Guild Wars 2

i would not mind something raid like in this game.
Its like dungeons atm, you can do them but you dont have to.

I also think gw2 isnt that different from other mmo’s, but thats probably just me 8-).
So why not something raid like to.

I love raiding too, GW2 should definitely have some raids in-game so you wont get bored on 80. NO ITS NOT COPY OF WOW!

Astralporing.1957:

In my opinion GW2 should move in exactly opposite direction (as befitting the “whole game is the endgame” motto) – making all the open world areas (especially the starting ones) more interesting, and equally interesting regardless of character level.

Open world content can have a difficulty up to a certain level, a very very very very low level of difficulty. The reason, is imbalance in player numbers and player gear/skill. You can’t have a really hard open world encounter because that’s the main reason people don’t want raids in the first place, they want all content to be spam1 and get the loot, as the open world is now.

Different difficulty for different people isn’t possible in the Open World. There will always be those who find it very difficult and those who can do it with their eyes closed, in the Open World they need to set a “standard” for the difficulty, cant’ have deviations, and that’s the main problem with focusing entirely on the Open World.

The results are evident: pathetic rewards/RNG system that everyone complains about, but terrible RNG and EASY encounters are two sides of the same coin. Just imagine, if an event like a Dragon had far superior drops what would have happened in the game, everyone would have a legendary and asking “What’s next?” So, in order to prolong the game’s life, instead of upping some difficulty to keep interest, they resort to terrible RNG chances.

Instead, if multiple versions of the same encounter were available, for example the way Guild Wars 1 did it with Hard and Normal mode, nobody is “left out” of the story/lore or content, BUT those who want theorycrafting, want to formulate good builds, play “better”, focus on teamwork or anything else, can find their challenge. Both types can have the same rewards, only the hardest part could use slightly less annoying RNG, nothing exclusive though.

Vae Victus.3678:

And “this not having Raids will kill the game!” mindset is complete BS. Being different from the norm of MMOs is the one thing that will make GW2 a success, and is a great reason to stay away from Raids and the trinity, etc.

What’s wrong in requesting something “challenging” in a game? I already explained above why the Open World can never be challenging, so the only “solution” is dungeons, or instances in general, and “dungeons that involve lots of players” are generally refered to as “raids” for whatever reason.

It’s not the Raids that are killing the game. It’s the lack of any challenge, the game is so easy to the point of being a brainless grind. It’s more like “work” and “loot” and “grind”, words that people are associating with raids, than any raid! At least if you have to actually THINK while you play, the grind effect can be lessened, at least if the content is challenging, they could get away with better RNG chances.

The problem are not raid themself. If someone want to play smething more challeging with 10 or more poeple, good for him, i raided too much on my gaming life, so i dont really care.
But the problem come when a content influence the game experience of other players. So the question is? why some player need so desperately raids? Only for challenge? or to have stronger equipment then the casual players or the WvWers.
This is the real point!

Raids or not, the concept is always the same! On this game cant exist only a single path to obtain the best equiment, and no path have to be faster then the others. (even if for now ther eis some problem, but they are working on it, i hope…)
If this simple rule is respected, devs can add what they want to the game, because im the only one that choose what to do with my char progression.

maddoctor.2738

What’s wrong in requesting something “challenging” in a game? I already explained above why the Open World can never be challenging, so the only “solution” is dungeons, or instances in general, and “dungeons that involve lots of players” are generally refered to as “raids” for whatever reason.

It’s not the Raids that are killing the game. It’s the lack of any challenge, the game is so easy to the point of being a brainless grind. It’s more like “work” and “loot” and “grind”, words that people are associating with raids, than any raid! At least if you have to actually THINK while you play, the grind effect can be lessened, at least if the content is challenging, they could get away with better RNG chances.

Because it typically doesn’t end with “challenging”. It invariably leads to, my guild is "working " harder, our rewards should be better.

tic.7425:

maddoctor.2738

What’s wrong in requesting something “challenging” in a game? I already explained above why the Open World can never be challenging, so the only “solution” is dungeons, or instances in general, and “dungeons that involve lots of players” are generally refered to as “raids” for whatever reason.

It’s not the Raids that are killing the game. It’s the lack of any challenge, the game is so easy to the point of being a brainless grind. It’s more like “work” and “loot” and “grind”, words that people are associating with raids, than any raid! At least if you have to actually THINK while you play, the grind effect can be lessened, at least if the content is challenging, they could get away with better RNG chances.

Because it typically doesn’t end with “challenging”. It invariably leads to, my guild is "working " harder, our rewards should be better.

Which is also fine, depending on the definition of “better”. Guilds able to “show off” for doing something in a game shouldn’t be considered “bad”, why should it?

I always say that exclusive gear (stat-wise, not skin-wise) is out of the question, and Anet knows that by now and won’t do the same mistake again (I hope)

But, giving players, and more importantly guilds, something to stand out, like a title for all of their members that defeated a powerful foe, or other guild boosts shouldn’t affect anyone, right?

maddoctor.2738:

tic.7425:

maddoctor.2738

What’s wrong in requesting something “challenging” in a game? I already explained above why the Open World can never be challenging, so the only “solution” is dungeons, or instances in general, and “dungeons that involve lots of players” are generally refered to as “raids” for whatever reason.

It’s not the Raids that are killing the game. It’s the lack of any challenge, the game is so easy to the point of being a brainless grind. It’s more like “work” and “loot” and “grind”, words that people are associating with raids, than any raid! At least if you have to actually THINK while you play, the grind effect can be lessened, at least if the content is challenging, they could get away with better RNG chances.

Because it typically doesn’t end with “challenging”. It invariably leads to, my guild is "working " harder, our rewards should be better.

Which is also fine, depending on the definition of “better”. Guilds able to “show off” for doing something in a game shouldn’t be considered “bad”, why should it?

I always say that exclusive gear (stat-wise, not skin-wise) is out of the question, and Anet knows that by now and won’t do the same mistake again (I hope)

But, giving players, and more importantly guilds, something to stand out, like a title for all of their members that defeated a powerful foe, or other guild boosts shouldn’t affect anyone, right?

Now talking about number, only skin or title, are not desirable to the audience that want raids. So with this things, they can add some better droprate of rare material (just for example, if a material have a droprate of 1% on the world content, on raid can become 3% vs the thrash, and 10% Vs the boss ). The important thing is (as you said) avoid like hell better stats on equipment.

maddoctor.2738:

tic.7425:

maddoctor.2738

What’s wrong in requesting something “challenging” in a game? I already explained above why the Open World can never be challenging, so the only “solution” is dungeons, or instances in general, and “dungeons that involve lots of players” are generally refered to as “raids” for whatever reason.

It’s not the Raids that are killing the game. It’s the lack of any challenge, the game is so easy to the point of being a brainless grind. It’s more like “work” and “loot” and “grind”, words that people are associating with raids, than any raid! At least if you have to actually THINK while you play, the grind effect can be lessened, at least if the content is challenging, they could get away with better RNG chances.

Because it typically doesn’t end with “challenging”. It invariably leads to, my guild is "working " harder, our rewards should be better.

Which is also fine, depending on the definition of “better”. Guilds able to “show off” for doing something in a game shouldn’t be considered “bad”, why should it?

I always say that exclusive gear (stat-wise, not skin-wise) is out of the question, and Anet knows that by now and won’t do the same mistake again (I hope)

But, giving players, and more importantly guilds, something to stand out, like a title for all of their members that defeated a powerful foe, or other guild boosts shouldn’t affect anyone, right?

