Guild Wars 2

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That’s why 5 man dungoens are harder. Because you can only do good if all 5 people coordinate together as a team. But with 10 people it’s overkill and with More players, it becomes easier because more people can afford to make mistakes as in 5 or less players Cannot afford to make mistakes or else the run is a fail.

[/quote]

Not true. Ever played 10 man raids in WoW, Rift, (8man in SWTOR) or another game? It can be just as unforgiving as 5man. Especially 10man heroic runs required a lot of coordination and were hard now and again. Heroic 5 man content in those games were a breeze.

Also I have said this before:
Content, regardless of what it is, should be rewarding, period. Pvp, PvE, WvWvW. All of it.

For instance ‘10 man challenging content’ is implemented. Rewards? Normal RNG loot like they have now, but also skins.

“AMG I HAVE TO DO RAIDS NOW TO GET THE SKIN?!” Well first off, instances have the same, but also, a solution: make in the same 10man content a small dungeon designed for 5 man. Not the same dungeon, a seperate one. Again: RNG loot (why? because that’s how it already is now in game, let’s not get on that), but also tokens.

‘10man content’ because it costs more time, coordination etc. reward more tokens (not way more of course) and 5 man does so too, but, to compensate as it is easier to get a group for, difficulty might be lower etc. the tokens are distributed at a slightly lower rate.

Result: PvE content that people would like, new skins, don’t we all want new skins? And it is also available for everyone. It’s not a gear treadmill as it should be in line with other lvl 80 skins then as well (I’m doing SE exp for the skins, the stats are useless for my specc anyway, sadly).

This is my idea as to make it fair and middle ground for those that are opposed of a gear treadmill or being ‘forced’ to do content for said item/skin. You don’t HAVE to do the raid, you can also do the 5man, that you enjoy more! Profit! Yeej!

But luckily, they are working on more open world PvE content and if it requires more coordination and still is rewarding enough you won’t hear me for a while! Orr, on paper, is cool, but the execution is poor.

Increasing stats on gear is completely pointless and meaningless.

The NPC stats are adjusted to player stats as new tiers are introduced. It’s like in a running competion where the runners are about to reach the finish line; a few more miles of road are added to push the finish line farther away. Its like running on a hamster wheel. You aren’t going anywhere.

Besides, in WoW; the number are so rediculously inflated that they take up almost the whole screen. So what if my Fireball hit the target for 16,789,987 damage on a target that has 456,678,422 health? Whats the point of this other that it being stupid?

Calae.1738:

Increasing stats on gear is completely pointless and meaningless.

The NPC stats are adjusted to player stats as new tiers are introduced. It’s like in a running competion where the runners are about to reach the finish line; a few more miles of road are added to push the finish line farther away. Its like running on a hamster wheel. You aren’t going anywhere.

Besides, in WoW; the number are so rediculously inflated that they take up almost the whole screen. So what if my Fireball hit the target for 16,789,987 damage on a target that has 456,678,422 health? Whats the point of this other that it being stupid?

Haha indeed, but there still needs to be a reward, so new skins and stuff, I think, are a good one as there aren’t a whole lot in game yet (the cultural ones are brilliant though). In that perspective I can understand the Ascended gear issue, but ANet said that there are going to be more ways to get it, wasn’t that happening with this patch?

Direksone.3867:

Haha indeed, but there still needs to be a reward, so new skins and stuff, I think, are a good one as there aren’t a whole lot in game yet (the cultural ones are brilliant though). In that perspective I can understand the Ascended gear issue, but ANet said that there are going to be more ways to get it, wasn’t that happening with this patch?

January patch sets them up for the February patch. February is when the fix should be coming. Though we will not know how everything works out till it is released. They have only given hints as to how it will work.

Aha! Okay. Well I guess if they make it available through other means it should make this a little better. (On a side note: can’t wait for the coming updates, weeeee)

Isn’t a Raid really just an instanced DE? I mean, the problem with Raids in WoW is that it required 40 people in a guild in the right configuration, so maybe 10% of the population actually got to experience a Raid.

If done well, a DE sequence can take place of a Raid. You already see a high level of communication when people try to take Lyssa’s Temple. I would love to see more like that, with meaningful rewards and well tuned difficulty.

Katai.6240:

Isn’t a Raid really just an instanced DE? I mean, the problem with Raids in WoW is that it required 40 people in a guild in the right configuration, so maybe 10% of the population actually got to experience a Raid.

If done well, a DE sequence can take place of a Raid. You already see a high level of communication when people try to take Lyssa’s Temple. I would love to see more like that, with meaningful rewards and well tuned difficulty.

Yes, but they lowered the amount to 10 and 25 man. A few months ago introduced a Looking for Raid system at a lower difficulty, slightly worse loot (I believe different lock out as well) so even more people could experience raids. This angered most of the ‘hardcore’ crowd, but has opened up their content to most of the people. There are always people that will not do raids, but there are plenty of tools for even people that play ‘solo’ to do it.

