no balance to the pve side yet again?? why?

no balance to the pve side yet again?? why?

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Posted by: Amaranthe.3578

Amaranthe.3578

fine its kk that u balance pvp but why oh my are u not even addressing the fact that nobody wants thieves,guards,non support druid rangers,non condi necros,non condi engis and many many others in raids or in any hard pve content?
why are u not even addressing the fact that pve is nasty dps-race?

no balance to the pve side yet again?? why?

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

They shouldn’t balance PvE based on what certain groups of players prefer to use including those that choose to blindly follow them.

no balance to the pve side yet again?? why?

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Posted by: Lightsbane.9012

Lightsbane.9012

you pvers have gotten everything you wanted out of balance for the last three years.
it’s your turn to wait.

As quick as the Valkyries ride,
As true as Odin’s spear flies,
There is nowhere to hide.

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Posted by: Laraley.7695

Laraley.7695

Be happy. Ever since anet started balancing pvp, it’s been going downhill.

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Posted by: Iason Evan.3806

Iason Evan.3806

There isn’t a “side” to balance. Skill balance affects all game modes despite the fact that all game modes are completely different from one another. Until they do skill splits for the various modes in this game, it will always be this way.

Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall

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Posted by: Mortifer.2946

Mortifer.2946

They do have skill balance splitting tech for like 2 years now. Why the hell don’t they use it? I don’t even play PvP anymore. I want to raid but I can’t because my prof is a garbage!!!

no balance to the pve side yet again?? why?

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Posted by: Amaranthe.3578

Amaranthe.3578

They do have skill balance splitting tech for like 2 years now. Why the hell don’t they use it? I don’t even play PvP anymore. I want to raid but I can’t because my prof is a garbage!!!

this!!!!
i know that balancing pvp is hard we get it
but balancing pve is so kittening easy my labrador can do it

no balance to the pve side yet again?? why?

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

They do have skill balance splitting tech for like 2 years now. Why the hell don’t they use it? I don’t even play PvP anymore. I want to raid but I can’t because my prof is a garbage!!!

this!!!!
i know that balancing pvp is hard we get it
but balancing pve is so kittening easy my labrador can do it

And how would you balance the classes if it’s so easy? Exactly what would you do?

no balance to the pve side yet again?? why?

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Posted by: Amaranthe.3578

Amaranthe.3578

They do have skill balance splitting tech for like 2 years now. Why the hell don’t they use it? I don’t even play PvP anymore. I want to raid but I can’t because my prof is a garbage!!!

this!!!!
i know that balancing pvp is hard we get it
but balancing pve is so kittening easy my labrador can do it

And how would you balance the classes if it’s so easy? Exactly what would you do?

Give classes unique party buffs so that even if it does a bit less damage you would rather bring for example a warr a thief and a herald(good $.#) instead of 3 heralds hurr rdurrrrr(bad .)
every mmo since the dawn of time does that to avoid class stacking

no balance to the pve side yet again?? why?

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

They do have skill balance splitting tech for like 2 years now. Why the hell don’t they use it? I don’t even play PvP anymore. I want to raid but I can’t because my prof is a garbage!!!

this!!!!
i know that balancing pvp is hard we get it
but balancing pve is so kittening easy my labrador can do it

And how would you balance the classes if it’s so easy? Exactly what would you do?

Give classes unique party buffs so that even if it does a bit less damage you would rather bring for example a warr a thief and a herald(good $.#) instead of 3 heralds hurr rdurrrrr(bad .)
every mmo since the dawn of time does that to avoid class stacking

Every class does have something unique.

However, having something unique does not make it worth taking. This will always be the case and doesn’t change even if you split balance between PvE and PvP.

Part of the problem with the current state of “Balance” if you will, is that it happens so infrequently, and is inconsistent by design. If you read their “state of the game” they intend the next balance patch to shake up the meta drastically…This should never ever be a design goal. A more realistic goal would be to have a shape for which you want PvP to be in and aim for that with constant small tweaks during season while using off-season/pre-season to brainstorm and test more holistic changes (things like new maps/modes/changes to match making etc.).

PvE problems are a can and a half for other reason. Mob design and Mob AI limit any sort of builds that are “reactionary” eg. Daredevil (thief in general) and the constant design change to remove skill viability (see removing stealth from cannon phase of Mai Trin) doesn’t promote skilled/strategic gameplay like it really should.

Of course there’s always a numerical side to balance that is out of whack somewhere, but if all classes were “equal” you would run into the class stacking issue we already have. Thus the problem with “balance” on either side of it you run into the same issue of stacking whatever is most optimal.

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Posted by: Amaranthe.3578

Amaranthe.3578

They do have skill balance splitting tech for like 2 years now. Why the hell don’t they use it? I don’t even play PvP anymore. I want to raid but I can’t because my prof is a garbage!!!

this!!!!
i know that balancing pvp is hard we get it
but balancing pve is so kittening easy my labrador can do it

And how would you balance the classes if it’s so easy? Exactly what would you do?

Give classes unique party buffs so that even if it does a bit less damage you would rather bring for example a warr a thief and a herald(good $.#) instead of 3 heralds hurr rdurrrrr(bad .)
every mmo since the dawn of time does that to avoid class stacking

Every class does have something unique.

