Guild Wars 2

Dante.1508:

Viking Jorun.5413:

The people claiming GW2 was “easy” from day 1 obviously didn’t play at launch. Does nobody remember the CONSTANT whining about how the game was “too hard”, especially exploitable dungeons? Had ArenaNet not nerfed the dungeons to allow more players to access them and decreased the difficulty of DEs, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Was this in Beta? because i was in GW2 from day one it opened and i didn’t see any difference in difficulty compared to today, for me the difficulty hasn’t changed at all since day one.

Still pretty shallow tho, compared to other MMO’s.

It wasn’t in Beta. It was constant in reference to Ascalonian Catacombs, or the Fire Elemental, to name two. It was “common knowledge” that to try taking the Fire Elemental meant repair costs two or three times. And that AC couldn’t be done short of expert runners.

Even to this day, Arah Path 4 takes time, dedication and a lot of coordination. If the rest of the game were Arah path 4, however, nobody but the hardcore crowd would bother playing the game. If you can’t find your peace in Fractals 70 or soloing Arah runs, perhaps the game isn’t for you. I know for a fact that tPvP isn’t “casual” by any means, so give it a go.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Dante.1508:

Viking Jorun.5413:

The people claiming GW2 was “easy” from day 1 obviously didn’t play at launch. Does nobody remember the CONSTANT whining about how the game was “too hard”, especially exploitable dungeons? Had ArenaNet not nerfed the dungeons to allow more players to access them and decreased the difficulty of DEs, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Was this in Beta? because i was in GW2 from day one it opened and i didn’t see any difference in difficulty compared to today, for me the difficulty hasn’t changed at all since day one.

Still pretty shallow tho, compared to other MMO’s.

It wasn’t in Beta. It was constant in reference to Ascalonian Catacombs, or the Fire Elemental, to name two. It was “common knowledge” that to try taking the Fire Elemental meant repair costs two or three times. And that AC couldn’t be done short of expert runners.

Well Fire Ele was so hard because most tackling it were lv 15 and below so the nerf was probably good, AC to me is far harder now than it ever was at opening.

title of thread is not “professions and combat are easy”

The thing is, there are some profession-weapon combinations that result in simple combat.

For example, I found that I cannot enjoy the combat on my Thief, because with D/D, it’s essentially an endless repetition of Cloak and Dagger, Backstab and autoattacking, with Heartseeker coming in at low health. That uses 3 out of the 5 skills. Throw in the fact that a lot of Thief utilities aren’t exactly actively used, and it just results in utter boredom.

On the other hand, I really like playing my Warrior with Sword/Axe, as that results in using all the skills.

In some cases, the fact that skills become like this is because a weaponset is clearly conflicted. Take D/D on Thief for example. For direct damage, Deathblossom is useless. Dancing Dagger isn’t a high damage skill, so it’s mostly used to keep runners in check. That leaves you with three skills. Out of those, Heartseeker is outright waste of initiative unless you’re chasing or your foe has <50% hp. So you’re left with 2. All because the set contains one condition skill and a cripple.

But let’s be serious for a moment. Unless you’re specific about being the top DPS or what-have-you, you can always get around the issue by selecting weapons that don’t have that issue. And no, adding more skills or the ability to select from a pool of skills won’t solve anything. Unless of course, by some divine miracle, you happen to get skills that would prove useful in your chosen style. And with some cases, such as Thieves with D/D, that’s just not going to happen.

Erasculio.2914:

We often get players who do not want to play GW2 and wish they were playing some other MMO. Those often come here to complain about the GW2 combat system, and to point how ArenaNet needs to change it so it’s exactly like the system in their favourite MMORPG.

OP, what MMO would you rather be playing right now?

That is just ridiculous.
- Personally, I like a lot of the things about the combat system in GW2, but the limitted skillset is not one of them.

- ANet improved a lot of things about the combat system previously used in MMO’s. They made it more dynamic and for the first few levels GW2 is the most fun experience I’ve had, but that is because there are more skills to get and your character is progressing, getting stronger and learning more skills, but that part of the fun is inevitably cut short when you hit around lvl 30-40… maybe stretch it to 50. No more skills to learn, really.
- The first Guild Wars had the 20 levels but your character kept progressing even after that. In GW2, your character is done progressing way before level cap, which actually, whether the fanboys will like me saying it or not, bad game design. The last 30 levels felt like a grind. The only thing that kept me going was the new sights I was going to see, so I did it happily, since I was already invested in the game world and lore from the first game.