EDIT: And yes, a raid is just an instanced DE, though when it is not infinite amount of people can join, which results in people zerging through content making it too easy (one of the complaints people have). For some reason the word ‘raid’ makes people’s skin crawl.

I wouldn’t mind raids if I could PUG them and they didn’t introduce gating/gear grind.

That’s kind of the point, Shinzan. The folks arguing for raids are, generally, arguing for them to be testicle-smashingly difficult, to the point where ten elite players utilizing top of the line voice communication and with long practice at both working together and running the raid would still have a failure rate over fifty percent. Well over fifty percent, most of the time. The intent is to create content challenging enough to satisfy the Hardcore Elite, which would also be content challenging enough to be effectively unpuggable. And since this content would only be fresh and new and interesting a few times, before it became boring as well as testicle-smashingly difficult, if the content is introduced it will be inevitable that, eventually, people will want it to offer significantly greater/more rewards than other types of content specifically because it’s so much more difficult to successfully complete. Which…means we’re back to Warcraft’s tired old Raid-Or-Die paradigm.

All this, because people have no conception of how any MMO even remotely within Warcraft’s sphere could have any sort of endgame content of any type whatsoever beyond PvP or raiding. Either you’re pivipping or you’re goin’ out on RAIDZ. it is, apparently, effectively impossible to work up and refine the open-world content to end-game standards or introduce elite zones a’la the old-fashioned Guild Wars games, rather than going once again to the heavyweight champion and ripping off their ideas.

So…yeah. Apparently, either you like raids or you don’t have a valid opinion.

DevilLordLaser.8619:

That’s kind of the point, Shinzan. The folks arguing for raids are, generally, arguing for them to be testicle-smashingly difficult, to the point where ten elite players utilizing top of the line voice communication and with long practice at both working together and running the raid would still have a failure rate over fifty percent. Well over fifty percent, most of the time. The intent is to create content challenging enough to satisfy the Hardcore Elite, which would also be content challenging enough to be effectively unpuggable. And since this content would only be fresh and new and interesting a few times, before it became boring as well as testicle-smashingly difficult, if the content is introduced it will be inevitable that, eventually, people will want it to offer significantly greater/more rewards than other types of content specifically because it’s so much more difficult to successfully complete. Which…means we’re back to Warcraft’s tired old Raid-Or-Die paradigm.

All this, because people have no conception of how any MMO even remotely within Warcraft’s sphere could have any sort of endgame content of any type whatsoever beyond PvP or raiding. Either you’re pivipping or you’re goin’ out on RAIDZ. it is, apparently, effectively impossible to work up and refine the open-world content to end-game standards or introduce elite zones a’la the old-fashioned Guild Wars games, rather than going once again to the heavyweight champion and ripping off their ideas.

So…yeah. Apparently, either you like raids or you don’t have a valid opinion.

Well you could make everyone happier by introducing, as said before, the difficulty scaling that Fractals offer. Perhaps not the same amount, but in WoW, SWTOR and Rift you had a ‘normal’ mode, which was mostly very easy to get into and then for those that wanted a challenge there was heroic (and another level: Nightmare in SWTOR). Scaling like that would definately appease more people I think.

never been in a raid nor do i know much wtf raid is exactly other than a large group killing a boss? anyway, No. Do not want that. I want a dungeon that doesn’t get old after a week (maybe with randomized enemies every time you enter) and Hard Mode. Five player teams for a 2012 game is laughable so i’d want at least 8 and preferable 10.

Nuka Cola.8520:

never been in a raid nor do i know much wtf raid is exactly other than a large group killing a boss? anyway, No. Do not want that. I want a dungeon that doesn’t get old after a week (maybe with randomized enemies every time you enter) and Hard Mode. Five player teams for a 2012 game is laughable so i’d want at least 8 and preferable 10.

How can you say you don’t want something if you’ve never tried it? And if they add an increase in party-size as you suggested, then it would be a raid. So do you want raid’s or not?

Martin The Brave.8731:

Nuka Cola.8520:

never been in a raid nor do i know much wtf raid is exactly other than a large group killing a boss? anyway, No. Do not want that. I want a dungeon that doesn’t get old after a week (maybe with randomized enemies every time you enter) and Hard Mode. Five player teams for a 2012 game is laughable so i’d want at least 8 and preferable 10.

How can you say you don’t want something if you’ve never tried it? And if they add an increase in party-size as you suggested, then it would be a raid. So do you want raid’s or not?

I don’t even know what raid is exactly so don’t care. Increase of players in already boring/overdone/unrewarding dungeons gw2 has won’t change anything. Do i want to do 1000000th AC run with 10 people and mobs drop greens instead of blues? **** NO!

