stealth - wasn't it planned differently?

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Posted by: Tman.6349

Tman.6349

Answer to OP, despite this threads tangent, is NO, stealth was never meant to work like that at all. Though a follow up question might be, “are you just making up a hypothetical devil’s advocate sort of question to postulate some more stealth hate (really thief hate; check mesmer, ranger, engineer and their lack of ‘revealed status’) that we find in every tenth or so ‘suggestions’ post and pretending it’s a new topic while trying to gain advocation of your ‘idea’?”

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Posted by: Amiron.1067

Amiron.1067

I prefer stealth as is. It isn’t stupid permanent like stealth in other MMO’s, and weaving in and out of stealth for mesmers/thieves becomes an art in and of itself that I find both challenging and fun.

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Posted by: Kaizer.7135

Kaizer.7135

Your second argument is rather funny. Out of initiative, lol… Yes, then you stealth and have all of it back before even dropping out of stealth. There is a reason you can perma stealth. Its the initiative system that break the stealth system to begin with – no cooldowns, few limitations.

>Person complaining about Thief mechanics
>Doesn’t even know how they work

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Posted by: Garb Cost.3718

Garb Cost.3718

I don’t really get the thief rage… I don’t necessarily struggle against thieves in sPvP (I play guradian/ranger) but I do get smashed by a good one every now and then – This makes me roll my thief and get destroyed because, despite being nearly 80, I clearly don’t have the patience to properly learn how to play it.

Essentially, kudos to those good thieves in sPvP – a lot of the time you just see morons spamming “2” (which is probably what I do on the rare chance I play my thief) or taking on 3 people because they think they are better than they are.

Having said the above, a stealthed thief in sPvP means I get the node so maybe that’s why I don’t get the rage going on.

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Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

Your second argument is rather funny. Out of initiative, lol… Yes, then you stealth and have all of it back before even dropping out of stealth. There is a reason you can perma stealth. Its the initiative system that break the stealth system to begin with – no cooldowns, few limitations.

>Person complaining about Thief mechanics
>Doesn’t even know how they work

>Wins the argument
>Thieves get nerfs

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Posted by: Ethics.4519

Ethics.4519

I know were throwing out random ideas, and it will probably get nowhere. first of all, dots revealing stealth would be horrible.

Secondly, I think reveal should be as long as the player stayed stealthed. If that thief wants to HS in blinding powder 10 times, fine, but then once he’s out of stealth, he can’t stealth again for 30 seconds or so.

RIP in peace Robert

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Posted by: Teofa Tsavo.9863

Teofa Tsavo.9863

ANET had the solution to the DPS/rogue stealth issue. No stealth. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Assassin

They changed a lot of things skill wise in this game supposedly for “balance”, and then for some reason felt compelled to bring in a mechanic, stealth, that undoubtedly has caused the most balance problems in the history of all MMO type PvP.

Either they arrogantly assumed they could fix what no one else could, or worse, they knew full well the issues, and went with attracting the lolrogue demographic knowing what they were getting into.

Whatever. Assassin as implemented in GW1 was innovative and removed the stealth controversy. Thief is just another iteration of “everyrogue” with all the baggage attached.

A pretty big step backwards.

Ley lines. The perfect solution to deadlines and writers block. Now in an easy open Can.

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Posted by: Deepcuts.9740

Deepcuts.9740

I always read about how I have to learn to counter stealth.
Even the most noob Thief out there can kill 99% of Rangers.
Yes, my only class is a Ranger.
Question is: Do thieves have to learn anything about Ranger mechanics? NO.
They just have to stealth, regen and back at it. So much fun having balance.
And do not get me started with that 4 second joke Sick em.
I guess when I do succeed in killing a Thief, most of the time the Thief will think that somehow he did something wrong, or the lag was to blame. He will never say: Ok, that Ranger is good.
Even Thieves say that Stealth is totally over powered in WvW. I rest my case.

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Posted by: kelman.9451

kelman.9451

When I first heard about stealth in GW2 (I think it was long before Beta) it sounded more like this:

When you’re hit in stealth, you will be revealed for a short amount of time. Dots will reveal the stealthed character as long as he takes damage from it.

Wouldn’t this be a more interesting stealth-mechanic and more fun to 90% of the playerbase? What do you think?

and this is how it works in WoW last I remember, and how it should be I agree.