- Anyhow, that’s enough side stepping, back to the combat!
Personally, I’m the type of guy that likes, say, Greatswords or Sword and Shields as my weapons, however, I’m far from happy with the choice of skills I have for those weapons on my Guardian, while there are some skills that my warrior have that I like better about those weapons.
- Now, I don’t mean to say that we should have secondary professions, but I’d like more skills to choose from on one profession that suits my play style with those certain weapons.
- The combat system in GW2 isn’t bad, but it can most definitely become better, be expanded and become more interesting, because it does grow stale, particularly when you, like me, have favorite weapons to go with your character. And don’t you start saying that I should try out other weapons instead, because I can play the way I want to… with Greatswords!!! (they could, since it is the primary part of my playstyle, and many others’ as from what I gather from the forums)

Try playing ele or engi.

It depends on your playstyle. If you’re not willing to experiment and try new crazy stuff you’re going to have the same shallow boring combat that you had in older mmorpgs. I agree that GW2 need more skills, especially elite skills for more combinations and builds, and new weapons for classes. Elementalist underwater is so weak i cry everytiem.

Little customization? Are you crazy? You pick 3 utilities out of like 40, 1 heal out of 3, and 1 elite out of 3. Not only that, but 2 weapon sets. In many other MMOs every elementalist or necro you see would have the same exact skill layout

Turbo Whale.1738:

Little customization? Are you crazy? You pick 3 utilities out of like 40, 1 heal out of 3, and 1 elite out of 3. Not only that, but 2 weapon sets. In many other MMOs every elementalist or necro you see would have the same exact skill layout

In this game, most people do have one or two skill layouts only, though not always the same. They find one weapon set they like, one type of skill focus they like, and they run with it until they need to change it. Then they might change completely or only for a time.

In GW1, on the other hand, there were an incredible spread of skills but many of them were just of questionable use. Not “they are generally thought of as bad, but…” . . . no, literally they were “What the heck do I do with this? How does this even work? Should I use this elite or this other elite? What about my secondary profession?”

The difference between the two games is, agreeably, staggering. In GW1 you had tons of options but many of them would go unused except for one or two specific builds. In GW2 you have less options but there’s a greater chance you’ll find a use for them.

Except for Ranger Spirits. They can go die in a fire.

Turbo Whale.1738:

Little customization? Are you crazy? You pick 3 utilities out of like 40, 1 heal out of 3, and 1 elite out of 3. Not only that, but 2 weapon sets. In many other MMOs every elementalist or necro you see would have the same exact skill layout

In game-play, deep is the opposite of shallow. GW2 has some complexity, but complexity is not depth.

Offering choices that make players think adds depth. In GW2, too many game-enhancing abilities, and too many of the counters to prevailing game mechanics reside in too few of the skills. This often makes the decisions of what to use a no-brainer. How many times do people do without condition removal and/or stun break, for instance?

In deep game play, players would agonize over which skills to slot, because the opportunity cost of slotting A, B and C would be not having skills X, Y and Z — where all would enhance game play and/or offer meaningful counter-play. Too often in GW2 that is not the case.

Algreg.3629:

there are more complex games out there and gw1 certainly was one when it came to skill synergy, but from your description it appears you are not even making use of the options GW2, which you call shallow, offers you.

If you really play like that, you are certainly underplaying any class. Sure, you get by fine in open world PvE, but even there you´d be way more effective if you put some more thought into it. Not to speak of dungeons and fractals.

Why would you call for a more complex system when you are not even exploring the complexity of a proclaimed shallow one?

Well, even in dungeons you don’t really need to. I think sPvP is the only place where you really need to watch which skills you bring etc.

I do think part of the problem is that even though there is some depth in the system, you don’t actually need it for most of the game. And the layers that are there are not very transparent in what they do.

But my biggest concern is still that with all the things that are there, you are not very free in a lot of choices as I explained above. Combine that with the fact that you can beat most content as long you can dodge and ress and use auto attack and you are right, people don’t use whatever complexity is there because you don’t need to.

So why bother if the only difference is that you kill a boss in 2.5 mins instead of 3 mins? The combat system doesn’t invite to creativity and the long cooldowns on most skills mean you rarely get to use them in combat, so often you don’t or just do cause it’s something to click.

If confusion still hit hard the OP would have to learn to play.

Just saying.

