (in games that have those) it is a step down in responsibility. Also overall the game is currently much more forgiving, so in other ways promotes less responsibiity – e.g, in a raid a DPS can still cause a wipe, or will be assigned as interrupter or will simply not output enough DPS because the margins for success in many other games for things like enrage timers are far more severe.

But anyway just to clarify, I don’t want GW2 to go the whole trinty route, it is nice they are doing something a bit different (though not that differnet action type MMOs often lack real healers and/or tanks), just doesn’t stop me sometimes missing a bit more complexity/multitasking or the total change of playstyle that healer provides.

You are not talking about complexity you are talking about fulfilling a role and if the group is set up properly you’ll have just that responsibility, thats not complexity that just playing your role properly and certain roles carry the rest of the group, its a simplification, just because you have a few more buttons to press doesn’t mean a thing. When the group has to react to changing conditions of the fight on the fly that adds complexity because you have to know how to adapt at that precise moment, its like going from an automatic car to a manual you now have better more responsive control over the situation if it goes wrong you can pull it back, in your scenario once the tank/healer combo goes down, wipe, game over, you cannot get it back and thus all the raging on healers and tanks not doing their job properly. In holy trinity games you have one thing to do on the whole and most choose the easy option DPS, thus when faced with playing other roles they freak out, thus GW2 forums. And this is all based around gearscore before you even start. Its like comparing the complexity of Formula One and WRC, WRC is a massively more complex sport in regards to actually driving skills while F1 is procession technology the ones with the biggest gearscore win.

lothefallen.7081:

I think the lack of a traditional trinity really limits what the combat could have been in this game, but i think they sacrificed it to design the game in a casual manner.

I think what’s missing is integral roles. With everyone being able to do basically the same things with minor flavor differences, players lose a bit of their identity and integrity that we were used to with the roles in more traditional MMOs.

I don’t think the lack of the trinity limits combat or was a sacrifice in terms of combats.

Every MMO and their brother have the trinity and it’s getting good and kitten kitten boring.

People being forced into roles they don’t want to play because “well, we need a healer”, people having to gear out characters they don’t even like because they are forced to bring certain “specs” to dungeons.

Thank goodness the trinity is gone in GW2. It’s about time a game company had the kittens to release an MMO without them. And to stand by them.

I don’t think anyone has “lost their role” or identity as a player. I play a ranger. I know exactly what I’m supposed to do (and not do).

I feel like my ranger is mine and I’m thrilled that I don’t have some poor person standing in the back spamming a heal bar just to keep me alive through ridiculous game gimmicks.

Calerxes.1364:

You are not talking about complexity you are talking about fulfilling a role and if the group is set up properly you’ll have just that responsibility, thats not complexity that just playing your role properly and certain roles carry the rest of the group, its a simplification, just because you have a few more buttons to press doesn’t mean a thing. When the group has to react to changing conditions of the fight on the fly that adds complexity because you have to know how to adapt at that precise moment, its like going from an automatic car to a manual you now have better more responsive control over the situation if it goes wrong you can pull it back, in your scenario once the tank/healer combo goes down, wipe, game over, you cannot get it back and thus all the raging on healers and tanks not doing their job properly. In holy trinity games you have one thing to do on the whole and most choose the easy option DPS, thus when faced with playing other roles they freak out, thus GW2 forums. And this is all based around gearscore before you even start. Its like comparing the complexity of Formula One and WRC, WRC is a massively more complex sport in regards to actually driving skills while F1 is procession technology the ones with the biggest gearscore win.

I’m sorry, but suggesting the fights could have a bit more complexity and depth is not me “freaking out” because I don’t know how to play other roles. It’s my opinion. Just as the thousands of words you have typed are your opinion.

Any way, it’s clear there is a fundamental difference between you and those who seem to agree with me. You think the fight mechanics are wonderful and need no tuning whatsoever. I simply don’t. You also seem to think your opinion is the correct one so I don’t see any point in continuing with this.

But I say again…just because people don’t see it the way you do in no way means they are “freaking out,” so you may want to cut back on the hyperbole a bit.

Domo.7618:

I like it that Arena.net trying to find ther own mmorpg way and make something unique. But I realy miss the classic healer and tank class in this game.

You know what I DON’T miss? Sitting around in town spamming “lf healer” or “lf tank” just so I can participate in some aspect of the game.

As a FFXI vet (a paladin), I saw enough players sitting around town unable to get anything done because the supply of specific jobs (red mage and bard) couldn’t meet demand. And people would not form parties without these jobs, or a tank and healer (obviously). That, with a glut of dps jobs, lead far too many players sitting around town spamming “lfg” or “party 5/6 lf rdm or brd”.

I’ve already seen enough people at dungeons shouting “lf1m, warrior or guardian only”. The last thing this game needs is another profession deemed to be a “must have” for dungeons.

Thank you all for your comments so far on this topic.
I am not saying that the classic-trinity-group-system is the best, but I miss the pure healer class in this game.

Its complety fine that players dont have to look for special classes in gw2 to do a dungeon-run. Ive also didnt made this topic to flame or cry about the gw2 system or anythink. All I am saying is that “I” miss the pure healer class here because I like to play such class/role.

This is just a small feedback, not more.

I would like it to have a healer class in this game but not as a “must have in dungeon”.

