Guild Wars 2

DevilLordLaser I understand your viewpoint and I agree with it in as much as GW2 cannot follow other MMOs formulas to create raid content. I do however think that GW2 lacks that epic feeling and raiding is ONE of the things that I believe would bring that feeling.

One thing id like you to elaborate on however is the reasons behind why you do not think that certain factors of the standard model of raiding wouldnt fit into the GW2 gameplay. What factors prevent certain mechanics working and why do they prevent it? Im genuinely interested as ive had very little experience of raiding outside of a couple of weeks playing private server WoW(not something im proud of btw!). Its all well and good saying “It wont work!” but you need to say what wont work and why wont it work!

As for ‘feeling obliged’ to complete the raid ‘for fear of letting people down’ or ‘making up numbers’ its a non-issue with a dungeon finder. Those that want to do the hardest content will be those that can get a full party together on a regular basis. Those doing lower difficulties can just PuG it using a dungeon party finder. Same as the fractals.

Let’s be talk the truth, people.

Fact: Nobody will play a zone if there is no better rewards than others.
You know it, I know it, Anet knows it.
Lost shores map was proof enough of this.
So raids would have to be bound to better gear or we all know for a fact the majority would not do them and cry to the end for better rewards than non-raids until Anet does it.
If Anet was to introduce better rewards to raids tho, people would cry to the end about Anet lying, omgwowclone, geartreadmill grindfest, yadda yadda doomsayer copypasta.

It takes a very naive person to claim this is not what would happen.
So since however Anet creates raids there will be major tears around here, I’d rather them not doing them until the majority of the drama kids permanently quit GW2 and the community is in a stable state.

Thereon.3495:

First off im glad you asked a question as opposed to stating outright that people wouldnt be interested. I am one of 3 million people so im not going to sit here and say that the community would embrace raids without vertical progression, im just here to state my opinions and the more important fact that raids do not HAVE to have vertical progression. ANET can make their raids the way that they want to.

Secondly its a downer im afraid- having items in game that are solely acquirable in certain areas, but DO NOT give stat gains over regular gear, doesnt mean youre forced to do these areas. No one is forced to do dungeons for the dungeon armours so why would they be forced to raid for the raid armour? Just create some unique raid armour sets with the same old boring stats as we currently have on named exotics and thats it!

I personally would love an RNG based set but thats my own personal preference based on the fact I actually like RNG in games! But thats besides the point im trying to make.

If Arenanet tried something like that I would not quit the game over it. I would choose not to partake, or just try it out a few times. The thing is there are plenty of people who do want vertical gear progression. I have not seen many threads recently but there used to be a bunch about how cosmetic only gear was not enough. The introduction of ascended gear brought back players that do want vertical progression.

But Velkin brings up a very good point with the following statement:

Velkyn.5168:

Even if I never set foot in a raid in GW2, I am very sure that their very existence would already affect me and my gaming experience in a negative way.

The entire feel of the game can change based on new content. People used to be all over the events throughout Orr, Malchor’s Leap, and Straights of Devastation. People were running all kinds of dungeons. With the new tier of gear in Fractals of the Mists people changed how they played the game and funneled into the new dungeon. Now people complain about waypoints for dungeons being contested.

Introducing raids would have to be done very carefully or you risk destroying what Arenanet has already said they want their endgame to be. Arenanet’s mistake with fractals is exactly what they are trying to fix with the patches in January and February.

As a PvP player you want to know what my biggest concern is? Playing PvP against PvE players who have a gear advantage over me in PvP. If Arenanet were to make the same mistakes with a raid as they have with the fractals dungeon then I would leave this game. I am all for equality. I am against being at a disadvantage in PvP because I choose to not partake in certain PvE aspects.

Blacklight.2871:

Warruz.8096:

Zeldain.5710:

Raids are not inherently tied to gear progression.

Raids are simply large-scale organized group/guild PvE content.

Something this game DESPERATELY needs.

This so much, I love raiding . While I have become more casual with it over time I still enjoy the group dynamics of working together which of course comes with a social aspect desperately needed.

The social aspects I recall from raiding involve standing around for half an hour while the stragglers file in, trying to pretend that I wouldn’t rather be doing anything else but sitting on my hands; shrieking at the newbs for making newb mistakes; then wheedling, complaining and ultimately crying, over loot drops.

There are times I would have given my left arm, just for the opportunity to beat my fellow raiders over the head with it until the bleating stopped. I never, ever, ever want to be forced to play with people I don’t want to play with, in order to access game content I’ve paid for. Never again.

Raiding belongs to WoW and they both belong in the gutter. Better Blizzard continues to copy ArenaNet’s ideas than the other way around.

Pretty much!

Raiding can stay in the gutter. In fact, I want the opposite — I wish dungeons and fractals scaled DOWN for less players. My girlfriend and I would have a much better time in fractals if we didn’t have to keep playing with people we don’t want to.

Frellin.6318:

But Velkin brings up a very good point with the following statement:

Velkyn.5168:

Even if I never set foot in a raid in GW2, I am very sure that their very existence would already affect me and my gaming experience in a negative way.

The entire feel of the game can change based on new content. People used to be all over the events throughout Orr, Malchor’s Leap, and Straights of Devastation. People were running all kinds of dungeons. With the new tier of gear in Fractals of the Mists people changed how they played the game and funneled into the new dungeon. Now people complain about waypoints for dungeons being contested.

Introducing raids would have to be done very carefully or you risk destroying what Arenanet has already said they want their endgame to be. Arenanet’s mistake with fractals is exactly what they are trying to fix with the patches in January and February.

As a PvP player you want to know what my biggest concern is? Playing PvP against PvE players who have a gear advantage over me in PvP. If Arenanet were to make the same mistakes with a raid as they have with the fractals dungeon then I would leave this game. I am all for equality. I am against being at a disadvantage in PvP because I choose to not partake in certain PvE aspects.

I think this too, even if WvW is for the major part a zergfest(for now), all players have the same right to have the same equipment and bonuses, and not being disvantaged because they are WvW players only.

Errant Venture.9371:

IceCold.5172:

TBH GW2 is lack some big dynamic type PVE content. I would like to see some sort of raid type thing in game. Dont have to be dungeon type raid. Just something you can do as a guild working in a group.

I dont even mention wow clone. Not interested. Raids are good for teamwork and guild work.

I feel like all the people in this thread have never done one of the metaevent chains in Orr. These things REQUIRE 20+ people to get done, have multiple stages, and massive endbosses.

Stop complaining b/c it’s not in an instance and there aren’t lockout timers. If you want to raid go to a game built around raiding. If you want to find raid-like elements in this game, they’re THERE!

