Guild Wars 2

Are melee bosses supposed to be a test of juggling cripple kiting with random people in your group?

I understand the desire of anet not wanting to have long dungeon finder ques and all, but I just don’t see why anyone would think that playing aggro ping pong is a good thing. As a warrior, I think shield specs need to be substantially more sturdy in pve.

This is the final result of all the people saying “bring the player not the class”.

Enjoy it! It’s here to stay!

in this game you dont “melee” the boss.
unless you can get in and out quickly/unaffected. (aegis, teleport…)

its ok.

Ang.2157:

This is the final result of all the people saying “bring the player not the class”.

Enjoy it! It’s here to stay!

I would much rather see a system in which every class is able to spec over to all 3 roles, whenever the need fits. I really don’t want to knock them for trying something different, but I’m really feeling that leveling a melee to 80 was a waste of time for pve.

I really don’t think they have pulled off this ‘trinity removal’ with any success when it comes to dungeons. They have definitely got it right in SPVP, which is cool. They haven’t even achieved “bring the player” because frankly you’d have absolutely zip chance of completing a lot of the explorables with 5 thiefs or 5 DPS warriors.

At the moment explorable dungeons are the following:
- Not challenging
- Die/rally zerg fests
- Die/run back from waypoint constant
- A chaotic mess of everyone running around and the boss going nuts.

None of this is tactical what so ever. I never thought i’d say it but frankly I wish there was a trinity system in dungeons added.

How much of this could be alleviated with a better aggro mechanic?

Phy.2913:

How much of this could be alleviated with a better aggro mechanic?

That’s what is required really.. but then you’re entering the realms of a trinity. It would mean bringing someone who could soak up hits.

So what we get instead is “Everyone takes a hit and uses their heal spell” then it moves onto “Hope you don’t take another hit or two during the cooldown otherwise you’ll be shouting for a res or respawning at the waypoint”

It’s pretty dull and lacks any real coordination or punishment for dying sadly.

Hostar.1390:

They haven’t even achieved “bring the player” because frankly you’d have absolutely zip chance of completing a lot of the explorables with 5 thiefs or 5 DPS warriors.

You’re missing the point and I think a lot of people are thinking the same thing as you. You can bring any 5 players, but those players are not supposed to all have the same types of builds. ArenaNet intends for people to switch builds around so that there are people that can perform a control build, people that can be a supporter, and people that can be a damage dealer. The idea is that any classes can perform those roles in a dungeon, getting rid of the need to wait for one specific class to join you. They haven’t gotten rid of the need for roles and they certainly don’t expect people to all be in dps specs. People still need to work together and form strategies and while everyone can do more than just dps (everyone can also heal, support, control), they do expect that you’ll have a fairly well rounded group role-wise. So yes bring the player not the class, but said players need to adapt.

One thing the GW franchise is known for or the stated goal is to bring more ‘intelligent’ AI to the mix. Having the AI attack the most sturdy and hardest to kill in the group is actually pretty dumb. In PvP do you attack the guy who is hardest to kill or the easiest to kill first? As such hate and agro are completely different than games that have ‘stupid’ AI and you can trick into attacking you.

For this game if you want to keep agro you must work for it. CC is part of the tanks job, each class has skills that hold the monster things in place or keep them from moving ‘fast.’ On a sword warrior my burst skill immobilizes you for a while. In PvP that keeps you from running away, in PvE this keeps the monster thing from chasing my squishies. Hammers have knock down and knock back. Thieves have cripple.

But a better tactic really is ping pong agro. Thief takes agro until the thing gets in close or hurts the thief, then he stealth’s. Monster now targets the elly, then a guardian comes in to drag him away from the elly, and while the monster is attacking the guardian, the thief unloads on him. This really is an inelegant but also inteligant way to have agro. IMO it makes the hate system insanely stupid…’hey I can hit skill 2 and everything attacks me, YAY.’ Really?

Leiloni.7951:

Hostar.1390:

They haven’t even achieved “bring the player” because frankly you’d have absolutely zip chance of completing a lot of the explorables with 5 thiefs or 5 DPS warriors.

