Guild Wars 2

Zeldain.5710:

Hehe, common misconception.

Explain what guild progression there is in WvW? There is nothing that coordination does in WvW that a zerg doesn’t overcome. It’s truly, truly empty game design.

This game is shallow as an MMO. There’s really no getting around that.

Lol, you obviously don’t play much. Organized guild groups eat random unorganized zergs for lunch. To overcome organized play with just numbers you need several times more people. It’s not seen that much in top tier servers, where there’s a lot of organization on every side, but in t4/5 where guilds and casuals meet on daily basis the difference is very, very easy to notice.

I did enjoy old-school type raids. The game would for sure need a fair amount of tweaking before something like that happens.

Minimally they’d have to rework the entire condition system, I mean we’re hitting caps and over-writing all over the place with 5 man already.

Wretchedscar.4796:

This ‘limited resources’ argument is silly. It’s an invented excuse with no actual backing in proof or reality. This game has teams working on different things all the time. One for WvW, One for sPvP, One for Dungeons etc. The Idea that having raids would somehow sap these things is silly. Likely they would expand staff and build a team for balancing that. Employee numbers are not some fixed finite thing that could never be changed.

It is actually a legitimate concern. You are assuming Arenanet is willing to hire a new developer group to create raids. They may not consider it a good investment of their money. None of us know if Arenanet is willing to increase how much they spend. They would need to be convinced that the money investment is worth it.

For everyone else talking about just wanting more of a challenge. I totally get it. As a PvPer I love challenges. When I get knocked on my kitten I get back up and try again. Years ago, when I did do raids, I did enjoy the challenges. I do not enjoy them for various other reason but I would still enjoy the initial challenge of working with others to solve a problem. I just wanted to say I do understand you. I just keep trying to point out serious issues that should not be overlooked or dismissed.

kitanas.3596:

OP, to answer your question: areanet has stated that they want you to be out having fun, not preparing to have fun.
How long does it take to organize a raid?
and is that time Having fun, or preparing to have fun?

i dont think that grind for a legendary is fun, but i think that having one is fun, so why can i have one now!?

If you ask me what is the future of GW2, ill tell you that if this game dont get some type of Dungeons(8+)/raids even if the reward is only cosmetic, the game will die.

Because "Karka Events " Only give you content for 1-3 days, and this monthly patchs only have content for 2-3weeks, they really need to put something in the game that give you a reason to play.

Wretchedscar.4796:

DLL, I think, and I’m not attempting to be insulting here, that you have a rather fixed view here. You have some interesting arguments, but you seem to be coming from the point of ‘I don’t want raids’ and then building your argument to support that.

I played Wow for many years. I raided for a lot of those. I had about 3 friends when I hit max Level in Burning Crusade. It took me about 2 days to find a raiding guild when I decided to see what is up with that raiding nonsense. Stepping into Gruuls Lair that first time was EPIC. I still remember the joy I had learning that first 5 Ogre Boss fight, learning new things about my class, even wiping and trying again, doing better, being part of this 25 man team was amazing. I was NOT a good player then (Combat dagger dagger rogue with no weapon spec blah blah) which in this much more forgiving game would equate to trying to use a water weapon on land. I made friends I never would have made, I enjoyed an entirely new aspect of the game I never before knew existed, and lastly, that experience, those raiding experiences are what kept me there for years and years.

Now I’ve Left wow, with good memories, but it’s become a thing I dont like anymore. (I miss you still protodrakes!) The Moment i got the Beta Weekend invite I was Hooked. I love the Lore, The game, the Visuals, I even liked it enough to go buy GW1 and play that when I take time from this game. It’s a Rich and well thought out world. The First time i saw the Shatterer I almost peed with glee and awe. I PLay WvW, I do dungeons, tho fractals frankly make me wanna slam my dick in a door instead; But even that’s gotten better since I joined a Guild of awesome people. Which took me about 5 minutes of talking to one of thier members after having seen them around for a bit. No one in the guild asked me if I’d done a place before when I wanted to join, they were helpfull and explained things as we went if it was a path Ididnt know. The GW Community as a whole is refreshingly nice and nontoxic.

But I miss Raiding. I do not feel that Raiding will ruin the environment of this game. Raiding does not have to be some gated horror story. It could drop it’s own tokens as Dungeons do. It could let the designers really show how their multi class synergy is supposed to work on a larger but also more controlled scale. It could drop Unique weapon skins. Heck! Even let it affect your world in a manner like WVW (minor crafting bonuses for all when we crush the Giant Risen Sea Turtle: Tortizahn! Who Drops an awesome looking Spear skin that only those who have defeated him may get a chance to obtain!)