However, having something unique does not make it worth taking. This will always be the case and doesn’t change even if you split balance between PvE and PvP.

Part of the problem with the current state of “Balance” if you will, is that it happens so infrequently, and is inconsistent by design. If you read their “state of the game” they intend the next balance patch to shake up the meta drastically…This should never ever be a design goal. A more realistic goal would be to have a shape for which you want PvP to be in and aim for that with constant small tweaks during season while using off-season/pre-season to brainstorm and test more holistic changes (things like new maps/modes/changes to match making etc.).

PvE problems are a can and a half for other reason. Mob design and Mob AI limit any sort of builds that are “reactionary” eg. Daredevil (thief in general) and the constant design change to remove skill viability (see removing stealth from cannon phase of Mai Trin) doesn’t promote skilled/strategic gameplay like it really should.

Of course there’s always a numerical side to balance that is out of whack somewhere, but if all classes were “equal” you would run into the class stacking issue we already have. Thus the problem with “balance” on either side of it you run into the same issue of stacking whatever is most optimal.

my point was rather simple
mesmers for examples have rather low damage yet u still want 1 in your group over a double anythin else cuz they have a unique buff
every class needs some uniue buff,at least those with less dps

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

They do have skill balance splitting tech for like 2 years now. Why the hell don’t they use it? I don’t even play PvP anymore. I want to raid but I can’t because my prof is a garbage!!!

this!!!!
i know that balancing pvp is hard we get it
but balancing pve is so kittening easy my labrador can do it

And how would you balance the classes if it’s so easy? Exactly what would you do?

Give classes unique party buffs so that even if it does a bit less damage you would rather bring for example a warr a thief and a herald(good $.#) instead of 3 heralds hurr rdurrrrr(bad .)
every mmo since the dawn of time does that to avoid class stacking

How’s that “balanced”?

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Posted by: Rukia.9860

Rukia.9860

Thieves are getting heavier autoattacks so the dps may be well worth it to take one.

Also other tweaks but I have no idea what… so I wouldn’t say changes aren’t coming.

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Posted by: Amaranthe.3578

Amaranthe.3578

They do have skill balance splitting tech for like 2 years now. Why the hell don’t they use it? I don’t even play PvP anymore. I want to raid but I can’t because my prof is a garbage!!!

this!!!!
i know that balancing pvp is hard we get it
but balancing pve is so kittening easy my labrador can do it

And how would you balance the classes if it’s so easy? Exactly what would you do?

Give classes unique party buffs so that even if it does a bit less damage you would rather bring for example a warr a thief and a herald(good $.#) instead of 3 heralds hurr rdurrrrr(bad .)
every mmo since the dawn of time does that to avoid class stacking

How’s that “balanced”?

every class will be wanted and stacking wont be optimal durrrrrr
is it that faking hard to comprehend?
it will solve the pve issue

no balance to the pve side yet again?? why?

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

They do have skill balance splitting tech for like 2 years now. Why the hell don’t they use it? I don’t even play PvP anymore. I want to raid but I can’t because my prof is a garbage!!!

this!!!!
i know that balancing pvp is hard we get it
but balancing pve is so kittening easy my labrador can do it

And how would you balance the classes if it’s so easy? Exactly what would you do?

Give classes unique party buffs so that even if it does a bit less damage you would rather bring for example a warr a thief and a herald(good $.#) instead of 3 heralds hurr rdurrrrr(bad .)
every mmo since the dawn of time does that to avoid class stacking

How’s that “balanced”?

every class will be wanted and stacking wont be optimal durrrrrr
is it that faking hard to comprehend?
it will solve the pve issue

It won’t. Of everything that those classes uniquely provide, people will determine which are the most optimal to have and then form a meta around that. Classes will still be “excluded”. There will still be an imbalance.

no balance to the pve side yet again?? why?

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Posted by: Amaranthe.3578

Amaranthe.3578

They do have skill balance splitting tech for like 2 years now. Why the hell don’t they use it? I don’t even play PvP anymore. I want to raid but I can’t because my prof is a garbage!!!

this!!!!
i know that balancing pvp is hard we get it
but balancing pve is so kittening easy my labrador can do it

And how would you balance the classes if it’s so easy? Exactly what would you do?

Give classes unique party buffs so that even if it does a bit less damage you would rather bring for example a warr a thief and a herald(good $.#) instead of 3 heralds hurr rdurrrrr(bad .)
every mmo since the dawn of time does that to avoid class stacking

How’s that “balanced”?

every class will be wanted and stacking wont be optimal durrrrrr
is it that faking hard to comprehend?
it will solve the pve issue

It won’t. Of everything that those classes uniquely provide, people will determine which are the most optimal to have and then form a meta around that. Classes will still be “excluded”. There will still be an imbalance.

it will.
because it should create an environment where the optinal 10 man raid has 1 of each class in it
4 faks sake wow has done this for years

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Posted by: Squee.7829

Squee.7829

There will always be metas. People will always be exclusive to those meta builds. At least now the meta includes more than just “zerk or GTFO” nonsense.
Lets use necromancers for example. Current meta demands condi necros. But let’s say Anet makes lifesteal necros better. Now no one will accept any necromancer that isn’t lifesteal. You’re not being inclusive to both types of necromancer, youre just making condi necros obsolete. (my spell check is going crazy)
And outside of dungeons and raids, you can really use whatever you want. Even if it isn’t meta.