I agree, we had this discussion yesterday

I’m just stating what (i believe is) the mindset of most non-raider types. This is why (i believe) so many are against it, just past experience with raid games, and you can’t blame them (us) really.

I still wonder how many are on the same page, and what these boards would like if “raids” were put in, with the examples discussed given as rewards.

edit: as already mentioned above by Ganzo, “only skin or title, are not desirable to the audience that want raids”.

Challenging is not enough.

Vae Victus.3678:

Martin The Brave.8731:

It sounds to me that you are a PvP(er) in which case raid’s,dungeons and DE’s shouldn’t matter to you because your not going to do them anyway.

I absolutely hate this argument with a passion. Just because you won’t or can’t do certain content doesn’t mean that it doesn’t affect you. The fact of the matter is that creating new content takes time, manpower, and money. And all of those things are limited quantity. So every second of development time that ANet spends making Raid content that only a small (but insanely vocal) fraction of the community can or will play, is a second that they could have better spent on content that everyone will play.

ATTHWSM.7840:

This “everyone should be a winner” crap is whats gonna kill this game. Eventually people will get tired of never progressing, never being challenged, and when they say this this forums response is always " OMGOSH slow down man get more skins ".

And this right here is what it comes down to. It’s not about Raids because Raids are fun, it’s about Raids because Raids are exclusive and elitist.

And “this not having Raids will kill the game!” mindset is complete BS. Being different from the norm of MMOs is the one thing that will make GW2 a success, and is a great reason to stay away from Raids and the trinity, etc.

What it comes down to is that if you really want to play a Raid based game, there are literally dozens if not hundreds of them out there already. Go play one of those. If you want to play an MMO that’s not Raid based, GW2 is really the only option.

This is a reply to you responding to me: I’m a bit confused did you read the post of the person I was replying to? He implicitly stated that he thought GW2 PvE was boring and not challenging. In which case I responded as I did that he must have been a PvP(er) and this content would not affect him. Keep in mind that Arenanet has Dev teams that work on different parts of the game. So it wouldnt be hard for them to develop both PvP and PvE content around the same time.

Astralporing.1957:

Namu.5712:

So what some people want a challenge WHY IS IT A PROBLEM FOR YOU?

I already answered that question – it enforces the concept of endgame content being limited to specific areas/activities. As a consequence, the rest of the game suffers.

In my opinion GW2 should move in exactly opposite direction (as befitting the “whole game is the endgame” motto) – making all the open world areas (especially the starting ones) more interesting, and equally interesting regardless of character level.

Even the 1-15 areas should have some content that would be interesting for 80 lev experienced players.

Dungeons and other instanced content should not be a preferred activity

So once that end-goal is completed “Making all open world areas interesting” What should Arena-net do? I’m almost certain that Arenanet has a few Dev’s disposed to working on dungeon and other instanced content. That being said the content they create would most likely not effect the team which is creating open world content. So why couldn’t Arenanet make both interesting open-world content and interesting instanced content (Raids,Dungeons,“Instanced Events”)?

Martin The Brave.8731:

Astralporing.1957:

Namu.5712:

So what some people want a challenge WHY IS IT A PROBLEM FOR YOU?

I already answered that question – it enforces the concept of endgame content being limited to specific areas/activities. As a consequence, the rest of the game suffers.

In my opinion GW2 should move in exactly opposite direction (as befitting the “whole game is the endgame” motto) – making all the open world areas (especially the starting ones) more interesting, and equally interesting regardless of character level.

Even the 1-15 areas should have some content that would be interesting for 80 lev experienced players.

Dungeons and other instanced content should not be a preferred activity

So once that end-goal is completed “Making all open world areas interesting” What should Arena-net do? I’m almost certain that Arenanet has a few Dev’s disposed to working on dungeon and other instanced content. That being said the content they create would most likely not effect the team which is creating open world content. So why couldn’t Arenanet make both interesting open-world content and interesting instanced content (Raids,Dungeons,“Instanced Events”)?

Several reasons.

The resources are limited. Spending more of them for instanced content means less of them will be used for open world pve and WvW. I’m pretty sure introducing interesting big instances with significantly improved mechanics (as compared to what we have already) would require way bigger dev team that is currently dedicated to dungeons alone (assuming there even are any dungeons-only devs and programmers).

With current mechanics, any 10+ instances would default to zerging anyway. If any mechanics would be introduced to prevent/discourage such approach, they could also be used in normal PvE (and hopefully WvW as well, though that depends on specific mechanics used). If the mass zerg approach can be somehow solved (which it should anyway – it IS a problem), then there’s no point why everything else you’d want to have from instanced raid couldn’t be placed within open PvE as an event chain.

Come to think, if Zerg problem could be solved (and as i said it definitely should be), then WvW would be exactly what you would want – playing against other players is always more demanding than anything that game AI can throw at you, and WvW is already a place that benefits significantly from good organization and leadership. Improving it so a zerg is not the only (or just preferred) solution to all problems would make that dependency on organization and planning even better.

Also, one more thing – for the “whole game is an endgame” to be true, instances simply cannot be better/more interesting/more rewarding than the rest of the game. If they are, then they become the endgame, and everything else can no longer aspire to that title. If they aren’t… then what’s the point? The number of players that would want to play them (already very small, especially in this, designed more for casuals, game) would be so low to make them dead content eventually.

Also, you seem to be mistaken on one point (the one that forms the basis of your whole reasoning) – “making the whole content interesting” can never be completed, because adding of new open content should never end.

Vargamonth.2047:

This game has a lot of mechanics that are hardly portable to a raid enviroment:

1) Conditions. Some of them, like burning or cripple, stack in time, and it’s not hard at all for many 5-man setups to have them up 100% of the time. A bigger amount of players would decrease the effectiveness of many builds, even worse, of many classes, since some of this DoTs/debuffs are built-in on them and will be taken in account for balance purposes.
Bleed has a 25 stack cap that could be increased without too much problems, but if condition damage is not really popular for 5-man dungeons, it will be even less for a raid where you can assume 25 vulnerability stacks.

As you said: could be increased, it’s not impossible.

Vargamonth.2047:

2) Boons and Healing affect a maximum of 5 men, which is exactly the number of players a dungeon or tpvp team has.
Increasing this limit would hurt the ratio of support setups, favoring selfish DPS setups, which belong to classes that are actually overused.
Keeping them as it is now would make the support pretty chaotic, specially in melee range where you hardly can measure who is going to be affected by proximity. No need to say that you hardly can make any content challenging at all if getting the right boons at the right time doesn’t even matter.
The only solution I can figure out is the raid being a sum of N 5-man groups along with party priority but … if every 5-man group is going to perform individually, why having a raid at all?

DCUO did have dedicated healers, however their setup did not allow you to heal individual players, instead heals/hots hit the whole group (of 5) or were chained. So something similar could be implemented as well.

Vargamonth.2047:

3) Some skills that create an area effect that doesn’t affect a fixed number of players or enemies would become even more powerful. Any number of players can shelter behind a Wall of Reflection / Smoke Screen / … and, since you have more players, you are going to potentially have more of this and easily have everyone invulnerable to ranged attack unless you somehow make those skills useless (hurting badly some specific classes again) or force the raid to split, which make us wonder again: why having a raid at all?

Well in certain aspects on WoW raiding you also had massive shields or bubbles coming up in which everyone had to stand, it wasn’t put up by classes however. In SWTOR there was something more similar to this: a bubble that one class could put up decreased damage by like 30% for everyone in it. Had a ~2min CD however.

Vargamonth.2047:

4) Things get better and better if we think on fights with multiple enemies.
Right now it’s usual to have every enemy on a group focusing the same target and sticking to him all the fight.
If the number of enemies is increased, the pressure over that character can be insane. It’s just impossible to evade attacks incoming from a lot of different sources.