You’re missing the point and I think a lot of people are thinking the same thing as you. You can bring any 5 players, but those players are not supposed to all have the same types of builds. ArenaNet intends for people to switch builds around so that there are people that can perform a control build, people that can be a supporter, and people that can be a damage dealer. The idea is that any classes can perform those roles in a dungeon, getting rid of the need to wait for one specific class to join you. They haven’t gotten rid of the need for roles and they certainly don’t expect people to all be in dps specs. People still need to work together and form strategies and while everyone can do more than just dps (everyone can also heal, support, control), they do expect that you’ll have a fairly well rounded group role-wise. So yes bring the player not the class, but said players need to adapt.

But then how do you explain “Play however you want” and “Play in your own style not cookie cutter builds”?

Why not put back the trinity that worked fine?
I never had to wait for other players, only people that relied on the dungeon finder instead of their guild had to do that.

The Trinity was there for a reason. It wasn’t flawed because guess what? Everyone had a choice. If you didn’t want to wait then you rolled a Healer/Tank or when running as DPS you added them to get faster runs, everything was optional while having order, consistency and far more better and tactical than this zerg of rezzing and running from the waypoint.

It would have been better if they instead give the CHOICE for ALL classes to be able to do all 3 rolls, then we retain the goodness and order of the trinity while expanding on who can and can’t tank/heal/dps.

With that being said, GW2 is still very much shiny and new for me and I like the combat a lot so I haven’t found myself bored yet but I’m not sure how it will be when I hit level 80.

GrimShade.8091:

For this game if you want to keep agro you must work for it. CC is part of the tanks job, each class has skills that hold the monster things in place or keep them from moving ‘fast.’ On a sword warrior my burst skill immobilizes you for a while. In PvP that keeps you from running away, in PvE this keeps the monster thing from chasing my squishies. Hammers have knock down and knock back. Thieves have cripple.

But a better tactic really is ping pong agro. Thief takes agro until the thing gets in close or hurts the thief, then he stealth’s. Monster now targets the elly, then a guardian comes in to drag him away from the elly, and while the monster is attacking the guardian, the thief unloads on him. This really is an inelegant way to have agro. IMO it makes the hate system insanely stupid…’hey I can hit skill 2 and everything attacks me, YAY.’ Really?

That’s something I’m struggling to decide what I think of it. On the one hand, yes a good group can work together as you’ve described to keep the monster controlled. So it requires more coordination, tactics, and work than typical trinity setup games, which is a good thing. On the other hand, it can seem a bit unorganized and chaotic, which makes me go back to the idea of the trinity, but I don’t want the trinity back again. So I think they are going in the right direction with the lack of a trinity, there just seems to be something missing with the way people are currently doing things. I don’t know if we’re all just doing it wrong and ArenaNet has much better tactics in mind that we’ll all figure out soon enough. Or if the system really just is missing something to make it perfect. I guess I need more time doing dungeons to make an opinion, but those are my current thoughts.

GrimShade.8091:

But a better tactic really is ping pong agro. Thief takes agro until the thing gets in close or hurts the thief, then he stealth’s. Monster now targets the elly, then a guardian comes in to drag him away from the elly, and while the monster is attacking the guardian, the thief unloads on him. This really is an inelegant way to have agro. IMO it makes the hate system insanely stupid…’hey I can hit skill 2 and everything attacks me, YAY.’ Really?

That only works well if you are against one mob which is why the bosses are so much easier than the trash mobs in this game.

You can, in fact, play however you want, don’t however confuse that to mean you can play sub-optimally and have the same success as those who play smarter. You’re more than welcome to bring 5 dps to a dungeon, you would do better with someone speced for better healing or support though.

well, dynamic event boss obviously only require zergling as you dont even know what kind of player/build are tagging along.

for dongeon, i havent tried them yet, but i believe the greatest potential for pve is with those.

Personally think they need to add a trinity system for dungeons, one which turns on when you enter the dungeon. Someone who is support specced receives a big increase to healing, someone who is defense spec essentially is a threat magnet and target for monsters and someone who is DPS spec just does damage.

This way almost all classes could take on at least 2 of the above roles (in some classes they could do all 3, a Warrior for example could tank/support/dps) and it wouldn’t interfere with PvP balance.

It was a nice thought trying to remove the trinity but what happened instead is mechanics, difficulty and group coordination took a complete nosedive and a huge step backwards.