Leader and sole member of the “Bring Penguins to Tyria” movement.

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Posted by: cranos.5913

cranos.5913

They shouldn’t balance PvE based on what certain groups of players prefer to use including those that choose to blindly follow them.

That argument might have worked for dungeons and fractals pre-HoT, but the harder you make content, the more exclusive people are going to get. Furthermore “blindly following” is an even worse statement. One would be blind NOT to see the advantages of bringing certain classes over others. I really don’t see how it wouldn’t benefit the game to balance out classes a bit more so people have more options.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

They do have skill balance splitting tech for like 2 years now. Why the hell don’t they use it? I don’t even play PvP anymore. I want to raid but I can’t because my prof is a garbage!!!

this!!!!
i know that balancing pvp is hard we get it
but balancing pve is so kittening easy my labrador can do it

And how would you balance the classes if it’s so easy? Exactly what would you do?

Give classes unique party buffs so that even if it does a bit less damage you would rather bring for example a warr a thief and a herald(good $.#) instead of 3 heralds hurr rdurrrrr(bad .)
every mmo since the dawn of time does that to avoid class stacking

How’s that “balanced”?

every class will be wanted and stacking wont be optimal durrrrrr
is it that faking hard to comprehend?
it will solve the pve issue

It won’t. Of everything that those classes uniquely provide, people will determine which are the most optimal to have and then form a meta around that. Classes will still be “excluded”. There will still be an imbalance.

it will.
because it should create an environment where the optinal 10 man raid has 1 of each class in it
4 faks sake wow has done this for years

It won’t. We have classes right now which provide unique things and yet some are preferred over others because people find them more optimal. Also keep in mind that optimal and viable are not the same thing. Just because some people find such and such as optimal, doesn’t mean that you have to follow them.

They shouldn’t balance PvE based on what certain groups of players prefer to use including those that choose to blindly follow them.

That argument might have worked for dungeons and fractals pre-HoT, but the harder you make content, the more exclusive people are going to get. Furthermore “blindly following” is an even worse statement. One would be blind NOT to see the advantages of bringing certain classes over others. I really don’t see how it wouldn’t benefit the game to balance out classes a bit more so people have more options.

So if everyone decided to go thief tomorrow then that means that thief must be nerfed so that there is balance? Just because something is meta does not mean that balancing should be done. Now if something is over the top (e.g. ice bow), that’s another story.

When I say blindly follow I mean people picking the meta builds without knowing why certain traits were chosen as well as weapons + utilities. They do not know how to adapt to any given scenario. It’s so bad in this game that Dulfy had to write a disclaimer for her raid guides in regards to the classes and builds used. People were actually using her guide to the tiniest detail and excluding those who did not follow it.

As I told the poster above, there’s a difference between optimal and viable. Just because there is an optimal option, doesn’t mean that there aren’t plenty of other viable options. A lot of classes already have plenty of viable options.

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Posted by: cranos.5913

cranos.5913

So if everyone decided to go thief tomorrow then that means that thief must be nerfed so that there is balance? Just because something is meta does not mean that balancing should be done. Now if something is over the top (e.g. ice bow), that’s another story.

When I say blindly follow I mean people picking the meta builds without knowing why certain traits were chosen as well as weapons + utilities. They do not know how to adapt to any given scenario. It’s so bad in this game that Dulfy had to write a disclaimer for her raid guides in regards to the classes and builds used. People were actually using her guide to the tiniest detail and excluding those who did not follow it.

As I told the poster above, there’s a difference between optimal and viable. Just because there is an optimal option, doesn’t mean that there aren’t plenty of other viable options. A lot of classes already have plenty of viable options.

TBH you could easily make a comparison between the burnzerker and the icebow. Both are so over the top that you can skip entire mechanics (and yes, I realise some of it is getting nerfed with alacrity). In a way you’re right tho, and while I would obviously love for my class to be in a meta group, I’d settle for being a viable alternative. The hate on DH is real tho, and is not unjustified.

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Posted by: PlayerX.5307

PlayerX.5307

I know how we can fix PvE issues.

Taunt.

It would fix 90% of their mechanic problems in raids/fractals. It would allow people to run tank builds, healing builds, and dps builds.

We get it, the removal of the holy trinity sounded cool. But it doesn’t work. Clearly. Please give us a taunt that every class could learn just for pve. It doesn’t have to be added in PvP.

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Posted by: Amaranthe.3578

Amaranthe.3578

I know how we can fix PvE issues.

Taunt.

It would fix 90% of their mechanic problems in raids/fractals. It would allow people to run tank builds, healing builds, and dps builds.

We get it, the removal of the holy trinity sounded cool. But it doesn’t work. Clearly. Please give us a taunt that every class could learn just for pve. It doesn’t have to be added in PvP.

they will never admit the total removal of the trinity was a dumb gimmicky idea
so i think we can forget that one

(edited by Amaranthe.3578)

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Posted by: Hyper Cutter.9376

Hyper Cutter.9376

They shouldn’t balance PvE based on what certain groups of players prefer to use including those that choose to blindly follow them.

Why not, that’s how they balance PVP (“what players prefer to use” is literally what a meta is)

you pvers have gotten everything you wanted out of balance for the last three years.