Very true, good point. I don’t think the aggro system in GW2 at the moment it 100%. I always see the same 1 or 2 guys,well, tanking. As a ranger I never, unless the mob is so too, get attacked, or if I do its VERY rare and short.

Vargamonth.2047:

If we are using party-wide boons, he also is not going to be more supported than on a 5 man unless you try something like a “dedicated tank group”, which can oversimplification for a challenging content if works.
Some control abilities like mass blind would became terribly random if the enemies come bunched up. You will have more of them, but since the limit of targets, you will not have any control on which of them are affected. Not the best mechanic again for a challenging gameplay.

Very true also! That’s something that bothers me already in 5man content: a TON of enemies and no single CC ability, we have blinds and confusion, but that’s not really CCing. (Last fight in P2 in SE for instance with all those dredge machines, before the final boss, it’s pretty insane! Especially since they all summon Dredge as well. Without dedicated CC it’s pretty hard to do. It’s chaos.

Vargamonth.2047:

Since most melee enemies actually cleave, if they came in really high numbers, the damage on melee players can be just devastating, out of control and terribly random.
Same is going to happen with players AoE attacks and with non-piercing projectiles. You are hardly going to have any control on where your damage goes.
If you try tougher and stronger enemies in not so big numbers, just the opposite will happen: Too much control capabilities on players side.
The best solution comes again on splitting, and the same question can be asked again.

Good point again, tho I do not agree on the splitting. In older games I played sometimes splitting was needed as well, mostly during boss battles however and it actually required a lot of coordination as you had to time things still as the group carefully. It didn’t bother me at all that we split up, nor was it for a long period of time anyway.

Very good points are made by you, finally, as most really aren’t, that is also the #1 thing I am worried/skeptical about: the combat system, it would be hard to implement in stuff like raids! Indeed! Impossible? Perhaps not.

I don’t want raids, for reasons that many, including me, have articulated in these forums already. I love the game for not having raids, and I don’t think that it needs them.

I’d love to see more stuff like that put out in the open world, however, so anyone can access very difficult large-scale boss-fights.

Astralporing.1957:

Also, one more thing – for the “whole game is an endgame” to be true, instances simply cannot be better/more interesting/more rewarding than the rest of the game. If they are, then they become the endgame, and everything else can no longer aspire to that title. If they aren’t… then what’s the point? The number of players that would want to play them (already very small, especially in this, designed more for casuals, game) would be so low to make them dead content eventually.

Also, you seem to be mistaken on one point (the one that forms the basis of your whole reasoning) – “making the whole content interesting” can never be completed, because adding of new open content should never end.

Don’t fully agree here as they already have dungeons that are for level 80 only, kinda endgamey, but the rewards aren’t significant so it’s not really endgame.

Made this suggestion before: implement raid with skins, nothing fancy like gear with better stats, just skins, but also create a 5man dungeon (perhaps not the same) that gathers the same tokens, at a slight slower rate (10 man content is harder mostly and also requires more people=more difficult to get into than a 5man thing so would onlymake sense to be a little bit more rewarding) and everyone still has acces to the same rewards!

Direksone.3867:

Astralporing.1957:

Also, one more thing – for the “whole game is an endgame” to be true, instances simply cannot be better/more interesting/more rewarding than the rest of the game. If they are, then they become the endgame, and everything else can no longer aspire to that title. If they aren’t… then what’s the point? The number of players that would want to play them (already very small, especially in this, designed more for casuals, game) would be so low to make them dead content eventually.

Also, you seem to be mistaken on one point (the one that forms the basis of your whole reasoning) – “making the whole content interesting” can never be completed, because adding of new open content should never end.

Don’t fully agree here as they already have dungeons that are for level 80 only, kinda endgamey, but the rewards aren’t significant so it’s not really endgame.

Oh, i agree – i said already that the game is not quite at that point yet and requires rebalancing. Part of those rebalancing would necessarily be less emphasis on dungeons in the future.

Also, “no more rewarding” is not only no more fractal-type blunders with ascended eq, but also means “no better drop chances” as well. Restricted skins are okay, as long as they are alternate skins – not something that is visually just better than everything else.
(Hint: obsidian armor from GW1 was actually not that good as far as aestethics went)

Astralporing.1957:

Direksone.3867:

Astralporing.1957:

Also, one more thing – for the “whole game is an endgame” to be true, instances simply cannot be better/more interesting/more rewarding than the rest of the game. If they are, then they become the endgame, and everything else can no longer aspire to that title. If they aren’t… then what’s the point? The number of players that would want to play them (already very small, especially in this, designed more for casuals, game) would be so low to make them dead content eventually.

Also, you seem to be mistaken on one point (the one that forms the basis of your whole reasoning) – “making the whole content interesting” can never be completed, because adding of new open content should never end.

Don’t fully agree here as they already have dungeons that are for level 80 only, kinda endgamey, but the rewards aren’t significant so it’s not really endgame.

Oh, i agree – i said already that the game is not quite at that point yet and requires rebalancing. Part of those rebalancing would necessarily be less emphasis on dungeons in the future.

Also, “no more rewarding” is not only no more fractal-type blunders with ascended eq, but also means “no better drop chances” as well. Restricted skins are okay, as long as they are alternate skins – not something that is visually just better than everything else.
(Hint: obsidian armor from GW1 was actually not that good as far as aestethics went)

Agreed. Not really a fan of Ascended gear either, i cba to farm Agony crap just for fractals, which i barely do anyway.

Thing is: i like dungeons, but thats also because thats almost all there is to do. I hunt some dragons now and then, but that’s it. Yea I level alts, but on my main man there’s barely anything to do “GET A LEGENDARY”. Nope. Can’t use any on my engi that I find decent looking. Not a big PvPer either nor WvW, so that leaves PvE; and that’s where the issue is: what is there to do? Not much. I hope tomorrow brings more epicness to the table!

Astralporing.1957:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Astralporing.1957:

Namu.5712:

So what some people want a challenge WHY IS IT A PROBLEM FOR YOU?

I already answered that question – it enforces the concept of endgame content being limited to specific areas/activities. As a consequence, the rest of the game suffers.

In my opinion GW2 should move in exactly opposite direction (as befitting the “whole game is the endgame” motto) – making all the open world areas (especially the starting ones) more interesting, and equally interesting regardless of character level.

Even the 1-15 areas should have some content that would be interesting for 80 lev experienced players.

Dungeons and other instanced content should not be a preferred activity

So once that end-goal is completed “Making all open world areas interesting” What should Arena-net do? I’m almost certain that Arenanet has a few Dev’s disposed to working on dungeon and other instanced content. That being said the content they create would most likely not effect the team which is creating open world content. So why couldn’t Arenanet make both interesting open-world content and interesting instanced content (Raids,Dungeons,“Instanced Events”)?

Several reasons.

The resources are limited. Spending more of them for instanced content means less of them will be used for open world pve and WvW. I’m pretty sure introducing interesting big instances with significantly improved mechanics (as compared to what we have already) would require way bigger dev team that is currently dedicated to dungeons alone (assuming there even are any dungeons-only devs and programmers).

With current mechanics, any 10+ instances would default to zerging anyway. If any mechanics would be introduced to prevent/discourage such approach, they could also be used in normal PvE (and hopefully WvW as well, though that depends on specific mechanics used). If the mass zerg approach can be somehow solved (which it should anyway – it IS a problem), then there’s no point why everything else you’d want to have from instanced raid couldn’t be placed within open PvE as an event chain.