DevilLordLaser.8619:

That’s kind of the point, Shinzan. The folks arguing for raids are, generally, arguing for them to be testicle-smashingly difficult, to the point where ten elite players utilizing top of the line voice communication and with long practice at both working together and running the raid would still have a failure rate over fifty percent. Well over fifty percent, most of the time. The intent is to create content challenging enough to satisfy the Hardcore Elite, which would also be content challenging enough to be effectively unpuggable. And since this content would only be fresh and new and interesting a few times, before it became boring as well as testicle-smashingly difficult, if the content is introduced it will be inevitable that, eventually, people will want it to offer significantly greater/more rewards than other types of content specifically because it’s so much more difficult to successfully complete. Which…means we’re back to Warcraft’s tired old Raid-Or-Die paradigm.

All this, because people have no conception of how any MMO even remotely within Warcraft’s sphere could have any sort of endgame content of any type whatsoever beyond PvP or raiding. Either you’re pivipping or you’re goin’ out on RAIDZ. it is, apparently, effectively impossible to work up and refine the open-world content to end-game standards or introduce elite zones a’la the old-fashioned Guild Wars games, rather than going once again to the heavyweight champion and ripping off their ideas.

So…yeah. Apparently, either you like raids or you don’t have a valid opinion.

The point of raid’s isn’t simply to be hard or a significant part of the endgame. It is suppose to allow Guild’s to have the ability to run content exclusive to them in a large enough group. And so what if people want it to provide greater rewards? That does not mean Arenanet has to implement it. Arenanet set the ground work for how raid’s should be done in GW1 (UW/The Deep) and what they created in that game should live on here.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Nuka Cola.8520:

never been in a raid nor do i know much wtf raid is exactly other than a large group killing a boss? anyway, No. Do not want that. I want a dungeon that doesn’t get old after a week (maybe with randomized enemies every time you enter) and Hard Mode. Five player teams for a 2012 game is laughable so i’d want at least 8 and preferable 10.

How can you say you don’t want something if you’ve never tried it? And if they add an increase in party-size as you suggested, then it would be a raid. So do you want raid’s or not?

I don’t even know what raid is exactly so don’t care. Increase of players in already boring/overdone/unrewarding dungeons gw2 has won’t change anything. Do i want to do 1000000th AC run with 10 people and mobs drop greens instead of blues? **** NO!

Who said that Raid’s will use pre-made dungeons? When they did “Raids” in the original Guildwars they were completely different dungeons with different loot tables.

raids with this current combat system would be incredibly stupid…everyone would just be zerging with no rhyme or reason to it unless they had little stupid platform / adventure game type mechanics like with Jade Maw…honestly i think the combat system is Fisher Price. The lack of class distinction and roles is boring, the raids would be boring because theres no inherent structure or much depth at all to the combat.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Nuka Cola.8520:

never been in a raid nor do i know much wtf raid is exactly other than a large group killing a boss? anyway, No. Do not want that. I want a dungeon that doesn’t get old after a week (maybe with randomized enemies every time you enter) and Hard Mode. Five player teams for a 2012 game is laughable so i’d want at least 8 and preferable 10.

How can you say you don’t want something if you’ve never tried it? And if they add an increase in party-size as you suggested, then it would be a raid. So do you want raid’s or not?

I don’t even know what raid is exactly so don’t care. Increase of players in already boring/overdone/unrewarding dungeons gw2 has won’t change anything. Do i want to do 1000000th AC run with 10 people and mobs drop greens instead of blues? **** NO!

You don’t know and that is obvious. Raids are a different instance than regular 5 man dungeons.

lothefallen.7081:

raids with this current combat system would be incredibly stupid…everyone would just be zerging with no rhyme or reason to it unless they had little stupid platform / adventure game type mechanics like with Jade Maw…honestly i think the combat system is Fisher Price. The lack of class distinction and roles is boring, the raids would be boring because theres no inherent structure or much depth at all to the combat.

Not entirely true, Fractals feature some cool mechanics that actually require coordination (The Dredge Fractal for instance with the Dredge/Ice Elemental at the end)

GW1 elite areas sucked, most of us never got to finish them or even get a group going to start with. Casual players shouldn’t be restricted from experiencing all content the game has to offer.

Katai.6240:

Isn’t a Raid really just an instanced DE? I mean, the problem with Raids in WoW is that it required 40 people in a guild in the right configuration, so maybe 10% of the population actually got to experience a Raid.

If done well, a DE sequence can take place of a Raid. You already see a high level of communication when people try to take Lyssa’s Temple. I would love to see more like that, with meaningful rewards and well tuned difficulty.

No, raid’s unlike DE’s do not scale or provide significant variation in plot. Raid’s usually include more than one boss and provide significantly different loot-tables then the rest of the game. Raid’s tend to be much longer than most in-game content and are set to the background to significant lore. I didn’t really play WoW much but most of their raids were 10 – 20 man and not 40 man.

In Vanilla WoW most raids were 40 man, Zul’Gurub being an exception and perhaps another one, I can’t recall. That changed in TBC where most were 10-25, but still featured a 40man dungeon. In WOTLK they scrapped that and there were only 10-25.

