Guild Wars 2

So I’ve read a lot of posts about how this game doesn’t have the trinity in the game which is a great thing. However it seems the players themselves made a trinity. Warrior, guardian, elementalist.

Often times other classes such as ranger are simply just ignored. Because of this instead of a tank, dps, and healer role shouldn’t we try something else?

Why not enter a queue that needs 2 heavy armors, 2 medium and 1 light(just an example)

Why make a game with no trinity that still has a trinity player made that shuts out so many people.

I remember when the game came out no one cared what class you were making the game fun. But those days are gone now. The queue was only a suggestion to. Premade parties of 5 warriors can still be made for people that can’t spend an extra 5 minutes in the dungeon and a player queue could combine all servers.

Thoughts? And again yes Premade parties are fine, but a dungeon finder queue can be for everyone else.

Except rangers aren’t ignored, in fact every class that isn’t a necro fits into the pve meta. Though i wouldn’t be surprised if there are still people having resentment against rangers considering most rangers tries to “rp” as an bearbow in dungeons.

Warriors fit in dungeon comps only because of banners,

ele for might stack and deep freeze among other things like dps and condi clear and vulnerability stacking,

guardian: reflect/stability/condi clear/aegis

thief for dps, blackpowder, stealth and defiance stripping.

Ranger: spotter, frost spirit and dps

Engineer: vulnerability stacking, dps and condi clears

Mesmer: feedback/wardens/timewarp etc

Necro: nothing of value

There’s no trinity in GW2.
Your so called trinity is players who want to play Meta, which isn’t a trinity.

“Your trinity” are specced to 90% highest DPS output + 10% group support.
Some classes are better at it yes, but that’s to the player to decide.

GW2 Gives the freedom in this, so there are always people complaining on both sides.

No. You can complete any instance with 5 necros. You don’t “2 heavies” to do anything in game. You’re solving a problem that doesn’t exist.

Sylent if someone is telling you that only Ele, Warrior and Guardian are wanted in dungeon then he don’t know the game.

Elementalist, Warrior and Thief are right now the top profession in dungeon. But you also have Guardian and Mesmer that are often use in record runs

For normal speed run you also have engineer and ranger (they been buffed in september 2014) that are now really really good profession. They just fall between two stools for record run, but are perfect for speed runs.

The only profession that have difficulty in dungeon is necromancer. Its not that bad, they can do decent dps comparable to mesmer and guardian. But they don’t bring enough unique things in the moment.

Watch out, there is a LOT of ppl that don’t follow the game evolution close enough to see the game change. A lot of ppl continue to critic the stacking in corner or pugs group that continue to use that tactic but its been 5 months since FGS was nerf and corner stacking should be rare and only at specific place. A lot of ppl continue to see engineer, ranger and necromancer as poor dungeon profession even that changed a long time ago (except for necro). Ppl have a hard time keep up with new information that sick around in pugs for a very long time.

Here’s a summary of the hundreds of previous threads on the subject:

Lishtenbird.2814:

4. HOLY TRINITY

[~] Threads for reference:

• Holy Trinity Is Called “Holy” For A Reason
• In my view, the Trinity Needs to Come Back
• No Holy Trinity = Boring?
• The Holy Trinity… is missed.
• Holy Trinity Contradiction
• Holy trinity of mmo
• Combat roles, no trinity…
• Lack of trinity makes this game boring I think

[+] Arguments in favour:

• That other game has it; we’ve seen it done there and enjoyed it.
• No Holy Trinity means no dedicated roles. No roles means no distinct place for you in the world and no way to master your role, which in turns means boring gameplay.
• Absence of dedicated roles leads to issues with gear diversity, such as “zerk meta”.
• Trinity provides easier ways to create new encounters, including challenging ones.

