player statistics on MAX crafting

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Motoko.2361

Motoko.2361

How many players in gw2 have MAXIMUM skill in all crafting skills?

I did an informal survey and I have found the following.

1 or 2 people say they have max skill.

Everybody else says absolutely NOTHING.

How many players actually have maxed out the crafting skills?

1% ? 0.5%

Does anyone really know?

I’m not the only one that hates crafting.

I am looking for info on player stats regarding maximum level crafting.

THank you.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: JackOfAllGames.2409

JackOfAllGames.2409

I enjoying crafting…up to around 400. Cooking especially. Most of my characters have maxed cooking. Multiple have maxed (400) jewelcrafting. Many have another somewhere around 400-450. None yet have 500. That end grind is expensive and just not fun anymore. I’ll do it eventually for better gear, but I’m dragging my heels.

End-game crafting is extremely grindey with the number of materials needed…and it lacks variety. There are so few different types of end-game materials. The things I like about leveling it up just disappear toward the end. The high levels consist of making a bunch of expensive things that you don’t need, trying to scrape your way up high enough to get something you’ll actually USE.

(edited by JackOfAllGames.2409)

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Khisanth.2948

Khisanth.2948

You should ask the person responsible for gw2efficiency to add that to the site. The sampling is skewed but that is around 100k accounts.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Sorin Noroku.5342

Sorin Noroku.5342

I have 400 on all crafting, and some above (leatherworking and tailoring are around 420-450, weapon/armor/huntsman are all 500)

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: RoseofGilead.8907

RoseofGilead.8907

I don’t enjoy crafting, but I still have 500 in every crafting discipline (except for Scribing, in which I have 0, and 400 for Cooking and Jewelcrafting).

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Justine.6351

Justine.6351

I got all,
I think many players won’t though because not everyone needs/cares about scribe but also in order for you to even consider it you need to,

  • Have 3 different amor classed characters
  • Intend to equip them with ascended
  • Have a split in weapon choices that includes all 3 of those crafts

For the 3rd point it’s totally possible to run completely and sensibly without artificer on every class/elite spec.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Randulf.7614

Randulf.7614

All maxed (incl Scribe) plus hunter twice due to not realising something about legendary weapon crafting so ended levelling a second unnecessarily. I kinda enjoyed the crafting process, but it was partly the achievement points which encouraged me through.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Wasabi Kitty.8247

Wasabi Kitty.8247

How many players in gw2 have MAXIMUM skill in all crafting skills?

I did an informal survey and I have found the following.

1 or 2 people say they have max skill.

Everybody else says absolutely NOTHING.

This is amazing research, you should consider publishing this.

Anet make Rev great again.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Haleydawn.3764

Haleydawn.3764

I have maxed all (Scribe included) except for Artificer, which is at around 440ish.

At the time, I just did it for the AP mainly. I do enjoy the Chef discipline though, only for the discovery side of things, it’s actually a little immersive haha.

Kitten.

(edited by Haleydawn.3764)

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Donari.5237

Donari.5237

Long ago maxed everything, then Scribe came along and as my guild has only a few active members and I keep daydreaming I’ll save enough gold for a Permanent Hair Stylist (ha hah ha, I laugh at me for that) progress on leveling it has been slow. I know there is at least one guild that offers training and use of their hall for leveling Scribe, but my guild is low enough on decorations that I want anything I make to go to our storage for members to use. So every now and then I settle in for a session of working on Scribe.

When I’m in the mood for it I do enjoy crafting. Start the crafting boosts, stand between station and trainer with those windows open, pop a TP express to get a third window, and work my way up the skills. I just hope I max Scribe before our guild eventually completes Workshop II, since not having a trainer near the craft station makes it super hard to buy just the one thing I need per recipe.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

I won’t say I enjoy crafting. It isn’t particularly fun or interesting. However, I found it was useful to have so I did max every skill (except scribing).

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: notebene.3190

notebene.3190

I’m 500 across the board (no Scribe, not even sure how to do that really? maybe have to be in a big guild with a special guild hall?). Did it all before HoT came out. Not sure how many characters that’s spread across off hand. I had two per character, and I have one of each character class. A few of the characters at the end didn’t need to learn anything. Crafted one set of Ascended and use Bifrost for my main (Elementalist). Run around with a healing exotic offset with a healing Ascended staff I crafted. Haven’t made any ascended for any of my other characters.