But in essence: GW2 raids could be a massive DE, there are a lot of options really.

Shinzan.2908:

GW1 elite areas sucked, most of us never got to finish them or even get a group going to start with. Casual players shouldn’t be restricted from experiencing all content the game has to offer.

When Faction’s came out place’s like Urgoz Warren,The Deep,Fissue of woe were full of people trying to do the dungeon. Even when Eye of the north drop alot of the “Elite” area’s were full. When did you buy Guildwars 1?

If its like the deep/Urgoz i’d take that but what exactly is the difference between those and gw2 or eotn dungeons (other than them being much more fun and larger groups)? If a dungeon is fun (which isn’t included in gw2) large number of players will only decrease everyone’s fps in a so poorly optimized game. Fun/rewarding new dungeons is what anet should focus on and not 40 players co-op/

Direksone.3867:

In Vanilla WoW most raids were 40 man, Zul’Gurub being an exception and perhaps another one, I can’t recall. That changed in TBC where most were 10-25, but still featured a 40man dungeon. In WOTLK they scrapped that and there were only 10-25.

But in essence: GW2 raids could be a massive DE, there are a lot of options really.

There are only five 40 – man’s in WoW and only three are active, regardless of that what does that have to do with Guildwars (Not being cynical)?

Martin The Brave.8731:

Shinzan.2908:

GW1 elite areas sucked, most of us never got to finish them or even get a group going to start with. Casual players shouldn’t be restricted from experiencing all content the game has to offer.

When Faction’s came out place’s like Urgoz Warren,The Deep,Fissue of woe were full of people trying to do the dungeon. Even when Eye of the north drop alot of the “Elite” area’s were full. When did you buy Guildwars 1?

The Deep (international district) and Urgoz (international district) were full 24/7 way after Factions release. I remember doing Urgoz in 2010 and it still had bunch of people but not 24/7 like it was in 07-09.

Nuka Cola.8520:

If its like the deep/Urgoz i’d take that but what exactly is the difference between those and gw2 or eotn dungeons (other than them being much more fun and larger groups)? If a dungeon is fun (which isn’t included in gw2) large number of players will only decrease everyone’s fps in a so poorly optimized game. Fun/rewarding new dungeons is what anet should focus on and not 40 players co-op/

The difference between UW/The Deep and dungeons in Eotn is: UW and The deep were 12-man and larger(With specific loot-drops) and Eotn dungeons were 8-man and smaller and had vendor items. Where are you getting 40-players from, Most raids are 10-20 and no one has suggested 40 man raids.

My philosophy on INSTANCED raids:

*Easy content and not different from the instances what we have right now except for number of people

JemL.3501:

My philosophy on INSTANCED raids:

*Easy content and not different from the instances what we have right now except for number of people

How do you know raid content would be easy? If Anet implemented Raids don’t you think they would make it more challenging given the number of people in the instanced area?

Martin The Brave.8731:

JemL.3501:

My philosophy on INSTANCED raids:

*Easy content and not different from the instances what we have right now except for number of people

How do you know raid content would be easy? If Anet implemented Raids don’t you think they would make it more challenging given the number of people in the instanced area?

Or at least scale-able.

Martin The Brave.8731:

JemL.3501:

My philosophy on INSTANCED raids:

*Easy content and not different from the instances what we have right now except for number of people

How do you know raid content would be easy? If Anet implemented Raids don’t you think they would make it more challenging given the number of people in the instanced area?

Because iam a god and NPCs dont bring competition, they are predictable and know what they are going to do after the first time seeing them, i used to PvPvE for NON INSTANCED raids/world bosses/etc, thats why i consider it so easy content, in instances nobody is going to bother me, nobody is going to steal it, nobody is going to interfere…all i need is obliterate npcs in a linear way, which could one shot or not, or have 1m hp or not, at the end i will win like NP.

But probably thats me, may be iam just too good.

JemL.3501:

Martin The Brave.8731:

JemL.3501:

My philosophy on INSTANCED raids:

*Easy content and not different from the instances what we have right now except for number of people

How do you know raid content would be easy? If Anet implemented Raids don’t you think they would make it more challenging given the number of people in the instanced area?

Because iam a god and NPCs dont bring competition, they are predictable and know what they are going to do after the first time seeing them, i used to PvPvE for NON INSTANCED raids/world bosses/etc, thats why i consider it so easy content, in instances nobody is going to bother me, nobody is going to steal it, nobody is going to interfere…all i need is obliterate npcs in a linear way, which could one shot or not, or have 1m hp or not, at the end i will win like NP.

But probably thats me, may be iam just too good.

So if NPC’s are boring then why play PVE at all? It sounds to me that you are a PvP(er) in which case raid’s,dungeons and DE’s shouldn’t matter to you because your not going to do them anyway. You are apparently “God” and all PvE is boring to you.