VOLKON.1290:

Strange… I’m using a good 20 different abilities on my mesmer.

Then you overplayed

Dante.1508:

Viking Jorun.5413:

The people claiming GW2 was “easy” from day 1 obviously didn’t play at launch. Does nobody remember the CONSTANT whining about how the game was “too hard”, especially exploitable dungeons? Had ArenaNet not nerfed the dungeons to allow more players to access them and decreased the difficulty of DEs, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Was this in Beta? because i was in GW2 from day one it opened and i didn’t see any difference in difficulty compared to today, for me the difficulty hasn’t changed at all since day one.

Still pretty shallow tho, compared to other MMO’s.

I dont remember whaat he’s saying either but I do remember that in one patch they made downleveling +2 the area level instead of +1. ehhh didnt like that at all

Combat in this game most certainly doesnt lack depth. like some said above it does lack a need to utilize that depth most of the time.

In fact I will go so far as say as a combat system what he have here is one of the ones that really have most depth. You can actually strategist while fighting and there is an almost infinite strategies you can employ. Skills in this game are tools that do so many different things that possibilities are endless. I can play my necro defensively. Fear, chill, stack conditions, dodge, dodge repeat. or stack conditions, blind, blind, regen (stacks bleed on them too), regen or chill, stack conditions, death shroud, tainted shackles, dodge, life blast… or chill, stack conditions, fear, lich form, chilling wind, death claws or (have the trait that does damage with fear) stack conditions, fear, death shroud, doom, spectral wall … I could go on but I suppose 5 completely different ways I can using a single build to play defensively with my necro is enough to outline that there is a ton of flexibility there. I can also mix and match between these 5 examples to play defensively for a prolonged amount of time. Like wise I have the same flexibility when playing offensively and when trying to support… Again always using exactly the same build.

Of course in most encounters using 1 alone is enough. But not necessarily the fastest most efficient way to end a fight and if things get hairy 1 will most definitely not cut it out. The game is easy for the most part no doubt there but that doesnt mean combat doesnt have depth or isnt complex thats an entirely different story.

@Kura, that’s exactly what this game is now. It’s about getting ascended gear now, it’s about one set of gear that’s even viable, one holy build that makes all the others invalid, it’s about spamming number one and two and sometimes three. When it came down to the trinity in this game they had the right idea but failed to execute it.

Nightarch.2943:

@Kura, that’s exactly what this game is now. It’s about getting ascended gear now, it’s about one set of gear that’s even viable, one holy build that makes all the others invalid, it’s about spamming number one and two and sometimes three. When it came down to the trinity in this game they had the right idea but failed to execute it.

Not really, I dont have any ascended gear, I dont have one holy build, I change often… I have a build I use for JPs, a build I use for PvE, A build I use for dungeons and WvW (and here I swap some skills if I have time based on the size of the opposition etc…)

When I am fighting I do support, dps and tank based on the situation too. And I use all my skills of both weapons all the time. You just spaming 1 because that what you choose to do not because thats the only option.

Galen Grey.4709:

You just spaming 1 because that what you choose to do not because thats the only option.

If he is “just spamming 1”, and manages to beat as much content as you (not sure if he does or not), then the fault is not the player but the system. Strategy, skill and tactics shouldn’t be “an option”, or else it means they’ll never be needed in favor of easier playing.

I can also make a “healer” build. I can also make a “control” build. But guess what, most of them are pointless, because of the systems in place.

That’s why the person you quoted said that the idea to remove the trinity was good, but the execution was not. In games with the trinity, each of the three roles are needed. Certainly, a game does not need the holy trinity (take a look at GW1, which did not have traditional tanks, and had a lot more than three roles), but if the systems allow any role to beat content, then the majority of people will simply pick the fastest (and easiest) route.

GW2’s combat should require its own trinity. It should require control builds, it should require support builds. It should require condition damage, etc. When you have systems like defiance that destroy control builds, when you have poor party support tools (mechanically) and those are optional because everyone can be self-sustainable, when you have condition caps and all this, then the game degenerates into a berserker zerg rush. All those contribute to making GW2’s a shallow game. Being self-sustainable doesn’t comes at the cost of anything (why?), while sustaining others directly (with support) or indirectly (with control) comes at huge costs to efficiency. This is poor design.

Again, the removal of the trinity was a good idea, but the execution was not.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Galen Grey.4709:

You just spaming 1 because that what you choose to do not because thats the only option.