I don’t remember off hand what it was I crafted at the end to get it up, but I seem to recall it wasn’t ‘terribly’ difficult? I’m really not much of one to buy crafting materials off the TP, so I must have gathered most of it myself?

It’s been so long, plus the long 15 month break I took up until about 2.5 months ago, I don’t recall.

I did see someone mention in another post that it would make more sense to make the ‘coin’ (or whatever it is) something a crafter could put on the TP, and then have them put a high ‘minimum price’ on them. Crafters would be happy to have something useful to sell, people that don’t like crafting would be happy they didn’t have to craft.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: TorsoReaper.8530

TorsoReaper.8530

Back in the old days, crafting was a great way to level up characters so I have max crafting in all but 2 professions. Now that crafting doesn’t really get you crap, it’s not worth it unless you want ascended gear.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Bunter.3795

Bunter.3795

On my main account I have: Armor Smith (3×500), Artificer (2×500), Chef (2×400), Huntsman (2×500), Jeweler (6×400), Leatherworker (1×500), Scribe (1×400), Tailor (2×500) and Weapon Smith (3×500). This is spread among the 21 level 80’s.

My second account has one of each crafting profession at max level (400 or 500 respectively) including Scribe.

My 3rd and 4th accounts have half the crafting professions maxed and the rest are 400+ except for Scribe which is being slowly worked on.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

im sad to see efficiency doesnt have a filter to show how many accounts have a certain achieve, or even several. would be neat to see the percentage of users who have Grandmaster Weaponsmith etc etc, and all 6 grandmaster ones.

JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

How many players in gw2 have MAXIMUM skill in all crafting skills?

I did an informal survey and I have found the following.

1 or 2 people say they have max skill.

Everybody else says absolutely NOTHING.

I did a similar experiment, and found out the following:
everyone in my guild has maxed all crafts, except for scribe (which only 2 people had maxed- not surprisingly, as we informed the guild beforehand that they shouldn’t bother with it and our guild has it covered already).

Since the truth always lies in the middle, obviously the real % of people with maxed all crafting (besides scribe) is around 50%[/sarcasm]

(oh, the joys of anecdotal statistics)

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Inculpatus cedo.9234

Inculpatus cedo.9234

All but one, I believe, not including Scribe. That one is at about 470? I’m not sure, I’d have to check. It could even be two in the upper 400s. But, I definitely have 6 maxed, if not 7.

I suppose it matters little, since you are leaving the game, anyway. /shrug

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Ashantara.8731

Ashantara.8731

I also have all crafting disciplines max’d, including scribe because I enjoy decorating our guild hall.

I started for two reasons: curiosity about grasping the system of crafting in GW2, and for leveling my then low level characters (which I think was nerfed late last year so that now you can no longer get as much XP out of it?).

I’m glad I took the time to do this, because there are so many practical uses for the art of crafting. It really is fun, although the system appears somewhat chaotic and not well thought through in some parts. They could have done more with it and in a less complex and more orderly way.

(edited by Ashantara.8731)

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: cadmiumgreen.8712

cadmiumgreen.8712

I’ve got everything but armorsmithing and scribe maxxed out, but declaring an all or nothing on having them all maxxed means you like it and not having them maxxed means you hate it doesn’t reflect reality. I’m eh on crafting and don’t mind doing it, but I don’t have a plate wearing character so I haven’t bothered with the time/material investment. Scribe is also a large investment to level from what I understand. Like or dislike of crafting may have very little to do with whether or not players bother with it if there are other areas they’d rather invest the gold into.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Inculpatus cedo.9234

Inculpatus cedo.9234

I checked; it’s 7 out of 8 maxed. Only Armorsmithing left at mid 400s. Sorry for the inaccurate information.

Though, again, not sure you will even read it.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Slashmeehup.1495

Slashmeehup.1495

I’ve got jewelcraft, artificer, leatherworker, and cooking maxed. When I want the others, I’ll spend 10 minutes on the TP and max it, since, you know, that’s all it takes.