Not even remotely. There’s entire weapons, utility skill types, and trait lines that are basically never used in PVE, either because they’re balanced for “defend a tiny circle forever” gameplay or because they were so good at same that Anet gutted them (RIP turrets).

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Posted by: AsurasRCute.4136

AsurasRCute.4136

you pvers have gotten everything you wanted out of balance for the last three years.
it’s your turn to wait.

My P/P Thief main is scratching her floppy ears in confusion and asking, “Huh? When did that happen?”

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

They do have skill balance splitting tech for like 2 years now. Why the hell don’t they use it? I don’t even play PvP anymore. I want to raid but I can’t because my prof is a garbage!!!

this!!!!
i know that balancing pvp is hard we get it
but balancing pve is so kittening easy my labrador can do it

And how would you balance the classes if it’s so easy? Exactly what would you do?

Give classes unique party buffs so that even if it does a bit less damage you would rather bring for example a warr a thief and a herald(good $.#) instead of 3 heralds hurr rdurrrrr(bad .)
every mmo since the dawn of time does that to avoid class stacking

How’s that “balanced”?

every class will be wanted and stacking wont be optimal durrrrrr
is it that faking hard to comprehend?
it will solve the pve issue

It won’t. Of everything that those classes uniquely provide, people will determine which are the most optimal to have and then form a meta around that. Classes will still be “excluded”. There will still be an imbalance.

it will.
because it should create an environment where the optinal 10 man raid has 1 of each class in it
4 faks sake wow has done this for years

Guild Wars 2 already does this…..

and people still dont bring the “super group”….

You know why ?

Of course you don’t because your still trying to force classes into groups. The most rudimentary form of balance you can get.

There’s a max of 5 target per “boon/effect”. There’s a max of 10 people for raids….There’s 9 classes

Let me do some simple math for you.
You will always have a duplicate class….
You will never have a situation where in everyone benefits from “the unique bonus”.

Even if you exclude raids and limit yourself even further, down to parties. You can have a maximum of 5 players per party. With 9 unique traits in the game (1 per class) 4 classes will automatically be excluded.

QED your method of balancing is bad.

Next time you want to claim something is super easy, please you more than 5 seconds and actually analyze your thoughts.

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Posted by: Henry.5713

Henry.5713

Even if every class was (seriously) completely equal at taking every role possible then pugs would still find a reason or two to exclude someone based on their class.

Whether something works or not is completely based on your own opinion. The number of players who actually tried everything before passing final judgement is probably made up off 0,01% of the entire population.

This is one of the best class balances we have had in PvE in my entire time playing this game. Raids can be completed with any class running at least one (of usually two or even three different) builds.
You can do the entire thing in an hour without the current most wanted meta builds. We have seen guardian, mesmer, warrior, engineer, druid and tempest tanks. We have seen parties with up to six of each class or none of them. We seen healing druids, healing guardians, healing warriors, healing tempests.
What it comes down to is that some compositions are or just appear to be easier than others.

(edited by Henry.5713)

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Posted by: Henry.5713

Henry.5713

They do have skill balance splitting tech for like 2 years now. Why the hell don’t they use it? I don’t even play PvP anymore. I want to raid but I can’t because my prof is a garbage!!!

this!!!!
i know that balancing pvp is hard we get it
but balancing pve is so kittening easy my labrador can do it

And how would you balance the classes if it’s so easy? Exactly what would you do?

Give classes unique party buffs so that even if it does a bit less damage you would rather bring for example a warr a thief and a herald(good $.#) instead of 3 heralds hurr rdurrrrr(bad .)
every mmo since the dawn of time does that to avoid class stacking

How’s that “balanced”?

every class will be wanted and stacking wont be optimal durrrrrr
is it that faking hard to comprehend?
it will solve the pve issue

It won’t. Of everything that those classes uniquely provide, people will determine which are the most optimal to have and then form a meta around that. Classes will still be “excluded”. There will still be an imbalance.

it will.
because it should create an environment where the optinal 10 man raid has 1 of each class in it
4 faks sake wow has done this for years

One does not even have to play WoW to know that that is bullkitten.

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Posted by: SkyShroud.2865

SkyShroud.2865

to balance pve means to buff a class, to buff a class means to unbalance it in other aspects

theres always a class that is better than another class when come to certain things
however, if u refuse to accept that and insist to keep using that class for every single thing despite the very fact that it is easy to max another class, that is your downfall.

raid is only “hard” because anet intentionally force people to use the classes that are best at doing specific things, well, to satisfy the try hard group of players that don’t play hardcore games that have heavy death penalties. exactly because anet try to satisfy this group of wannabes, your favorite class will inevitably be left behind.

as for others, they simply adapt to anet’s changes and life goes on

Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International Guild
Henge of Denravi Server
www.gw2time.com

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Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

There’s entire weapons, utility skill types, and trait lines that are basically never used in PVE, either because they’re balanced for “defend a tiny circle forever” gameplay or because they were so good at same that Anet gutted them (RIP turrets).

I agree wholeheartedly.
PvP, PvE and WvW are completely different modes. What works nicely in a mode isn’t necessarily useful in another.
Trying to balance all the modes together just unbalances all of them further.
Trying to balance all the modes by balancing over a single one of them causes only further issues on the other two modes.
If they want to balance the game decently, it’s either a splitted balance or nothing.