If he is “just spamming 1”, and manages to beat as much content as you (not sure if he does or not), then the fault is not the player but the system. Strategy, skill and tactics shouldn’t be “an option”, or else it means they’ll never be needed in favor of easier playing.

I can also make a “healer” build. I can also make a “control” build. But guess what, most of them are pointless, because of the systems in place.

That’s why the person you quoted said that the idea to remove the trinity was good, but the execution was not. In games with the trinity, each of the three roles are needed. Certainly, a game does not need the holy trinity (take a look at GW1, which did not have traditional tanks, and had a lot more than three roles), but if the systems allow any role to beat content, then the majority of people will simply pick the fastest (and easiest) route.

GW2’s combat should require its own trinity. It should require control builds, it should require support builds. It should require condition damage, etc. When you have systems like defiance that destroy control builds, when you have poor party support tools (mechanically) and those are optional because everyone can be self-sustainable, when you have condition caps and all this, then the game degenerates into a berserker zerg rush. All those contribute to making GW2’s a shallow game. Being self-sustainable doesn’t comes at the cost of anything (why?), while sustaining others directly (with support) or indirectly (with control) comes at huge costs to efficiency. This is poor design.

Again, the removal of the trinity was a good idea, but the execution was not.

I disagree here. I am sure I could do just fine in most encounters using nothing but skill 1 but that doenst mean it makes sense for me to use nothing but that skill. By playing using strategy all the time I do more, I kill mobs faster and many more of them. I also get good at dealing with the complexity. This helps for the times when I end up facing something other then most encounters where if you dont think quickly you’ll get overwhelmed. Its not a common situation granted but it happens.

I dont completely disagree with what you’re saying but I think you’re taking it a bit too far. There most definitely is a place for control and support. Again the problem is most content is a bit too forgiving so if you lack one role over the other you will not necessary fail but you will loose more effeciency then if you dont IMHO. Condition cap is also required cause without a cap conditions would be too powerful. 25 stack of bleeds can easily cause 2300 damage per second. 25 stacks of confusion can do up to 7k damage per skill used etc… and a nice necro can make sure everyone gets these stacks by using epidemic. Imagine if we could go twice that or three times that. In PvP it would be impossible. imagine 5 necros, a couple fear / blind the enemy group while the other 3 stack a ton of conditions quickly then they switch the 3 group fear and blind while the other 2 stack conditions … it would be extremely op i imagine. Even in PvE with the big zerg the numbers you would reach would be too big a single epidemic would insta wipe any adds the champion / boss might get.

But you’re right in a way. The fact the game is too easy does trivialize this to the point its not needed most of the time. Also because bosses are nearly immune to control its makes it hard to justify its use there when most needed so there are most certainly issues but saying its shallow isnt really true. There is a lot to it it just needs more difficult content. Next update is suppose to have some, we’ll see how that feels.

So far Galen you have managed to take things out of context, I’m speaking about smug elitism and and the lacking impact that most skills have and the synergy between different builds. Right now the game is going down a path where group play is headed towards “zerker” only builds and that kind of annoys me… It’s lazy design.

Nightarch.2943:

@Kura, that’s exactly what this game is now. It’s about getting ascended gear now, it’s about one set of gear that’s even viable, one holy build that makes all the others invalid, it’s about spamming number one and two and sometimes three. When it came down to the trinity in this game they had the right idea but failed to execute it.

That’s exactly what I mean. Most MMO’s you can get the best gear, best skill set and just faceroll and win. GW2 is even worse because the content is more forgiving than most MMO’s including GW1-pre heroes.

I think Dragon Nest did a decent job with their trinity. They have DPS, debuffs, buffs, heals, control, etc builds but opting for those professions doesn’t mean that you kitten your own DPS so much that you can’t solo. Vindictus has no trinity and every one DPS’s in a style unique to their character…. Vindi’s combat controls are very simple, with no hot keys needed, and only a few hot-keyable skills available. That game is all about reflexes, timing, countering, and split second gameplay.

Towards the end of GW1, they made it like it’s GW2 right now. One hero build to rule them all…. and afk clear a dungeon. If you aren’t using the best build you are just gimping yourself for no good reason.

FFXIV: ARR also does something nice: it allows you to have a homogenized build for solo-playing, but requires you to specialize for team playing. Best of both worlds. In GW2, combat was designed mostly around solo playing, at the cost of many team playing mechanics.