Ang.2157:

That only works well if you are against one mob which is why the bosses are so much easier than the trash mobs in this game.

I think that’s where other strategies just need to come into play. Someone needs to mark mobs so the entire group is focusing on one at a time so we can take them down faster. Then the other mobs need to be controlled in other ways – if there are a lot of melee, group can synchronize throwing down slows, stuns, immobilize, etc. If there are ranged then we need some blinds, or reflective shields, or other skills that deal with/get rid of projectiles. Anyone that has pets of some sort can send them in to temporarily take aggro. Any combo fields that can produce chill, blind, etc. are useful here. And of course anyone with group shielding or healing skills is quite useful to keep the group alive while we do all of that in case anyone takes a bigger hit.

But like I said in my previous post on aggro, while that works and does require more coordination than other games, which is a good thing, I still wonder if there isn’t a better way to do it. Either there are builds and strategies that work better that we the playerbase haven’t figured out yet, or maybe the game as a whole is just missing something to make this new trinity-less system work. I don’t know.

It can still work without a trinity, auto-attack damage of dungeon mobs just needs to be brought down to normal level with most of the emphasis being put on avoidable attacks.

Emphasizing interrupts or CC isn’t really viable due to the poor uptime. Even chain dropping black powders on my thief doesn’t make me safe, because it assumes everything is stacked inside it. It’ll usually only catch one or two enemies, with a third outside of it killing me.

Hostar.1390:

Personally think they need to add a trinity system for dungeons, one which turns on when you enter the dungeon. Someone who is support specced receives a big increase to healing, someone who is defense spec essentially is a threat magnet and target for monsters and someone who is DPS spec just does damage.

This way almost all classes could take on at least 2 of the above roles (in some classes they could do all 3, a Warrior for example could tank/support/dps) and it wouldn’t interfere with PvP balance.

It was a nice thought trying to remove the trinity but what happened instead is mechanics, difficulty and group coordination took a complete nosedive and a huge step backwards.

VERY INTERESTING.
the idea of choosing “role” when you enter a dungeon could lead to some pretty sweet design elements… roles choice options could be different depending on the dungeon.
and could be funky, like 1 player could have a tool to use cannons, 1 player could have a revive wand, 1 player could have a au aura of slowing aroud him…
and what else…
and, it will add some talk before the dungeon, to get to know the others.

The main problem with the logic behind a trinity is that the monsters want to attack the ‘tank.’ We as the players don’t attack the tank before the healer so why should they? Again take yourself to PvP and do you want to attack the tank? Who in their right mind would attack the guy who is not going to die?

GW1 broke the trinity to an extent in that I had no way to make monsters attack me. I actively had to body block and knock down things that wanted to run past me and attack my back line. The art of the Warrior was no longer stand in the middle, hit the hate skill and get healed by the monk that isn’t getting attacked. If I wanted to tank I had to set up a pull, body block against something and soak it up. On the flip side I could just accept that monsters weren’t going to attack me and they wanted to go straight for the monk. The art of the monk became kyting and staying alive while the art of the warrior was massively killing and chasing down things.

Here we removed the dedicated healer but if I want to hold agro I still have to work at it. I can and have held agro on my warrior in this game, I had to corner things, tie them up with immobile and knock down, shield stanceing things to keep that nasty thing in place while I don’t get hit and I heal. It really is a more advanced type of play than hit button 2 then 3 to keep hate up, then get healed. I only wish they had made body blocking more prevalent.

The real objection we have that is legitimate is the massive melee damage bosses do that make it virtually impossible to exists in melee range with them. The means I don’t bother to jump in on many Champs I sit back and plink with my rifle. I personally enjoy getting in close and having a skilled use of interrupts and blocks to stay in melee range. The long cool down on the skills means I don’t get to stay in melee, I have to roll out and use the rifle while my skills are on CD.

Luckily there is no Melee strcitly classes. Everyone has a ranged weapon. use it.

if the game can find a way to give players a specific role in the dungeon/events/wvw to help organize the chaos that clearly nobody seems able to control.
it would be awesome.
roles dont need to be “healer tank dps”, they could be event/ dungeon related purpose, things to do.

Failsociety.4569:

Luckily there is no Melee strcitly classes. Everyone has a ranged weapon. use it.

Guardian.