I have done Orr temples. To me a major difference is the scope and simplicity. If you want to beat them easy, they’re zergable (cept Balthazar, which I’ve only won because it bugged but seems not exactly zergable). Just like with Tequatl and the other dragons, if you have enough people, it’s too easy to be fun because they don’t scale.

mulch.2586:

I have done Orr temples. To me a major difference is the scope and simplicity. If you want to beat them easy, they’re zergable (cept Balthazar, which I’ve only won because it bugged but seems not exactly zergable). Just like with Tequatl and the other dragons, if you have enough people, it’s too easy to be fun because they don’t scale.

So the real solution is not about raids, but with more scalable world events.
Now it can be difficult, but i can say that devs can counter high numbers, only with high numbers. MORE ADDS and stronger boss! just like the LOST SHORE event final boss!

Red Falcon.8257:

Let’s be talk the truth, people.

Fact: Nobody will play a zone if there is no better rewards than others.
You know it, I know it, Anet knows it.
Lost shores map was proof enough of this.
So raids would have to be bound to better gear or we all know for a fact the majority would not do them and cry to the end for better rewards than non-raids until Anet does it.
If Anet was to introduce better rewards to raids tho, people would cry to the end about Anet lying, omgwowclone, geartreadmill grindfest, yadda yadda doomsayer copypasta.

It takes a very naive person to claim this is not what would happen.
So since however Anet creates raids there will be major tears around here, I’d rather them not doing them until the majority of the drama kids permanently quit GW2 and the community is in a stable state.

Raiding doesn’t have to be linked to a treadmill. Pretty armor would be more than enough and if you don’t want to raid, don’t.

No one is complaining about the legendary treadmill, it is completely optional. Since we don’t have GvG, and WvW is limited, what is the point of these massive guilds?

GW2 is like XBL, there is thousands of players online, but you can only play with a handful of people at once… I am almost positive GW2 was designed with consoles in mind.

Ganzo.5079:

mulch.2586:

I have done Orr temples. To me a major difference is the scope and simplicity. If you want to beat them easy, they’re zergable (cept Balthazar, which I’ve only won because it bugged but seems not exactly zergable). Just like with Tequatl and the other dragons, if you have enough people, it’s too easy to be fun because they don’t scale.

So the real solution is not about raids, but with more scalable world events.
Now it can be difficult, but i can say that devs can counter high numbers, only with high numbers. MORE ADDS and stronger boss! just like the LOST SHORE event final boss!

scalability is only part of it. No one wants difficulty in the sense of just slap more health and do more damage, that is not fun. You want mechanics that make it difficult, what if at so many people jormag no longer allows you to huddle together to take damage. Thats the problem with world events like dragons only so much can be done because there is no limit on the amount of people. Only by limiting that does the difficulty go up enough to be considered a challenge.

Really the heart of this argument isnt about raids its about having challenging content that a set group of people can embark on that actually causes you to work together and progress just In a larger group which allows for more mechanics in a fight not just one or two.

I have and I don’t find most of the points valid to be honest. People pressured to do raids? Why? I really don’t get that, especially if we take the gear treadmill out of the equation. I used to be pretty ‘hardcore’ in the sense that I raided a lot, not at a high level, but now I am not and I don’t see the above happening.

Also, yes WoW revolves around raiding with the ‘holy trinity’ and yes I too think that it would be hard to create content that is interesting and difficult enough to work with the current combat system. Doesn’t take away the fact that I like raids, getting together with ~10 people (SWTOR was 8 even) and doing content together. Right now there isn’t any that is where the problem lies. Dragons? Done. Still do them sometimes, but it’s over in a matter of minutes. Running around in Orr? God how I hate that zone. The events going on are extremely boring and you need sometimes a lot of players for them to work. Someone said you can do it with ~5 ‘good’ people, but I doubt that (Lyssa for instance).

So, in short: there is not high level content for most people to enjoy that is challenging enough. Devil: more world things going on? Hell, kitten yes! We have some right now, but as I said: really, really don’t like Orr. That’s an opinion, though I haven’t come across a lot of people that really like Orr. Dungeons too are overall pretty boring to do a lot (and god do I have to do them a lot for my skins) and I get burned out because of them.

EDIT: My apologies for my earlier response, however it is extremely frustrating to see the same stupid comments made about raiding that are extremely selfish and have sustain no good arguments against it. “I don’t want it, because I don’t like it.” Fine, but I have also seen this: “I don’t want the developers to waste their time on it as they can be working on things I like.” Extremely childish.

Warruz.8096:

Ganzo.5079:

mulch.2586:

I have done Orr temples. To me a major difference is the scope and simplicity. If you want to beat them easy, they’re zergable (cept Balthazar, which I’ve only won because it bugged but seems not exactly zergable). Just like with Tequatl and the other dragons, if you have enough people, it’s too easy to be fun because they don’t scale.

So the real solution is not about raids, but with more scalable world events.
Now it can be difficult, but i can say that devs can counter high numbers, only with high numbers. MORE ADDS and stronger boss! just like the LOST SHORE event final boss!

scalability is only part of it. No one wants difficulty in the sense of just slap more health and do more damage, that is not fun. You want mechanics that make it difficult, what if at so many people jormag no longer allows you to huddle together to take damage. Thats the problem with world events like dragons only so much can be done because there is no limit on the amount of people. Only by limiting that does the difficulty go up enough to be considered a challenge.

Really the heart of this argument isnt about raids its about having challenging content that a set group of people can embark on that actually causes you to work together and progress just In a larger group which allows for more mechanics in a fight not just one or two.

You dont get my concept, my bad lol.

They cant powerup a boss too much, but they can add more monsters to the encounter, just to keep busy the high number of players. The real scalability of the encounter, is on the quantity and quality of the ADDS Spawned with the boss.

I would like to point out there are large events that take a ‘Raid’ to complete. Have you and your guild done and compleated all the Orr Temples yet?

Or are you just after the ability to increase your group size?

DevilLordLaser.8619:

You have to realize, Scar, that the raiding set around the forums is going to be catching a lot of the remnant heat from the whole Ascended gear debacle, since it was the “WE WANT RAIDZ!!11!oneeleven” sorts who managed to get ArenaNet to ball up seven years of integrity and player trust and huck it in our faces. Even those few remaining players who are willing to still extend them a chance (i.e. me and maybe three other guys on the forum) are still quite kittened off about that, and we pretty much blame you folks for it. So your arguments are going to be falling on…well, maybe three or four sets of deaf ears. As well as a lot of ears who are going to be thanking you for dealing a devastating blow to our game already.

You guys who want challenge and raid-style gear grind kind of already got your thing. Can the rest of us not have to deal with it anymore?

Nail on the head. They can’t seem to even tolerate the idea that one game on the market does not cater to them – not one single game.

This game has no fee – why not play this for what it is and play the other game that has a lot of experience at delivering high quality raid content that gives you shiny purples to strut around in? I don’t expect this game to satisfy all my gaming needs in one package. Why do the pro raid crowd?