You make me want to play Vindictus again Kura. I get lonely though otherwise I’d probably be playing that or Skyrim/DarkSiders/Red Dead Redemption or any other exploration solo game.

I posted this several months ago in a different thread.

JK Arrow.7102:

Anchorwind.9016:

Within the GW model, I [as many others have] enjoyed the tactical nature of squad-based synergies and counter-play. I applaud the developers of GW for having a system that places ‘weaker’ builds on foes in appropriate areas and ‘stronger’ builds on foes in appropriate areas without resorting to ‘buckets of HP’ and other duller replacements. I give Slavers’ Exile as an example. Many of the foes in Slavers’ Exile had builds that encouraged their foes [we, the players] to possess a higher skill level than foes in other areas. Fortunately, Slavers’ Exile was also labelled appropriately [Elite]. By diversifying the builds we faced, and giving foes builds [more] worth having, we received difficulty increases without needless tediousness presently seen. Effectively built and run squads could still move out with purpose in any given area, a talent lost in 250 years with up/down scaling and buckets of HP.

Skill[s] over Stats. Perhaps a philosophy lost in the mists.

^ ^ A lot of this…

I don’t want to go back to all instances as this is now more an MMO than GW1 was in design but to balance this there were design changes that compound the removal of instances…

Open world balance for solo explorer ->
Enemy groups become solo enemies ->
Enemies no longer have interaction with one another (heal, prot, defend) ->
Limited skill set for single enemy ->
Extremely shallow encounters ->
Add HP and CC to make the fight longer

I’m not going to say that the instanced content in dungeons is perfect because it’s not but it is at least better than almost any open world content. Now if more of it could be balanced around a mixed group of 5 with varying abilities and skills rather than DPS a huge health pool or solve a gimmick, we could make some real progress.

DiogoSilva.7089:

In GW2, combat was designed mostly around solo playing, at the cost of many team playing mechanics.

Team play mechanics are present, and utilized frequently in the dungeon meta. In that sense, combat was not designed mostly around solo play. There are a lot of skills that benefit one’s team. Combat mechanics in dungeon play lack depth because of the short range of the skills that benefit team members. This promotes stacking as the preferred tactic in the vast majority of encounters.

On the build level, what’s absent in dungeon play is opportunity cost with regard to profession and build choice. The skills needed to complete most dungeon paths are available to a variety of professions. This means that the opportunity cost issue centers around maximum dps. Professions or builds that offer less dps do not bring anything to the party that the party cannot get “enough” of without sacrificing damage.

This game’s bosses in a “nutshell.” Takes me ten minutes of hardcore slapping to get three copper and a grey item.

Nightarch.2943:

This game’s bosses in a “nutshell.” Takes me ten minutes of hardcore slapping to get three copper and a grey item.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYNeT2nzEgA

Yeah Anet’s idea of difficulty is extremely high boss hitpoints,. crazy high damage,… no interesting mechanics, with most just standing there the entire time and not bother to move. You can eat while playing just mashing all the number keys.

Vindictus has several sandbag bosses like serpent Lakoria and the kraken but is far more dynamic than GW2’s most dynamic boss. You still have to dodge, prevent AoE attacks, and pay attention to what’s happening.

@Nightarch: yeah I keep going back to vindi after quitting for a while. i figure at this point it’s just a game that I will keep playing off and on for a long time.

Not shallow, more like not deep enough to differentiate your personal build against some1 else

Nightarch.2943:

So far Galen you have managed to take things out of context, I’m speaking about smug elitism and and the lacking impact that most skills have and the synergy between different builds. Right now the game is going down a path where group play is headed towards “zerker” only builds and that kind of annoys me… It’s lazy design.

Elitism is always going to exist, nothing you can do there. Look at your screenshot. there are 7 groups that requested specific characters / builds Look for what dungeon? CoF P1 speed run. Why is that Path popular? its super easy, nothing hard to fight, fast. Thats hardly evidence of a shallow combat system. Another interesting thing is some of those zerkers are asking for a mesmer as well, why is that? time warp will increase their attacks by 50% In fact considering burst damage is very important there I kinda think those who are going warrior only path are making a mistake, time warp would be very useful to have here.

I was thinking about this very topic yesterday on the way home from work. Combat in GW2 is a step up from the traditional standstill tab target. But it isnt a great combat system. It has serious potential like the rest of the game, but it isnt great. You can get by with just mashing 1 or 2 buttons. Some classes you just put all 5 abilities on cooldown and then auto attack.

