Guild Wars 2

ok first off this is sort of a repost due to code of conduct pollicys

a while back i posted a topic on the current formula for removeing the new infusions from your ascended gear witch basicly involves useing a transmutation splliter according to dulfy
from my point of view and many others ive discussed it with rationaly its generaly agreed that this is leaning towards pay to win
for anyone who would dispute this let me spell it out for you what the gameing community view as pay to win

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win
//quote. Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

that being said this gem store bought item is going to allow those who buy them to get use out the infusions they are building and continue upgradeing them at a faster rate than those who refuse to pay
im fine with mini pets armour skins and most other stuff on the gem store coz those items have no impact on the game play but this clearly will allow you an advantage in maxing one of those new infusions and has an impact on game play
and before you say it yes i know this will take a long time with the current formula and a billion gold but i dont think this formula will stay the same when the fractal lvl cap is raised as they have promised us
im guessing we will get higher lvl infusions droping at higher lvls or something so we can build our AR faster and more cost effectively
atm we have all the AR we are gona need till the cap is raised but according to dulfy we will need 75 AR for lvl 59 fractals and current max asumeing you have standerd +5 infusions you AR max will be 85
i ask myselff will that cut it when we can do fractals lvl 69 and the answer is no so these new infusions will be a must have when that time comes
i imagine we will be able to make some +10 infusions and those will get us through but again cap gets raised latter and you gota remove them all and your only means of recovering thme is via a gem store bought item its the year 2015 and your geting 1 gem for 10 gold so you gota farm a billion gold to remove all those infuisons or pay cash and do it quickly and be free to enjoy the game instead of grind gold
i jest of course on the figures for gem prices but you get my point currently and prob for the forseeable future buying gems for gold is not good value for your gold. i allready feel like its not good value for the effort to make that gold
you can argue that we can buy it for in game gold and thus its not pay to win your entitled to your point of view
personaly i allready bought my transmutation sllpiters for a later date and i did it with RL cash coz i dont wana be forced in to farming for the next 5 weeks instead of playing the game
and i asure you while you are working hard farming to buy these gems i will have an advantage over you coz i will be progressing deeper in to the fractals and building up my infuison’s

so who else agrees that this method of recovery is wrong and thinks it needs to be changed now before we are all so invested in it cash wise for it to be too late for Anet to go back on without screwing over players who have spent the time/money building a high AR infusion

seems like we need a seperate item for recovering these infusions bought in game not via gem store and at a fair price like say 1g to remove an infusion
its not too late for you to remedy this Anet the community proly dont care atm coz we dont realy need them yet but when we reach that point where we do need them you are going to be faceing allot of complaints

p.s this thread is not about grammar or punctuation i welcome all constructive feedback except grammar or punctuation lessons

p.p.s allso one thing that may make this irelevant i havent yet goten confirmation on is if these transmutation splliters actualy do remove the new infusions or not in my previouse post a player posted he tried it and it didnt work
i asked if he was removeing the new kind of infuision or the old one and got no reply my info on removeing them comes from dulfy and they are not often wrong
i asume the guy tryed to remove the wrong kind of infusion

Its not pay to win, not even close.

Gem Store = / = Pay to Win

EVERYTHING in the gem store can be purchased using in game gold which you can earn from playing.

And on top of that getting “back” infusions is even easier now with the new gem store item for removing upgrades to gear. Which again is attainable with gold.

thefinnster.7105:

that being said this gem store bought item is going to allow those who buy them to get use out the infusions they are building and continue upgradeing them at a faster rate than those who refuse to pay

How does being able to retrieve infusions allow you to upgrade faster?

A Updgrade Extractor on the Gem Store cost 250 Gem so 14 Gold each. I plan on putting a +10 AR on each of my Infused items (2 rings and 1 Back Item). This will give me 70 AR which is enough for level 50 to 59. After that with the Armor, I’ll get 100 Agony Resistance. At this rate, we probably gonna need 85 AR for level 60-69 and 100 AR for level 70-79. This mean that you won’t need any Extractor or buying anything on the gem store for a long time. When we’ll reach that point, then it will be the time we think about this issue, but for now its seems pointless and Anet have all the time they need to think about it.