I do not see how this would effect your idea of this game. It’s a large Dungeon that’s Difficult and would require team work and coordination. It’s not Wow-Herpes.

THIS!

Someone that understands.

If ppl can have fun doing 5man dungeons why cant we do the same in “Large Dungeons” with more coordenation.?

Some people come to this post and throw stones at us, players who defend raids as if they were obliged to do the raids, when they dont are.

lekyii.9856:

Wretchedscar.4796:

DLL, I think, and I’m not attempting to be insulting here, that you have a rather fixed view here. You have some interesting arguments, but you seem to be coming from the point of ‘I don’t want raids’ and then building your argument to support that.

I played Wow for many years. I raided for a lot of those. I had about 3 friends when I hit max Level in Burning Crusade. It took me about 2 days to find a raiding guild when I decided to see what is up with that raiding nonsense. Stepping into Gruuls Lair that first time was EPIC. I still remember the joy I had learning that first 5 Ogre Boss fight, learning new things about my class, even wiping and trying again, doing better, being part of this 25 man team was amazing. I was NOT a good player then (Combat dagger dagger rogue with no weapon spec blah blah) which in this much more forgiving game would equate to trying to use a water weapon on land. I made friends I never would have made, I enjoyed an entirely new aspect of the game I never before knew existed, and lastly, that experience, those raiding experiences are what kept me there for years and years.

Now I’ve Left wow, with good memories, but it’s become a thing I dont like anymore. (I miss you still protodrakes!) The Moment i got the Beta Weekend invite I was Hooked. I love the Lore, The game, the Visuals, I even liked it enough to go buy GW1 and play that when I take time from this game. It’s a Rich and well thought out world. The First time i saw the Shatterer I almost peed with glee and awe. I PLay WvW, I do dungeons, tho fractals frankly make me wanna slam my dick in a door instead; But even that’s gotten better since I joined a Guild of awesome people. Which took me about 5 minutes of talking to one of thier members after having seen them around for a bit. No one in the guild asked me if I’d done a place before when I wanted to join, they were helpfull and explained things as we went if it was a path Ididnt know. The GW Community as a whole is refreshingly nice and nontoxic.

But I miss Raiding. I do not feel that Raiding will ruin the environment of this game. Raiding does not have to be some gated horror story. It could drop it’s own tokens as Dungeons do. It could let the designers really show how their multi class synergy is supposed to work on a larger but also more controlled scale. It could drop Unique weapon skins. Heck! Even let it affect your world in a manner like WVW (minor crafting bonuses for all when we crush the Giant Risen Sea Turtle: Tortizahn! Who Drops an awesome looking Spear skin that only those who have defeated him may get a chance to obtain!)

I do not see how this would effect your idea of this game. It’s a large Dungeon that’s Difficult and would require team work and coordination. It’s not Wow-Herpes.

THIS!

Someone that understands.

If ppl can have fun doing 5man dungeons why cant we do the same in “Large Dungeons” with more coordenation.?

Some people come to this post and throw stones at us, players who defend raids as if they were obliged to do the raids, when they dont are.

If all the player that are asking raids, are like you or Wretchedscar, i see really no harm on adding raids. But the problem is when people that are asking raids, are also asking better loots on raids (better stats principally).

I come from WOW too, and i have to say that i dont miss raid at all (2 years as main tank are kinda frustrating lol), but i see no problem if my gaming experience is not changed by raids.

ATTHWSM.7840:

Sigh… this game. People that dont want endgame cry and scream about it, when it doesnt affect you in anyway. Guess what? Your bad at the game, you lack mechanical knowledge of what works where, or youd rather do other things inside this great game…. THEN DONT RAID. It doesnt affect you either way, so stop. I hardcore raided for 20 hours a week in EQ2, and guess what? There were TONS of people that never raided, didnt care, and it all worked out. This game can do the same thing. You wanna run dungeons? Cool go do that. You wanna craft? Go do it. You want a challenge with rewards that reflect that challenge? Go raid. Its that easy.

And if you want to stay on par with raiders, without raiding, TOO kittenING BAD, LOSER.

Right?