I compared it to something like WoW…
On my boomkin in WoW, I would run up to a mob and tab target, put two dots on it, spam one button till dead…standing still.

In GW2, I’ll run up to a mob and tab target, death blossom two or 3 times and target is dead. Or Unload 2 or 3 times, and target is dead.

With the invent of combo fields, this can make combat SO interesting, but levels 1-80, you dont need to do much else for most professions other than one or two buttons like any other game.

I would give this combat system a solid 7/10, 10 being something like Tera or Neverwinter.

I love the “combat is shallow” argument. What they’re really saying is “I only have to manage 1 bar and not 38943 of them with convoluted and unneeded skills and bloat.”

Basically, GW and GW2 get rid of the bloat and streamlines combat. It’s optimal and one of the best I’ve ever dealt with.

Iconik.8712:

I love the “combat is shallow” argument. What they’re really saying is “I only have to manage 1 bar and not 38943 of them with convoluted and unneeded skills and bloat.”

Basically, GW and GW2 get rid of the bloat and streamlines combat. It’s optimal and one of the best I’ve ever dealt with.

apparently you didn’t read my post and don’t understand it. no that’s not what i’m saying. essentially gw2 cut the fat and meat leaving only the bone. it was nice of them to provide some armor and gear dressing for the bone, but it still a bone and that bones. the profession design is for their convenience not the players enjoyment. sure there a few choices to build your character outside of gear but ultimately they designed professions around getting the end user to break out their credit card. this will be even more evident when ascended and legendary gear is in place. players don’t mind spending cash for their character or to support a game, but the problem here is that players are getting extremely low ROI comparatively. sorry but when a developer spends more time and resources on temporary content and more effort trying to gobble cash from players, the least that could be done is to give customers a better bone with some meat on it.

limitations are optimal? no they are limitations. the only things optimal here are using your auto attack to do damage, the ability to move while attacking and that you can play most of the game managing a few buttons while you watch tv or talk on the phone. i highly doubt you would complain about having a few extra buttons that made more complete and interesting weapon sets, having more weapons to use, the ability to customize secondary effects on weapons and skills, more professions to play, cross profession skills to use…

is gw2 better than a bunch of mmos out currently? sure, but it doesn’t mean that professions don’t need a lot of improvement. to say otherwise is silly and does nothing to improve on the most essential aspects of a combat oriented game.

Iconik.8712:

I love the “combat is shallow” argument. What they’re really saying is “I only have to manage 1 bar and not 38943 of them with convoluted and unneeded skills and bloat.”

Basically, GW and GW2 get rid of the bloat and streamlines combat. It’s optimal and one of the best I’ve ever dealt with.

Im not saying that at all. You can accomplish good combat with only a few buttons. Boss mechanics and class mechanics work into it. Autoattacking until a mob is dead, maybe pressing another button isnt very engaging.

I wish there was more of a reason to use combo fields while leveling. There really isnt any reason to do so. You really can kill a mob with one or two buttons, without getting into combo fields.

Swagger.1459:

but ultimately they designed professions around getting the end user to break out their credit card.

Sorry, what? Care to elaborate on that? I must be misunderstanding that, I don’t think my Guardian has ever tried to convince me buying gems.

Also “limitations” a.k.a. rules are present in every game. Would magic the gathering be better if you had your whole deck in your hand?

They cannot make most bosses more interesting. It’s impossible to see anything that’s happening in a big fight under all the particles so if the boss does anything weird, we’ll automatically miss it and get killed anyway.

You should compare PvP with PvP and Fractals with end-game PvE in other games and not open world PvE with raids in Vindictus(for example).

P.S. Vindictus isn’t popular in USA because the farm/grind there is enormous and asians like games like that.

Wolfheart.1938:

Swagger.1459:

but ultimately they designed professions around getting the end user to break out their credit card.

Sorry, what? Care to elaborate on that? I must be misunderstanding that, I don’t think my Guardian has ever tried to convince me buying gems.

Also “limitations” a.k.a. rules are present in every game. Would magic the gathering be better if you had your whole deck in your hand?

a jedi’s strength flows from the credit card. understand more you will when ascended and legendary gear are revealed.

limitations are paths to the dark side. limitations lead to anger. anger leads to more limitations. more limitations lead to suffering.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Dante.1508:

Viking Jorun.5413:

The people claiming GW2 was “easy” from day 1 obviously didn’t play at launch. Does nobody remember the CONSTANT whining about how the game was “too hard”, especially exploitable dungeons? Had ArenaNet not nerfed the dungeons to allow more players to access them and decreased the difficulty of DEs, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Was this in Beta? because i was in GW2 from day one it opened and i didn’t see any difference in difficulty compared to today, for me the difficulty hasn’t changed at all since day one.