Ang.2157:

Failsociety.4569:

Luckily there is no Melee strcitly classes. Everyone has a ranged weapon. use it.

Guardian.

Mace

Aye, this is what I suggested long ago. It doesn’t have to be a trinity but you still need some form of roles assigned by the system. If someone from my guild tries to come as a full support elementalist, we laugh and tell him to respec.

For God’s sake, please stop asking for core mechanics to change. The no trinity thing is here to stay.

That being said, what they do have to do is to fine tune the fights to better accommodate the reality of this game. The word “chaotic” will always be somewhat of a constant here, although organized groups can reduce it considerably.

deriver.5381:

For God’s sake, please stop asking for core mechanics to change. The no trinity thing is here to stay.

That being said, what they do have to do is to fine tune the fights to better accommodate the reality of this game. The word “chaotic” will always be somewhat of a constant here, although organized groups can reduce it considerably.

The no trinity experiment was a failure.
They can still fix it and add some real endgame raids.

by giving different players “things to do” or special buff can lead to a mor organized dungeon.
like i said; 1 player can be given a special too to use cannons,
1 player could have an aura that slow movement of ennemis around him.
1 player could have a pack of mini bombs that he need to drop into the
golem boss once he pass a certain stage of health, otherwise he regen.

Ang.2157:

deriver.5381:

For God’s sake, please stop asking for core mechanics to change. The no trinity thing is here to stay.

That being said, what they do have to do is to fine tune the fights to better accommodate the reality of this game. The word “chaotic” will always be somewhat of a constant here, although organized groups can reduce it considerably.

The no trinity experiment was a failure.
They can still fix it and add some real endgame raids.

Nope, the player base has failed because it cannot grasp the fact that you cannot have one person for some reason, able to hold the Enemies attention, while you stand around smashing your rotation. Happy to say, it’s not going to happen, and really, there is no need. If you feel the need for the HT, I can list off a good 30+ MMOs that have such a thing.

EDIT: Raids would be awesome, they could totally make raids out doors with huge Enemies and lots of peopl….. Oh wait..

not holy kitten trinity.
but roles?

Failsociety.4569:

Ang.2157:

deriver.5381:

For God’s sake, please stop asking for core mechanics to change. The no trinity thing is here to stay.

That being said, what they do have to do is to fine tune the fights to better accommodate the reality of this game. The word “chaotic” will always be somewhat of a constant here, although organized groups can reduce it considerably.

The no trinity experiment was a failure.
They can still fix it and add some real endgame raids.

Nope, the player base has failed because it cannot grasp the fact that you cannot have one person for some reason, able to hold the Enemies attention, while you stand around smashing your rotation. Happy to say, it’s not going to happen, and really, there is no need. If you feel the need for the HT, I can list off a good 30+ MMOs that have such a thing.

And those 30+ MMOs have it just for lulz? Maybe they have it because it actually works!
The trinity haters are starting to feel like hipsters who don’t care that their new system is flawed as long as it is different from other MMOs.

Dual-class was the ultimate fix to the holy trinity in Guild Wars 1. Even a necromancer or a elementalist could heal if they wanted to. What truely happened is that things were casualized so ArenaNet could step on and shove aside their old fanbase to move onto a bigger one by ‘revolutionizing’ ( i.e. making it more like a generic mmo ) the genre.

As I said, my gripes weren’t surrounding how to utilize the system, they’re based on you don’t actually have to bother.

Whether you choose to cleverly organize your group and ‘attract’ mobs attention etc makes no difference, people in your group are gonna die and you’re gonna be reviving regardless. With the right amount of perseverance, you’re gonna win too. Most MMOs employ a learning curve. Time to learn your class, time to learn the encounters, the thrill of executing tactics perfectly. None of those exist here.

Ang.2157:

Failsociety.4569:

Ang.2157:

deriver.5381:

For God’s sake, please stop asking for core mechanics to change. The no trinity thing is here to stay.

That being said, what they do have to do is to fine tune the fights to better accommodate the reality of this game. The word “chaotic” will always be somewhat of a constant here, although organized groups can reduce it considerably.

The no trinity experiment was a failure.
They can still fix it and add some real endgame raids.