Well, sorry about my bad english and thanks a lot to the players who write here guids or even send me links to guides. But I knew that ther are ways to play a “semi-healer” or a supporter, but its not a healer class wich I would like to play.

Even though my english sucks, I think everyone should understand my point of view now.

I doubt Arena.net will change ther game just because I write a small feedback, but mabye this feedback will help them in the futher.

I miss the Healer class, and I dont want it that way that a healer is needed for a dungeon group. I just miss the pure healer/supporter class because I love it to play such role, thats all.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Calerxes.1364:

You are not talking about complexity you are talking about fulfilling a role and if the group is set up properly you’ll have just that responsibility, thats not complexity that just playing your role properly and certain roles carry the rest of the group, its a simplification, just because you have a few more buttons to press doesn’t mean a thing. When the group has to react to changing conditions of the fight on the fly that adds complexity because you have to know how to adapt at that precise moment, its like going from an automatic car to a manual you now have better more responsive control over the situation if it goes wrong you can pull it back, in your scenario once the tank/healer combo goes down, wipe, game over, you cannot get it back and thus all the raging on healers and tanks not doing their job properly. In holy trinity games you have one thing to do on the whole and most choose the easy option DPS, thus when faced with playing other roles they freak out, thus GW2 forums. And this is all based around gearscore before you even start. Its like comparing the complexity of Formula One and WRC, WRC is a massively more complex sport in regards to actually driving skills while F1 is procession technology the ones with the biggest gearscore win.

I’m sorry, but suggesting the fights could have a bit more complexity and depth is not me “freaking out” because I don’t know how to play other roles. It’s my opinion. Just as the thousands of words you have typed are your opinion.

Any way, it’s clear there is a fundamental difference between you and those who seem to agree with me. You think the fight mechanics are wonderful and need no tuning whatsoever. I simply don’t. You also seem to think your opinion is the correct one so I don’t see any point in continuing with this.

But I say again…just because people don’t see it the way you do in no way means they are “freaking out,” so you may want to cut back on the hyperbole a bit.

I’ll quote myself..

“But its not perfect and is a new concept so it will take time to iron out the wrinkles, think back to earlier MMO’s and their boss mechanics were all Tank ‘n’ Spank on the whole, it took time to start adding in some complexity”

lothefallen.7081:

…people don’t really group together for combat purposes outside of dungeons…

This is the case in a majority of MMO’s nowadays.

Even in GW, you didn’t need to group up with people (since you had henchies and heroes, and the majority of it you could do ‘solo’.)

Only the really tough content required people to group up.

lothefallen.7081:

It’d be nice to see a team without a healer just as viable as a team with one rather than just avoiding the paradigm altogether because, frankly, many enjoy it.

How do you balance encounters then?

A team with a healer will be able to complete things faster and easier than a team without, meaning they’d need to balance the encounter around ALL teams having a healer, which, in turn, would make completing content without a healer nigh-on impossible without specific builds / group makeup.

Some things I agree with you on. I miss how skills would interact with each other, and bosses could be given more mechanics (or the mechanics being adjusted to have more importance so you can’t brute-force your way through) but I disagree that having a healer brings more depth.

It just adds a gate, and the required ‘tactic’ of ‘protect the healer otherwise we’re screwed’.

Calerxes.1364:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Calerxes.1364:

You are not talking about complexity you are talking about fulfilling a role and if the group is set up properly you’ll have just that responsibility, thats not complexity that just playing your role properly and certain roles carry the rest of the group, its a simplification, just because you have a few more buttons to press doesn’t mean a thing. When the group has to react to changing conditions of the fight on the fly that adds complexity because you have to know how to adapt at that precise moment, its like going from an automatic car to a manual you now have better more responsive control over the situation if it goes wrong you can pull it back, in your scenario once the tank/healer combo goes down, wipe, game over, you cannot get it back and thus all the raging on healers and tanks not doing their job properly. In holy trinity games you have one thing to do on the whole and most choose the easy option DPS, thus when faced with playing other roles they freak out, thus GW2 forums. And this is all based around gearscore before you even start. Its like comparing the complexity of Formula One and WRC, WRC is a massively more complex sport in regards to actually driving skills while F1 is procession technology the ones with the biggest gearscore win.

I’m sorry, but suggesting the fights could have a bit more complexity and depth is not me “freaking out” because I don’t know how to play other roles. It’s my opinion. Just as the thousands of words you have typed are your opinion.

Any way, it’s clear there is a fundamental difference between you and those who seem to agree with me. You think the fight mechanics are wonderful and need no tuning whatsoever. I simply don’t. You also seem to think your opinion is the correct one so I don’t see any point in continuing with this.

But I say again…just because people don’t see it the way you do in no way means they are “freaking out,” so you may want to cut back on the hyperbole a bit.

I’ll quote myself..

“But its not perfect and is a new concept so it will take time to iron out the wrinkles, think back to earlier MMO’s and their boss mechanics were all Tank ‘n’ Spank on the whole, it took time to start adding in some complexity”

Ok, I’ll give you that.

hi all
t’is my first post and I want to congratulate the developers for making such a beautiful and immersing game and the community for being passionate and active.

It was the right topic because I realized that most dungeon enemies are classbased (warrior, necro, ranger, stuff) but there are also monks at some times. I think they’d make a great expansion to the existing raster when the time is right. So far there is still much to try in the game and I think it is an interesting task to get the right set of runes, glyphs and skills/traits for making your very own pristthief (or whatever).