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Posted by: selan.8354

selan.8354

Thieves and mesmers should have a skill to reveal other stealthed thieves and mesmers.

true, but i think all classes should have access to some stealth revealing skills. i do like the idea with making it some sort of boon that can be removed if thief or mes is not careful enough.
but again thief class needs rework so they have other defenses besides stealth. lots of berserker thieves can do insane dmg atm as they have stealth and mobility to get in and out of combat quickly.it does require some skill, but i think stealth should be less and thief might need to think twice before speccing pure berserk, but they need other stuff to compensate so they can actually survive without heavy stealth.
same with mes.

Lv 80 glamour Mesmer Triforce Mesmerpower PU mes,Lv 80 power necro
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Posted by: Sanduskel.1850

Sanduskel.1850

I have several thieves and I agree that stealth is laughably broken in this game. I find it ridiculously easy to down multiple enemies due to my ability to perma stealth at will after the last patch. Anet made it much easier to perma stealth, the opposite of what many of we thieves wanted. I strongly encourage that you persistantly send respectful feedback to ANET about the ability to stealth while in combat. I would like me thieves to offer a challenge again.

This is a blatant lie, it’s now harder to gain pseudopermenant stealth than before the patch.

Also, I seriously can’t believe the amount of people in this thread who haven’t even played a Thief commenting on what a Thief does and how. Half of you haven’t heard of the revealed debuff and the other half doesn’t even know how long Thieves can stay in stealth for in reality.

This isn’t a lie at all. I now find permastealth to be much easier than prior to the dec 10th patch. That’s because we got higher initiative regeneration. That is a fact.

OP’d thief, lol

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Posted by: Siobhan.3582

Siobhan.3582

Thieves and mesmers should have a skill to reveal other stealthed thieves and mesmers.

No, it should be Stealthed players can see Stealthed players. That way Thieves become instant counters to Thieves in any 1v1 situation.
However both can still use their Sneak Attack mechanic on each other while in Stealth.

.

If you played Dark Age of Camelot (had 3 realms and 6 total classes that had perm stealth), it worked this way.

There were factors since stealth was an actual skill line, but still it was really nice. Having an assassin on your team that was waiting near the team healer to counter any other sneaks was viable and fun role.

That one person.

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Posted by: Kontrolle.3514

Kontrolle.3514

its the most ridicoulus implenentation ever in gaming history and a total funkiller.
I started gw2 with around ~10-12 other people and now im the last one left. Most of them quit because of this.

But hey thief wasnt enough, now we can enjoy perma-stealth mesmers too, awesome.

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Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

ANET had the solution to the DPS/rogue stealth issue. No stealth. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Assassin

They changed a lot of things skill wise in this game supposedly for “balance”, and then for some reason felt compelled to bring in a mechanic, stealth, that undoubtedly has caused the most balance problems in the history of all MMO type PvP.

Either they arrogantly assumed they could fix what no one else could, or worse, they knew full well the issues, and went with attracting the lolrogue demographic knowing what they were getting into.

Whatever. Assassin as implemented in GW1 was innovative and removed the stealth controversy. Thief is just another iteration of “everyrogue” with all the baggage attached.

A pretty big step backwards.

Funny thing about that…
Assassins got beaten by the nerf bat a lot as well, to the point were in AB’s they were pretty bad (not really assassin’s, since they would fail to take down the target unless they had some sort of hadicap). Either way… they got nerfed a lot, to what point is arbitrary…
A good example was the BoA build. Which was very valid for the assassin being an assassin.

The deep issue with thief stealth, assassins… the rogue archetype is: people want a fair fight.
:\ Though if you look up about thieves, assassins, rogues, ninjas and whatnot… their ways are not exactly fair or orthodox in warfare/combat….

Funny there’s a thread on the thief’s forum right now, saying devour venom is OP…

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Posted by: Elthurien.8356

Elthurien.8356

The deep issue with thief stealth, assassins… the rogue archetype is: people want a fair fight.

I’d delve even further and say that the deeper issue is that people want to win. Some people, instead of looking to improve themselves, find excuses for losing aka “I’m not bad, X Mechanic is OP”.