Martin The Brave.8731:

JemL.3501:

Martin The Brave.8731:

JemL.3501:

My philosophy on INSTANCED raids:

*Easy content and not different from the instances what we have right now except for number of people

How do you know raid content would be easy? If Anet implemented Raids don’t you think they would make it more challenging given the number of people in the instanced area?

Because iam a god and NPCs dont bring competition, they are predictable and know what they are going to do after the first time seeing them, i used to PvPvE for NON INSTANCED raids/world bosses/etc, thats why i consider it so easy content, in instances nobody is going to bother me, nobody is going to steal it, nobody is going to interfere…all i need is obliterate npcs in a linear way, which could one shot or not, or have 1m hp or not, at the end i will win like NP.

But probably thats me, may be iam just too good.

So if NPC’s are boring then why play PVE at all? It sounds to me that you are a PvP(er) in which case raid’s,dungeons and DE’s shouldn’t matter to you because your not going to do them anyway. You are apparently “God” and all PvE is boring to you.

I never said it bothered me…i said my philosophy..

Besides stating that we already have that kind of stuff but with less number and in the open world, we have temples and map bosses, which you even hold hands with who ever is next to you…so no isnt like is something which this game is lacking.

Not PvP (er) but trully PvPvE (er)

And last but least The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of TIme i consider it as the best game ive ever played and apparently wont change my mind, and all was about PvE solo content.

Martin The Brave.8731:

P.S – Why are you trolling? “Professional Troll”

Iam not familiar with that word, the last time i typed in a post i got insta-infraction, and all i wanted to do is know the meaning, but is a taboo word apparently.

JemL.3501:

Martin The Brave.8731:

JemL.3501:

Martin The Brave.8731:

JemL.3501:

My philosophy on INSTANCED raids:

*Easy content and not different from the instances what we have right now except for number of people

How do you know raid content would be easy? If Anet implemented Raids don’t you think they would make it more challenging given the number of people in the instanced area?

Because iam a god and NPCs dont bring competition, they are predictable and know what they are going to do after the first time seeing them, i used to PvPvE for NON INSTANCED raids/world bosses/etc, thats why i consider it so easy content, in instances nobody is going to bother me, nobody is going to steal it, nobody is going to interfere…all i need is obliterate npcs in a linear way, which could one shot or not, or have 1m hp or not, at the end i will win like NP.

But probably thats me, may be iam just too good.

So if NPC’s are boring then why play PVE at all? It sounds to me that you are a PvP(er) in which case raid’s,dungeons and DE’s shouldn’t matter to you because your not going to do them anyway. You are apparently “God” and all PvE is boring to you.

I never said it bothered me…i said my my philosophy..

Besides stating that we already have that kind of stuff but with less number and in the open world, we have temples and map bosses, which you even hold hands with who ever is next to you…so no isnt like is something which this game is lacking.

Not PvP (er) but trully PvPvE (er)

And last but least The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of TIme i consider it as the best game ive ever played and apparently wont change my mind, and all was about PvE solo content.

1. I never said it bothered you either.
2. Open world content, does not compare to instanced Raids. Thats like comparing Apples to Oranges, or (small)DE’s to Dungeons.
3. So you are a PvX player?
4. Why are you talking about OOT when it has nothing to do with Guildwars or the MMO genre.

“Iam not familiar with that word” I only pointed it out because it was in your signature, If it offends you ill take it down.

Martin The Brave.8731:

JemL.3501:

Martin The Brave.8731:

JemL.3501:

Martin The Brave.8731:

JemL.3501:

My philosophy on INSTANCED raids:

*Easy content and not different from the instances what we have right now except for number of people

How do you know raid content would be easy? If Anet implemented Raids don’t you think they would make it more challenging given the number of people in the instanced area?

Because iam a god and NPCs dont bring competition, they are predictable and know what they are going to do after the first time seeing them, i used to PvPvE for NON INSTANCED raids/world bosses/etc, thats why i consider it so easy content, in instances nobody is going to bother me, nobody is going to steal it, nobody is going to interfere…all i need is obliterate npcs in a linear way, which could one shot or not, or have 1m hp or not, at the end i will win like NP.

But probably thats me, may be iam just too good.

So if NPC’s are boring then why play PVE at all? It sounds to me that you are a PvP(er) in which case raid’s,dungeons and DE’s shouldn’t matter to you because your not going to do them anyway. You are apparently “God” and all PvE is boring to you.

I never said it bothered me…i said my my philosophy..

Besides stating that we already have that kind of stuff but with less number and in the open world, we have temples and map bosses, which you even hold hands with who ever is next to you…so no isnt like is something which this game is lacking.

Not PvP (er) but trully PvPvE (er)

And last but least The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of TIme i consider it as the best game ive ever played and apparently wont change my mind, and all was about PvE solo content.

1. I never said it bothered you either.
2. Open world content, does not compare to instanced Raids. Thats like comparing Apples to Oranges, or (small)DE’s to Dungeons.
3. So you are a PvX player?
4. Why are you talking about OOT when it has nothing to do with Guildwars or the MMO genre.