Lexandro.1456:

Its not pay to win, not even close.

Gem Store = / = Pay to Win

EVERYTHING in the gem store can be purchased using in game gold which you can earn from playing.

And on top of that getting “back” infusions is even easier now with the new gem store item for removing upgrades to gear. Which again is attainable with gold.

well as i said your entitled to your point view and as i said while your grinding for gold my rl cash will buy me an advantage over you

secondly do we even know these new items remove infusions and not just runes/gems/sigils/ect you may be jumping the gun there
and once again a gem store bought item that my whole point im not happy with that

the gem store works fine so long as the items you buy in it dont effect game play or buy you an advantage over other players RL cash for esential items as i suspect these will become is certainly to my advantage

You…do know you can buy gems with gold right?

You can buy these things for less than 20g.

can anyone confirm if the new upgrade extractor dose actualy remove the new infusions or are we working from blind asumption coz the text on the item isnt very specific as what it constitutes as an upgrade

I can’t confirm that yet, since i didn’t use one yet. But anyway as i pointed it out in my post. You don’t need a extractor since you can easily get to 100 AR which will probably be enough to get you to level 79 in fractal WITHOUT HAVING TO EXTRACT A SINGLE TIME. And only by crafting +10 AR Infusion, which are not that difficult to do.

that al sounds good if they stop fractals at lvl 79 but how far will they push the fractals
its proly without a doubt the best adition to the game so far and many of us will want to take it farther than that
Anet will keep adding more content ot it and we will keep pushing the envelope they would be mad not to and asumeing we do go beyond 79 one day we can then argue 100 AR will not cut it at 80+ posibly leading to buying these items
upgrade extractor vs transmutation spliter is certainly a step in the right direction if it actualy works but personaly i still dont belive it should be a gem store item for this feature

thefinnster.7105:

Lexandro.1456:

Its not pay to win, not even close.

Gem Store = / = Pay to Win

EVERYTHING in the gem store can be purchased using in game gold which you can earn from playing.

And on top of that getting “back” infusions is even easier now with the new gem store item for removing upgrades to gear. Which again is attainable with gold.

well as i said your entitled to your point view and as i said while your grinding for gold my rl cash will buy me an advantage over you

secondly do we even know these new items remove infusions and not just runes/gems/sigils/ect you may be jumping the gun there
and once again a gem store bought item that my whole point im not happy with that

the gem store works fine so long as the items you buy in it dont effect game play or buy you an advantage over other players RL cash for esential items as i suspect these will become is certainly to my advantage

I know the new items removes infusions because ive used one already to do exactly that so that I could infuse a ring on an alt. And it even says so in the tooltip for it that it does so specifically. Seriously just stop on that front, you are way off base.

I dont “grind” for gold and you are not “buying” and advantage over me, because;

A.) I already have the Stat infusions
B.) Gold is super easy to earn
C.) There is nothing in the gem store to give you an advantage.

Being able to move out an upgrade and change it is not an advantage. Its a convenience, nothing more.

Lexandro.1456:

Its not pay to win, not even close.

Gem Store = / = Pay to Win

EVERYTHING in the gem store can be purchased using in game gold which you can earn from playing.

And on top of that getting “back” infusions is even easier now with the new gem store item for removing upgrades to gear. Which again is attainable with gold.

It’s very pay to win. Grinding an hour gets you what? 2-3g on average? Or I can go to work for an hour, buy 800 gems with lots of money left over, and be 5 times richer, in game and IRL.

That is the purest definition of P2W.

I can get 10 gold in an hour running a few dungeons.

Again its not pay to win because there is nothing in the gem store that give you an advantage in gameplay. It is merely convenience items, made to make things simpler for people who want them.

And your reasoning is flawed because I am going to work and earning money, that I keep making me richer than you, as you spent money in the game to get gold that I earned simply by playing outside of work.

I have the gold and didnt spend any RL cash to get it. I am the richer one.

Aeonblade.8709:

It’s very pay to win. Grinding an hour gets you what? 2-3g on average? Or I can go to work for an hour, buy 800 gems with lots of money left over, and be 5 times richer, in game and IRL.