It does seem to be part of the ongoing campaign to change this game into another bog standard clone…of course, they will then flood the forums with “it’s just a poor wow clone” posts.

Booning.5476:

DevilLordLaser.8619:

You have to realize, Scar, that the raiding set around the forums is going to be catching a lot of the remnant heat from the whole Ascended gear debacle, since it was the “WE WANT RAIDZ!!11!oneeleven” sorts who managed to get ArenaNet to ball up seven years of integrity and player trust and huck it in our faces. Even those few remaining players who are willing to still extend them a chance (i.e. me and maybe three other guys on the forum) are still quite kittened off about that, and we pretty much blame you folks for it. So your arguments are going to be falling on…well, maybe three or four sets of deaf ears. As well as a lot of ears who are going to be thanking you for dealing a devastating blow to our game already.

You guys who want challenge and raid-style gear grind kind of already got your thing. Can the rest of us not have to deal with it anymore?

Nail on the head. They can’t seem to even tolerate the idea that one game on the market does not cater to them – not one single game.

This game has no fee – why not play this for what it is and play the other game that has a lot of experience at delivering high quality raid content that gives you shiny purples to strut around in? I don’t expect this game to satisfy all my gaming needs in one package. Why do the pro raid crowd?

It does seem to be part of the ongoing campaign to change this game into another bog standard clone…of course, they will then flood the forums with “it’s just a poor wow clone” posts.

You posses no understanding of the issue whatsoever if you think ‘raiding’ will make it a WoW clone.

Lol, the funny part about this, is that groups are also in WoW, so by that logic this game is already a WoW clone? I mean if it’s going to have raid (groups with more people) THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!!

OKay I posted last night, came back to read, and waht I’m reading makes me sad. First off, there is /nothing/ in that Manifesto that suggests that dungeon style PVE Content for 10+ players that does not reward hire stats or create a gate cannot be implemented. In fact I think it’s be something to make those that really want to learn to work together in PvE hone their abilities.

Second: The Dragons/Orr are not raids. There is no cap to how many people are there, they can and often are zerged down with simple numbers, not coordination or tactics. Saying that raid-esque content exists and then pointing to those is a false argument.

Thirdly: Please stop off of the cross. Please stop Strawmanning. (When you take someones argument and twist it and change what they actually said so that you can take it apart easier) The Idea that people want challenging structured pve content for groups larger than 5 does not mean they are crapping in your sandbox. They are suggesting making the sandbox bigger. They are asking for something that does not actually affect you if you do not wish to participate.

Fourth: As for Small Guilds and Raiding. Yes, sometimes the challenge of finding a larger group is harder for small groups. That’s simple math. HOWEVER: Guild Wars allows you to be part of more than one Guild. My friends and I have our very small guild, personal, private, it’s ours. Recently however we joined a larger guild because we wanted to do dungeons and fractals. We are still all friends within that larger group, we can still switch to our smaller if needed, while being friends with many people in the larger group now too.

Fifth-ly: Some of these arguments seem as if the ones arguing think that the content will somehow be mandatory. Like all aspects of this game it should be voluntary, and no one here I suggesting otherwise.

Sixhly: Fractals/Ascended Gear. Another Strawman, as ANeT has stated again and again that Ascended gear will be released for /all/ aspects of play. They wanted to release it with fractals but there was a hiccup.

Lastly: Please leave WoW and other games out of this. Those of us that want this content want to play GW2. We love their philosophy and manifesto as much as anyone else. For some people raiding was a bad experience, but ANeT’s angle on MMO’s has been game changing so far, I have complete faith that they could do this. DOnt think of them as ‘Raids’ Call it ‘Larger Harder/Morecomplex Dungeons’ Like regular dungeons, you dont have to play, but if you want CoF Armor you have to do CoF. It’s not better than your crafted armor, it just looks different.

Thank you for yer time.

Was just about to sleep and read ^^THIS^^ Awesome summary!

I might stop using the term ‘raid’ and start using the term ‘larger scale, PvE instanced, epic content dungeon’ because its clear the name itself is driving some people crazy! Think the DE+world boss battle against Jormag, expand it with more story-driven DEs, add multiple difficulties and then place it all in an instance with a maximum number of 10/15/20 players and youve got what im talking about. You could also add new features such as (basic) puzzles, traps…and my mind has gone blank as its 3am!

The MAIN point is that id like to see large scale skill and coordination based battles rather than just numbers zerging down a world boss.

Wretchedscar.4796:

First off, there is /nothing/ in that Manifesto that suggests that dungeon style PVE Content for 10+ players that does not reward hire stats or create a gate cannot be implemented.

They probably could implement raids. The whole point of the blog I posted is that they chose not to. Why? Because it is not part of GW2 leveling experience. Let me give you the link again in case you didn’t read it.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/

Could they change their leveling experience? Yes. Could they create raids at the end regardless of the leveling experience? Yes, but it contradicts their statement about:

Sure, once your character reaches max level, we’ve created new and interesting ways to challenge you as a player, but we didn’t want to force you to master an entirely new subset of the game.

Second: The Dragons/Orr are not raids. There is no cap to how many people are there, they can and often are zerged down with simple numbers, not coordination or tactics. Saying that raid-esque content exists and then pointing to those is a false argument.

True, these are not raids. Though in the current GW2 game these events are the closest we get.

Thirdly: Please stop off of the cross. Please stop Strawmanning. (When you take someones argument and twist it and change what they actually said so that you can take it apart easier) The Idea that people want challenging structured pve content for groups larger than 5 does not mean they are crapping in your sandbox. They are suggesting making the sandbox bigger. They are asking for something that does not actually affect you if you do not wish to participate.

If raids are implemented poorly then, yes, they do affect me. The mistakes of adding the fractal dungeon and ascended gear only through fractals does in fact affect me. It affected enough of the population that they stopped doing events throughout Orr and completing other dungeons. Care would need to be taken to make sure other aspects of their game are not affected. I am currently behind the gear curve in WvW because they have been so slow about releasing ascended gear through other methods.

Fourth: As for Small Guilds and Raiding. Yes, sometimes the challenge of finding a larger group is harder for small groups. That’s simple math.

This has not been an issue for me and has not been something I have talked about. Just acknowledging the comment and that is it directed at others.

Fifth-ly: Some of these arguments seem as if the ones arguing think that the content will somehow be mandatory. Like all aspects of this game it should be voluntary, and no one here I suggesting otherwise.

If implemented poorly, like fractals/ascended gear, then yes, it will be mandatory. Honestly, I’m surprised you sound so offended by people not wanting it. A lot of people do not like, nor want, ascended gear. A lot of people do not like that ascended gear was only for fractals. A lot do not like that it is taking so long to get ascended gear for WvW. They are being neglected.