Come to think, if Zerg problem could be solved (and as i said it definitely should be), then WvW would be exactly what you would want – playing against other players is always more demanding than anything that game AI can throw at you, and WvW is already a place that benefits significantly from good organization and leadership. Improving it so a zerg is not the only (or just preferred) solution to all problems would make that dependency on organization and planning even better.

Also, one more thing – for the “whole game is an endgame” to be true, instances simply cannot be better/more interesting/more rewarding than the rest of the game. If they are, then they become the endgame, and everything else can no longer aspire to that title. If they aren’t… then what’s the point? The number of players that would want to play them (already very small, especially in this, designed more for casuals, game) would be so low to make them dead content eventually.

Also, you seem to be mistaken on one point (the one that forms the basis of your whole reasoning) – “making the whole content interesting” can never be completed, because adding of new open content should never end.

“The resources are limited. Spending more of them for instanced content means less of them will be used for open world pve and WvW. " That applies to any content generated outside of the scoop of PvE and WvW. Should this somehow dissuade Arenanet from making content outside of these categories? You talked about WvW being somewhat more demanding. I’d have to disagree on the simple point that getting into groups or battles in WvW is not guaranteed what so ever. My server (SBI) has for the past couple of hours has not been able to hold one keep in Eternal Battleground. And their has been little to no attempt to take any of them, WvW is not filler content for large scaled instanced PvE content it will never be.

I’d love to see the Dev’s work on open world content I have no quarrels about that. But open world PvE content will mostly be unorganized and zergy because it’s in their nature to be that way. Instanced content will be tailored specifically like in most games to be the exact opposite of this. And by no means does instance content such as raids have to be the premier endgame. It would fall right in line with open world pve,WvW and Dungeons.

“Also, you seem to be mistaken on one point (the one that forms the basis of your whole reasoning) – “making the whole content interesting” can never be completed, because adding of new open content should never end" I was quoting you, also creating instanced content such as dungeons should never end.

Namu.5712:

Thats not true because everyone knows they have teams working on several things at once. So working on raid content would likely not effect the WvW and pvpers content, so his argument was valid.

It might not effect WvW or pvp content, but it will effect PVE content. There are a limited amount of people able to work on new content and a limited amount of time to work on new content. Any amount of time and manpower spent on Raid content, would be better spent on other content that is readily available to everyone – and Raid content is not readily available to everyone due to the logistical problems of getting 15-20+ other people with individual schedules together for extended periods.

Whose to say they wouldn’t bring in a small team to specifically work on raid content as well?

They could, I suppose. But any new employees cost additional money that likely isn’t in the budget , or they would have been hired already, and any additional developers would be better used making content for everyone, not just Raiders.

I hate arguments that dismiss logic.

Then why are you using them?

And the game doesn’t have to be raid based to have raids, stop thinking black and white terms.

They don’t necessarily have to be Raid based, but they always inevitably end up being Raid based, because of time, money, and man power issues. New Raids take a massive amount of development. Because of limited resources, everyone minute spent on developing Raids is a minute not used developing the rest of the PVE world.

So what some people want a challenge WHY IS IT A PROBLEM FOR YOU?

You’re literally responding to a post where I laid out exactly why it’s a problem for me. I don’t like Raiding. I don’t find it enjoyable. A large part of the reason that I bought GW2 is because of ANET’s commitment to not including exlusivist content like Raiding. Adding in Raiding at this point would be another bait-and-switch (the other being vertical progression), and that would be enough for me to give up on the game.

Also, for the people that want Raiding – Why not ask for more, and more advanced form of Group DEs and World Dragon-esque fights instead? They’re the dynamic, large group content that you want, while still being the all inclusive, easily accessible content that I want. The only reason I can think of is pure elitism – specifically wanting a system of haves and have-nots so you can lord your Raider status over other people.

Martin The Brave.8731:

Because open world content is “Open” meaning it can be zerged.

And you think a 15 or 25 person Raid will be any different?

Secondly they are event’s were you usually kill one large boss and possibly it’s minions. It’s not a series of bosses which each have there own mechanics.

Usually, but not always. ANET could easily implement a big event chain that involves multiple bosses with unique mechanics. The only differences is that the amount of people that are participating in the fight against the “boss” will be less controlled, which is where the scaling mechanic that’s already in the game comes into play. If challenge is what you’re after, you should be asking for ANET to make that scaling harsher in high level areas.

Lastly large events are short and have little or no communication given the number of players. Even if someone is talking in map chat who even bothers to listen to them?

These are legitimate problems, but they’re self fixing problems as far as I’m concerned. If ANET makes scaling harsher and makes large scale Dynamic Events actually dynamic so that the events can’t be completed without more advanced communication, then people will start using more advanced communication to complete them. Either way, this shouldn’t be a problem at all for people that want Raids, since any large (15-25 people) group that you would have brought to a raid could just as easily (or even more easily since you can potentially bring more) bring those people to the DE.

Another couple of questions for the pro-Raid crowd:

If any implemented Raids had absolutely no rewards – no drops off monsters, no big (or small) treasure chests, nothings at all – would you still play them?

What if the rewards per minute played in the Raids are no better than the the average rewards per minute played in open world PVE like ORR? Would you still play them?

Martin The Brave.8731:

“Also, for the people that want Raiding – Why not ask for more, and more advanced form of Group DEs and World Dragon-esque fights instead?” Because open world content is “Open” meaning it can be zerged. Secondly they are event’s were you usually kill one large boss and possibly it’s minions. It’s not a series of bosses which each have there own mechanics. Lastly large events are short and have little or no communication given the number of players. Even if someone is talking in map chat who even bothers to listen to them?

Raiding is a more advanced form of dungeons.

We already have open world DE’s, these events btw can’t even be failed, which sucks the fun out of it, having a zerg helping you also sucks the fun out of it. Not everyone is a winner, sorry and with there being no top-tier bottom-tier, players have nothing to push for because they have it all right out the gate. Do any of you remember the first time you seen something endgame? You are in awe of the awesomeness, you wanna do what it takes to get that. In this game the things that make you jelly are also the worst implemented items in the kittening world. Anets has zero creativity when it comes to fun.

No raiding is like a dead end minimum wage job.

Nappychappy.7046:

Martin The Brave.8731:

“Also, for the people that want Raiding – Why not ask for more, and more advanced form of Group DEs and World Dragon-esque fights instead?” Because open world content is “Open” meaning it can be zerged. Secondly they are event’s were you usually kill one large boss and possibly it’s minions. It’s not a series of bosses which each have there own mechanics. Lastly large events are short and have little or no communication given the number of players. Even if someone is talking in map chat who even bothers to listen to them?

Raiding is a more advanced form of dungeons.

We already have open world DE’s, these events btw can’t even be failed, which sucks the fun out of it, having a zerg helping you also sucks the fun out of it. Not everyone is a winner, sorry and with there being no top-tier bottom-tier, players have nothing to push for because they have it all right out the gate. Do any of you remember the first time you seen something endgame? You are in awe of the awesomeness, you wanna do what it takes to get that. In this game the things that make you jelly are also the worst implemented items in the kittening world. Anets has zero creativity when it comes to fun.

No raiding is like a dead end minimum wage job.

I’m not sure if your really responding to me, I think you are responding to quote in the first part of my comment. As far as raiding, I agree with alot of people on this thread it should be implemented. But I don’t think having a gear-treadmill is necessary for it to be successful. Thing’s such as fancy skins,precursors, and rare materials could easily be something to fill the role of a traditional “Gear Treadmill”. I understand some people don’t want that but at the end of the day it’s up to Arenanet to decide what they’ll implement to make raiding fun.