Still pretty shallow tho, compared to other MMO’s.

It wasn’t in Beta. It was constant in reference to Ascalonian Catacombs, or the Fire Elemental, to name two. It was “common knowledge” that to try taking the Fire Elemental meant repair costs two or three times. And that AC couldn’t be done short of expert runners.

The AC complaints were pretty constant and unjustified, as I think you’re implying.

DE nerfs like Fire Ele however, were entirely justified. The thing was technically broken and entirely inappropriate for open world content where it was at.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Even to this day, Arah Path 4 takes time, dedication and a lot of coordination. If the rest of the game were Arah path 4, however, nobody but the hardcore crowd would bother playing the game. If you can’t find your peace in Fractals 70 or soloing Arah runs, perhaps the game isn’t for you. I know for a fact that tPvP isn’t “casual” by any means, so give it a go.

What is this “Arah”? I’m sorry, there is only one dungeon and one path.

The only way the combat really progresses is when u start the game and your skill bars are still not full and you need to unlock skills. after that, you play with the same stuff the whole game, and usually play the same exact way in most situations. You only really switch up strategy and build for fun, not really for improved tactics. Professions vary enough to satisfy me, but they all play the same for the most part since each skill bar is somewhat similar for the most part with variations between ranged/melee and aoe/single target. Traits aren’t that deep. You don’t have many logical options to take, there are usually traits which are obviously suited to the weapon your using, making everyone using the same weapon basically the same.

Another thing that annoys me is conditions being the new form of conditions and hexes. Hexes added flavors to certain profession in gw1, in gw2 the conditions make these effects really bland with a bunch of universal condition removals.

I wish there were higher levels of specialization, more customimizable skill bars and traits, more combos and skillful play. less dodging. getting two invulnerable saves every so often isn’t deep, and when it’s one of the few defenses against getting one shotted by a boss, it’s just sorta stupid.

My opinion on the whole clusterfudge of the combat and professions of the game. Still a good game and fun. A lot of good things in it, just also an equal amount of bad things.

It is indeed quite shallow and there aren’t that many differend builds. Hopefully they’ll add new skills soon enough.

Master of Timespace.2548:

It is indeed quite shallow and there aren’t that many differend builds. Hopefully they’ll add new skills soon enough.

And then you’ll have whole population using THE NEW skills, and after 2 months they are not so new anymore so once again crowd will go back to square one.

Problem is that people expect too much from pve environment. You are not up against computer that beat Kasparov, you are facing an algorithm. A piece of code that says “go to player, use skill this and that, repeat”, basicly…i oversimplified it but its end result in most cases.

Go to wvw or spvp where you are challenged by other players that are able to adapt and answer to your actions. There you can see true potential of dynamic, actiony combat gw2 has.

A good solution to solve the problem would be to make skills more rewarding when used in certain combos. Heck, they could even add combo finishers/fields to existing skills and also make new combo fields/finishers.

An example is guardian greatsword skill #3 and #4. If you use #4 first, then #3, you get some seconds of retaliation aswell. This means it rewards the player for using the two skills in a certain way, rather than just pressing 3 then 4.

Another example is, engineer. If you use toolbelt skill F1 with healing turret, then double tap skill #4 on shield, you get additional area healing.

Of course there are alot more of these, but I think they should add some kind of system on skills, that made them more rewarding when used in a certain way(not only combo finishers/fields, but anything. Aslong as it rewards players who use the skills properly).

kRiza krimos.1637:

There you can see true potential of dynamic, actiony combat gw2 has.

GW2 has action combat? wow, i had no idea… strange, i have yet to see any action-like combat yet.

FYI my idea of action combat is like God of war hack and slash game play, or like Dragon Nest’s crazy hotkey spam constant seizure inducing screen explosion.

This upcoming game also looks like it has action like combat, but depending on the game play it could still be a point and click… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZPXri5LSAw

etiolate.9185:

If confusion still hit hard the OP would have to learn to play.

Just saying.

I think the point is that you don’t have to l2p in this game (except perhaps in sPvP for the few who do that).