[-] Arguments against:

• That other game also has the frustration of waiting for a certain type of player, gear treadmill, open-world PvP and other things which spice up the life for some players while annoying other players. GW2 is a different game which caters to less competitive players: you can play what you want and how you want (and complete it at your own pace) – which is what makes GW2 loved by many people who bought the original “revolutionary” MMO.
• As easy as it seems, combat in GW2 is rather deep and has a lot of room for self-improvement and “fun”. Further reading: GW2: official Blogpost about the Holy Trinity – the philosophy behind no holy trinity explained by developers. Dungeon speedclear videos can tell you about tactics, guides – about builds and rotations which provide best class synergy; sPvP has variety of builds, team compositions and map tactics and tricks are very important there; WvW roaming is unique – all this requires different sets of skills, traits, weapons and tactics which become better if you’re in the right party, even if there’s no trinity.
• Constraints are fun for some; freedom is fun for others. You can be a healing WvW thief, a buffing DPS ele, an unkillable Nomad troll warrior – your role is up to you to decide, but you will still be able to complete content because the game doesn’t pigeonhole you into a single role.
• Instead of one gear meta for all players, there will be one meta for each trinity class – and nothing will really change.
• Absence of holy trinity is refreshing. It also allows to bring new types of encounters which benefit from non-trinity mechanics.

[=] Current state of affairs:

• “Holy Trinity” threads are often met with negativity because players are already enjoying the game the way it is and do not see a reason to scrap the old established system which is fairly unique in favour of a generic one. Minor changes to things like condition caps or mob AI sound like better ways of gameplay improvements.

You may also try searching the forum for the previous threads, for this see this sticky.

Who made a trinity? Never encountered specific requests for class or armor type; Zerkers – occasionally; otherwise all groups I’ve been in consisted of all kinds of classes; except sometimes a person will switch to other class because group say doesn’t have a mesmer and they want to play mesmer on this fractal / dungeon – but they only switch because they want to, not because they are asked.

Maybe I’ve been lucky to avoid the “elitistest of the elitists”.

Lol necro nothing of value in above post, funny; I don’t have a necro myself I did consider making one because I see conditions becoming more important in solo roaming (fighting Mordrem in SW). Yet still I often encounter a necro in a dungeon group; sure they might not have the use of a guardian or mesmer but those conditions do hurt. I suspect that any new dungeon/mechanics added will have from time to time mobs like those husks where warriors have a tough time damaging them because you have to spec condi. And dungeon setting having only 5 people, necro would come in quite handy considering guardian can only burn, mesmers are never specced condi, and warriors also would have to change spec to go condi.

Also poison is a 50% healing debuff which has been needed in some places (Queen’s pavilion for instance). Thief can poison sure but necro I think has the most condi they can apply which can be very powerful on a tough armor mob.

Thaddeus.4891:

Watch out, there is a LOT of ppl that don’t follow the game evolution close enough to see the game change. A lot of ppl continue to critic the stacking in corner or pugs group that continue to use that tactic but its been 5 months since FGS was nerf and corner stacking should be rare and only at specific place. A lot of ppl continue to see engineer, ranger and necromancer as poor dungeon profession even that changed a long time ago (except for necro). Ppl have a hard time keep up with new information that sick around in pugs for a very long time.

Thank you for pointing this out. I can’t tell you how unbearable it is to try to get people out of death corners. Stacking on some things was fine when fgs killed it in seconds. They just don’t understand why the groups were stacking in the first place. Stacking is still ok in some situations, but if the group wipes repeatedly they respond negatively to changing tactics.

Gimli.9461:

Who made a trinity? Never encountered specific requests for class or armor type; Zerkers – occasionally; otherwise all groups I’ve been in consisted of all kinds of classes; except sometimes a person will switch to other class because group say doesn’t have a mesmer and they want to play mesmer on this fractal / dungeon – but they only switch because they want to, not because they are asked.

Maybe I’ve been lucky to avoid the “elitistest of the elitists”.

Lol necro nothing of value in above post, funny; I don’t have a necro myself I did consider making one because I see conditions becoming more important in solo roaming (fighting Mordrem in SW). Yet still I often encounter a necro in a dungeon group; sure they might not have the use of a guardian or mesmer but those conditions do hurt. I suspect that any new dungeon/mechanics added will have from time to time mobs like those husks where warriors have a tough time damaging them because you have to spec condi. And dungeon setting having only 5 people, necro would come in quite handy considering guardian can only burn, mesmers are never specced condi, and warriors also would have to change spec to go condi.

Also poison is a 50% healing debuff which has been needed in some places (Queen’s pavilion for instance). Thief can poison sure but necro I think has the most condi they can apply which can be very powerful on a tough armor mob.

If clearing dungen “husk” mobs was a thing, condi engi and warrior would be higher up in the list than a necro. Will a necro be a bit more useful?.. sure but thats not saying much since they will still be at the bottom of the barrel.