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Posted by: Nemitri.8172

Nemitri.8172

Warriors bring dps, banners, and phalanx strength, keeping everyone with 25 stacks of might nearly 85% of the time.

Revenants bring dps, 50% boon duration to 5 players, and lots of boons to 5 players. They can also breakbars very well with staff #5.

Engies, necros are there because Anet had to shoehorn conditions in raids to make conditions mandatory, and proclaim they removed the zerker meta (hint, they haven’t as raids are just dps races…)

Druids can heal and bring unique dmg boosts, although tempest can heal just as well.

Tempests can heal and deal good dmg, especillay versus large targets + lots of utility overall.

Guardians can tank, but so can everyone else due to how aggro is determined by toughness. they can give boons, so so can everyone else.

Mesmers bring alacrity and quickess, altough alacrity is gonna get abit of anerf.

What do thieves bring besides dps? stealth? there’s no skipping here like with dungeons.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

The hate on DH is real tho, and is not unjustified.

Again, classes shouldn’t be balanced because some people find certain classes and/or class compositions more optimal than others. There will always be an optimal way to do something and it will always exclude some classes and/or builds. This doesn’t mean that those classes/builds are not viable.

I don’t think you stated otherwise in your post but I still want to stress that for everyone else. Way too many people think viable and optimal are the same thing.

As far as guardian/DH goes…

http://youtu.be/drS6JYuuKvY

(edited by Ayrilana.1396)

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Posted by: Mortifer.2946

Mortifer.2946

Warriors bring dps, banners, and phalanx strength, keeping everyone with 25 stacks of might nearly 85% of the time.

Revenants bring dps, 50% boon duration to 5 players, and lots of boons to 5 players. They can also breakbars very well with staff #5.

Engies, necros are there because Anet had to shoehorn conditions in raids to make conditions mandatory, and proclaim they removed the zerker meta (hint, they haven’t as raids are just dps races…)

Druids can heal and bring unique dmg boosts, although tempest can heal just as well.

Tempests can heal and deal good dmg, especillay versus large targets + lots of utility overall.

Guardians can tank, but so can everyone else due to how aggro is determined by toughness. they can give boons, so so can everyone else.

Mesmers bring alacrity and quickess, altough alacrity is gonna get abit of anerf.

What do thieves bring besides dps? stealth? there’s no skipping here like with dungeons.

This. And ArenaNet probably thinks this is okay. Especially the raid team who made their encounters with this logic. GG.

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Posted by: Orpheal.8263

Orpheal.8263

I can tell you only, what I would do …

1) I would completely redesign Raids, as long its possible, because what we got there so far are absolutely NO raids.. what we got there are just pathetic 10 man fractals that are essentially nothign else but a string of 3 boss fights ….
But nothing of this “wing” at all provides anythign at all what I would personally call a Raid.

2. I’d removed the Story Parts out of the content, no one should be ever forced to play raids to get to know something about the games story and lore …

3. Id rebalance all classes so, that each class provides something unique for the group, that you actually want to have a balanced group of each class 1 at least in your group, to have the most best possible group synergy.
The problem with Naets “Raid Design” lol is first and foremost, that the content is designed around laughable 10 man groups…
We wouldnt have at all this problem with certain classes finding no spots for raid,s if the Raid would be designed around having say for example 15 man groups with some kind of leeway to have for some classes maybe two or more, while absiolutely having enough space to take from everything at least one wioth you, so that no class gets discriminated here, because of having no place in the group due to beign too useless, because of certain classes beign too overpowered right now and therefore too mandatory compared to other classes that dont provide such good group synergy…

I would solve this with special CLASS BASED MASTERIES for Raids that give all classes unique raid masteries which can be useful to have for the group to maximize group synergy, loot quality and especialyl loot quantity for the group so thast you will want to take of every class someone with you, if you want to maximize for everyone the quantity of loot that everyone will get at the end or while raiding together

by remaking the concept of raiding, my first step it would be

1) remake Spirit Vale into a complete new explorable normal PvE Map and rework the Spirit Vale Achievements for that map with the current 3 bosses being reworked into World Bosses….

2) Add the Underworld as a new real Raid Map which is a raid map of the size of like all 3 desert borderlandmaps together where 15-20 People can raid together, where this giant map is divided into 4 explorable wings in which dynamic raid events together with solveable daily raid missions you can do there.
The dynamic raid events in those wings are just there to ensure, that every raid you make daily feels a bit different each time,

The Underworld would be just the beginning.
When you cleared all of the Underworld, a Raid group can gain then access to the next Raid Area, which is then the Abyss, which is a 100 floor Raid that has on every single floor a Raid Boss, that you need to beat as Raid Group to gain access to the next floor.
So some kind of Reverse Fractal System blended together with raids kind of “Sword Art Online Style” , where when you get defeated as group, need to start over again from floor 1 (no death game, but you have to restart …) but rewards and loot becomre more and more valuable, so deeper you come and so more you progress in the Abyss.