Martin The Brave.8731:

Nappychappy.7046:

Martin The Brave.8731:

“Also, for the people that want Raiding – Why not ask for more, and more advanced form of Group DEs and World Dragon-esque fights instead?” Because open world content is “Open” meaning it can be zerged. Secondly they are event’s were you usually kill one large boss and possibly it’s minions. It’s not a series of bosses which each have there own mechanics. Lastly large events are short and have little or no communication given the number of players. Even if someone is talking in map chat who even bothers to listen to them?

Raiding is a more advanced form of dungeons.

We already have open world DE’s, these events btw can’t even be failed, which sucks the fun out of it, having a zerg helping you also sucks the fun out of it. Not everyone is a winner, sorry and with there being no top-tier bottom-tier, players have nothing to push for because they have it all right out the gate. Do any of you remember the first time you seen something endgame? You are in awe of the awesomeness, you wanna do what it takes to get that. In this game the things that make you jelly are also the worst implemented items in the kittening world. Anets has zero creativity when it comes to fun.

No raiding is like a dead end minimum wage job.

I’m not sure if your really responding to me, I think you are responding to quote in the first part of my comment. As far as raiding, I agree with alot of people on this thread it should be implemented. But I don’t think having a gear-treadmill is necessary for it to be successful. Thing’s such as fancy skins,precursors, and rare materials could easily be something to fill the role of a traditional “Gear Treadmill”. I understand some people don’t want that but at the end of the day it’s up to Arenanet to decide what they’ll implement to make raiding fun.

I am a sloppy quote’r…

Stat treadmill isn’t required, but reward tread is. Why would I play this game over watching TV? Time is the commodity here, what is anet going to do to compete for it?

This ‘limited resources’ argument is silly. It’s an invented excuse with no actual backing in proof or reality. This game has teams working on different things all the time. One for WvW, One for sPvP, One for Dungeons etc. The Idea that having raids would somehow sap these things is silly. Likely they would expand staff and build a team for balancing that. Employee numbers are not some fixed finite thing that could never be changed.

Yes, guilds showing off Awesome gear they got for fighting something crazy hard through teamwork and coordination is awesome and should be encouraged in this game. That’s what Legendaries were supposed to be, but arent.

Raid-like content (read: bigger harder dungeons for those who want it) does not nead to take anything from the game. Adding content is not taking from you. That’s like QQing that the quaggan backpack took time away from making you an awesome staff skin. This game is for everyone, and adding content that caters to diverse interests only strengthens the game, not weaken it.

as Ive said before…They can put in large group raids and just call them Missions like GW1 had….there you go…the word “raid” wont be in the game then which seems to be the only part that makes fan boys cry is the actual word “raid”

Vae Victus.3678

And you think a 15 or 25 person Raid will be any different?

Yes, Instanced content will always be tailored to the specific amount of people in the instanced Area. Why does it even have to be 15-25 man, Why couldn’t it be 8-12?

Vae Victus.3678

Usually, but not always. ANET could easily implement a big event chain that involves multiple bosses with unique mechanics.

I find that hard to believe Arenanet would run into significant problems with graphical and internet connectivity issue’s or have you forgotten The lost shore event? Secondly how exactly would arenanet implement more than one large scaled boss in a non instanced area?

Vae Victus.3678

If ANET makes scaling harsher and makes large scale Dynamic Events actually dynamic so that the events can’t be completed without more advanced communication, then people will start using more advanced communication to complete them.

If they do that they Arenanet completely exclude the “casual” and non “elitist” players that everyone is trying to protect. And yet it will still suffer from the “Zerg”. What is stopping 70 players from rushing the DE, Just like all the large scaled events their will be very little communication besides “TY” and “NP”.

Vae Victus.3678

If any implemented Raids had absolutely no rewards – no drops off monsters, no big (or small) treasure chests, nothings at all – would you still play them?
What if the rewards per minute played in the Raids are no better than the the average rewards per minute played in open world PVE like ORR? Would you still play them?

1. Yes, as long as I have a few guildies or a group of friends, but not with a PUG. But would you DE’s or even play the game if it didn’t reward you? It’s really a silly question to ask as this game is suppose to be rewarding.

2. Yes, Most of us are not asking for extraordinary rewards. Although many have suggested Skins,Mats,Precursors,Titles,Achievements,Laurels and Rare Dyes as a form of reward.

Nappychappy.7046:

I am a sloppy quote’r…

Stat treadmill isn’t required, but reward tread is. Why would I play this game over watching TV? Time is the commodity here, what is anet going to do to compete for it?

Because you find it fun in and of itself…

It’s the same reason that I can still sit down and play Super Mario Brothers to this day, despite already having beaten it multiple times, and despite it having no gear treadmill (or gear for that matter) at all. Because I find the actual gameplay fun.

If your only sense of satisfaction and enjoyment from playing MMOs is through addictive, carrot on a stick, reward based gameplay, then I highly suggest that you consider finding a new game (or better yet, a new hobby, that’s not healthy) because ANET, from the very beginning, as stated that their goal with this game is to get away from that. Their goal is to get people to play and enjoy the content because it’s inherently fun and enjoyable, not because they have to to get that carrot, like my Mario example. Any gear is meant to be an extra cherry on top of the fun you’re already having just playing the game, and is not supposed to be strictly necessary.

Martin The Brave.8731:

Yes, Instanced content will always be tailored to the specific amount of people in the instanced Area. Why does it even have to be 15-25 man, Why couldn’t it be 8-12?

Better yet, why can’t it be 5 man?

I find that hard to believe Arenanet would run into significant problems with graphical and internet connectivity issue’s or have you forgotten The lost shore event?

I’m going to assume you mean “wouldn’t run into significant…” In which case, I’d hope people that they’ve learned from lost shore and have improved and will continue to improve those limitations.

Secondly how exactly would arenanet implement more than one large scaled boss in a non instanced area?

The same way that they implement anything in a dynamic event. They have some certain pre-conditions in one dynamic event, those conditions are met, then the boss pops up. Once that boss is defeated, then another dyamic event in the chain pops up with pre-conditions, etc.

If they do that they Arenanet completely exclude the “casual” and non “elitist” players that everyone is trying to protect.

Not necessarily since it’s open to anyone that walks by. In my mind, the biggest thing that makes Raid content exclusive to a certain small fraction of the community isn’t the difficulty, because frankly most Raids that I have played aren’t very difficult either, but rather the logistical problems of getting a large group of people together once, or multiple times, per week for multiple hours is not feasible to a large fraction of the community.

As far as difficulty goes, I’d also say that content should be accessible to everyone, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be completable by everyone, which is why I have zero problem with PvP, which most people are terrible at.

And yet it will still suffer from the “Zerg”. What is stopping 70 players from rushing the DE, Just like all the large scaled events their will be very little communication besides “TY” and “NP”.

The same thing that would stop the “zerg” in any instanced Raid – they would have to make the DE boss dynamic enough that simply zerging wouldn’t work. It’s a problem that exists in the game in general, not just in my DE examples, and it’s a problem that would exist in any Raid content, too.

1. Yes, as long as I have a few guildies or a group of friends, but not with a PUG. But would you DE’s or even play the game if it didn’t reward you? It’s really a silly question to ask as this game is suppose to be rewarding.

Yes, because I find them fun. The ones that I don’t find fun, I don’t do (just like Raids). The fun that you have playing the game is supposed to be the reward. And that’s why I asked the question. If you look at it and can honestly say “No, I wouldn’t do this without some type of additional reward.” Then I have to ask why you even want Raids at all? If the only sense of enjoyment comes from the rewards gained, then why not ask for those rewards from some type of content that you do enjoy independent of rewards?