Pushing out anything like a raid now, or in the near future, would have them be very skeptical of what Arenanet is doing. These people simply would not trust Arenanet to do it the way you propose.

Sixhly: Fractals/Ascended Gear. Another Strawman, as ANeT has stated again and again that Ascended gear will be released for /all/ aspects of play. They wanted to release it with fractals but there was a hiccup.

Yes, they screwed up and they need to work on re-building the trust we had with them. People are not going to blindly trust that this mistake won’t happen again. People want to see that the next time a new dungeon roles out with new ascended gear that the ascended gear is rolled out through other methods. All at the same time. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

Lastly: Please leave WoW and other games out of this. Those of us that want this content want to play GW2. We love their philosophy and manifesto as much as anyone else. For some people raiding was a bad experience, but ANeT’s angle on MMO’s has been game changing so far, I have complete faith that they could do this. DOnt think of them as ‘Raids’ Call it ‘Larger Harder/Morecomplex Dungeons’ Like regular dungeons, you dont have to play, but if you want CoF Armor you have to do CoF. It’s not better than your crafted armor, it just looks different.

Thank you for yer time.

This is the fundamental difference between you and me. You have “complete faith”. I do not. I thought there would not be a new tier of gear till maybe an expansion. Arenanet proved me wrong and a lot of people got upset that vertical gear progression was introduced. Arenanet proved my faith in them wrong again by having ascended gear only for the fractals dungeon. I no longer have blind faith in them. They need to first fix their mistake, secondly follow through on their word when a new dungeon is released, and then maybe some of us will be willing to trust them to do raids without it affecting other parts of the game.

One thing id like you to elaborate on however is the reasons behind why you do not think that certain factors of the standard model of raiding wouldnt fit into the GW2 gameplay.

Sure.

The holy trinity adhered to with such unnatural ferocity in other games is specifically designed to allow players to handle threats larger than themselves. Because a hypothetical game developer – let’s call them Snowstorm for the purposes of this argument, shall we? – because Snowstorm knows that the guy taking the hits will be far more durable than any balanced, self-reliant character can be, it can make its giant bosses hit far harder, spike much higher than they otherwise could. Because Snowstorm knows that the players dealing the pain will be pumping out numbers far higher than any balanced, self-reliant character could, it can make its giant bosses significantly tougher than it otherwise could. And because Snowstorm knows that there will be guys in the back who are moldy cheese at both self-durability and damage but who can sling green numbers like nobody’s bizniz, they can make their bosses’ pressure output, their DPS, significantly higher than they otherwise could.

That’s where your feeling of epic accomplishment in those old raids built on the Snowstorm model comes from – you’re taking down this stupefyingly powerful creature that would be far, far too much for any single player, or even any ten balanced, self-reliant characters because with the proper distribution of roles, you can meet its every challenge with a character specifically designed to meet that challenge and no other. It allows Snowstorm to build those bigger badder bossier bosses that make raids memorable and give the players that awesome “we just punched out g’danged CTHULHU!” feeling.

If you’ve fought an Orrian temple battle, or against a world boss, then you know that the same doesn’t hold true in Guild Wars. Your balanced, self-reliant character ends up taking potshots at a dragon’s toenails and praying to Colin that its endurance comes back quickly enough to get out of the next shotgun blast of player-eating red circles because you can’t dump-stat every other aspect of your character to up your ability to take a hit. You can’t hide behind other folks who’ve chosen to do that, and you can’t count on yet other folks to clean up your mess if you screw it up and scrape out of a red circle with three HP to spare. This game demands that you tackle content on your own merit, with a character that makes logical sense against enemies that can’t be mind-controlled by the guy wearing a stripped-down Panzer calling their mommas fat.

Raids – large-scale, highly coordinated battles against massive “Epic” enemies – are the ultimate form of content available to a Trinity-based game. Trinity-based games are, by their nature, very regimented and coordinated. They have to be, or their system comes apart. Raid-style content responds well to that paradigm, whereas Guild Wars’ paradigm of balanced, self-reliant characters who cannot overspecialize in any single area, who are incapable of mind-controlling an enemy’s every action, tends to respond poorly to massive creatures too strong to realistically be dealt with any other way.

Guild Wars 2 ‘raid’ bosses, by necessity, have to be slower, weaker, and more fragile than the bosses raid players so fondly remember from other games, because GW2 itself doesn’t give players the tools to deal with enemies who’re that much more powerful than player-characters. They can be significantly better at AoE damage, but that’s about it. Massive single creatures are this game’s weakest point insofar as combat goes, because we just don’t have the tools to deal with them the way older, more rigid Trinity games do. Raids, by necessity, are built around massive single creatures which are the specific specialty of those older games.

Guild Wars 2 does everything but raid boss-style enemies better than anything else I’ve played. Why, exactly, are we trying to introduce content designed to hang a picture frame on the weakest part of our game?

Wretched:

Manifesto: the argument there is that GW2 is not supposed to just suddenly up and punch you in the face with content you’ve never had a chance to do/learn before when you hit level 80. That’s what other games do, and it often requires you to slog through a level grind with a build that sucks at level grinding and/or to spend a lot of resources once you hit cap to respec into a build that does the content you only just now unlocked the ability to do. Yes, doing that is generally very simple in GW2, but the point is that we don’t want to be one of those games where you’re basically playing one game up until the point where you’re suddenly allowed to play a second, entirely separate game, but with your bad character from the first game.

DragOrr: That’s both the beauty and the risk of world events. They don’t get to be your own personal backyard, and they don’t get to be things that require voice communication levels of coordination between overworld players. They get to be big, snarling furballs where you look after yourself first, anyone else you can second, and just pray that your enemy goes away before you do. Heh, it honestly feels a lot more like a battle to some folks than a raid ever does. No, they’re not raids. Why is that a bad thing, exactly?

Sandbox: If adding your wing to my sandbox means that everyone else is in that part of the sandbox and I can’t find a single soul in my part of the sandbox anymore, you’d better believe your sandbox affects mine. Frellin makes very good points about what might happen if ArenaNet introduces raids as “successfully” as they’ve introduced Fractals. We don’t need more damage right now, we need them to work on repairing what they’ve already broken.

Multi-guilding: Hm hm…so you’ve never seen any of those hardcore guilds that do ‘high-end’ content, which will also kick you so hard you’ll never get the bootprint off your bottom if you so much as mention a passing interest in maybe helping out a casual guild, eh? Multiguilding is a Dirty Word and a Dirty Practice to many of the sorts of players who’d be forming these raiding guilds – either you work for them (and I use the word ‘work’ very deliberately) or you’re out. Yes, it’s a social problem rather than a mechanical one, and it isn’t a problem for everyone, but an MMO developer can afford to ignore social problems no more than they can ignore mechanical ones. Why else would ArenaNet work so hard to keep griefers under control?