Ganzo.5079:

lekyii.9856:

Wretchedscar.4796:

DLL, I think, and I’m not attempting to be insulting here, that you have a rather fixed view here. You have some interesting arguments, but you seem to be coming from the point of ‘I don’t want raids’ and then building your argument to support that.

I played Wow for many years. I raided for a lot of those. I had about 3 friends when I hit max Level in Burning Crusade. It took me about 2 days to find a raiding guild when I decided to see what is up with that raiding nonsense. Stepping into Gruuls Lair that first time was EPIC. I still remember the joy I had learning that first 5 Ogre Boss fight, learning new things about my class, even wiping and trying again, doing better, being part of this 25 man team was amazing. I was NOT a good player then (Combat dagger dagger rogue with no weapon spec blah blah) which in this much more forgiving game would equate to trying to use a water weapon on land. I made friends I never would have made, I enjoyed an entirely new aspect of the game I never before knew existed, and lastly, that experience, those raiding experiences are what kept me there for years and years.

Now I’ve Left wow, with good memories, but it’s become a thing I dont like anymore. (I miss you still protodrakes!) The Moment i got the Beta Weekend invite I was Hooked. I love the Lore, The game, the Visuals, I even liked it enough to go buy GW1 and play that when I take time from this game. It’s a Rich and well thought out world. The First time i saw the Shatterer I almost peed with glee and awe. I PLay WvW, I do dungeons, tho fractals frankly make me wanna slam my dick in a door instead; But even that’s gotten better since I joined a Guild of awesome people. Which took me about 5 minutes of talking to one of thier members after having seen them around for a bit. No one in the guild asked me if I’d done a place before when I wanted to join, they were helpfull and explained things as we went if it was a path Ididnt know. The GW Community as a whole is refreshingly nice and nontoxic.

But I miss Raiding. I do not feel that Raiding will ruin the environment of this game. Raiding does not have to be some gated horror story. It could drop it’s own tokens as Dungeons do. It could let the designers really show how their multi class synergy is supposed to work on a larger but also more controlled scale. It could drop Unique weapon skins. Heck! Even let it affect your world in a manner like WVW (minor crafting bonuses for all when we crush the Giant Risen Sea Turtle: Tortizahn! Who Drops an awesome looking Spear skin that only those who have defeated him may get a chance to obtain!)

I do not see how this would effect your idea of this game. It’s a large Dungeon that’s Difficult and would require team work and coordination. It’s not Wow-Herpes.

THIS!

Someone that understands.

If ppl can have fun doing 5man dungeons why cant we do the same in “Large Dungeons” with more coordenation.?

Some people come to this post and throw stones at us, players who defend raids as if they were obliged to do the raids, when they dont are.

If all the player that are asking raids, are like you or Wretchedscar, i see really no harm on adding raids. But the problem is when people that are asking raids, are also asking better loots on raids (better stats principally).

I come from WOW too, and i have to say that i dont miss raid at all (2 years as main tank are kinda frustrating lol), but i see no problem if my gaming experience is not changed by raids.

Exactly this. In my experience with raiding, the vast majority of the people who raid, really do it for the better gear. If Guild Wars 2 had raiding, and it gave the same exact rewards as anything else, then those raids will largely go unused except by very few people, not worth the money to develop in my opinion.

I will always support Raiding in GW2.

More importantly, I want challenging PVE content and epic boss battles. Not just a higher player cap. World Events/Dragons are simply Zerg fests and Dungeon’s give little to no challenge. I want real bosses, not bosses with over-simplified singular mechanics and high HP pools. /facedesk

Raid’s can be easily balanced to not force players to do them, but rather to lure player’s into them. Rewards such as Server/World First Achievs (for those who care), Achievs with “special (cosmetic) item” rewards (something for players to aim for after completing the Raid), Cosmetic Armor sets, Cosmetic Weapons, Capes, Backpacks, Titles, Cosmetic Mounts (such as the Witch’s broom), Ascended Accessories (another way to obtain them besides grinding Fractals) and so forth. Not to mention Karma/Money at the end completion.

That way, I can do what I want to do and PVPer’s can do what they want to do, with out being forced into doing something that PVPers don’t want to do in order to stay competitive (-cough-FOTM).

-shrugs- But I doubt it’ll ever happen.

Nurse.1085:

I will always support Raiding in GW2.