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Posted by: Easlay.3297

Easlay.3297

When I first heard about stealth in GW2 (I think it was long before Beta) it sounded more like this:

When you’re hit in stealth, you will be revealed for a short amount of time. Dots will reveal the stealthed character as long as he takes damage from it.

Wouldn’t this be a more interesting stealth-mechanic and more fun to 90% of the playerbase? What do you think?

and this is how it works in WoW last I remember, and how it should be I agree.

and as rogue on wow i can tell you: right, but on WoW we have:
– perma stun almost
– 2 incapacitates for 10 sec
– interrupts spam
– disarm
– magic debuff removal and immunity for a short period
– perma heal uptime
– sprint that no other classes have
– perma slow on hits and heal reduce
– teleports
– high evasion uptime for phisical damage

is a totally different class that one…tons of survivability, damage burst AND controls, and if u want u could almost perma stealth like here, but with so much tools is useless; rly i see more a threat a rogue on WoW than a thief on GW2 lulz, but is nosense u want to compare them..

[OSC] Easlay Koorst – Thief
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Posted by: Docherty.8372

Docherty.8372

Stealth isn’t exactly OP, just extremely tedious. It’s just not fun, the stealther can effectively deny their opponent the opportunity to even play the game, that’s the crime – this is supposed to be a competitive game! Who exactly green-lighted this atrociously naive mechanic? Is this your first PvP game? Be honest…

GW2 will be used as an example in years to come, of how not to design counter-play: “I know what would be cool, if the Thief’s opponent just spent half the fight running around wildly swinging at thin air, or just looking out the window at some birds or something, yeah – it’ll work great, everyone will love it – they’ll put this kitten in the next Olympics!”

Me, I like to spend the downtime daydreaming about better games – when they said Anet changed, they weren’t joking. Some joker’s drawing a salary, and sitting around nerfing Thief sword and somehow managing to make Rangers even worse – talk about wasted money – you’re paying someone to drive away the few players you’ve managed to retain this long! Now that’s trolling!

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Posted by: Khallis.5708

Khallis.5708

Thieves and mesmers should have a skill to reveal other stealthed thieves and mesmers.

No, it should be Stealthed players can see Stealthed players. That way Thieves become instant counters to Thieves in any 1v1 situation.
However both can still use their Sneak Attack mechanic on each other while in Stealth.

dumbest idea ever, unless of course you plan to move that philosophy over to every class. the only counter for an engineer is another engineer, the only counter for a warrior is another warrior.

I mean why should the only counter for a stealthed thief be another thief.

this has been tried in other games I remember DAOC had something like this where you could only see stealth if you were a stealth class … it failed pretty miserably.

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Posted by: Burnfall.9573

Burnfall.9573

Thieves and mesmers should have a skill to reveal other stealthed thieves and mesmers.

Rangers have that skill. “sic’ em.” The pet will reveal those in stealth.

for 4 seconds on a 40 sec. cooldown while it takes away an important utility skill slot – I don’t think anyone feels like it’s worth it

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Sic_%27Em%22

Also in my experience including other rangers, “sic em” only work when it want to. 70%-80% of time when i use it on a thief, the thief was still able to stealth.

Advocate of Justice, Liberty and Truth

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Posted by: Tman.6349

Tman.6349

NO NO NO NO NO!!!! This is a thinly disguised, underhanded, contrived, psychological troll post where the OP is using a pseudo-question to subplant his ‘ideas of what should be’ into your mind…hence the discussion INSTEAD of a simple ‘yes or no answer’ to his proposed ‘question’. This is disengenuine to you the reader for one. The answer to ‘THE QUESTION’ is an unequivocal NO! Stealthing was never in any way, shape, or form ‘meant’ to behave as you ‘recall/suggest’ and that’s absolute. Very clever sir, even if it is as deceptive as the ‘stealthing tactic’ that you obviously oppose.

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Posted by: Stinja.9612

Stinja.9612

The answer to ‘THE QUESTION’ is an unequivocal NO! Stealthing was never in any way, shape, or form ‘meant’ to behave as you ‘recall/suggest’ and that’s absolute. Very clever sir, even if it is as deceptive as the ‘stealthing tactic’ that you obviously oppose.