1. ok
2. i prefer bananas
3. yeah why play a RPG game if i only wanted pvp…i would go to a FPS then or a MOBA but PvPvE isnt same as PvX
4. because i love zelda (was because you told me i was only a pvp(er) and this game is all about console solo pve content)

Sigh. Why is it the immediate response from most players that use these joke of forums is " If theres raids I quit " ?

If you love this game, and you play for skins apparently, youd quit over something that your not even interested in?

The game needs endgame, it needs something for its players that dedicate MORE TIME than your casual player that took 3 months to hit 80.

If ANET doesnt come out with some end game, its going to lose its most dedicated players. Why would people continue to play for years when they are never progressing? Your items are always the best, your skills never chance. You never get any kind of alternate or talent points?

If the vast majority of this forums response is " ENJOY THE GAME MAN GET MORE SKINS dont rush through it!" then ya, this game is going to fail.

In the end, I dont understand why the QQ is here. If people wanna raid, let them. If it doesnt interest you, then dont. And kitten trust that ANET will have a plan that allows for progression that isnt exclusive, its what they do.

Shinzan.2908:

GW1 elite areas sucked, most of us never got to finish them or even get a group going to start with. Casual players shouldn’t be restricted from experiencing all content the game has to offer.

This “everyone should be a winner” crap is whats gonna kill this game. Eventually people will get tired of never progressing, never being challenged, and when they say this this forums response is always " OMGOSH slow down man get more skins ".

ATTHWSM.7840:

Shinzan.2908:

GW1 elite areas sucked, most of us never got to finish them or even get a group going to start with. Casual players shouldn’t be restricted from experiencing all content the game has to offer.

This “everyone should be a winner” crap is whats gonna kill this game. Eventually people will get tired of never progressing, never being challenged, and when they say this this forums response is always " OMGOSH slow down man get more skins ".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=f-81uSLWE9o

ahhhhhhhhh it says bad link, anyway is youtube video.

ATTHWSM.7840:

Sigh. Why is it the immediate response from most players that use these joke of forums is " If theres raids I quit " ?

If you love this game, and you play for skins apparently, youd quit over something that your not even interested in?

The game needs endgame, it needs something for its players that dedicate MORE TIME than your casual player that took 3 months to hit 80.

If ANET doesnt come out with some end game, its going to lose its most dedicated players. Why would people continue to play for years when they are never progressing? Your items are always the best, your skills never chance. You never get any kind of alternate or talent points?

If the vast majority of this forums response is " ENJOY THE GAME MAN GET MORE SKINS dont rush through it!" then ya, this game is going to fail.

In the end, I dont understand why the QQ is here. If people wanna raid, let them. If it doesnt interest you, then dont. And kitten trust that ANET will have a plan that allows for progression that isnt exclusive, its what they do.

Wait a sec.

1) dedicated players are not the ones the finish content in 1 week, theese are only player that have more time to spend in game, and this kind of player are never satisfied, no matter what anet can create.

2)maybe you dont get the entire mechanic. They can create raid even if i really dont know why create them when they can create\improve world bosses, but theese encounter cant provive better equipment!
new rare skins? ok!
better droprate of rare material? ok!
better items then the rest of the game content… ABSOLUTELY NO! (15 november patch teach something)

Ganzo.5079:

ATTHWSM.7840:

Sigh. Why is it the immediate response from most players that use these joke of forums is " If theres raids I quit " ?

If you love this game, and you play for skins apparently, youd quit over something that your not even interested in?

The game needs endgame, it needs something for its players that dedicate MORE TIME than your casual player that took 3 months to hit 80.

If ANET doesnt come out with some end game, its going to lose its most dedicated players. Why would people continue to play for years when they are never progressing? Your items are always the best, your skills never chance. You never get any kind of alternate or talent points?

If the vast majority of this forums response is " ENJOY THE GAME MAN GET MORE SKINS dont rush through it!" then ya, this game is going to fail.

In the end, I dont understand why the QQ is here. If people wanna raid, let them. If it doesnt interest you, then dont. And kitten trust that ANET will have a plan that allows for progression that isnt exclusive, its what they do.

Wait a sec.

1) dedicated players are not the ones the finish content in 1 week, theese are only player that have more time to spend in game, and this kind of player are never satisfied, no matter what anet can create.

2)maybe you dont get the entire mechanic. They can create raid even if i really dont know why create them when they can create\improve world bosses, but theese encounter cant provive better equipment!
new rare skins? ok!
better droprate of rare material? ok!
better items then the rest of the game content… ABSOLUTELY NO! (15 november patch teach something)

While I do agree “Raid’s” should not have a Gear Treadmill. I highly doubt that Arenanet is going to stop creating tiered items, Ascended is just the first one.