I’m not crazy about crafting either, but it’s such an insignificant part of my play time it hardly matters.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Hesacon.8735

Hesacon.8735

How many players in gw2 have MAXIMUM skill in all crafting skills?

I did an informal survey and I have found the following.

1 or 2 people say they have max skill.

Everybody else says absolutely NOTHING.

This is amazing research, you should consider publishing this.

Someone else beat him to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: CMM.6712

CMM.6712

Maxed, except for Scribe

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Ameepa.6793

Ameepa.6793

I have all crafts maxed, scribe included.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: HnRkLnXqZ.1870

HnRkLnXqZ.1870


I’m not the only one that hates crafting.

That is the reason for your survey?

In my old guild, years ago, I was the boring guy responsible for analysis and surveillance of guild activity and its members. Back then the guildroster did not even display the last online intel. I ran monthly, quarterly and yearly surveys about activity, class/level and crafting disciplines and AP count ofcourse. I did that for a total of ~ 2 years.

The quarterly reports and yearly reports were special and my leaders ordered me to make them look good. Progress, success in leadership, the usual stuff what companies also do. Drawing funny colorful pictures of circles, cakes and skyscrapers which should display how good our guild was.

Here are my conclusions:
- the ammount of people who actually cares about statistics is significantly low. Most people just grab statistics to prove their own prejudices. It is not worth to run a survey. Watching grass grow is more enlightning and less frustrating.
- facts and numbers are flexible. You can draw figures as you please, no matter what the raw data says.
- the raw data needs a polish, always. As it is already old, the instant you work with it.
- prejudices about majorities and minorities are usually false. Back in that time, we had the constant global opinion that the game was flooded by warriors and guardians. The ammount of people actually playing that class was nearly constant and every class was played more or less equally. There were ups and downs of certain classes, but nothing to be worried about.
- the community of a game who actually uses a forum is a minority of the playerbase. So any survey done on a forum will not result in any useful data at all. And that is probably the reason why ANet never runs polls on the forums.
- There is a correlation-effect between AP score and crafting disciplines maxed.
- correlation does not mean causation

tl&dr; statistics are boring and a waste of time. GW2 is a beautiful game with tons of possibilities. If you do not like crafting, just don’t do it. If you need crafting for legendaries or ascended gear, use the gw2crafts.net.

But to answer your question:
- all professions except chef and scribe on 500
- chef 400, scribe 45

dulfy-effect: Knowledge is power. But without fame, you are just a freak.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Haleydawn.3764

Haleydawn.3764

tl&dr; statistics are boring and a waste of time. GW2 is a beautiful game with tons of possibilities. If you do not like crafting, just don’t do it. If you need crafting for legendaries or ascended gear, use the gw2crafts.net.

Whole post was well put. I agree 100%

This whole backlash of the Ascended Vending changes are ridiculous. Anet wanted the main way to get ascended armor and weapons to be to craft it.

The PvP vendor was poorly implemented, partly because it encouraged people who didn’t want to PvP to do so, leading to more matches with AFK players, players participating in league play and not caring that they lose, not wanting to improve. Causing other players, who want to progress their MMR, to drop.

With the introduction of the raid, with time spent maxing Weekly Magnetite shards, you actually get a massive discount compared to crafting it.
With the Fractal Vendor, it costs more to buy it than to craft it.
In PvP, yes, shards are capped per season, but the cost per piece was the most lucrative in game.
And not forgetting the fact Anet has still not implemented a similar vendor for WvW.

So with a bit of luck, all of these vendors will be brought inline (WvW case, implemented) with what Anet stated about a moderate discount compared to traditional crafting, across the board.

Kitten.

(edited by Haleydawn.3764)

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Lyp Sao.1375

Lyp Sao.1375

all@500/chef@400/Scribe@pfff

Don’t fight the other ants
Fight the queens

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Just a flesh wound.3589

Just a flesh wound.3589

Cooking and jewelry: at 400
Weapons crafting ones: at 500
Armor crafting ones: between 400-500
Scribing: zero

Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

Everything at max level except scribing which is at 0.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Behellagh.1468

Behellagh.1468

I’ve been leveling crafting up to max on each of my characters. Currently have 4 done, 2 to 500 (tailor, artificer), and two (jewelry and chef) to 400 and 2 being worked on to 500 (weaponsmith, leatherworker). When I finally roll a heavy class I’ll start on the other two.