Careful…He’s traited his deceptions recharge 20% faster! I don’t think there’s a thief out there at this point that wouldn’t like some survival steroids like warrior has (maybe something like zerker stance that recharges ini instead (Meditation of the Reaper maybe?). The whole nerf stealth thing just gets way outta hand constantly and Im shocked that sandy over there isnt banned yet with the epic level of trolling that occurs in the thief forums alone….

That being said people act like channeled skills don’t track you even if you’re stealthed, binding blade tracks you in stealth, all of your shadow steps and evades are canceled/countered by a guardian circle or lines. An alert Ranger has plenty of ways to deal with and dispatch glassy one shot thieves. You’ve clearly never experienced the hell known as a Last refuge de-stealth if you have imagine a well timed Sic’em on top of that…. All else fails tell me one other class that can step on a WvW stealth trap that negates pretty much an entire 30 points of traits in a trait line (minors included) with no way to counter it except for fleeing.

These “the right way stealth should be” ideas are tiresome anet would have changed it by now if that wasn’t intended. Ive read a few of these yet no one ever mentions the encounter in which they got bodied by said thief(always a thief too not a mesmer?) in great detail or shows video evidence of this greatly needed nerf! Did they have all the WvW buffs? Is it possible said player had an extra 500+ power through lust/leech/foods on top of being full glass spike? Am i made of paper myself?
It just seems odd to me that so many people have no clue what it takes to play a thief well against good/equally skilled players when outnumbered and how little room for error you have if you want to succeed. Embrace what you hate learn the strengths and weaknesses of that class and its mechanics and youll have a better gaming experience if thats too much Embrace the zerg, few thieves have the stones to dive into a zerg alone. Thus stealth problems solved.

I may be harsh but i care deeply about the game.
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Posted by: Reikou.7068

Reikou.7068

this is supposed to be a competitive game!

And in the competitive format of the game, stealth is fine.

If you want to talk about competitive, at least talk about the right format.

Reikou/Reira/Iroha/Sengiku/Rinoka/Kuruse/Sakuho/Kinae/Yuzusa/Kikurin/Otoha/Hasue/Mioko
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Posted by: Docherty.8372

Docherty.8372

this is supposed to be a competitive game!

And in the competitive format of the game, stealth is fine.

No it’s not. It will never be fine in PvP combat, because most of us have better things to do than sit there and twiddle thumbs for 50% of every combat – like wash the dishes, or walk the dog, in fact – there is some drying paint I need to go watch.

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Posted by: Auesis.7301

Auesis.7301

this is supposed to be a competitive game!

And in the competitive format of the game, stealth is fine.

No it’s not. It will never be fine in PvP combat, because most of us have better things to do than sit there and twiddle thumbs for 50% of every combat – like wash the dishes, or walk the dog, in fact – there is some drying paint I need to go watch.

I can tell you have literally never set foot in non-hotjoin sPvP with another Thief in the lobby. Ever.

Stealth is beyond worthless as a mechanic in sPvP. Any Thief that takes traits for it and uses it to even a slight amount doesn’t deserve to be in tournaments for any reason.

Gnome Child [Gc]
Resident Thief

(edited by Auesis.7301)

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

When I first heard about stealth in GW2 (I think it was long before Beta) it sounded more like this:

When you’re hit in stealth, you will be revealed for a short amount of time. Dots will reveal the stealthed character as long as he takes damage from it.

Wouldn’t this be a more interesting stealth-mechanic and more fun to 90% of the playerbase? What do you think?

You could very well have just said “delete thief” because this idea would make thieves a waste of coding.

This.

Unless you have a coherent, well-thought out plan to replace pretty much everything about the Thief profession to make it viable in WvW or sPvP without Stealth, including COMPLETE reworks to trait trees, utility skills and access to buffs and debuffs, changes to damage co-efficients and COUNTLESS other variables, then this is the dumbest thing I would ever see in any video game in my entire life, bar none (except maybe the whole thing about Master Chief blindly following 343 Guilty Spark and nearly destroying all life in the universe, or perhaps Team Plasma looking to stop pokemon battles by…battling with pokemon).

Thief, as a profession, would literally be a waste of space, time, effort and data. Even after my thousands of hours invested and legendaries acquired for my character, I would delete her on the spot and play a different game without ever looking back, and I would really hate to do that because I love this game.