That is the purest definition of P2W.

What are you winning in this scenario?

He got to play the game for an hour while you were at work.. seems to me like he’s the winner.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Aeonblade.8709:

It’s very pay to win. Grinding an hour gets you what? 2-3g on average? Or I can go to work for an hour, buy 800 gems with lots of money left over, and be 5 times richer, in game and IRL.

That is the purest definition of P2W.

What are you winning in this scenario?

He got to play the game for an hour while you were at work.. seems to me like he’s the winner.

/facepalm

I have easier to access to things in game because of that work, so while he grinds mobs for 8 hours for money, I work an hour for the same amount of money to buy bought through gems.

I have a net gain of 7 hours over this poor random guy where I can just go do whatever I want in game and not have to farm to get the gold.

But he’s not grinding mobs for 8 hours for money: he’s playing and enjoying the game for 8 hours, and gold happens to be accumulating.

Maybe you just have an unhealthy approach to the game… the size of your gold pile is not an indication of how much you’re “winning”.

And it doesn’t take 8 hours of grinding to get gold either. He is sorely misinformed.

Lexandro.1456:

I dont “grind” for gold and you are not “buying” and advantage over me, because;

A.) I already have the Stat infusions
B.) Gold is super easy to earn
C.) There is nothing in the gem store to give you an advantage.

A.) Stat infusions are not the same thing i am talking about
B.)gold is easy to earn but it takes time if you spend your gold on these items and i spend rl cash you become/stay poor while i remain wealthy
C.) the gem store has many items with slight advantages over other players

an example of c would be my mate who is extreemly wealthy who buys 200 black lion keys at a time and has every combat booster going on him 24/7

your niave if you think there is no advantage to be had from gem store items
most of them are mild and not much of a worth while advantage at all but they are an advantage

Wow. Never thought I’d see the day when people advocated P2W. This is amazing. Good luck OP, here is some flame resistant armor

lol gona need it it seems you can show them the definition of p2w and point out why it is thus but they still deny it is shame realy if they could see it and let anet know they disagree with it we might see a change for the better thats not gona hurt your pocket so much in the future
for me thats what this topic is all about seems ot have changed in to what folk see as p2w tho and thats not my intention with this thread

It’s not pay to win. With the current gold / gem exchange it would cost 22-24 gold. Only few upgrades are worth more. So in most cases you simply destroy the old upgrade by placing a new one.

Albadaran.1283:

It’s not pay to win. With the current gold / gem exchange it would cost 22-24 gold. Only few upgrades are worth more. So in most cases you simply destroy the old upgrade by placing a new one.

you say only 22-24 gold like its nothing and it is nothing if that was the end of it but its not lets say i make all + 10 infusions and remove them at a later date to make +15 infuisons and thne at 20 -25 and so on till its finaly maxed that not only 22-24g and lets not forget the ever decreasing value of gold for gems

thats a prety big gold sink that can so easily be offset for a few bucks advantage Mr moneybags

thefinnster.7105:

Lexandro.1456:

A.) Stat infusions are not the same thing i am talking about
B.)gold is easy to earn but it takes time if you spend your gold on these items and i spend rl cash you become/stay poor while i remain wealthy
C.) the gem store has many items with slight advantages over other players

an example of c would be my mate who is extreemly wealthy who buys 200 black lion keys at a time and has every combat booster going on him 24/7

your niave if you think there is no advantage to be had from gem store items
most of them are mild and not much of a worth while advantage at all but they are an advantage

You do not get an “advantage over me” in Agony infusions because its not a competitive condition (only occurs in fractals).

Also you missed the point that it is only +1 infusions that can be combined. Those other agony infusions are static and unchanging and CANNOT be merged with +1 unfusions to create increased stats. No amount of RL money will give you more agony infusions, you have to earn them through fractals play.

So your entire premiss is way off base, and your notion of p2win is nonsense.

Oh and in response to the “every booster”, I already have loads of boosters in my bank. Even if you buddy uses them 24/7 the only time he could get an advantage over me is when we are competing (pvp/wvw) however since I also use said boosters when doing so, he has no advantage regardless of how many he buys.