Guardians warriors and eles are not put in dungeons because of “healer tank and dps”. Warriors for banners, guardians for condi clear and even better dps than a warrior, and ele’s for stacking an insane amount of might. If done right, you don’t even need healing at all.

Sylent.3165:

So I’ve read a lot of posts about how this game doesn’t have the trinity in the game which is a great thing. However it seems the players themselves made a trinity. Warrior, guardian, elementalist.

Often times other classes such as ranger are simply just ignored. Because of this instead of a tank, dps, and healer role shouldn’t we try something else?

Why not enter a queue that needs 2 heavy armors, 2 medium and 1 light(just an example)

Why make a game with no trinity that still has a trinity player made that shuts out so many people.

I remember when the game came out no one cared what class you were making the game fun. But those days are gone now. The queue was only a suggestion to. Premade parties of 5 warriors can still be made for people that can’t spend an extra 5 minutes in the dungeon and a player queue could combine all servers.

Thoughts? And again yes Premade parties are fine, but a dungeon finder queue can be for everyone else.

I support 100% the trinity system. The problem is that you cant have a tank without aggro generation controlled by the player. They could create sigil/runes of aggro generation. Maybe some weapon skills could generate aggro, like a guardian/warrior mace or shield. Or give mace/shield passive aggro generation.

One problem with the lfg system you proposed is that the light/medium/heavy armor are not relater with been tankier or not.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Here’s a summary of the hundreds of previous threads on the subject:

Lishtenbird.2814:

4. HOLY TRINITY

[~] Threads for reference:

• Holy Trinity Is Called “Holy” For A Reason
• In my view, the Trinity Needs to Come Back
• No Holy Trinity = Boring?
• The Holy Trinity… is missed.
• Holy Trinity Contradiction
• Holy trinity of mmo
• Combat roles, no trinity…
• Lack of trinity makes this game boring I think

[+] Arguments in favour:

• That other game has it; we’ve seen it done there and enjoyed it.
• No Holy Trinity means no dedicated roles. No roles means no distinct place for you in the world and no way to master your role, which in turns means boring gameplay.
• Absence of dedicated roles leads to issues with gear diversity, such as “zerk meta”.
• Trinity provides easier ways to create new encounters, including challenging ones.

[-] Arguments against:

• That other game also has the frustration of waiting for a certain type of player, gear treadmill, open-world PvP and other things which spice up the life for some players while annoying other players. GW2 is a different game which caters to less competitive players: you can play what you want and how you want (and complete it at your own pace) – which is what makes GW2 loved by many people who bought the original “revolutionary” MMO.
• As easy as it seems, combat in GW2 is rather deep and has a lot of room for self-improvement and “fun”. Further reading: GW2: official Blogpost about the Holy Trinity – the philosophy behind no holy trinity explained by developers. Dungeon speedclear videos can tell you about tactics, guides – about builds and rotations which provide best class synergy; sPvP has variety of builds, team compositions and map tactics and tricks are very important there; WvW roaming is unique – all this requires different sets of skills, traits, weapons and tactics which become better if you’re in the right party, even if there’s no trinity.
• Constraints are fun for some; freedom is fun for others. You can be a healing WvW thief, a buffing DPS ele, an unkillable Nomad troll warrior – your role is up to you to decide, but you will still be able to complete content because the game doesn’t pigeonhole you into a single role.
• Instead of one gear meta for all players, there will be one meta for each trinity class – and nothing will really change.
• Absence of holy trinity is refreshing. It also allows to bring new types of encounters which benefit from non-trinity mechanics.

[=] Current state of affairs:

• “Holy Trinity” threads are often met with negativity because players are already enjoying the game the way it is and do not see a reason to scrap the old established system which is fairly unique in favour of a generic one. Minor changes to things like condition caps or mob AI sound like better ways of gameplay improvements.

You may also try searching the forum for the previous threads, for this see this sticky.

This summary was made by 1 player and is very biased for his point of view.

xDudisx.5914:

I support 100% the trinity system. The problem is that you cant have a tank without aggro generation controlled by the player. They could create sigil/runes of aggro generation. Maybe some weapon skills could generate aggro, like a guardian/warrior mace or shield. Or give mace/shield passive aggro generation.