Nope, the player base has failed because it cannot grasp the fact that you cannot have one person for some reason, able to hold the Enemies attention, while you stand around smashing your rotation. Happy to say, it’s not going to happen, and really, there is no need. If you feel the need for the HT, I can list off a good 30+ MMOs that have such a thing.

And those 30+ MMOs have it just for lulz? Maybe they have it because it actually works!
The trinity haters are starting to feel like hipsters who don’t care that their new system is flawed as long as it is different from other MMOs.

I don’t hate the Trinity, it just has no place here. You and a few vocal others can’t seem to get that out of your skulls. Luckily however, ArenaNet will NOT change this, and I can promise that. So either this is a huge deal breaker for you, and you can head back to whatever Holy Trinity Game you came from, or you can learn to adapt and realize even without the Holy Trinity, good players manage quite well.

MMO’s use the trinity because it’s easy to design around.

Phy.2913:

MMO’s use the trinity because it’s easy to design around.

Indeed and thus the result of the encounters are often pretty good.

Failsociety.4569:

Ang.2157:

deriver.5381:

For God’s sake, please stop asking for core mechanics to change. The no trinity thing is here to stay.

That being said, what they do have to do is to fine tune the fights to better accommodate the reality of this game. The word “chaotic” will always be somewhat of a constant here, although organized groups can reduce it considerably.

The no trinity experiment was a failure.
They can still fix it and add some real endgame raids.

Nope, the player base has failed because it cannot grasp the fact that you cannot have one person for some reason, able to hold the Enemies attention, while you stand around smashing your rotation. Happy to say, it’s not going to happen, and really, there is no need. If you feel the need for the HT, I can list off a good 30+ MMOs that have such a thing.

EDIT: Raids would be awesome, they could totally make raids out doors with huge Enemies and lots of peopl….. Oh wait..

Tbh so far ive quite enjoyed the style of play. But then im a defense specced guardian so im pretty much a tank right now. I dont know, id have to see really organised play at 80 (Still waiting for my guildies to hit max lvl and do the explorables).

I gotta disagree with your statement regarding raids. The DE’s do not even come close to being challenging enough to be an alternative to a raid. If you get enough people together to fill a raid then your just gonna zerg that DE boss down with no problems whatsoever. I think this games would benefit greatly form some sort of large scale pve content thats actually hard.

An idea ive mentioned in other threads is to have 10 / 20 man versions of the current dungeons that reward the same tokens.

GrimShade.8091:

But a better tactic really is ping pong agro. Thief takes agro until the thing gets in close or hurts the thief, then he stealth’s. Monster now targets the elly, then a guardian comes in to drag him away from the elly, and while the monster is attacking the guardian, the thief unloads on him. This really is an inelegant but also inteligant way to have agro. IMO it makes the hate system insanely stupid…’hey I can hit skill 2 and everything attacks me, YAY.’ Really?

Yeah I never understood why certain games NPC AI would target the lowest damage dealing character just because they were in it’s face instead of the one that was dealing huge amounts of hurt, in any sane environment, it would go for that huge damage to negate it and get the total damage reduced, then the next etc.

The “trinity haters” are actually the ones enjoying the game the way it was made and is supposed to work.

The “trinity lovers” are the ones trying to change the world to fit their expectations.. Sorry it won’t happen. See you and your panda anytime…

snadge.2483:

GrimShade.8091:

But a better tactic really is ping pong agro. Thief takes agro until the thing gets in close or hurts the thief, then he stealth’s. Monster now targets the elly, then a guardian comes in to drag him away from the elly, and while the monster is attacking the guardian, the thief unloads on him. This really is an inelegant but also inteligant way to have agro. IMO it makes the hate system insanely stupid…’hey I can hit skill 2 and everything attacks me, YAY.’ Really?

Yeah I never understood why certain games NPC AI would target the lowest damage dealing character just because they were in it’s face instead of the one that was dealing huge amounts of hurt, in any sane environment, it would go for that huge damage to negate it and get the total damage reduced, then the next etc.

Fantasy RPG.
Do not looks for logic in it.

The important thing is if the game mechanics allow for a fun and challenging endgame with tactics and strategies.

At the moment it’s just a zerg rush and you better hope that you dodge at the right time since the mob is surrounded by particle effects and you cant see if you actually need to dodge or not.