P2W mean that if i pay real money my character will be better that your, not that I will be able to pay to get stuff before other people do.

If you put a thousand dollar into the Gem Store you will be able to get Legendary and Ascended gear faster that people that play the game and get their gold by playing. Its normal. But in the end you will never have a edge over people that don’t pay anything on the gem store. On the other side, someone that play the TP and Sell precursor like crazy can have their stuff even faster than someone buying gem on the store and they never had to put any money on the game.

For now, the system work up until level 79 Fractal. When we reach that point, that you can or cannot extract infusion don’t change a freaking thing since to get +15 you will need 32 of these +10 AR for each +15. So you little 1 +10AR that you so preciously wanna extract for free won’t matter at all since its only 1/32 of the full prices of a +15.

When we reach that point of going higher than 79 fractal level, the system will be modify don’t worry. Most probably, AR will drop in +5 or +10 in higher level so you can craft +15 and +20 in a normal time frame (you know not 2 years of playing 24/7).

Aeonblade.8709:

That is the purest definition of P2W.

Highly doubtful. Let’s inspect the “very definition” referenced by the OP:

thefinnster.7105:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

pay-to-win
(A) Games that let you buy better gear

There is no “better gear” exclusive to the gem shop, neither as a direct offer nor indirect through other means. Max-stat items in GW2 are available in all areas of the game. So this clause of the definition evaluates to false.

(B) or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate

I do not necessarily agree with this part of the definition given by the “Urban Dictionary”. I would agree with “allow you to make better items then everyone else” being p2w, but relaxing this property to also include items obtained “at a faster rate”, although they can otherwise be obtained at a normal rate, is highly dubious. The only version of this definition I would agree with would be the case of “practically unobtainable” items, but this isn’t the case here, either.

But for the sake of argumentation, let’s play along and accept this definition. Then I’d say: yes, this clause evaluates to true, since the gem shop items allow you to speed up acquisition of infused gear.

( C ) and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

This, however, clearly evaluates to false, since the areas of the game that are subject to balancing issues (PvP and WvW) are not influenced by the item infusion. Also, as has been discusses above, since only the “when” and not the “if” of the acquisition is influenced by the gem shop, it is impossible to induce any imbalance in the long run.

To sum up, we have A = false, B = true, and C = false. Now, the definition is not clear of the precedence of the “and” and “or” operations it uses, but it doesn’t matter since in this case, “(A or B ) and C” as well as “A or (B and C)” both evaluate to false.

Hence, we can conclude that the scenario in question is not pay-to-win. q.e.d.

~MRA

Lexandro.1456 uness you are buying alot of black lion keys you are not useing every booster COMBAT boosters only come from black lion chest as opposed ot every other booster you can buy outright in the gem store i wonder why that is could it be because an extra 5% dmg boost is an advantage in game and clearly p2w system
currently you get like 1 combat booster every 10-15 black lion chests and cant buy them directly for a reason COZ IT WOULD BE P2W

Ive been playing for months (nearly a year infact) and have COMBAT boosters in my bank unused. You DO NOT have to buy keys, they drop in the world or can be given for map completion iirc. Also you can “farm” keys, which you obviously don’t know about.

And again I can buy keys with gold if I so chose.

Nothing requires me to pay RL money. False assertion is false.

MRA.4758 good feed back and yes A and C are false in this case and its B im stuck on coz anyone removeing there infusions via gem store bought items are cuting there upgrade time in half and anyone who cant afford those items will be left with the choice of keep upgradeing (and get no use out it) till its maxed or use it half way through and not have optimum AR
we shouldent feel forced in to buying items that effect gameplay via the gem store
its more than a simple convinenace and that dosent sit right with me

Lexandro.1456:

Ive been playing for months (nearly a year infact) and have COMBAT boosters in my bank unused. You DO NOT have to buy keys, they drop in the world or can be given for map completion iirc. Also you can “farm” keys, which you obviously don’t know about.

And again I can buy keys with gold if I so chose.