Fractals: How mandatory are Fractals? Depends – do you want accessories that give you a giant stat bonus over what you’re currently wearing? If so, then Fractals are pretty fraggin’ mandatory. Yes, Ascended gear will be diffused out to the rest of the game at some point. That doesn’t make it a good idea, or resign us to the fact that we are officially on a gear treadmill. Is it a slow-moving treadmill compared to other, raid-oriented games? Yes. Is it still a treadmill? Also yes. As such, you might be a bit more forgiving when players who’re used to being able to alt to their heart’s content and leave a character sit for several months if they have to see that we’re going to have to be bang on the spot from now on, and to Gehenna with leisurely building up several characters.

Wow: You’re asking ArenaNet to adopt the primary content type of the largest, most successful MMO ever developed. No, we’re not going to leave Warcraft and its numerous clones out of this, because you guys brought it into this. You want to play GW2, you say…except that you want to do it in Warcraft’s endgame. Why? If you like what Guild Wars 2 does, why not try for extended and refined versions of that instead of demanding that ArenaNet switch gears entirely and introduce a new type of content that the game just wasn’t designed for?

I hope Raids NEVER happen in GW2.
I hope Geartreadmil DIES.

=)

I don’t buy this idea that adding raids will have no impact on other areas of the game. Building raids is a huge time commitment for the developers. It is also content that will be excluding a large proportion of their customer base and have a limited shelf life as it will be be burnt through very quickly leading to more calls from the raiders to deliver more.

So unless Anet hire more people dedicated to designing raids (who is going to fund that?) then other areas of the game such as WWW, PVP, open world etc will receive much less attention. Limited resources to go around – Not sure it’s a good model to dedicate most of them to a vocal minority (and yes, you are a minority – you were even a minority in the other game that revolved around raids that had to introduce a LFR tool to convince people to try the content)

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

I hope Raids NEVER happen in GW2.
I hope Geartreadmil DIES.

=)

Raiding has nothing to do with the gear treadmill.

People need to get their heads out of the ground.

This game NEEDS large scale organized group PvE content that guilds can do together.

Correction: you want large-scale organized group PvE content that guilds can do together. That doesn’t mean raids. Some of the rest of us are more concerned with the problems and negative impact that capital-R RAIDZ would have on the game, and are thus trying to tell the rest of you folks to take it easy, eh?

I have no problem with large scale pve content. I probably would never do it, though im sure it would attract players that do, to the game. More players is honestly better for everyone

My only problem would be, it would more than likely also attract those who want better rewards for their “work”, and something akin to a trinity, which would lead to some serious forum whinning.

Frellin.6318:

They could have done it and chose not to. You are asking them to re-design the core of their game.

1. By that definition, nothing new or innovative could be added to the leveling process.

2. Since instance grouping and scalable difficulty already exist, it’s NOT asking for a re-design as much as asking for a spin on something that already exists.

Your statement is absurd.

Barenthius.8917:

sorry if i repeat something i only read first few posts but does anyone not remember

Sorrws Furnace
Urgoz
the luxon one
DoA – pre ursan blitz builds
???

raiding doesnt have to be dependent on gear upgrades they can be a chest like the dragons we kill so often … and a challenge for those to do more at end game levels just saying …

Yeah… call it “missions” or fractals. Problem solved for most people, apparently.

Honestly I dont think 25 man raids like in WoW is what I would like, but I would love to see some bigger raids with 10man (minimum in WoW), nothing more, nothing less.

For now I consider FoTM almost equal to any dungeon(5man) in WoW, it is a good start aldow I would love to see some more phases in boss fights.
We know they are going to add more fractuals which is all fine and good but they can add for example 10 man missions for the guild in the open zones en later on dungeons.

I hope to see them in the future

Regards

Darkdanjal

Nappychappy.7046:

Raiding doesn’t have to be linked to a treadmill. Pretty armor would be more than enough and if you don’t want to raid, don’t.

No one is complaining about the legendary treadmill, it is completely optional. Since we don’t have GvG, and WvW is limited, what is the point of these massive guilds?

GW2 is like XBL, there is thousands of players online, but you can only play with a handful of people at once… I am almost positive GW2 was designed with consoles in mind.

We had proof enough in GW2 that the majority of people wants better rewards out of new content.
Yes you can find 100 people who don’t need it, but GW2 is played by millions and the majority of those millions already proved to not touch content that is not more rewarding than previous content.

The majority plays for the loots, therefore adding raids would mean adding better rewards, emptying previous content, etc.

Also, I’m pretty tired of MMOs who lock you into instances.
Anet was wise to decide to expand on open world content with these patches, because seriously this is a Massively multiplayer game not a 5/10 man game.

Red Falcon.8257:

Nappychappy.7046:

Raiding doesn’t have to be linked to a treadmill. Pretty armor would be more than enough and if you don’t want to raid, don’t.

No one is complaining about the legendary treadmill, it is completely optional. Since we don’t have GvG, and WvW is limited, what is the point of these massive guilds?

GW2 is like XBL, there is thousands of players online, but you can only play with a handful of people at once… I am almost positive GW2 was designed with consoles in mind.

We had proof enough in GW2 that the majority of people wants better rewards out of new content.
Yes you can find 100 people who don’t need it, but GW2 is played by millions and the majority of those millions already proved to not touch content that is not more rewarding than previous content.

The majority plays for the loots, therefore adding raids would mean adding better rewards, emptying previous content, etc.

Also, I’m pretty tired of MMOs who lock you into instances.
Anet was wise to decide to expand on open world content with these patches, because seriously this is a Massively multiplayer game not a 5/10 man game.

I agree with you 100%…

BUT….

>.>.. I would be excited for Expanded Personal Stories instances. Those are lots of fun.

I really hope that Raids never get added. This is how I see it:
The More people you have, the easier the content is.

That’s why 5 man dungoens are harder. Because you can only do good if all 5 people coordinate together as a team. But with 10 people it’s overkill and with More players, it becomes easier because more people can afford to make mistakes as in 5 or less players Cannot afford to make mistakes or else the run is a fail.

[quote=1285422;DreamyAbaddon.3265:]

Red Falcon.8257:

Also, I’m pretty tired of MMOs who lock you into instances.
Anet was wise to decide to expand on open world content with these patches, because seriously this is a Massively multiplayer game not a 5/10 man game.

The problem with open world is that it lacks any real challenge. Also with the way they distribute loot in the game (no “shared” loot) they have to use terrible RNGs to keep it balanced.

For example, in a typical raid, the big boss either drops a few powerful items or a token that can be exchanged for the best items. These items have 100% chance of dropping, but bosses only drop a limited amount of them, so organized guilds need a way to distribute that loot appropriately, for example with a version of a DKP system. This creates a sort of progression for the team/guild instead of the individual.

In Guild Wars 2 on the other hand, there is absolutely no team progression, just plain luck. If you are lucky, you progress, if you are not, you will spend ages and not get anything.