One problem with the lfg system you proposed is that the light/medium/heavy armor are not relater with been tankier or not.

When will you understand that this game is not and will never be a Trinity game. There is a lot of trinity MMO out here can we at least have one that is the same copy paste?

Ok lets start a count of ppl that aggree or disagree with Lishtenbird’s summary. I agree so

Agree : 2
Disagree :1

Thaddeus.4891:

xDudisx.5914:

I support 100% the trinity system. The problem is that you cant have a tank without aggro generation controlled by the player. They could create sigil/runes of aggro generation. Maybe some weapon skills could generate aggro, like a guardian/warrior mace or shield. Or give mace/shield passive aggro generation.

One problem with the lfg system you proposed is that the light/medium/heavy armor are not relater with been tankier or not.

When will you understand that this game is not and will never be a Trinity game. There is a lot of trinity MMO out here can we at least have one that is the same copy paste?

Ok lets start a count of ppl that aggree or disagree with Lishtenbird’s summary. I agree so

Agree : 2
Disagree :1

You know that the forums are not a good sample size for the entire community? Also the demography in the forums in different from the game. For example here we have lots of pvp players while in the game it is not really popular.

xDudisx.5914:

You know that the forums are not a good sample size for the entire community? Also the demography in the forums in different from the game. For example here we have lots of pvp players while in the game it is not really popular.

Not fair, i’ll tell my mom. If you can give bullkitten argument, i want to be able to do the same. You’re no fun.

xDudisx.5914:

Sylent.3165:

So I’ve read a lot of posts about how this game doesn’t have the trinity in the game which is a great thing. However it seems the players themselves made a trinity. Warrior, guardian, elementalist.

Often times other classes such as ranger are simply just ignored. Because of this instead of a tank, dps, and healer role shouldn’t we try something else?

Why not enter a queue that needs 2 heavy armors, 2 medium and 1 light(just an example)

Why make a game with no trinity that still has a trinity player made that shuts out so many people.

I remember when the game came out no one cared what class you were making the game fun. But those days are gone now. The queue was only a suggestion to. Premade parties of 5 warriors can still be made for people that can’t spend an extra 5 minutes in the dungeon and a player queue could combine all servers.

Thoughts? And again yes Premade parties are fine, but a dungeon finder queue can be for everyone else.

I support 100% the trinity system. The problem is that you cant have a tank without aggro generation controlled by the player. They could create sigil/runes of aggro generation. Maybe some weapon skills could generate aggro, like a guardian/warrior mace or shield. Or give mace/shield passive aggro generation.

One problem with the lfg system you proposed is that the light/medium/heavy armor are not relater with been tankier or not.

Even a game with clearly defined roles like GW1 didn’t have actual aggro management, like skills that generate / manipulate aggro directly. That’s not needed for any game to be engaging.

Thaddeus.4891:

xDudisx.5914:

You know that the forums are not a good sample size for the entire community? Also the demography in the forums in different from the game. For example here we have lots of pvp players while in the game it is not really popular.

Not fair, i’ll tell my mom. If you can give bullkitten argument, i want to be able to do the same. You’re no fun.

You are the one presenting no real argument. Even devs have already said that the forums is not a good representation of the playerbase.

xDudisx.5914:

This summary was made by 1 player and is very biased for his point of view.

xDudisx.5914:

You know that the forums are not a good sample size for the entire community?

Therefore, it might be that your assessment of the summary is biased instead.

Lishtenbird.2814:

xDudisx.5914:

This summary was made by 1 player and is very biased for his point of view.

xDudisx.5914:

You know that the forums are not a good sample size for the entire community?

Therefore, it might be that your assessment of the summary is biased instead.

Look at the summary:

In favor arguments have 1 line
Against arguments have 1 paragraph detailing and explaining his point of view.

Make your conclusions.

I am not the one claiming that the forum represents the community. The other guys is.

xDudisx.5914:

Look at the summary:

In favor arguments have 1 line
Against arguments have 1 paragraph detailing and explaining his point of view.

Make your conclusions.

Conclusion 1) : Against arguments are really weak

Conclusion 2) : Against arguments are not really that important because this game is build around not a trinity, while other game are build around having a trinity. Ppl that like trinity play game with trinity and ppl that don’t want trinity play GW2. And there is small portion of ppl that for a weird reason prefer tinity game, but keep playing GW2 and posting on the forum of GW2.

xDudisx.5914:

Sylent.3165:

So I’ve read a lot of posts about how this game doesn’t have the trinity in the game which is a great thing. However it seems the players themselves made a trinity. Warrior, guardian, elementalist.