More importantly, I want challenging PVE content and epic boss battles. Not just a higher player cap. World Events/Dragons are simply Zerg fests and Dungeon’s give little to no challenge. I want real bosses, not bosses with over-simplified singular mechanics and high HP pools. /facedesk

Raid’s can be easily balanced to not force players to do them, but rather to lure player’s into them. Rewards such as Server/World First Achievs (for those who care), Achievs with “special (cosmetic) item” rewards (something for players to aim for after completing the Raid), Cosmetic Armor sets, Cosmetic Weapons, Capes, Backpacks, Titles, Cosmetic Mounts (such as the Witch’s broom), Ascended Accessories (another way to obtain them besides grinding Fractals) and so forth. Not to mention Karma/Money at the end completion.

That way, I can do what I want to do and PVPer’s can do what they want to do, with out being forced into doing something that PVPers don’t want to do in order to stay competitive (-cough-FOTM).

-shrugs- But I doubt it’ll ever happen.

Finally this discussion is going in the right direction. At least for me ^^

and for FOTM, lets hope they address that problem too lol xD

For the record – any activity that offered COSMETIC ONLY rewards is 110% okay by me.

I have serious problems with + stats. Any activity that would just add more + stat bullkitten I do not support.

Although, ANet has proven they don’t give a rat’s kitten about what I think on the matter.

So, chances are… you’ll get raids with raid-specific stat improved gear. Probably the same update that adds mounts.

Personally want guildwars 1 style content and gear, tiers can go the way of the dinosaur to me…

And all this talk of ground breaking new game Guildwars 2 was going to be, yet to me Guildwars 1 was the ground breaking example of a mmo done right..sadly no# 2 seems to have fallen in line as a WoW clone..it really has..

Exactly this. In my experience with raiding, the vast majority of the people who raid, really do it for the better gear. If Guild Wars 2 had raiding, and it gave the same exact rewards as anything else, then those raids will largely go unused except by very few people, not worth the money to develop in my opinion.

Thats not true and you can see that every day, since the gw2 launch you find 50+ ppl in the dragons events you see alot of ppl in gw2lfg site and alot of partys in Orr doing event and they drop the same thing nothing better than exotic gear.

I dont understand why so many ppl are agaisnt Raids/Large Scale PvE Events, you only do them if you want, they wouldnt drop anything better that the gear that we have now, the loot would be only cosmetic stuff like tonics or minis or weapons like you see in fractals after lvl 19, is the same thing that dungeons, why ppl still do dungeons if they can get the gear by crafting, oh wait because they like the skin from the dungeons but they dont have to do it to have the best gear, i dont think this is a big deal.

And i dont understand why some ppl here say that its not possible to do “raids” in Gw2 when you have dragons and other large events already in the game. And yes theres no Holy trinity in the game but theres Soft Trinity(Damage, Control and Support)(see here http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Wiki:Projects/Soft_trinity)

And what you guys think that in other games they build the Raids firsts and then the Roles!?
Anet just need to build their “raids” around theirs Roles/trinity, like when the first MMO with raids did.

And other think GW2 have an amaizing feature that is scaling, that could give alot of longivity in terms of “raids” they could implement 1 now and after a year of new “raids” ppl would still be doing that one because the lvl/dificulty and loot scales, and not being outdate like in other games like WoW/Rift/SWTOR

I mostly stayed away from raiding communities in other MMOs due to the hassle (and personalities) involved, but there was one game I played where I participated in battles with dozens, scores, occasionally hundreds, of players trying to co-ordinate. That being World War II Online / Battleground Europe. There is certainly a huge rush in joining a massive group of players for a combined arms operation – and then pulling it off successfully.

I also would not mind GW2 adding in more complex mechanics for large fights, that would require coordination of several groups of players (as opposed to just the massing of one uncoordinated group) to successfully complete them, but I’d actually rather it started out in the world than in dungeons. Add some complexity to fights like the Shatterer which (for example) could require some players to man the artillery, while others keep the gunners safe, while the rest go and engage the dragon at close range. Similarly some complexity could be added to WvW to break up the zerg a little, and provide greater rewards for smart co-ordination.

I don’t know about actual dungeon raids, but the game could use some added dynamics for battles with large numbers of players. I’d prefer they used any developments in this area to refine existing content though, rather than building new dungeons that likely only a fraction of the playerbase will ever play.