Not only would this add some significant needed nostalgia back to Guild Wars 2, it would be definetely much better of a game design concept thats WORTHY to be called a Raid … what we have right now are just cheap wannabe raids that are no raids at all,m and that even so bad designed, that we get class discrimination toe to garbage class balancement that absolutely doesn’t take all classes at the moment into consideration to offer good enough gameplay mechancis for all of them, so that all classes are seen as equally worthy to be taken at all into a group, because certain classes right now have so much extreme power creep, that they are way too much mandatory for overall raid success, like Mesmers as Chronomancers, like Revenents as Heralds, like Rangers as Druids, like Engineers as Condition/Support Bots and like Elementalists/Tempests as DPS machines due to the current raids being nothing else but braindead DPS races due to facing practically just certain death, if you cant beat the bosses within a certain time limit due to them then become alot harder to beat to the point, that they easily can one hit kill you.. and one hit kill mechanics have always been one of ANets lamest most boring game mechanics they constantly use just to make their borign boss fights somehow “challenging”

Its so lame already that you start on believing, that Anet is running out of ideas, that they can’t do anything else but one hit kill mechanics for challenges for their boss designs rolleyes Was already so for their dungeons, was so for their fractals and is so again now in their “raids” .. cough

Just to think on it, that they hired extra for raids some new developers and come up then with something like this, is kind of shameful really, when they then deliver then exactly practically the same gameplay experience that we have had for years already with dungerons and fractals, just now playable with 10 people instead of 5 /facepalm

So personally spoken, for me are these “raids” the absolute biggest disappointment of the whole HoT Expansion.. they miserably failed to deliever somethign thats worth calling a Raid in my eyes in every aspect of it.

I seriously hope, that the next following wings won’t continue with the exact same bad raid design that we get now with every single raid wing exactly the same crap of boring multiple boss strings only, but actually something, that is worth calling it a raid, that feels actually like a real raid.

just my 2 cents

And thankfully ANet nerfes in the next patch Chronomancers and buffs Thief DPS, but I think they should have nerfed also significantly more the Revenant/Herald, ther nerfs are too weak, its still after these changes a powercreep class that screams out powercreep just for better HoT sale’s sake, especially with total overpowered skilsl like Coalescence of Ruin … the nerf from 2s to 4s recharge time is an absolute JOKE.

They should increase this skil lfrom 2 to at least 6, if not even 8 seconds of recharge time, then it would be balanced for the kind of hefty damage it can deal and maybe even also reduce its range..i know the hammer is a long range weapon for the class, but a skill like CoR shouldnt have such super long range, while dealing on its way to the target also multiple hits that become each time more powerful and can hit multiple targets per hit also …

The Revenant/Herald is for me personally a very bad class design, its way too much of an allrounder, that steals too much concepts and gameplay roles from other classes while trying hard to come over as like the “supernatural wannabe dark soldier” that is a kind of jack of all trades that can switch to other class mechanics on the fly whenever you need it or want it in general…

When changing over to Ventari, the class feels like beign a wannabe Druid/Healer
When changing over to Shiro, the class feels like being a mix of a superior Thief/Warrior/Assassin
When changing over to Mallyx, the class feels like a mix of being wannabe Mesmer/Necromancer
When changing over to the dwarf, the class feels like beign a wannabe Guardian
When beign Herald it feels especially liek beign a superior Guardian Clone..

The whole class design around it just feels like, as if all devs responsible for that crap just sitted together in a round and one started the discussion with the question:

How would a class in GW2 be like, if it basically can combine all aspects of all other classes into itself and exchange those aspects out at will??

How would you you call it?

The Revenant..

Whoah ,bingo!!!, we’ve got a winner

clap clap clap clap* (furious echoes of lots of clappings)

Just as Herald the whole thing first provides something unique and own, that makes it so extremely mandatory for groups in alot of cases in the HoT content, due to its way too overpowered Boon Expander Feature of whopping 50%, which is the sole only reason, for why so many people want to have multiple heralds in raids, because they are alone due to this feature too mandatory to have.

Thats something that should get nerfed in my opinion down instantly from 50 to 25% and the effect shouldnt stack or synergize together with other heralds, so that actually taking more than 1 herald into the group doesn’t make it much better for the group of getting much longer and more widely spreaded boon expansions as that would create then also space for other classes to find their place for raids, once anet reduces the mandatory stuff from the power creep classes and rebalances then the content so, that the content is still doable with the changed game balance due to reducing the overall max dps most like from the current raid meta, by also removing the silly timers from battles, so that there doesn’t even exist something such as ret peep as these DPS races, that just only hurt games like GW2, than they are good at all for the social aspects of MMORPGs in game content as like raids, which should be played together in big player groups in first line, to have fun together and not to race a god stupid clock for some battles just to make some elitists happy that they can stroke their egos for having done something under a specific time, that forces everyone in this game mode to minmax everything and never make mistakes ect..

such gameplay design just encourages people tho show off their real bad egos and to discriminate others. thats not, how raids should work and be designed.

Raids should be fun and challenging diverse content, that brings people together to play together to have play sessions between like 1+ hours (just as long as you want to raid together) in a place, that can be seen as rewarding endgame content, where you want to hang out later alot to progress quickly with your characters and get the stuff together that you need to fullfill your goals in the game, be it materials for legendaries, be it gold or other materiasls needed to make rare skins, be it directly gained gems to get something out of the gemstore or be it somethign unique and rewardign, as liek legendary armors and other stuff you can only earn in them and nowhere else in the game.

however, what we got so far is just the very first raid content.. who knows what we will get more in the future..I just hope only that the quality of future raid content will become significantly better.. some well placed nostalgy surely would help here alot by now hint

Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside

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Posted by: BloodyNine.7504

BloodyNine.7504

1) remake Spirit Vale into a complete new explorable normal PvE Map and rework the Spirit Vale Achievements for that map with the current 3 bosses being reworked into World Bosses….