We are heroes. This is what we do!

RIP City of Heroes

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Danikat.8537

Danikat.8537

I don’t think it’s possible for anyone except Arenanet to get accurate data on this.

The impression I’ve gotten is that most people have at least some progress and it’s not at all unusual to find someone who has maxed multiple crafts. But there’s also a noticable chunk of people who refuse to craft at all and will go out of their way to avoid it. (e.g. refusing to make the new HoT legendaries even if they want one because it would involve crafting).

It’s certainly a lot quicker and easier to max crafting in GW2 than in Elder Scrolls Online or Ultima Online (the only other MMOs I’ve played) which makes me think it’s likely to be more popular – also it gives XP which contributes to leveling up. I certainly see fewer people asking for someone else to craft things for them in this game, but that might be because anything craftable which isn’t account bound can be found on the Trading Post.

As for me I’ve maxed cooking, jewelery, leatherworker, artificer and I think weaponsmith and all the rest are between 400-500, except scribe which is about 20. I want to get them all to 500 eventually but it’s not a high priority for me. I keep thinking about finishing them all, then I decide I should wait until I want to make something so I’m not buying all the materials just to level.

I do like having the option available to craft stuff as and when I need to. Sometimes it saves a lot of gold and sometimes I just prefer doing things that way (like crafting my own mini Aurene).

Danielle Aurorel, Dear Dragon We Got Your Cookies [Nom], Desolation (EU).

“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Blockhead Magee.3092

Blockhead Magee.3092

The answer to your query probably revolves around those you hang out with. My wife, friends, and most guild mates are all max on crafting. So the same survey by me would put the number at 90%.

SBI

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Kalendraf.9521

Kalendraf.9521

I have all crafting skills maxed except scribe which I have not started and have no plans to do so either.

HoD – [CV] Charter Vanguard

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Michael.9403

Michael.9403

All crafters maxed too 500, after ascended armor was released. All weapon makers had already moved up when ascended weapons came out. The jeweler of course, remains at 400.

Once I learned you had to craft your own ascended, up they went to 500.

9 elites, one of each class, all with at least ascended weapons, coat, pants, and jewelry. Some full ascended. I can even play some of them, at least to kill the easier champions.

I went to 400 as part of leveling 4 of them, (2 crafts each) and the rest leveled harvesting mats while the 80’s ran world bosses for ectos.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

Everything except scribe….Because no. Seriously, i have nothing but four letter words for that “craft”.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

i dont have crafting stuff armor and weapon stopped arround 400-430, i got no gold, not even to follow a guide, so i wont lvl the gold trap crafting system, since i dont burn real money on this game (ive learned that lesson).

I dont do pve, i didnt even finished HoT and probably never will….

1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Feersum Endjinn.4179

Feersum Endjinn.4179

Maxed out on all crafting including scribing. I think the changes are a good idea as think giving away ascended just cheapens it for those of us who have put in all the effort. The whole point of ascended is it is supposed to be more difficult to get.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Ardid.7203

Ardid.7203

I have all the crafts at max, Scribe included.
I don’t know anything about statistics: I may be an exception, or the most common profile in the crafting area, I truly don’t know.

“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Mahou.3924

Mahou.3924

I have one of character per class, and only on the Guardian Cooking because it was the cheapest to level to gain a few character levels. As I get EASILY bored and nauseous from doing the same thing over and over and over (which for some ironic, double-standardish reason hasn’t applied to leveling characters through the same zones), I have about 80 gold <LOL> and refuse to waste it on leveling a gold-devouring crafting type, just to find something else after a few weeks and ignore GW2 for another couple years until I think “Hey, let’s take another look into GW2”.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Danikat.8537

Danikat.8537

Heh, having checked in game I found out the only ones I haven’t maxed out are Huntsman, Weaponsmith and Tailor and I’m closer than I realised on all 3. Maybe I will get on and finish them.