The results cater to your understanding of that game and your desire to have an illogical fight handed to you. GW1 had the same issue of people who didn’t understand how to handle the system complaining. After a while everyone learned to play with the new rules or they left. That is what you are stuck doing now. Learn to play with these new rules or don’t play. This new agro/no agro system is a feature of the game and one that attracts me to play it.

The game does not need to assign roles to each player, we as the players need to do that. If we can’t then we have failed, or the PUG massively failed. For GW1 people generally got theirkitten handed to them on the first few runs through dungeons. After that they learned what they needed to bring. Many of the high level dungeons needed specific skills or you would get in 45 min of playing and hit a brick wall. After that people brought the skills and won.

So are you the type of player that will figure out how to play and win or will you leave because you want to play the other game just re-packaged with a different title?

deriver.5381:

The “trinity haters” are actually the ones enjoying the game the way it was made and is supposed to work.

The “trinity lovers” are the ones trying to change the world to fit their expectations.. Sorry it won’t happen. See you and your panda anytime…

HURR DURR!
If it’s different than WoW it must be great!

Seriously, if you can not handle a discussion about game mechanics and ways to improve them then please do not reply to the thread.

Ang.2157:

Phy.2913:

MMO’s use the trinity because it’s easy to design around.

Indeed and thus the result of the encounters are often pretty good.

Debatable. It also has a limiting factor, when you move away from the standard model encounters are either really easy or really difficult ie. GW2.

Ubung.7423:

Failsociety.4569:

Ang.2157:

deriver.5381:

For God’s sake, please stop asking for core mechanics to change. The no trinity thing is here to stay.

That being said, what they do have to do is to fine tune the fights to better accommodate the reality of this game. The word “chaotic” will always be somewhat of a constant here, although organized groups can reduce it considerably.

The no trinity experiment was a failure.
They can still fix it and add some real endgame raids.

Nope, the player base has failed because it cannot grasp the fact that you cannot have one person for some reason, able to hold the Enemies attention, while you stand around smashing your rotation. Happy to say, it’s not going to happen, and really, there is no need. If you feel the need for the HT, I can list off a good 30+ MMOs that have such a thing.

EDIT: Raids would be awesome, they could totally make raids out doors with huge Enemies and lots of peopl….. Oh wait..

Tbh so far ive quite enjoyed the style of play. But then im a defense specced guardian so im pretty much a tank right now. I dont know, id have to see really organised play at 80 (Still waiting for my guildies to hit max lvl and do the explorables).

I gotta disagree with your statement regarding raids. The DE’s do not even come close to being challenging enough to be an alternative to a raid. If you get enough people together to fill a raid then your just gonna zerg that DE boss down with no problems whatsoever. I think this games would benefit greatly form some sort of large scale pve content thats actually hard.

An idea ive mentioned in other threads is to have 10 / 20 man versions of the current dungeons that reward the same tokens.

I think the open world meta events are what Guild Wars 2 can offer to us that most closely resemble the raids we all know well enough.

But I agree they are not very well designed. Usually its all about zerging the boss. So, what people could have been doing all this time would be make posts with ideas for better designed meta events.

Instead of just spamming attacks on the dragon that barely moves and have maybe 2 phases, make those more dynamid events, with dragon flying, adds with numbers (not hp pools) related to the number of players nearby and a set time for them to be killed before the dragon returns… Things like that. I’m sure they have good people out there to design better scripted encounters.

Those would be good and VIABLE suggestions… Not this whole “give us the trinity back” crap… It won’t happen! Get used to it, for God’s sake!

Ubung.7423:

Failsociety.4569:

Ang.2157:

deriver.5381:

For God’s sake, please stop asking for core mechanics to change. The no trinity thing is here to stay.

That being said, what they do have to do is to fine tune the fights to better accommodate the reality of this game. The word “chaotic” will always be somewhat of a constant here, although organized groups can reduce it considerably.

The no trinity experiment was a failure.
They can still fix it and add some real endgame raids.

Nope, the player base has failed because it cannot grasp the fact that you cannot have one person for some reason, able to hold the Enemies attention, while you stand around smashing your rotation. Happy to say, it’s not going to happen, and really, there is no need. If you feel the need for the HT, I can list off a good 30+ MMOs that have such a thing.