Nothing requires me to pay RL money. False assertion is false.

oh i dont doubt you have a handfull of them as i do too but your not runing around with them on you 24/7 and if you start useing thme like that youl have none in a few days time or less depending how much you play

How is someone removing it cutting time in half? The removed infusion is useless, unless placed in another slot. Removed infusions CANNOT be used to create increased stat, only +1infs can be combined.

And as I said I use boosters when I pvp or WvW. They are of little to no use in PvE as almost all of the content is faceroll easy, or its zerged to oblivion.

Your argument has been shotdown again and again. Just be adult about it and admit your error and move on.

Lexandro.1456:

How is someone removing it cutting time in half? The removed infusion is useless, unless placed in another slot. Removed infusions CANNOT be used to create increased stat, only +1infs can be combined.

And as I said I use boosters when I pvp or WvW. They are of little to no use in PvE as almost all of the content is faceroll easy, or its zerged to oblivion.

Your argument has been shotdown again and again. Just be adult about it and admit your error and move on.

Just because your opinion is to shoot down his opinion doesn’t mean he made any error. No error was made in having his own opinion.

Try to be a little less insulting as well. It goes a long way to making people agree with you

His error is in the assumptions he had made. He has yet to explain how RL money will get him more infusions, or how removing an infusion (somehow) cuts the upgrade time down, or how “paying” for a convenience item that players asked for and that provides zero gameplay bonus and has zero effect on skills is making the game “pay 2 win”.

how can you not see how it cuts it in half if you do not remove it and continue the upgrade process you have to start from scratch on a fresh infusion
by your logic we could just leave that + 10 in there and make a whole new one and go +15 and and so on and never remove thme coz removeing them is not gona save you any time
every time you wana upgrade this infusion it grows expenentialy that means it doubles if it takes you 1 week to make a +10 its gona take you 2 weeks to make + 11 and so on
and i dono where you are geting your info from but a removed infusion can be upgraded further its not only +1s that combine together 2 +10’s make a +11 and so on
do you even know how this formula works coz im starting to think not

Please tell me where you have an advantage over me in the game by having more AR? in fractal levels? What If I never run fractals and hence never need AR? What if I only run low level fractals? How exactly are you gaining an advantage over me? Thats like saying because you have a legendary you have an advantage over another player with ascended weapons in your group for a dungeon. You are not competing against one another.

If AR worked in pvp or WvW then absolutely you could have an advantage over another player.

Lexandro.1456:

His error is in the assumptions he had made. He has yet to explain how RL money will get him more infusions, or how removing an infusion (somehow) cuts the upgrade time down, or how “paying” for a convenience item that players asked for and that provides zero gameplay bonus and has zero effect on skills is making the game “pay 2 win”.

ok let me break it down for you once more
buying these items with RL cash dosent give me more infusions but it dose negate farm thus leaveing me free to progress in other areas of the game (fact not assumptions)
as to cuting down upgrade time read the previouse post i made
and lastly this is not just a convenience because it effects gameplay when applied to infusions
everlasting mineing pick is a convenience and has next to no impact on game play a agony resist dose and will have even more impact when fractals cap is raised

rest asured ther will come a point you are forced to use the infusion you are building before its maxed if you wana go deeper in to the fractals and unless your prepared to start from scratch again building more infusions removeing them is practicly a must

You assume again that everyone will play ^50 fractals. This is absolutely not the case, I know several people who do not play fractals at all, as they are dedicated WvW players.

How does you having AR affect those players? It doesnt in the slightest. How does you have more AR then myself affect me? It doesnt, not in the slightest.

No matter how you go about it, you have no gameplay advantage over me or another player with agony resistance. Your advantage is over the AI who uses Agony.

And its still not pay to win.

lex the prob here is you just refuse to accept that any advantage in pve is an advantage over another player
its like your unable to accept that unless its pvp then its imposible to be a p2w scenario and because you dont need it and can get it through grind its not p2w
as ive explained many many times throughout this thread you farm stay poor kill the game for yourselff through mindless boreing farm
i will save my gold and work on my next legendery or buy something else worthwhile and have fun playing the game doing exactly what i want and not what i feel like i have to

Again you assume I “grind” for gold and am poor. Neither is the case, I play for fun and earn gold as I do so. I have ascended weapons on most of my alts and will get around to the armour at some point. I dont want any legendaries as to me they are all extremely fugly are rather pointless. So that free’s up a lot of gold and mats that you would otherwise use on a legendary.