While the system of Guild Wars 2 is nice for pugs, should everything in the game be doable by pugs as easily as it is now? Shouldn’t there be something to motivate guilds to work towards a higher goal? Loot doesn’t need to change, same loot in both “open world” and “raid” version, just in the second one, a lot better chances for it.

When I read about their Guild Missions I was excited, for a few seconds, until I read the rest of the text. So, Guilds will start these missions with 10-15 people around, organize to defeat them, and a random someone that just spams 1, will get some contribution, while the Guild actually defeats the content with strategy/tactics (unless they are like the events we have now, brainless) and has his own share of the same loot… And with how RNG the game is, that random might well end up with a precursor or something, while the 15 guild members end with porous bones.

Why is this “fair” to guilds and organized players? Why join a guild or start a party with regulars/friends in this game? There is no reason for it, just go randomly, follow the zerg, spam1 and get the loot. That’s how it is now, anything else is getting punished, by not getting anything for doing it.

The thing is, GW2 is not required to have raid style content and is also not required to have the role trinity.

However, when you take such basic element out of an MMO, you do need to replace it with something else that people enjoy over a longer period of time and gives them a sense of achievement. For all their plans, this is the part where GW2 has not delivered.

The problem is always that new content makes old content obsolete, simply by being there actually. It’s new, people wanna try it out and people are generally enticed to go there. FotM is a prime example. Ascended items, chance on precursor drops and good gold rewards and everybody goes there. It’s funneling and it makes the existing content completely secondary. It also means leveling is less fun because there are few people to be found there and a lot of DE’s cannot be completed because you are too few.

So where does that leave this “endgame feeling” you are supposed to have from the start? For me the basic flaw is in the reward system. As someone already correctly pointed out. No reward = no participation. People go where the are rewarded mostly. The laurel system seems a step forward in that.

Raiding by itself is not content gating. GW1 had raiding content like UW, DOA and Urgoz for example and it required more skill of the players but it didn’t require better gear because there was no such thing. Everybody had easy access to max stats. Just to prove that raiding doesn’t automatically mean content gating.

The game does lack content that allows more tactical/coordination style play. What does this game offer for people who like that? Nothing really. WvW is mostly zerg. Admittedly there are tactics and coordination involved but on such a different scale that it’s not comparable and you can’t do more than general tactics with a hungry zerg. Dungeons are not interesting enough and the lack of roles do not allow for more. It’s a choice Anet made and the reality is probably simply that if you like more in depth tactics and coordination, GW2 is really not the game to play.

This is why I don’t see raid style content as a viable option for GW2.

maddoctor.2738:

Red Falcon.8257:

Also, I’m pretty tired of MMOs who lock you into instances.
Anet was wise to decide to expand on open world content with these patches, because seriously this is a Massively multiplayer game not a 5/10 man game.

The problem with open world is that it lacks any real challenge. Also with the way they distribute loot in the game (no “shared” loot) they have to use terrible RNGs to keep it balanced.

For example, in a typical raid, the big boss either drops a few powerful items or a token that can be exchanged for the best items. These items have 100% chance of dropping, but bosses only drop a limited amount of them, so organized guilds need a way to distribute that loot appropriately, for example with a version of a DKP system. This creates a sort of progression for the team/guild instead of the individual.

In Guild Wars 2 on the other hand, there is absolutely no team progression, just plain luck. If you are lucky, you progress, if you are not, you will spend ages and not get anything.

While the system of Guild Wars 2 is nice for pugs, should everything in the game be doable by pugs as easily as it is now? Shouldn’t there be something to motivate guilds to work towards a higher goal? Loot doesn’t need to change, same loot in both “open world” and “raid” version, just in the second one, a lot better chances for it.

When I read about their Guild Missions I was excited, for a few seconds, until I read the rest of the text. So, Guilds will start these missions with 10-15 people around, organize to defeat them, and a random someone that just spams 1, will get some contribution, while the Guild actually defeats the content with strategy/tactics (unless they are like the events we have now, brainless) and has his own share of the same loot… And with how RNG the game is, that random might well end up with a precursor or something, while the 15 guild members end with porous bones.

Why is this “fair” to guilds and organized players? Why join a guild or start a party with regulars/friends in this game? There is no reason for it, just go randomly, follow the zerg, spam1 and get the loot. That’s how it is now, anything else is getting punished, by not getting anything for doing it.

And this is why i believe a lot of folks that don’t want raids in this game feel the way they do.

Once added it will (obviously) bring raiders to the game, and the next step becomes “loots”, “DKP” , “work” and all the rest….

2 years of WOW, and i never, never… NEVER accepted sistem like the DKP.
Luckily, as main tank of my old guild, i raised my voice to avoid such stupid sistems in favor of a more friendly loot sistem.

Once added it will (obviously) bring raiders to the game, and the next step becomes “loots”, “DKP” , “work” and all the rest….

agree, theese are the reasons that put me to left wow in favor of the GW2 concept.

“So, Guilds will start these missions with 10-15 people around, organize to defeat them, and a random someone that just spams 1, will get some contribution, while the Guild actually defeats the content with strategy/tactics (unless they are like the events we have now, brainless) and has his own share of the same loot… And with how RNG the game is, that random might well end up with a precursor or something, while the 15 guild members end with porous bones.
Why is this “fair” to guilds and organized players? "

We don’t even have raids just a discussion and it already comes down to wanting to exclude players and just live in little boxes with people that they can control.

Why does a random getting loot bother you? I thought it was all about the challenge / coordination and loot didn’t matter?

DevilLordLaser.8619:

…I don’t know enough people, nor is the guild I’m currently in large enough or h4rdcor3 1337z enough to pull together a big mess of players to go and do some piece of massive content…

That’s really not a good argument for GW1. If the guild you are currently in is small and can’t do that content it’s fine — join another one. Another, not a different one. You can be in up to 5 separate guilds, so you can enjoy your small, tight-knit group and, if you do actually want to see the large-scale content, switch over to the big, organized, guild for a “raid” and then switch back immediately following your success (or failure). That’s one of the truly great innovations in Guild Wars 2.

It’s okay for the game to have content that some players choose not to participate in. Guild missions are coming, and I’d wager they will contain some of the raid-like content that so many people would enjoy having. I just hope they leave gear tiers out of it.

Guild missions sounds like an interesting concept, but I wonder if they really will work. If it does work I think it could do a lot of good to the game, but I wonder if it will simply because it sounds like another type of zerging. I don’t think they will give players bigger party sizes. I think it will be like the commander thingy rather than an actually party set up for 10+ people.

I just want challenging content in general.

This game is no challenge…. zerg event boss spam auto attack at range…. sorry but wheres the depth in that…. oh I got downed hurry one of the 50 people around me zerg res me in a split second lol.