2) Add the Underworld as a new real Raid Map which is a raid map of the size of like all 3 desert borderlandmaps together where 15-20 People can raid together, where this giant map is divided into 4 explorable wings in which dynamic raid events together with solveable daily raid missions you can do there.
The dynamic raid events in those wings are just there to ensure, that every raid you make daily feels a bit different each time,

The Underworld would be just the beginning.
When you cleared all of the Underworld, a Raid group can gain then access to the next Raid Area, which is then the Abyss, which is a 100 floor Raid that has on every single floor a Raid Boss, that you need to beat as Raid Group to gain access to the next floor.
So some kind of Reverse Fractal System blended together with raids kind of “Sword Art Online Style” , where when you get defeated as group, need to start over again from floor 1 (no death game, but you have to restart …) but rewards and loot becomre more and more valuable, so deeper you come and so more you progress in the Abyss.

So make the current raid world bosses?

Then create a new raid that appears to be larger than the entire expansion that was just released.

Then another raid wing that is bigger than all the fractals put together! Oh and sounds vaguely like a popular anime(it’s exactly like a popular anime)

You think the dev’s could get this all done by the 26th?

I mean, I am all for balance, but what you just suggested is an entirely new game.

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Posted by: Orpheal.8263

Orpheal.8263

lol, who here has ever said, that this should be all done by the 26th? How the hell do you come onto that now, that all of what Ive written here shoudl be something, that needs to be done until this date?

I know too, that ANet wants to release on the near future the next raid wing already…

Also this proposal isn#t just based only on a popular anime, because of it being popular..
it isn#t anythign at all like trying to invent the cycle new here, when this gameplay design already exists in this game under the fractals of the mist.
Merging both mwechaniucs would be for me personally just the most logical next step to do to improve the raid system to proviade actually real raids to the game, that are designed and made to be played with larger groups than just 10 play<ers, which is the reason why we have at all this kind of class discrimination problem right now, because the group size is just way too small to prevent this problem…

With raid content designed around group sizes around 15-20 people we wouldnt have that problem at all and concquering a large dungeon crawler over 100 stocks into the depths of tyria after having mastered the underword first as some kind of “test” if you are worthy for that next stage of raiding is actually, what I do envision as endgame content for GW2 thats worthy to be called a Raid System and not the wannabe raid stuff that we have currently, which is nothing else but 3 boss string fractals, which are everytiome you do them 100% exactly the same!! BORING

Just to think about it, that fopr somethign like that has been extra hired some new developer to work on this … I don’t know, must have been for sure someone, who hasn’t really much experience with raid designs I think or someone who didn’t knew at all, what kind of target group he/she’s designing the raids for, when he/she then makes practically exactly a copy of an already existing system of the game and places then just only a few bosses into it calling the result at the end then a “raid”…just laughable, when in fact it feels and looks like playing exactly only a small dungeon path with more people than 5 and having therefore on your road naturally significantly stronger bosses to beat, just with the difference, that you have each time there an annoying timeline in your back that makes out of each battle just only silly dps races full with lots of instant kill mechanics that you need to know and avoid always at the right moments, so that you aren’t for your group a burden and for your group to have ultimately a chance to win that constant dps race naturally in the end….

I personally just expect more from raids, than THIS.

Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside

(edited by Orpheal.8263)

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Posted by: BloodyNine.7504

BloodyNine.7504

My comment about it being done by the 26th was sarcasm meant to point out that the scope or your proposal is WAY too grand. While some of it sounds like a good idea if executed properly. The resources required to do what you are asking would very likely not be feasible, probable, or profitable. Which is why the scope is far too wide.

I don’t like the fact that my guardian is mostly left behind for raids. But the nice thing about Ascended gear, it is not soulbound. So I took all my gear from my Guardian, put it on a P/S warrior and I have not had any issues.

Back to what the post is originally about. I think one of the main reasons this so called pve imbalance is even a thing is the lack of a trinity system in this game. I am not saying if that is good or bad, because my feelings are mixed. But I see it as contributing.

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Posted by: Frediosz.2718

Frediosz.2718

fine its kk that u balance pvp but why oh my are u not even addressing the fact that nobody wants thieves,guards,non support druid rangers,non condi necros,non condi engis and many many others in raids or in any hard pve content?
why are u not even addressing the fact that pve is nasty dps-race?

Thiefs are too soft and require much dodging which naabs simly can’t do. (plus thiefs are butts on anything else then s/d or d/d)

And what the F is a NON-SUPPORT DRUID RANGER ? I think i saw few fighting veterans for 30 minutes doing 50-100 dmg to them with their stick… Or do you mean a bowbear ? Because don’t tell me that you know how to fight with a sword+dagger/trumpet/GS on a ranger – i won’t believe you due to 99% of rangers sucking butts and using bows.

About that whole AGAIN trinity thing… git gud skrubs.
There is already a trinity in game – good players, players that learn from them and noobs that whine on the forums about lack of trinity, about not being taken on raids, about game being too hard and the list goes on.