With the January patch out I wanted to take a moment to point something out. These are a couple quotes in a new thread complaining about the update. Click the link to read the whole statement.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/What-is-wrong-with-this-patch/first

coldfire.3628:

Fractals

3- I farmed the fractals for months to acquire the best stuff ingame, or it was said so. Fractals is not a easy farm, it requires time, patience, and at least a few skills. Now, someone could acquire the same stuff just dodging and crafting wood planks. Ok, it needs one month to buy a ring, but a fractal ring needs a lot of time too. The argument saying ‘you could loot 4 rings a day in fractals’ is a wrong one, because being able to open 4 dailies a day requires a few hundreds of grind hours beforehand… I worked hard to be able to open 3 chests a day, and they still require 4/5h a day at best…

4- Could you please explain what is now the point of the fractals ? I couldn’t find one anymore, except maybe the (ugly) fractals skins…

So, in order to gear myself the best I can, before patch I was forced to play the fractals everyday, and after patch, Fractals are worthless and I’m FORCED to do the dailies without a miss to complete my stuff.
Something is terribly wrong here.

Fortunately there are a number of people disagreeing with him about fractals needing superior gear. In fact I barely saw anyone agree with him on those two points. Which is a good sign, but him complaining is exactly why those who do not raid are concerned. It is going to take time and dedication to change attitudes like this.

I am still confused at why people are opposed to structured raiding…

The philosophy in this game is “fun”. Players can get exotic loot by doing dungeons, participating in WvW, competing in sPvP, doing dailies, crafting, or teaching cows how to fight and race over and over and over again in Diess Plateau…

If (strong if here) Anet introduces structured raids aka dungeons that require 10+ people – this will not take away from anyone. By adding content to this game, so long as it conforms to the current philosophy/manifesto, it will only make this game that much more dynamic and attractive to different gamers. All raiding will be is another way to get exotic gear skins or titles.

Gear checks, damage meters, and reducing the game into a cycle of raiding to get loot so you can raid will not be an issue in this game. Adding a structured raiding element would be a benefit to this game because it will add other ways to have fun.

My only question is how would you get enough people to grind their face against bosses without the reward of superior loot. Maybe that is why Anet hasn’t implemented such a system. Yes it was fun as a guild to finally get that boss down. It felt great and you built friendships… but what kept us going after slamming our face into the keyboard after the 11th wipe? I would wager that in most cases that it was the prospect of better loot which won’t apply in GW2.

I could still giggle at the fact that at least three quarters of all MMOs out there have raids, but raiders buy one of the few that doesn’t have them – and then they complain about the absence of a feature this game was actually advertised NOT to have. It’s really priceless.

And raids – thanks but no thanks. I am really happy that this game doesn’t have them.

Would the game lose any fun value to you if it had a section of the game you never participated in?

Gear progression in raids could be created in a lot of ways without affecting the rest of the game. A few examples:

1) raid gear that is only equippable in raids
2) raid gear that only works in raids, and acts as a cosmetic / wardrobe set outside
3) raid gear that is only especially strong in raids, and has exotic stats outside

This way, they could implement raids WITH gear progression, and still not ruin the rest of the game. Everybody would be happy, except for those who want an unfair advantage over non-raiders, but those should search another game

@Kodesh – In all games I have ever played that had raiding, the raiding portion of the game took the endgame completely over and everything else became secondary to it. Not only the best gear, but the best mats, the best mounts, the best anything dropped ONLY in raids, so much that every other area became pointless to participate in. In my experience, raiders at large seem to be unable to tolerate non-raiders to get any decent reward in a MMO. So when non-raiders then ask “hey, what about us?”, the answers from the raiding community usually are something along the lines of “Of course the best stuff needs to drop in the most challenging content” or “You don’t deserve anything decent if you’re not raiding” or the classic “MMOs are a multiplayer game”. Or my all time favourite “You don’t need raiding loot when you don’t raid.” – which is totally correct and also totally disregarding the fact that in a raiding-based endgame there usually is NOTHING else to do other than gearing up. And PLEASE, don’t not try to convince me that this would be any different in GW2. If ANet would bring raids, the very first question would be “Cool – what exclusive, awesome loot will drop there?”

So in short – OF COURSE the presence of raids would devalue the game for me. It has devalued most other MMOs I tried, too. When I reached endgame level in any MMO having raids, what usually happened is me shelving that character right away, and then wiping the game from my hard drive after doing this with the 2nd or 3rd alt. What’s the point of playing a MMO where the only meaningful content is the one you don’t play?