DevilLordLaser.8619:

Are you willing to accept that raids will not impinge upon the ability of players to play to their full potential – whatever it may be - and keep up with their friends by doing world events or dungeons or things that don’t require one to work a second job with a stick-up-its-quaggan raiding guild? You’d be content with players not having to go into raid zones for world completion, or with having raids be only a minor, optional component of monthly completion rewards? You’d be content to have raids drop only new exotic skins (because kitten Ascended gear and Fractals anyways)?

For the record, yes. I know that was posted sarcastically, but yes, I would like to see that. Or even better

Actually, they could take it a step further and toss in the dynamic difficulty scaling from events, and a tiered system similar to fractals.

with the same no “gear treadmill” rules. I would love it if they just made every already existing dungeon for 5+ players (5-10, 5-25, 5-40, 5-unlimited, whatever they decided on.) Six guildies on? Let’s roll!! Twelve? Move out! OMGThirty-eight? We’re off to AC story!!
I don’t see how that kind of option could be bad for anyone in the game.

I don’t care if they put raids in the game, just as long as the raids do not include any exclusive content, they can turn the existing dungeons into raids if they like, where people can get a choice to do the raid version of the 5 man version.

If raids where put into the game, I would love for them to be tied closely with guild progression over individual character progression.

Like the stuff that gets dropped in raids is used for upgrading the guildbank or whenever they get around to it guildhalls.

I do not have personally anything about Raids in general. I would not want to participate in those, because i find the idea of overthinking and overpracticing your strategies for the sake of a game to be boring, but i know that there are people that think otherwise. So, as long as this content would not affect me directly, i wouldn’t mind it being added – unfortunately it does affect me.

This game has been designed with a “whole game is the endgame” paradigm. This approach is something i like ind would want to be continued. Unfortunately, the devs made some mistakes (too much concentration on dungeon content, problematic level and loot scaling, underwhelming rewards not only from starting areas, but from open PvE areas on the whole) that went against that design. Now I’d want them to fix that mistakes, and improve on the open PvE content, making all the areas equally interesting for players (and thus avoiding funneling them into few endgame places).
In short, ideally i’d like GW2 to not have any element that you could point to and say “this is endgame content”. Baring that, i’d want such elements marginalized, and made into something that is not significantly more interesting than the rest of the world.

Raids are definitely endgame content. In the game i’d like GW2 to become (the one that would follow original developer promises), nobody would want to do those raids, because open world areas would be just so much more awesome.

You find the open world boring, and your solution is to make a separate type of content that would be more interesting. My preferred solution is to make the open world more interesting than any instances could ever be. Unfortunately, those two ideas just do not go hand to hand.

If you suck at raiding, guess what, you wouldn’t be forced to do them. Just like no one is forcing you to grind, to make a legendary, or to do fractals.

How the hell would DKP even work in gw2? lulz! DKP wasn’t even that big in WoW and if you left WoW because of DKP, I call bullshat esp if you were main tank.

to the main post about raids mybe not raids but in gw1 they had some really good endgame area’s kinda like raids urgos lair, and the other one what was it called ? u had 15 people groups i think sorry been awhile since i was on gw1 then therewas underworld fow to name a few

biggest group size in gw1 was 12, grimmyboy

a big difference there though is that you had npc mercs that you could fill out your party with. here you don’t have that flexibility

This game has a lot of mechanics that are hardly portable to a raid enviroment:

1) Conditions. Some of them, like burning or cripple, stack in time, and it’s not hard at all for many 5-man setups to have them up 100% of the time. A bigger amount of players would decrease the effectiveness of many builds, even worse, of many classes, since some of this DoTs/debuffs are built-in on them and will be taken in account for balance purposes.
Bleed has a 25 stack cap that could be increased without too much problems, but if condition damage is not really popular for 5-man dungeons, it will be even less for a raid where you can assume 25 vulnerability stacks.

2) Boons and Healing affect a maximum of 5 men, which is exactly the number of players a dungeon or tpvp team has.
Increasing this limit would hurt the ratio of support setups, favoring selfish DPS setups, which belong to classes that are actually overused.
Keeping them as it is now would make the support pretty chaotic, specially in melee range where you hardly can measure who is going to be affected by proximity. No need to say that you hardly can make any content challenging at all if getting the right boons at the right time doesn’t even matter.
The only solution I can figure out is the raid being a sum of N 5-man groups along with party priority but … if every 5-man group is going to perform individually, why having a raid at all?

3) Some skills that create an area effect that doesn’t affect a fixed number of players or enemies would become even more powerful. Any number of players can shelter behind a Wall of Reflection / Smoke Screen / … and, since you have more players, you are going to potentially have more of this and easily have everyone invulnerable to ranged attack unless you somehow make those skills useless (hurting badly some specific classes again) or force the raid to split, which make us wonder again: why having a raid at all?