2. Yes, Most of us are not asking for extraordinary rewards. Although many have suggested Skins,Mats,Precursors,Titles,Achievements,Laurels and Rare Dyes as a form of reward.

Which makes me ask another question: Why do you think that you, as Raiders, should get special treatment for playing Raid content?

Typing all this up, I though of another reason that I’m firmly against Raids (and instances in general) – they separate the community. We’ve seen it ever since the Fractal of the Mists update came into effect. With Fractals, an instance, being the only place to get the best gear in the game, the open world PVE has become a complete ghost town. It’s also a big reason that I’m against any content having better rewards than any other content, because, unfortunately, people tend to play content that’s more tangibly rewarding even if it’s less fun to them than other content. Every MMO that I’ve played as a heavily instanced-based endgame, and that’s the biggest contributing factor that’s lead to every MMO I’ve played having a completely dead open world PVE at max level. Having the “Raid” content be all open world Meta DE-based would go a long way to filling up the world again.

Sigh… this game. People that dont want endgame cry and scream about it, when it doesnt affect you in anyway. Guess what? Your bad at the game, you lack mechanical knowledge of what works where, or youd rather do other things inside this great game…. THEN DONT RAID. It doesnt affect you either way, so stop. I hardcore raided for 20 hours a week in EQ2, and guess what? There were TONS of people that never raided, didnt care, and it all worked out. This game can do the same thing. You wanna run dungeons? Cool go do that. You wanna craft? Go do it. You want a challenge with rewards that reflect that challenge? Go raid. Its that easy.

Wretchedscar.4796:

Likely they would expand staff and build a team for balancing that. Employee numbers are not some fixed finite thing that could never be changed.

Employee numbers may not be a strictly finite thing (though talented programmers are certainly a limited commodity), but the money in the budget used to hire staff is absolutely finite.

1) If there was additional budget available for a more developmental staff, they would have already been hired – this is a massive game constantly in need of further development.

2) Any additional staff that might be hired for Raid content would be better used making content for everybody – not just Raiders.

That’s like QQing that the quaggan backpack took time away from making you an awesome staff skin.

It does. Unfortunately, the quaggan backpack is a necessary developmental evil, since they’re selling for additional money. If they made Raid content a cash shop thing, it would be easier so swallow for me, because I know that the content is paying for itself through cash shop sales and not being taken away from any other area. though I still wouldn’t like how it splinters the community, and I still wouldn’t like how its addition directly contradicts a selling point made by ANet pre-release.

ATTHWSM.7840:

Sigh… this game. People that dont want endgame cry and scream about it, when it doesnt affect you in anyway.

Read my posts, superstar.

Vae Victus.3678:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Yes, Instanced content will always be tailored to the specific amount of people in the instanced Area. Why does it even have to be 15-25 man, Why couldn’t it be 8-12?

Better yet, why can’t it be 5 man?

I find that hard to believe Arenanet would run into significant problems with graphical and internet connectivity issue’s or have you forgotten The lost shore event?

I’m going to assume you mean “wouldn’t run into significant…” In which case, I’d hope people that they’ve learned from lost shore and have improved and will continue to improve those limitations.

Secondly how exactly would arenanet implement more than one large scaled boss in a non instanced area?

The same way that they implement anything in a dynamic event. They have some certain pre-conditions in one dynamic event, those conditions are met, then the boss pops up. Once that boss is defeated, then another dyamic event in the chain pops up with pre-conditions, etc.

If they do that they Arenanet completely exclude the “casual” and non “elitist” players that everyone is trying to protect.

Not necessarily since it’s open to anyone that walks by. In my mind, the biggest thing that makes Raid content exclusive to a certain small fraction of the community isn’t the difficulty, because frankly most Raids that I have played aren’t very difficult either, but rather the logistical problems of getting a large group of people together once, or multiple times, per week for multiple hours is not feasible to a large fraction of the community.

As far as difficulty goes, I’d also say that content should be accessible to everyone, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be completable by everyone, which is why I have zero problem with PvP, which most people are terrible at.

And yet it will still suffer from the “Zerg”. What is stopping 70 players from rushing the DE, Just like all the large scaled events their will be very little communication besides “TY” and “NP”.

The same thing that would stop the “zerg” in any instanced Raid – they would have to make the DE boss dynamic enough that simply zerging wouldn’t work. It’s a problem that exists in the game in general, not just in my DE examples, and it’s a problem that would exist in any Raid content, too.

1. Yes, as long as I have a few guildies or a group of friends, but not with a PUG. But would you DE’s or even play the game if it didn’t reward you? It’s really a silly question to ask as this game is suppose to be rewarding.

Yes, because I find them fun. The ones that I don’t find fun, I don’t do (just like Raids). The fun that you have playing the game is supposed to be the reward. And that’s why I asked the question. If you look at it and can honestly say “No, I wouldn’t do this without some type of additional reward.” Then I have to ask why you even want Raids at all? If the only sense of enjoyment comes from the rewards gained, then why not ask for those rewards from some type of content that you do enjoy independent of rewards?

2. Yes, Most of us are not asking for extraordinary rewards. Although many have suggested Skins,Mats,Precursors,Titles,Achievements,Laurels and Rare Dyes as a form of reward.

Which makes me ask another question: Why do you think that you, as Raiders, should get special treatment for playing Raid content?

Typing all this up, I though of another reason that I’m firmly against Raids (and instances in general) – they separate the community. We’ve seen it ever since the Fractal of the Mists update came into effect. With Fractals, an instance, being the only place to get the best gear in the game, the open world PVE has become a complete ghost town. It’s also a big reason that I’m against any content having better rewards than any other content, because, unfortunately, people tend to play content that’s more tangibly rewarding even if it’s less fun to them than other content. Every MMO that I’ve played as a heavily instanced-based endgame, and that’s the biggest contributing factor that’s lead to every MMO I’ve played having a completely dead open world PVE at max level. Having the “Raid” content be all open world Meta DE-based would go a long way to filling up the world again.

I agree with a lot of what you say. However get it right. FotM is the best gear for…. FotM. It in no way affects the rest of the game, which is why its stupid. Im gonna grind for items that are EXACTLY the same as what I have except they have a buff that makes me live longer in THAT ONE ZONE? Thats not progression, thats moronic. GW2 is gonna harcore fail because of stuff like this, people arent dumb.

Vae Victus.3678:

Wretchedscar.4796:

That’s like QQing that the quaggan backpack took time away from making you an awesome staff skin.

It does. Unfortunately, the quaggan backpack is a necessary developmental evil, since they’re selling for additional money. If they made Raid content a cash shop thing, it would be easier so swallow for me, because I know that the content is paying for itself through cash shop sales and not being taken away from any other area. though I still wouldn’t like how it splinters the community, and I still wouldn’t like how its addition directly contradicts a selling point made by ANet pre-release.

If this is your outlook on it, then your argument is simply ‘if they spend time on something I don’t want, It shouldn’t be in the game. It’s selfish.

Furthermore that chain of logic suggests that everything should be cash shop. Dungeons, WvW, FOTM. Having harder difficulty content that requires coordination between a set number of people in no way breaks any promises. I dont care how much you scour every word and nuance someone at ANet said so that you hear what you want to. Adding new and different content will happen. I likley wont like some of it, but I’m not gonna tell people they shouldn’t have it. Community changes with everything. Keeping the game as is forever is simply not realistic.

ATTHWSM.7840:

I agree with a lot of what you say. However get it right. FotM is the best gear for…. FotM.