Edit: And now I remember the main reason I don’t level crafting when I’m not making something specific – I tend to mess it up and cost myself a lot of gold. Like randomly deciding making Primordus weapons and the Vial of Green Goo would be a good way to level Huntsman, then realising I have far less of the materials required than it actually needs, and trying to buy them quickly.

Danielle Aurorel, Dear Dragon We Got Your Cookies [Nom], Desolation (EU).

“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”

(edited by Danikat.8537)

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

How many players in gw2 have MAXIMUM skill in all crafting skills?

What difference would it make? Why would ANet release such a singular statistic if it doesn’t release any other stats about the game?

It might be more useful to inquire:

  • What do you like about crafting in GW2? What do you hate?
  • Do you like crafting in other games? If so, what about it do you like?

My guess is that we’ll find that a huge fraction of people who don’t craft in GW2 also don’t craft in other games. Of those that do craft elsewhere (but not in Tyria), a large fraction will say it’s because there’s limited need to do so here — exotic gear is readily available on the TP for crafting-like costs.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: PaxTheGreatOne.9472

PaxTheGreatOne.9472

Maxed out on all…

Some proffessions I have multiple times above 400 or at 400 (mostly due to early game speedlevel by crafting…)

When I look at my characters (22 with 3 possible proffesions I find:

Tailor
500,431,433,407,80
Artificer
500,424,423,400,112,29
Leatherworker
500,438,331,122
Huntsman
500,54
Armorsmith
500,420,351,11
Weaponsmith
500,467,429,46,16,10
Cooking
400,161,53,42
Jeweler (was an effective way of levelling in the 1st year, cheap as well)
400,400,400,400,400,400,117,43,6
Scribe
400

No crafting skills whatsoever
7 characters

All the Maxed skills, so my main crafting chars, are on
5 characters.

amount of characters with at least 2 crafting skills above 400:
11 characters

amount of characters with 2 crafting skills at 500:
3, and these are my main crafters.

23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.

(edited by PaxTheGreatOne.9472)

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Tumult.2578

Tumult.2578

Not really sure why you posted this. An informal study has absolutely no value in this type of discussion. I have all crafting disciplines maxed. People who put it off will realize the mistake soon.

I don’t consider Scribe as a crafting discipline because it’s gated behind Hot and also requires a non conflict guild hall.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Endless Soul.5178

Endless Soul.5178

The only crafting profession I don’t have maxed is Scribe, and that’s at 253.

All other crafting professions are maxed.

Asura characters: Zerina | Myndee | Rissa | Jaxxi | Feyyt | Bekka | Sixx | Akee | Tylee | Nuumy
| Claara
Your skin will wrinkle and your youth will fade, but your soul is endless.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: cptaylor.2670

cptaylor.2670

I have every one maxed out except armorsmithing that’s just above 400. I only followed guides though. It would be too overhwelming and inefficient without guides.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Ampa.2749

Ampa.2749

scribe = 0
all other craft professions = max.

Guardian, Engineer, Elementalist, Mesmer, Thief, Necro

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Inculpatus cedo.9234

Inculpatus cedo.9234

Looks like this informal survey produced the opposite results to the OP’s. Go figure!

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Rollingonit.1309

Rollingonit.1309

Have had game since launch. Do not have a single crafting profession maxed. Spent months WvWvW right after launch. Have taken long breaks. Come back sporadically. Will probably never get an ascended piece of armor (do have Ascended longbow from teq)(if it’s removed from fractals, then almost certain I will never. Fractals would probably be my only way; since I do not like crafting in this game, and do not sPvP)

Still finishing WC

(edited by Rollingonit.1309)

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: crussell.8504

crussell.8504

All crafts, including scribe, maxed. Not hard to do. Grab a guide. Grab a coffee and you can do all in a few hours.

player statistics on MAX crafting

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Rollingonit.1309

Rollingonit.1309

All crafts, including scribe, maxed. Not hard to do. Grab a guide. Grab a coffee and you can do all in a few hours.

Tried it once, after 30 minutes. Couldnt do it. Dont know. Will run world bosses for 6 hrs, but idk man something about crafting in this game; just a no go. Tried multiple times over the 4 years Ive been playing. Someone link me a good guide. Maybe Ill try again.