There is some complexity that you could use to your benefit….but you don’t need to. The game is purposefully dumbed down (as I see it) to accomodate the masses of casuals.

In PvE you can muck about, be an idiot and still win. In WvW you can zerg around with the rest. Bottom line you can be a total idiot and still be a hero, which is the exact opposite of l2p.

I think that’s why I don’t feel that this game is heroic because it’s all too simplistic. The fact that you can defeat a lot of enemies with auto attack and sit back is a testament to how shallow the game’s combat system is.

Now, you can make it spectacular by dodging and using all your skills…but you don’t need to…

Gehenna.3625:

etiolate.9185:

If confusion still hit hard the OP would have to learn to play.

Just saying.

I think the point is that you don’t have to l2p in this game (except perhaps in sPvP for the few who do that).

There is some complexity that you could use to your benefit….but you don’t need to. The game is purposefully dumbed down (as I see it) to accomodate the masses of casuals.

In PvE you can muck about, be an idiot and still win. In WvW you can zerg around with the rest. Bottom line you can be a total idiot and still be a hero, which is the exact opposite of l2p.

I think that’s why I don’t feel that this game is heroic because it’s all too simplistic. The fact that you can defeat a lot of enemies with auto attack and sit back is a testament to how shallow the game’s combat system is.

Now, you can make it spectacular by dodging and using all your skills…but you don’t need to…

The learn to play aspect is something that is really nice in a lot of action type games from first person shooters to action rpg’s… Every time you play you know you are getting better as you can do things you weren’t able to do before with the same gear. Even if there is no new content, getting better at the game is a goal too. The learning curve for PvE in GW2 is ridiculously low. It doesn’t even take 1 hour to learn how to play for most of PvE w/o any real difficulties.

Been saying this for some time now, but it wasn’t until I went back to Rift I realized just how shallow. I might give GW2 another try in 6 or 8 months, we will see.

Kurakura.7281:

The learn to play aspect is something that is really nice in a lot of action type games from first person shooters to action rpg’s… Every time you play you know you are getting better as you can do things you weren’t able to do before with the same gear. Even if there is no new content, getting better at the game is a goal too. The learning curve for PvE in GW2 is ridiculously low. It doesn’t even take 1 hour to learn how to play for most of PvE w/o any real difficulties.

The difference is that in other games you do need to learn some basics or you will die a lot or constantly. In this game, not a problem…you can be an idiot and feel like a hero or have half a brain and get the feeling it’s….well, lacking.

The fact that it’s ridiculously simply to learn is exactly what the OP is talking about. And the fact that even though it’s so easy but you don’t even need to learn it makes it only worse in my view.

Kurakura.7281:

Gehenna.3625:

etiolate.9185:

If confusion still hit hard the OP would have to learn to play.

Just saying.

I think the point is that you don’t have to l2p in this game (except perhaps in sPvP for the few who do that).

There is some complexity that you could use to your benefit….but you don’t need to. The game is purposefully dumbed down (as I see it) to accomodate the masses of casuals.

In PvE you can muck about, be an idiot and still win. In WvW you can zerg around with the rest. Bottom line you can be a total idiot and still be a hero, which is the exact opposite of l2p.

I think that’s why I don’t feel that this game is heroic because it’s all too simplistic. The fact that you can defeat a lot of enemies with auto attack and sit back is a testament to how shallow the game’s combat system is.

Now, you can make it spectacular by dodging and using all your skills…but you don’t need to…

The learn to play aspect is something that is really nice in a lot of action type games from first person shooters to action rpg’s… Every time you play you know you are getting better as you can do things you weren’t able to do before with the same gear. Even if there is no new content, getting better at the game is a goal too. The learning curve for PvE in GW2 is ridiculously low. It doesn’t even take 1 hour to learn how to play for most of PvE w/o any real difficulties.

I think it’s a problem with the design of the very core mechanics of the game and how they with one another. This game encourages dodging but only by pressing an invincibility toggle, which isn’t really dodging at all. You can move to dodge, but enemy attacks don’t synch to their animations so it’s not entirely sensible to move to dodge. Ranged attacks auto-track the player, making them rely on an invincibility toggle. The game wants to make movement matter but its simply can’t. To top it all off, the very telegraphing of attacks is done so poorly that you’re better off just not giving a kitten about dodging and are better off instead spamming dps, and cycling your reflect and heal skills off cooldown without really paying attention to enemy attacks and you do this for nearly every single encounter.