Not really true. Ascended gear is more powerful than exotic gear. It’s not a huge difference on an individual basis, but it adds up.

Hopefully this upcoming update will help.

It in no way affects the rest of the game, which is why its stupid. Im gonna grind for items that are EXACTLY the same as what I have except they have a buff that makes me live longer in THAT ONE ZONE?

They’re not exactly the same, though. The stats are (slightly) higher.

Found this with a quick google search:

Ascended – Red Ring of Death

Power: 104
Precision: 69
Crit dmg: +8%

Exotic – Berserker Ring + Exquisite Ruby

Power: 92
Precision: 63
Crit Dmg: +6%

Thats not progression, thats moronic. GW2 is gonna harcore fail because of stuff like this, people arent dumb.

Plenty of games that do have Raiding and vertical progression have failed. GW2 success or failure at this point has very little to do with the addition of Raiding. And I’d argue that the addition of Raiding would make the game more likely to fail. Any push towards MMO status quo (which Raiding would be) is one less reason to play this game vs playing WoW (or any other of the army of near identical MMOs out there). GW2’s unique choices (no trinity, no raiding, etc) is what makes it stand out in the giant sea of MMOs, and standing out is the only way to succeed. Not adding Raiding (or other MMO staples) might alienate some customers who might otherwise play GW2, but adding Raiding will also alienate customers. So, in my mind, it comes down to people who want Raiding having dozens, if not hundreds, of other options. While people who don’t like Raiding have no other options.

So if you like some aspects of GW2 and not others (like lack of Raiding), instead of asking for GW2 to change to be more like every other MMO out there, why not go to another MMO that has Raiding (or whatever) and try to get them to be more like GW2? Try to advance the genre a little bit instead of the stagnant, status quo, WoW-clone crap that so many companies continue to make.

Wretchedscar.4796:

If this is your outlook on it, then your argument is simply ‘if they spend time on something I don’t want, It shouldn’t be in the game. It’s selfish.

It’s a matter of “bang for your buck.” Spending developmental time and thinks that a lot of people will play and enjoy (expanding open world PVE) vs spending time on something that relatively few people will play and enjoy (Raiding).

Keeping the game as is forever is simply not realistic.

Why not? Going back to my Super Mario Brothers example, that game is exactly the same now as it was when it was made in 1985, and yet despite not changing, it’s something that can still be played and enjoyed for what it is.

Not on an mmo it cannot.

:Vae Victus.3678

Better yet, why can’t it be 5 man?

Because then it would not be Large scaled instanced content(Raid). I thought that was the whole point of this discussion. Why would you even say that you already said that you didn’t like instanced content anyway? Why wouldnt you just say get rid of dungeons?

:Vae Victus.3678

I’m going to assume you mean “wouldn’t run into significant…” In which case, I’d hope people that they’ve learned from lost shore and have improved and will continue to improve those limitations.

You assume wrong, as Arenanet has run into significant problems in the past with graphical and internet connection issues in the pass. Including Ending BWE and The Lost Shore update.

:Vae Victus.3678

Not necessarily since it’s open to anyone that walks by. In my mind, the biggest thing that makes Raid content exclusive to a certain small fraction of the community isn’t the difficulty, because frankly most Raids that I have played aren’t very difficult either, but rather the logistical problems of getting a large group of people together once, or multiple times, per week for multiple hours is not feasible to a large fraction of the community.

So you are suggesting content that will be challenging but easy enough to the casual market to complete? You go on to state that “Raids” will be hard to form. So what? Most of the content in this game including smaller open world events is hard to group up for.

:Vae Victus.3678

The same thing that would stop the “zerg” in any instanced Raid – they would have to make the DE boss dynamic enough that simply zerging wouldn’t work. It’s a problem that exists in the game in general, not just in my DE examples, and it’s a problem that would exist in any Raid content, too.

No, Instanced area’s only allow a certain amount of people into the area. That being said given the level of difficulty for that Instance (on par with dungeons like Arah) it would be almost impossible to Zerg. However DE’s can allow as much players as the zone allows and only scale to a specific amount probably much less than the zone’s limit.

:Vae Victus.3678

Then I have to ask why you even want Raids at all?

For the same reason you like playing the game because it’s “Fun”. And that “Fun” only truly “Fun” when its not being intruded on by a large zerg. It also give me and my guild something to do when we want to have well organized instanced fun. Like we did in Guildwars 1.

:Vae Victus.3678

Which makes me ask another question: Why do you think that you, as Raiders, should get special treatment for playing Raid content?

We aren’t asking for special treatment or at least I am not. I just want what we had in GW1 fun instanced content larger than 5-man. So at least my friends and guildies can enjoy organized content with each other.

:Vae Victus.3678

I though of another reason that I’m firmly against Raids (and instances in general) – they separate the community.

Guildwars 1 an almost completely instanced game had a strong community. And yet even casual players loved the game. If you didnt like Urgoz,FoW and The deep you simply didnt do them, but you weren’t penalized for it.

As one of the more vocal “anti-vertical progression”, ex-GW1 players, I’m actually surprised at the reaction this is getting. Honestly, I think its coming down to the mistake these players make in calling it a “raid”. If this suggestion had been “Increase group sizes to be comparable to the 8 man GW1 groups” it would have been received with much praise.

Folks are looking at this too much from a WoW perspective, which is greatly the fault of Anet for defaulting to the WoW/EQ standard party size to begin with and not the GW1 standard party size (for that matter, they defaulted to the WoW everything for this game and left a lot of GW1 standards in the dust…). When someone said “raid”, no one remembers the GW1 large group runs. No, everyone’s mind immediately drifts towards WoW raids like MC and Naax. (sorry, havent played WoW in a long time so my raid knowledge of the game is a bit… dated).

We regularly ran 8 people groups in GW1… I don’t see why something similar should be doomed to failure in this game. Especially if it is just 1 path to receiving the same rewards. So long as GW2 keeps with its promise that no one will ever be pidgeonholed again into 1 style of play by allowing exclusive rewards only for those players, I see no reason why the idea of “raids” in this game should be thrown to the wayside.

Tolmos.8395:

As one of the more vocal “anti-vertical progression”, ex-GW1 players, I’m actually surprised at the reaction this is getting. Honestly, I think its coming down to the mistake these players make in calling it a “raid”. If this suggestion had been “Increase group sizes to be comparable to the 8 man GW1 groups” it would have been received with much praise.

Folks are looking at this too much from a WoW perspective, which is greatly the fault of Anet for defaulting to the WoW/EQ standard party size to begin with and not the GW1 standard party size (for that matter, they defaulted to the WoW everything for this game and left a lot of GW1 standards in the dust…). When someone said “raid”, no one remembers the GW1 large group runs. No, everyone’s mind immediately drifts towards WoW raids like MC and Naax. (sorry, havent played WoW in a long time so my raid knowledge of the game is a bit… dated).

We regularly ran 8 people groups in GW1… I don’t see why something similar should be doomed to failure in this game. Especially if it is just 1 path to receiving the same rewards. So long as GW2 keeps with its promise that no one will ever be pidgeonholed again into 1 style of play by allowing exclusive rewards only for those players, I see no reason why the idea of “raids” in this game should be thrown to the wayside.

Agreed, there seems to be a negative stigma when talking about “Raid’s”, And this is why I have mostly referred to it as “Large grouped instanced content”. As a GW1 Vet myself I want to see these instance’s because it’s what brought me to play Guildwars 1 basically since launch. Although I would like to see an increased group size such as the 8 or 12 in GW1. I think 10 is a realistic goal for this game as it is double the party size and can be pretty well balanced.