EDIT: Raids would be awesome, they could totally make raids out doors with huge Enemies and lots of peopl….. Oh wait..

Tbh so far ive quite enjoyed the style of play. But then im a defense specced guardian so im pretty much a tank right now. I dont know, id have to see really organised play at 80 (Still waiting for my guildies to hit max lvl and do the explorables).

I gotta disagree with your statement regarding raids. The DE’s do not even come close to being challenging enough to be an alternative to a raid. If you get enough people together to fill a raid then your just gonna zerg that DE boss down with no problems whatsoever. I think this games would benefit greatly form some sort of large scale pve content thats actually hard.

An idea ive mentioned in other threads is to have 10 / 20 man versions of the current dungeons that reward the same tokens.

Problem with this is, you will have these same people come back and cry about needing a HT because the Boss just wiped 8 of 10 people with one move that you HAVE to dodge. If “we” had the HT, it would have only been the Tank and maybe a few Melee DPS!!

Edit: I am in 100% Agreement that Dynamic Events need to be more scripted toward other actions other then sitting around doing next to nothing. As the previous poster above me stated, there is plenty of good ways to make out door DE’s much better and I fully agree.

Phy.2913:

Ang.2157:

Phy.2913:

MMO’s use the trinity because it’s easy to design around.

Indeed and thus the result of the encounters are often pretty good.

Debatable. It also has a limiting factor, when you move away from the standard model encounters are either really easy or really difficult ie. GW2.

But is it difficult in a good way?
I have not played WoW in a long time but i remember that the Ulduar raid had some very challenging hardmode encounters that were so much more than just “boss is charging up for a big attack, time to dodge roll!”.

Hostar.1390:

Aye, this is what I suggested long ago. It doesn’t have to be a trinity but you still need some form of roles assigned by the system. If someone from my guild tries to come as a full support elementalist, we laugh and tell him to respec.

I think I’m missing your point. What does a support Ele have to do with the idea of people being assigned roles (and what is wrong with a support Ele)?

Ang.2157:

Phy.2913:

Ang.2157:

Phy.2913:

MMO’s use the trinity because it’s easy to design around.

Indeed and thus the result of the encounters are often pretty good.

Debatable. It also has a limiting factor, when you move away from the standard model encounters are either really easy or really difficult ie. GW2.

But is it difficult in a good way?
I have not played WoW in a long time but i remember that the Ulduar raid had some very challenging hardmode encounters that were so much more than just “boss is charging up for a big attack, time to dodge roll!”.

Some where difficult and fun, the ones that had random elements were not fun. It also took a long time for Blizzard to really fine tune challenge vs. fun, of course they did this with hardmodes, but that’s not the point. I think we just need to give Anet more time to really figure out how to make a boss encounter.

Bigperm.7586:

I would much rather see a system in which every class is able to spec over to all 3 roles, whenever the need fits. I really don’t want to knock them for trying something different, but I’m really feeling that leveling a melee to 80 was a waste of time for pve.

Rift tried this. Three of the four archetypes (warrior, rogue, cleric) had a method of tanking, and three of the four archetypes (rogue, cleric, mage) had a method of healing.

The end result is that every single player in the game could either tank or heal, if not both.

You’d still be waiting hours for the healer and tank because only a certain kind of player wants to play those roles.

Imo, Guild Wars 2 has the superior design. Let’s be patient and hope they also give us superior execution moving forward.

Ang.2157:

deriver.5381:

The “trinity haters” are actually the ones enjoying the game the way it was made and is supposed to work.

The “trinity lovers” are the ones trying to change the world to fit their expectations.. Sorry it won’t happen. See you and your panda anytime…

HURR DURR!
If it’s different than WoW it must be great!

Seriously, if you can not handle a discussion about game mechanics and ways to improve them then please do not reply to the thread.

I can throw back to you something greatly related to your response

If you can’t handle the game, don’t bother playing it.

And just to express a bizarre desire to work my patience up, I’ll point another flaw on your insanely flawed logic: the “no trinity” thing is part of what we can call core mechanics. They are not supposed to change.

“Oh oh, please A.Net scrap your levels and class system and give me a skill based game like Ultima Online. That is what I really want, and as I paid for your game, I demand you do what I ask”

Now go back to WoW.