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Posted by: Mortifer.2946

Mortifer.2946

I completely agree with the guy with a long post.

Revenant is a piece of….manure. I hate manure.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

I completely agree with the guy with a long post.

Revenant is a piece of….manure. I hate manure.

Nice reference.

As far as Rev goes, it takes some time to learn it. Even then, it may not be something someone enjoys. I’ve played engineer and I don’t really enjoy it all that much.

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Posted by: Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

Anyone that thinks PVE balance over 9 classes with hundreds of different skills is achievable, especially when those same skills and classes are used in PVE and WvW, has clearly not enough experience playing MMO’s.

Therefore, Anet doesn’t specifically balance for PVE because it’s not possible with how the game is designed. Easy.

(edited by Obtena.7952)

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

Anyone that thinks PVE balance over 9 classes with hundreds of different skills is achievable, especially when those same skills and classes are used in PVE and WvW, has clearly not enough experience playing MMO’s.

Therefore, Anet doesn’t specifically balance for PVE because it’s not possible with how the game is designed. Easy.

Guild Wars 1 says hello.

It’s living proof that balance can be split across skills and be done well. It was working just fine for GW2 until for some reason they decided to tear down that barrier. Probably thought it would harm some small demographic somewhere.

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Posted by: Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

It didn’t work for GW2 ever and I can’t challenge you on GW1 other than to say I’m doubtful it was as done as well as you imply. Even if it was, it’s an exception and it wasn’t really an MMO in the strictest terms anyways.

Regardless, that challenge is still there in GW2 and just because something balanced existed in GW1 doesn’t make it easy to do in GW2. Most MMO’s miss that mark by quite a bit, so much so that I hardly ever see devs speak of changing things to ‘balance’ across professions. Just doesn’t happen.

(edited by Obtena.7952)

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

Anyone that thinks PVE balance over 9 classes with hundreds of different skills is achievable, especially when those same skills and classes are used in PVE and WvW, has clearly not enough experience playing MMO’s.

Therefore, Anet doesn’t specifically balance for PVE because it’s not possible with how the game is designed. Easy.

Guild Wars 1 says hello.

It’s living proof that balance can be split across skills and be done well. It was working just fine for GW2 until for some reason they decided to tear down that barrier. Probably thought it would harm some small demographic somewhere.

GW2 is not as simplistic as GW1.

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Posted by: Tman.6349

Tman.6349

Anyone that thinks PVE balance over 9 classes with hundreds of different skills is achievable, especially when those same skills and classes are used in PVE and WvW, has clearly not enough experience playing MMO’s.

Therefore, Anet doesn’t specifically balance for PVE because it’s not possible with how the game is designed. Easy.

Guild Wars 1 says hello.

It’s living proof that balance can be split across skills and be done well. It was working just fine for GW2 until for some reason they decided to tear down that barrier. Probably thought it would harm some small demographic somewhere.

GW2 is not as simplistic as GW1.

What is even the ‘PvE balance problem’ that this thread is referring to? The only thing I can gather so far is some PHIW, utopian ideology. Is there anything of substance to add at all?

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

Anyone that thinks PVE balance over 9 classes with hundreds of different skills is achievable, especially when those same skills and classes are used in PVE and WvW, has clearly not enough experience playing MMO’s.

Therefore, Anet doesn’t specifically balance for PVE because it’s not possible with how the game is designed. Easy.

Guild Wars 1 says hello.

It’s living proof that balance can be split across skills and be done well. It was working just fine for GW2 until for some reason they decided to tear down that barrier. Probably thought it would harm some small demographic somewhere.

GW2 is not as simplistic as GW1.

Agree to disagree. Some of the reasons GW1 could get away with it more, is due to the reliance of AI hero’s and more Instanced content.

That doesn’t mean it’s not possible in GW2, as they had been doing PvP/PvE splits for some time prior to HoT.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

Anyone that thinks PVE balance over 9 classes with hundreds of different skills is achievable, especially when those same skills and classes are used in PVE and WvW, has clearly not enough experience playing MMO’s.

Therefore, Anet doesn’t specifically balance for PVE because it’s not possible with how the game is designed. Easy.

Guild Wars 1 says hello.

It’s living proof that balance can be split across skills and be done well. It was working just fine for GW2 until for some reason they decided to tear down that barrier. Probably thought it would harm some small demographic somewhere.

GW2 is not as simplistic as GW1.

Agree to disagree. Some of the reasons GW1 could get away with it more, is due to the reliance of AI hero’s and more Instanced content.

That doesn’t mean it’s not possible in GW2, as they had been doing PvP/PvE splits for some time prior to HoT.

Yeah. Probably not worth getting into it.

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Posted by: Sober Oni.8290

Sober Oni.8290

Anyone that thinks PVE balance over 9 classes with hundreds of different skills is achievable, especially when those same skills and classes are used in PVE and WvW, has clearly not enough experience playing MMO’s.

FFXIV says hello.

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Posted by: Conner.5803

Conner.5803

They shouldn’t balance PvE based on what certain groups of players prefer to use including those that choose to blindly follow them.

However, PvE should never be balanced around what happens in PvP and vice versa.
But what can we do when the devs are too lazy and stubborn to admit this…