Do I even need to talk about the pointless and utterly boring dragon events? Where the zerg stands there for 10 minutes beating on a dragons hand, with no real fear of dieing?

I expected more to be perfectly honest…. world events with dragons and stuff should have engaging mechanics not just sit and spam a button for 10 minutes… look at jor… a good 10-20 minutes of that fight is you standing in place spamming 1 on an ice shield lol.

The next 10 minutes is the zerg moving to a new spot and spamming 1 from a distance and killing ice pillars if they feel so inclined, if not owell not like its going to affect the zerg.

I mean if raids mean depth and engaging combat im all for it because right now pve wise this game is a joke.

Booning.5476:

Why does a random getting loot bother you? I thought it was all about the challenge / coordination and loot didn’t matter?

The fact that a random someone who just tag along, can get a precursor or any other highly valuable item (for doing nothing), while the ‘other idiots’ get porus bones is what matters.

Effort should be rewarded, not just plain luck

Booning.5476:

We don’t even have raids just a discussion and it already comes down to wanting to exclude players and just live in little boxes with people that they can control.

And why is that bad? We already have dungeons, why would having a few instanced versions of encounters like the Dragons or Temples in Orr be bad?

Ganzo.5079:

Luckily, as main tank of my old guild, i raised my voice to avoid such stupid sistems in favor of a more friendly loot sistem.

What kind of system, care to share with us the details? There isn’t only one DKP out there, that everyone needs to follow for some reason. Every guild uses their own version, one that suits their needs.

Gehenna.3625:

Guild missions sounds like an interesting concept, but I wonder if they really will work. If it does work I think it could do a lot of good to the game, but I wonder if it will simply because it sounds like another type of zerging. I don’t think they will give players bigger party sizes. I think it will be like the commander thingy rather than an actually party set up for 10+ people.

Unfortunately that’s exactly how I feel they will be. Players following the big zerg for looooots.

tic.7425:

And this is why i believe a lot of folks that don’t want raids in this game feel the way they do.
Once added it will (obviously) bring raiders to the game, and the next step becomes “loots”, “DKP” , “work” and all the rest….

And haven’t reached that “step” yet? What do people actually do as “end-game” now? Park your character where the dragon spawn and join in, spam1 for a few minutes and get the loot, or go farm around Orr for Lodestones, forming a huge mindless zerg, that takes care of “loots” and “work” parts of your argument

Namu.5712:

I just want challenging content in general.

And that’s what people like to “avoid” for some reason, challenge. This is how it could work, without adding a new gear tier, or exclusive gear:

Open World: no skill required, few drops, low RNG, lots of farming required
“Raid”: lots of skill/coordination required, more drops, a lot higher RNG, a lot less farming required

Ganzo.5079:

2 years of WOW, and i never, never… NEVER accepted sistem like the DKP.
Luckily, as main tank of my old guild, i raised my voice to avoid such stupid sistems in favor of a more friendly loot sistem.

Once added it will (obviously) bring raiders to the game, and the next step becomes “loots”, “DKP” , “work” and all the rest….

agree, theese are the reasons that put me to left wow in favor of the GW2 concept.

Can we not get off track here with DKP, these are guild decisions not game decisions.

DKP really only existed because of the large 40 mans, Now its a much more uncommon practice , personally i liked suicide kings it was simple and fair but still not the point here.

You dont get my concept, my bad lol.

They cant powerup a boss too much, but they can add more monsters to the encounter, just to keep busy the high number of players. The real scalability of the encounter, is on the quantity and quality of the ADDS Spawned with the boss.

Still you can zerg down the mobs, the shatterer has mobs you prob dont see them cause they die instantly. My point is for outside raid esc bosses to work you need mechanics that actually limit the #’s or effectiveness of the zerg . IT also has an inherit limit on its difficulty as there are no levels for it, something which has been discussed to death in at least this topic is that you as a player should be able to experience everything since an outdoor boss such as the dragons cant be to difficult as they result in you not being able to complete it (or completing it as an observer).

Fractals did one thing and did it great which was providing a level system in terms of difficulty. Level 1 is fairly easy, the hard part is just learning the puzzles. Once you get higher the difficulty ramps up but there is no reason everyone should not be able to do lvl 1 which allows everyone to experience it.

There is nothing stopping a raid from providing such a system.

maddoctor.2738:

Ganzo.5079:

Luckily, as main tank of my old guild, i raised my voice to avoid such stupid sistems in favor of a more friendly loot sistem.

What kind of system, care to share with us the details? There isn’t only one DKP out there, that everyone needs to follow for some reason. Every guild uses their own version, one that suits their needs.

As you said, most of the guild use a loot sistem that fit the GUILD Need, and not the player need. One time a member of another guilds just tell something like this:

“The items dropped on raid belong to the guild, and must be used FOR the guild.”

And a sistem like Dkp help the ones that do a lot of raids, and not the ones that really need items.
For my sake, on my old raid group, we was all mature people before to be mature players, so, loot division was quite easy.

Anyway yes we are off topic, this is only a reply to maddoctor

maddoctor.2738

tic.7425:

And this is why i believe a lot of folks that don’t want raids in this game feel the way they do.
Once added it will (obviously) bring raiders to the game, and the next step becomes “loots”, “DKP” , “work” and all the rest….

And haven’t reached that “step” yet? What do people actually do as “end-game” now? Park your character where the dragon spawn and join in, spam1 for a few minutes and get the loot, or go farm around Orr for Lodestones, forming a huge mindless zerg, that takes care of “loots” and “work” parts of your argument

What do i do as end game? WvW…

and having a blast, thanks.

Look, you want raids? More power to you, I hope you get them. What i really don’t want to see is this never ending gear chase that just spreads like a cancer throughout the game once it starts.

I don’t care how they do it, i just don’t want gear tiers in my PvP. Its honestly incredible how much more kitten i kick in pvp when i’m on even footing with my opponent.

I’m so selfish, i know

You start the crap with epic loots, DKP, and all the rest, and it starts to rear its ugly head in WvW. Either you and your loots join WvW and i’m outgunned, or they start to add these ridiculous tiers of PvP gear, and even footing is out the window.

You want raids? No problem. Why cant the rewards be guild titles, armor skins, weapon skins, PvE guild perks (to do your next “tier”), i don’t know, but can we please stop with the epic lootz, at least in one decent MMO?

tic.7425:

You want raids? No problem. Why cant the rewards be guild titles, armor skins, weapon skins, PvE guild perks (to do your next “tier”), i don’t know, but can we please stop with the epic lootz, at least in one MMO?