Since we’re on the topic of making classes worthless, I’d be interested to hear any plans for Eles in sPvP. If this disaster of a thread bore any truth for any reason at any point in time, then we’d have perhaps one build left that would be mediocre at best. Eles don’t even have that at tournament level.

Assassins in GW1 worked very well without stealth.
That aside I believe the only balance needed is to give EVERY class a long-cooldown ability to reveal stealthed targets. Simple as that.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: RoRo.8270

RoRo.8270

I feel that blocking a stealth attack or evading it should reveal the thief

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Posted by: Easlay.3297

Easlay.3297

but would be nosense evading or blocking something u haven’t even idea is going to happens…is metagame :P

[OSC] Easlay Koorst – Thief
Sfr

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Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

When I first heard about stealth in GW2 (I think it was long before Beta) it sounded more like this:

When you’re hit in stealth, you will be revealed for a short amount of time. Dots will reveal the stealthed character as long as he takes damage from it.

Wouldn’t this be a more interesting stealth-mechanic and more fun to 90% of the playerbase? What do you think?

You could very well have just said “delete thief” because this idea would make thieves a waste of coding.

This.

Unless you have a coherent, well-thought out plan to replace pretty much everything about the Thief profession to make it viable in WvW or sPvP without Stealth, including COMPLETE reworks to trait trees, utility skills and access to buffs and debuffs, changes to damage co-efficients and COUNTLESS other variables, then this is the dumbest thing I would ever see in any video game in my entire life, bar none (except maybe the whole thing about Master Chief blindly following 343 Guilty Spark and nearly destroying all life in the universe, or perhaps Team Plasma looking to stop pokemon battles by…battling with pokemon).

Thief, as a profession, would literally be a waste of space, time, effort and data. Even after my thousands of hours invested and legendaries acquired for my character, I would delete her on the spot and play a different game without ever looking back, and I would really hate to do that because I love this game.

Since we’re on the topic of making classes worthless, I’d be interested to hear any plans for Eles in sPvP. If this disaster of a thread bore any truth for any reason at any point in time, then we’d have perhaps one build left that would be mediocre at best. Eles don’t even have that at tournament level.

Assassins in GW1 worked very well without stealth.
That aside I believe the only balance needed is to give EVERY class a long-cooldown ability to reveal stealthed targets. Simple as that.

I like how people are mentioning the assassin from GW1… the one major thing they have in common is that they both got hit massive amounts of times by the nerf bat.

http://www.guildwars.com/support/gameupdates/

That’s not all of them, I remember Shadow Form was reworked/nerfed, from completely not taking damage to “5 damage reduction for each Assassin enchantment on you.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shadow_Form
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shadow_Form/Skill_history

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Posted by: Hyper Cutter.9376

Hyper Cutter.9376

Dots revealing stealthed characters would completely kitten thieves to uselessness in WvW and PvP.

And nothing of value was lost.

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Posted by: Auesis.7301

Auesis.7301

Assassins in GW1 worked very well without stealth.

Because Thief has anywhere near as much versatility and lockdown ability as Assassin ever did before the hundreds of nerfs it also received.

Gnome Child [Gc]
Resident Thief

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Posted by: Docherty.8372

Docherty.8372

this is supposed to be a competitive game!

And in the competitive format of the game, stealth is fine.

No it’s not. It will never be fine in PvP combat, because most of us have better things to do than sit there and twiddle thumbs for 50% of every combat – like wash the dishes, or walk the dog, in fact – there is some drying paint I need to go watch.

I can tell you have literally never set foot in non-hotjoin sPvP with another Thief in the lobby. Ever.

Stealth is beyond worthless as a mechanic in sPvP. Any Thief that takes traits for it and uses it to even a slight amount doesn’t deserve to be in tournaments for any reason.

My… utter hatred of the stealth mechanic has nothing to do with being ‘OP’, or particularly effective in sPvP (I’d agree, Thieves are effectively useless in tPvP – would even take my Ranger into tournys before my Thief), my beef is that it’s a super-tedious mechanic that detracts from what is otherwise, a pretty enjoyable and dynamic combat system.

It’s that simple – stealth is not FUN. Nobody particularly enjoys fighting Thieves or Mesmers, it’s a CHORE which one can’t avoid if one decides to play a competitive mode – my mains are Thief and Mesmer, they got no tricks I didn’t discover (or invent) myself many moons ago.