Martin The Brave.8731:

Agreed, there seems to be a negative stigma when talking about “Raid’s”, And this is why I have mostly referred to it as “Large grouped instanced content”. As a GW1 Vet myself I want to see these instance’s because it’s what brought me to play Guildwars 1 basically since launch. Although I would like to see an increased group size such as the 8 or 12 in GW1. I think 10 is a realistic goal for this game as it is double the party size and can be pretty well balanced.

The general anti-raid argument, from what I understand, is that raids usually have their own gear progression, and offer the best gear in the games they are in. This is true, but if large grouped instanced content was introduced in Guild Wars 2, it would make sense to have the exact same rewards (plus maybe different skins and some titles) as any other part of the game.

I believe most people wouldn’t have a problem with that.

maddoctor.2738:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Agreed, there seems to be a negative stigma when talking about “Raid’s”, And this is why I have mostly referred to it as “Large grouped instanced content”. As a GW1 Vet myself I want to see these instance’s because it’s what brought me to play Guildwars 1 basically since launch. Although I would like to see an increased group size such as the 8 or 12 in GW1. I think 10 is a realistic goal for this game as it is double the party size and can be pretty well balanced.

The general anti-raid argument, from what I understand, is that raids usually have their own gear progression, and offer the best gear in the games they are in. This is true, but if large grouped instanced content was introduced in Guild Wars 2, it would make sense to have the exact same rewards (plus maybe different skins and some titles) as any other part of the game.

I believe most people wouldn’t have a problem with that.

I think this too.
If the rule “play your way” is respected, they can add what they can add all the challenges they want to the game.

maddoctor.2738:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Agreed, there seems to be a negative stigma when talking about “Raid’s”, And this is why I have mostly referred to it as “Large grouped instanced content”. As a GW1 Vet myself I want to see these instance’s because it’s what brought me to play Guildwars 1 basically since launch. Although I would like to see an increased group size such as the 8 or 12 in GW1. I think 10 is a realistic goal for this game as it is double the party size and can be pretty well balanced.

The general anti-raid argument, from what I understand, is that raids usually have their own gear progression, and offer the best gear in the games they are in. This is true, but if large grouped instanced content was introduced in Guild Wars 2, it would make sense to have the exact same rewards (plus maybe different skins and some titles) as any other part of the game.

I believe most people wouldn’t have a problem with that.

Yes, that wouldn’t be a problem. Of course, if purely economical reason to play Raids would be eliminated, almost noone would play them. So, why should anet waste precious developer resources on content that would be used by a fraction of a percent of the community, if at all?

Astralporing.1957:

Yes, that wouldn’t be a problem. Of course, if purely economical reason to play Raids would be eliminated, almost noone would play them. So, why should anet waste precious developer resources on content that would be used by a fraction of a percent of the community, if at all?

Why would it be used by a fraction of the community? There are lots of people who want a challenge and there can’t be challenge in Open World content.

I said it should have no exclusive gear, that doesn’t mean the gear from challenging content should have the same drop rates as anywhere else. Just like dungeons offer the same gear stat-wise, but you can buy any gear you want with tokens, instead of depending solely on your luck. Same could be done with any large scale instanced group content really.

Remove portion of RNG and replace it with challenge, lots of people will try it then.

Astralporing.1957

Yes, that wouldn’t be a problem. Of course, if purely economical reason to play Raids would be eliminated, almost noone would play them. So, why should anet waste precious developer resources on content that would be used by a fraction of a percent of the community, if at all?

How do you know what percentage of players would actually play and enjoy this content? And why would Arenanet strip “Raids” of any economical gain? If they did the same for Dungeons or Meta Events I bet you alot of people wouldn’t do them. You don’t have to strip “Raids” of any beneficial rewards like: Skin’s or Mats. Because they did’nt do that in Guildwars 1 and it worked out fine.

As an MMO, Guild Wars 2 pales in features that bring a guild together to play and overcome obstacles and progress as a team. You know, the core stuff an MMO is supposed to be good at.

There is no other single feature they could add than raids that would assure a massive population injection combined with long-term repeat play.

It’s coming.

Zeldain.5710:

As an MMO, Guild Wars 2 pales in features that bring a guild together to play and overcome obstacles and progress as a team. You know, the core stuff an MMO is supposed to be good at.

There is no other single feature they could add than raids that would assure a massive population injection combined with long-term repeat play.

It’s coming.

Well keep in mind that Arenanet are implementing “Guild Mission’s”, but I doubt they’ll be a practical way for Guild’s to get true cohesion in their play style. Ofcourse this remains to be seen, Hopefully we will see more of a interest in Instance’s as the game progresses.

Zeldain.5710:

As an MMO, Guild Wars 2 pales in features that bring a guild together to play and overcome obstacles and progress as a team. You know, the core stuff an MMO is supposed to be good at.

Really?

That whole WvW thing of taking over keeps/towers/forts etc. from an enemy that can bring thought and common sense to the battle, can’t bring guilds together? Those aren’t obstacles? And can’t let your guild progress as a team?

hmm…

I’d say most MMOs pale in comparison by that standard alone.

tic.7425:

Zeldain.5710:

As an MMO, Guild Wars 2 pales in features that bring a guild together to play and overcome obstacles and progress as a team. You know, the core stuff an MMO is supposed to be good at.

Really?

That whole WvW thing of taking over keeps/towers/forts etc. from an enemy that can bring thought and common sense to the battle, can’t bring guilds together? Those aren’t obstacles? And can’t let your guild progress as a team?

hmm…

I’d say most MMOs pale in comparison by that standard alone.

WvW is not PvE, nor is it capped by the number of players allowed (while being noticeably larger than the standard 5 man). It get’s easier the bigger your zerg is.

tic.7425:

Zeldain.5710:

As an MMO, Guild Wars 2 pales in features that bring a guild together to play and overcome obstacles and progress as a team. You know, the core stuff an MMO is supposed to be good at.

Really?

That whole WvW thing of taking over keeps/towers/forts etc. from an enemy that can bring thought and common sense to the battle, can’t bring guilds together? Those aren’t obstacles? And can’t let your guild progress as a team?

hmm…

I’d say most MMOs pale in comparison by that standard alone.

Hehe, common misconception.

Explain what guild progression there is in WvW? There is nothing that coordination does in WvW that a zerg doesn’t overcome. It’s truly, truly empty game design.

This game is shallow as an MMO. There’s really no getting around that.

Zeldain.5710:

tic.7425:

Zeldain.5710:

As an MMO, Guild Wars 2 pales in features that bring a guild together to play and overcome obstacles and progress as a team. You know, the core stuff an MMO is supposed to be good at.

Really?

That whole WvW thing of taking over keeps/towers/forts etc. from an enemy that can bring thought and common sense to the battle, can’t bring guilds together? Those aren’t obstacles? And can’t let your guild progress as a team?

hmm…

I’d say most MMOs pale in comparison by that standard alone.

Hehe, common misconception.

Explain what guild progression there is in WvW? There is nothing that coordination does in WvW that a zerg doesn’t overcome. It’s truly, truly empty game design.

This game is shallow as an MMO. There’s really no getting around that.

Ahh, i thought you meant progress as a guild as in getting better at your objectives, silly me.

If all you think there is in WvW is zerg, then perhaps there is more you and yours can learn, maybe you should give it more practice. I’ve seen some smaller guild groups do some amazing things in WvW, but you obviously want scripted events to bring your guild together.

We’ll just call it guild progression, and “togetherness”, you just don’t want to do, but to say it doesnt exist just simply isn’t true in my opinion. Unless your just looking for some type of pixels as a reward.

/shrug