4) Things get better and better if we think on fights with multiple enemies.
Right now it’s usual to have every enemy on a group focusing the same target and sticking to him all the fight.
If the number of enemies is increased, the pressure over that character can be insane. It’s just impossible to evade attacks incoming from a lot of different sources.
If we are using party-wide boons, he also is not going to be more supported than on a 5 man unless you try something like a “dedicated tank group”, which can oversimplification for a challenging content if works.
Some control abilities like mass blind would became terribly random if the enemies come bunched up. You will have more of them, but since the limit of targets, you will not have any control on which of them are affected. Not the best mechanic again for a challenging gameplay.
Since most melee enemies actually cleave, if they came in really high numbers, the damage on melee players can be just devastating, out of control and terribly random.
Same is going to happen with players AoE attacks and with non-piercing projectiles. You are hardly going to have any control on where your damage goes.
If you try tougher and stronger enemies in not so big numbers, just the opposite will happen: Too much control capabilities on players side.
The best solution comes again on splitting, and the same question can be asked again.

IMHO, the combat system doesn’t fit with raids.
Assuming you can’t put a enrage timer on bosses, or not at least a hard one (because it will force a lot of players to specific specs and classes, berzerker GS warriors for example), players dying will never be a failure source (unless you actually script the boss this way, wiping the party or maybe placing a stackable non-removable boon on the boss) and the higher challenge can only come from special mechanics that everyone must accomplish correctly in order to succeed, which are also possible on 5-mans, just with a lesser failure chance cause a lesser number of potential failers.

I think it’s just the same game mode with higher chances to fail by others mistakes and an obvious built-in PUG exclusion.

Martin The Brave.8731:

It sounds to me that you are a PvP(er) in which case raid’s,dungeons and DE’s shouldn’t matter to you because your not going to do them anyway.

I absolutely hate this argument with a passion. Just because you won’t or can’t do certain content doesn’t mean that it doesn’t affect you. The fact of the matter is that creating new content takes time, manpower, and money. And all of those things are limited quantity. So every second of development time that ANet spends making Raid content that only a small (but insanely vocal) fraction of the community can or will play, is a second that they could have better spent on content that everyone will play.

ATTHWSM.7840:

This “everyone should be a winner” crap is whats gonna kill this game. Eventually people will get tired of never progressing, never being challenged, and when they say this this forums response is always " OMGOSH slow down man get more skins ".

And this right here is what it comes down to. It’s not about Raids because Raids are fun, it’s about Raids because Raids are exclusive and elitist.

And “this not having Raids will kill the game!” mindset is complete BS. Being different from the norm of MMOs is the one thing that will make GW2 a success, and is a great reason to stay away from Raids and the trinity, etc.

What it comes down to is that if you really want to play a Raid based game, there are literally dozens if not hundreds of them out there already. Go play one of those. If you want to play an MMO that’s not Raid based, GW2 is really the only option.

Vae Victus.3678:

Martin The Brave.8731:

It sounds to me that you are a PvP(er) in which case raid’s,dungeons and DE’s shouldn’t matter to you because your not going to do them anyway.

I absolutely hate this argument with a passion. Just because you won’t or can’t do certain content doesn’t mean that it doesn’t affect you. The fact of the matter is that creating new content takes time, manpower, and money. And all of those things are limited quantity. So every second of development time that ANet spends making Raid content that only a small (but insanely vocal) fraction of the community can or will play, is a second that they could have better spent on content that everyone will play.

ATTHWSM.7840:

This “everyone should be a winner” crap is whats gonna kill this game. Eventually people will get tired of never progressing, never being challenged, and when they say this this forums response is always " OMGOSH slow down man get more skins ".

And this right here is what it comes down to. It’s not about Raids because Raids are fun, it’s about Raids because Raids are exclusive and elitist.

And “this not having Raids will kill the game!” mindset is complete BS. Being different from the norm of MMOs is the one thing that will make GW2 a success, and is a great reason to stay away from Raids and the trinity, etc.

What it comes down to is that if you really want to play a Raid based game, there are literally dozens if not hundreds of them out there already. Go play one of those. If you want to play an MMO that’s not Raid based, GW2 is really the only option.

Thats not true because everyone knows they have teams working on several things at once. So working on raid content would likely not effect the WvW and pvpers content, so his argument was valid. Whose to say they wouldn’t bring in a small team to specifically work on raid content as well?

I hate arguments that dismiss logic.

And the game doesn’t have to be raid based to have raids, stop thinking black and white terms.

So what some people want a challenge WHY IS IT A PROBLEM FOR YOU?

Namu.5712:

So what some people want a challenge WHY IS IT A PROBLEM FOR YOU?

I already answered that question – it enforces the concept of endgame content being limited to specific areas/activities. As a consequence, the rest of the game suffers.

In my opinion GW2 should move in exactly opposite direction (as befitting the “whole game is the endgame” motto) – making all the open world areas (especially the starting ones) more interesting, and equally interesting regardless of character level.

Even the 1-15 areas should have some content that would be interesting for 80 lev experienced players.

Dungeons and other instanced content should not be a preferred activity