I don’t fear them, just avoid them if possible, because I don’t care for kittened whack-a-mole gameplay – genuinely, if Anet wants me playing this game, instead of starting-up yet another game of Civ or XCOM (Firaxis be on-point, these guys actually put some thought into their gameplay) then they need to make some changes, or get used to being another has-been game.

Your call guys, it ain’t my game (if it was, I’d be cleaning house, no doubt – middle management is clearly idea-free, the top-notch artists and animators are being squandered here) – but forget it right? Just give them a hamster wheel (ascended, legendary etc) to run in and forget about it.

To re-iterate, in a competitive game both players need to play, but in this game, stealth simply denies the other player the chance to play, and that’s a cardinal sin. Fix it – make some counterplay, and simply making them take some otherwise-useless utility (Sic ’Em) or consumable (stealth traps) is not good enough.

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Posted by: Myst.9182

Myst.9182

Thats a very WoW way of dealing with stealth.

I liked what the devs had on paper before the game came out, thieves only being stealthed for short amounts of time. But the game quickly went from thieves having stealth to being practically invisible.

I know they kinda nerfed perma-stealth builds, but a well-practiced thief player will never die if he doesn’t want to. Perma-stealth is bad, it makes the game fun for only one person. (The one with Permanent Invisibility.)

The only thing I would change about stealth though would be that if you have a thief is taken as your target before he goes stealth then when he comes out of stealth you should still have him targeted, unless in that time you have taken a new target.

(edited by Myst.9182)

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Posted by: Shadey Dancer.2907

Shadey Dancer.2907

Remember, when it comes to stealth, Just use the first rule of fight club, that worked for over a year!

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Posted by: Easlay.3297

Easlay.3297

Remember, when it comes to stealth, Just use the first rule of fight club, that worked for over a year!

u just broke it!

[OSC] Easlay Koorst – Thief
Sfr

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Posted by: Rin.1046

Rin.1046

As a thief main I would like to see the following changes to the revealed debuff:

Increase the duration of revealed to 5 seconds minimum and make the debuff effect the character EVERY time they exit stealth, regardless of whether they attack or not.

This may need some defense buffs in other areas to compensate for the reduction in defensive capability. Maybe a small endurance regen boost while revealed (+10-20%)?

Simplicity is complex.

Good feedback is key to getting the developers to listen to you.

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Posted by: Lucky Shot.7650

Lucky Shot.7650

When I first heard about stealth in GW2 (I think it was long before Beta) it sounded more like this:

When you’re hit in stealth, you will be revealed for a short amount of time. Dots will reveal the stealthed character as long as he takes damage from it.

Wouldn’t this be a more interesting stealth-mechanic and more fun to 90% of the playerbase? What do you think?

Of course, since I think something like 11% of the playerbase plays thief (think I read it somewhere in thief forum) the remaining 89% will have a lot more fun getting free kills! Flawless logic.

On a sidenote, since the thread derailed on the stealth OP argument, I mained thief for more than 800 hours and played mostly wvw and pvp. I used to play d/d signet burst and d/p 0/30/30/10/0. Then I started to level other classes because I was getting sick of having Last Refuge kill me and because I had to run from every spec that invested in a durability just a little more tough than thin paper. I now have 6 80’s, all classes but elementalist and mesmer (which I used to effortlessly farm glory in pvp when phantasm build was at its prime).

Stealth was so over powered that I quit the class when I realized how weak my thief was compared to my necro/guardian/engineer in wvw and mesmer in pvp. I feel thief is only good for disengaging and kill unexperienced/upleveled players and aside from that is a useless class along with ranger, that is a total mess of a class. Now the only use I have for my thief is standing next to a place of power loaded with quartz.

All of the above is of course just my opinion, and I personally hope they will nerf thief even further to the point it will be completely useless so they may start to think about a total makeover of the class, even though I suspect they won’t be bothered with serious class changes since, for instance, necromancers are asking for a Death Shroud overhaul since forever and DS just got one more skill that was totally unrelated to its issues… and Last Refuge still claims its victims. But hey, enjoy your two weekly checklists “push F in front of X item X times”: you can clear them with any class and any spec!