Sure I agree with you. If anything Ascended Gear acquired in WvW (when that comes) should be equippable by anyone, regardless of actual level, so if you are doing lots of WvW with your level 1, by 10 you could start wearing Ascended already, so lower levels will have an even play field IF they do a lot of WvW. At least that’s how I think it should work…

I never said anything about having exclusive gear only available in raids, on the contrary, “Raids” if/when/whatever they are implemented should give the exact same gear types as any other content. That was the big mistake with Fractals and the devs already aknowledged it and try to solve it now. Having Ascended items drop only in Fractals was a serious blunder, that hurt Anet, many players quit because of it (and the addition of a new tier of course) and I’m not sure if they are ever coming back.

I’m against exclusive gear in any kind of dungeon/raid whatever. What I “hate” though is farming the same boring thing all day, I want a chance to get, what others get by RNG, or farming for days, in a few tries (when I finally finish it) of some hard to defeat content. Not something exclusive for them stat-wise, the next gear tier or anything, just a way to lessen RNG loot dependance and add more challenge in its place.

Currently all you need for loot is faith in RNG and luck… Some effort should be rewarded.

tic.7425:

You want raids? No problem. Why cant the rewards be guild titles, armor skins, weapon skins, PvE guild perks (to do your next “tier”), i don’t know, but can we please stop with the epic lootz, at least in one decent MMO?

The loot subject is not the same as loot. GW2 already has the epic loot called ascended and there is nothing set in stone that there won’t be any gear progression. Also because more levels will be added later on.

So raids or not, the loot issue you fear is already there.

tic.7425:

maddoctor.2738

tic.7425:

And this is why i believe a lot of folks that don’t want raids in this game feel the way they do.
Once added it will (obviously) bring raiders to the game, and the next step becomes “loots”, “DKP” , “work” and all the rest….

And haven’t reached that “step” yet? What do people actually do as “end-game” now? Park your character where the dragon spawn and join in, spam1 for a few minutes and get the loot, or go farm around Orr for Lodestones, forming a huge mindless zerg, that takes care of “loots” and “work” parts of your argument

What do i do as end game? WvW…

and having a blast, thanks.

Look, you want raids? More power to you, I hope you get them. What i really don’t want to see is this never ending gear chase. I don’t care how they do it, i just don’t want gear tiers in my PvP. Its honestly incredible how much more kitten i kick in pvp when i’m on even footing with my opponent.

I’m so selfish, i know

You start the crap with epic loots, DKP, and all the rest, and it starts to rear its ugly head in WvW. Either you and your loots join WvW and i’m outgunned, or they start to add these ridiculous tiers of PvP gear, and even footing is out the window.

You want raids? No problem. Why cant the rewards be guild titles, armor skins, weapon skins, PvE guild perks (to do your next “tier”), i don’t know, but can we please stop with the epic lootz, at least in one decent MMO?

Perhaps this discussion is just everyone coming in without reading everything but at least me and a few others who are in favor of raids are fine without the gear progress(well you can still have gear progression but in the sense is provides a resistance for there like agony ).

Im just gonna lay out how id like to see raids done in GW2

10 People Max
10 Difficulty Levels(for the sake of argument, just less then fractals is the point)
Ascension Level Gear
Gear Progression is through resistance within the raid(has its own resistance)
Bosses have multiple Mechanics
Said mechanics are based in the fight and can be completed by anyone, not requiring a certain class

Gehenna.3625:

tic.7425:

You want raids? No problem. Why cant the rewards be guild titles, armor skins, weapon skins, PvE guild perks (to do your next “tier”), i don’t know, but can we please stop with the epic lootz, at least in one decent MMO?

The loot subject is not the same as loot. GW2 already has the epic loot called ascended and there is nothing set in stone that there won’t be any gear progression. Also because more levels will be added later on.

So raids or not, the loot issue you fear is already there.

As Maddoctor already said, I believe Anet already realized their “mistake”, and with it coming to WvW shortly, I’m hoping theres limits to what we see in the future.

tic.7425:

Gehenna.3625:

tic.7425:

You want raids? No problem. Why cant the rewards be guild titles, armor skins, weapon skins, PvE guild perks (to do your next “tier”), i don’t know, but can we please stop with the epic lootz, at least in one decent MMO?

The loot subject is not the same as loot. GW2 already has the epic loot called ascended and there is nothing set in stone that there won’t be any gear progression. Also because more levels will be added later on.

So raids or not, the loot issue you fear is already there.

As Maddoctor already said, I believe Anet already realized their “mistake”, and with it coming to WvW shortly, I’m hoping theres limits to what we see in the future.

Anet have realised their mistake in that, but that doesn’t mean they have a good solution for it. Will they let people wear Ascended gear at lower level? I dunno. What will happen when you go to PvE? Will you have to (un)equip every time you move from one to the other? Will there be WvW only gear like sPvP? Maybe you know, I haven’t seen the details yet.

But gear progression is here, perhaps a bit slower but it’s here. I’m just saying it’s odd to fear the coming of something that is already here. I am sure the next thing will be tiered infusions, for example.

Time will tell but Anet have made a number of bad decisions, that are odd at best. Perhaps they will do better now, perhaps…

Gehenna.3625:

Anet have realised their mistake in that, but that doesn’t mean they have a good solution for it. Will they let people wear Ascended gear at lower level? I dunno. What will happen when you go to PvE? Will you have to (un)equip every time you move from one to the other? Will there be WvW only gear like sPvP? Maybe you know, I haven’t seen the details yet.
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I really dont think they will let Ascended usable if you are not a TRUE level 80 char.

Gehenna.3625:

tic.7425:

Gehenna.3625:

tic.7425:

You want raids? No problem. Why cant the rewards be guild titles, armor skins, weapon skins, PvE guild perks (to do your next “tier”), i don’t know, but can we please stop with the epic lootz, at least in one decent MMO?

The loot subject is not the same as loot. GW2 already has the epic loot called ascended and there is nothing set in stone that there won’t be any gear progression. Also because more levels will be added later on.

So raids or not, the loot issue you fear is already there.

As Maddoctor already said, I believe Anet already realized their “mistake”, and with it coming to WvW shortly, I’m hoping theres limits to what we see in the future.

Anet have realised their mistake in that, but that doesn’t mean they have a good solution for it. Will they let people wear Ascended gear at lower level? I dunno. What will happen when you go to PvE? Will you have to (un)equip every time you move from one to the other? Will there be WvW only gear like sPvP? Maybe you know, I haven’t seen the details yet.

But gear progression is here, perhaps a bit slower but it’s here. I’m just saying it’s odd to fear the coming of something that is already here. I am sure the next thing will be tiered infusions, for example.

Time will tell but Anet have made a number of bad decisions, that are odd at best. Perhaps they will do better now, perhaps…

I don’t know the answer either, I do know they seemed to have tried to fix this with making ascended available in more than just FotM.

“Fear” is a strong word, I’ll wait and see. Oddly enough, i have some faith that things will work out. If not, theres other places to go (coming soon enough i should say), and I’ll take my money’s elsewhere, and hope for the best there.

/shrug