No need to spend RL money on the game, when everything I want I get easily with stuffs I earn in the game.

thefinnster you are able to get 100 AR WITHOUT EXTRACTING anything. So your point will only work for when the game will have more that 79 level of fractal. Now if this is your point : 1) i thinks its a bit soon to freak out about it, 2) By this time i’m sure Anet will modify the system (by dropping high level of AR in higher fractal level) so this problem will never be an issue.

So for me you are pointing at a possible future problem that may or may not happen.

thefinnster.7105:

p.p.s allso one thing that may make this irelevant i havent yet goten confirmation on is if these transmutation splliters actualy do remove the new infusions or not in my previouse post a player posted he tried it and it didnt work
i asked if he was removeing the new kind of infuision or the old one and got no reply my info on removeing them comes from dulfy and they are not often wrong
i asume the guy tryed to remove the wrong kind of infusion

I believe that was me, I did use a transmutation splitter on a greatsword that had two WvW Precision Infusions, it destroyed the infusions.

I was moving a GS from my Guard to my Ranger because I got a Ascended weapon box w/stats that better suited my Guardian.

Hope that helps clear that up.

thefinnster.7105:

its like your unable to accept that unless its pvp then its imposible to be a p2w scenario

It has to be pvp for there to be a winner; without a winner, there can be no p2w.

there is no winning in pve, just relative degrees of success/time, therefor pve-only elements can never be p2w.

well good for you im in a similar position i spend 80% of my income on useless mini pets to feed my ocd the rest i salt away while slowly working on legenderys at a very casual pace working on my 6th now
i have next to no demands on my gold and every gem i have bought with game gold til now has as far as ive felt been totaly optional
i dont grind either and a make enough to feed my mini pet habbit

you may be willing to sit the fractals out me i dont i wana enjoy all aspects of the game and not progressing in fractals would feel like a cop out to me

what i realy wish you could understand that out of everything i have ever bought via the gem store up till now i have felt has been 100% totaly optional
i want to continue progressing in fractals and dont feel like i have a choice with these items
its buy them or fall behind

thefinnster.7105:

its buy them or fall behind

fall behind who/what? who are you racing and what are you racing them to?

thanks for confirming that wetpaw i think the prob was that those are not the new infusions that i think dulfy was reffering to like i supsected
but given the new option of upgrade extractor the previouse method (if it ever worked) is now redundent

GrandmaFunk.3052:

thefinnster.7105:

its buy them or fall behind

fall behind who/what? who are you racing and what are you racing them to?

not that i care about it but you do know they are releaseing a fractals leaderboard many will want there name on that

for me my goal is simply to push myselff to the limit that fractals will allow for greater chalange and keep up with my friends who will allso be doing the same

Look I can understand you feel compelled to use RL money for stuffs you want, and I have no quibble with you doing so that’s your choice. And again I understand you may want to push yourself in fractals to gain higher level challenges.

But not everyone feels this way, and you are not actively competing with other players by doing so. And we have yet to even learn what criteria the leaderboards for fractals will be, nor to how many places the leaderboard will run. Even then there is nothing to “win”, all you get is your name on a list.

That said, do enjoy yourself in fractals because that’s what the game is for after all.

Since when was “do something faster” part of P2W? People need to stop changing terms to suit their needs. If I am able to play more than someone, thus doing things faster am I winning over them? Should we stop letting other people play more because oh no, they’re going to gear/level/whatever faster? Unless the store starts selling things that give an actual advantage over someone, it’s not P2W. Especially since you can use gold to buy anything off the gem store.

from what i have read first to reach a lvl in fractal will have the highest rank on the leaderboard i.e i reach lvl 100 first my name is top of the leaderboard anyone who subesquently reaches 100 after me will be placed second and so on so in a sence there is a degree of competition as far as that leaderboard is concerned (only realy glory hunter) but again i couldent care less if im first and not even trying to