Often times other classes such as ranger are simply just ignored. Because of this instead of a tank, dps, and healer role shouldn’t we try something else?

Why not enter a queue that needs 2 heavy armors, 2 medium and 1 light(just an example)

Why make a game with no trinity that still has a trinity player made that shuts out so many people.

I remember when the game came out no one cared what class you were making the game fun. But those days are gone now. The queue was only a suggestion to. Premade parties of 5 warriors can still be made for people that can’t spend an extra 5 minutes in the dungeon and a player queue could combine all servers.

Thoughts? And again yes Premade parties are fine, but a dungeon finder queue can be for everyone else.

I support 100% the trinity system. The problem is that you cant have a tank without aggro generation controlled by the player. They could create sigil/runes of aggro generation. Maybe some weapon skills could generate aggro, like a guardian/warrior mace or shield. Or give mace/shield passive aggro generation.

One problem with the lfg system you proposed is that the light/medium/heavy armor are not relater with been tankier or not.

The problem is that GW2 wasn’t designed to support a trinity system. No class can indefinitely tank, even if they can keep aggro 100%. At best they will need to constantly kite the target while the rest of the group helps with CC, and that is exactly how the current system works (the only difference being the enemy can change targets).

And only a few can constantly heal (first that comes to mind is staff Eles) but they are mediocre at best with burst of high heals. They will be more effective switching back & forth between helping with CC and doing damage, and then healing a bit (which, again, is how the game currently works).

And that’s not even mentioning things like world bosses where tanking wouldn’t achieve anything because most attacks are AoE and not focused on individuals.

To implement a Trinity would require a revamp of several classes as well as a lot of game mechanics.

xDudisx.5914:

Look at the summary:

In favor arguments have 1 line
Against arguments have 1 paragraph detailing and explaining his point of view.

Make your conclusions.

I am not the one claiming that the forum represents the community. The other guys is.

Firstly, already answered:

Lishtenbird.2814:

— Too little pros, too many cons. It’s biased.

• Firstly, it’s usually like that IRL. When you say “Let’s get a cat, cats are cool!”, that’s really enough; even dog-type people know what cat-type people like about cats, there’s little point voicing evident things. On the contrary, saying “why not get a cat” requires going into specific details concerning cats and your present and future circumstances: time cost, money cost, hair and dirt, allergy, illnesses, going on trips…
• Secondly, many of the mentioned things did not exist in the game at launch, which means there were specific reasons why the game didn’t have them from head start. These reasons are usually quite extensive and still valid, so they take up a considerable amount of space.

Lishtenbird.2814:

• People need water to live. Water is vital for all known forms of life. People are a life form. Without water, people die. Robots do not need water. Robots are made of metal. People are not robots. People are made of 60% water, so they need water to stay alive…

You’re moving from a catch-all argument to artificially bloating up information with self-evident statements – which is what politicians in their speeches and students in their papers do. The NPE has done a great job in treating players like 5-year-olds, but I’m not going to do it; if a person can’t make an obvious connection that “more variety” = “more interested players” = “more money to make new stuff”, then I’m afraid s/he won’t be able to provide anything valuable anyway.

Secondly; got constructive stuff to add apart from “I’m used to it so put it here”? Add it. Most arguments “in favour” I’ve seen boil down to the stuff I mention.

xDudisx.5914:

Lishtenbird.2814:

Here’s a summary of the hundreds of previous threads on the subject:

Lishtenbird.2814:

4. HOLY TRINITY

[~] Threads for reference:

• Holy Trinity Is Called “Holy” For A Reason
• In my view, the Trinity Needs to Come Back
• No Holy Trinity = Boring?
• The Holy Trinity… is missed.
• Holy Trinity Contradiction
• Holy trinity of mmo
• Combat roles, no trinity…
• Lack of trinity makes this game boring I think

[+] Arguments in favour:

• That other game has it; we’ve seen it done there and enjoyed it.
• No Holy Trinity means no dedicated roles. No roles means no distinct place for you in the world and no way to master your role, which in turns means boring gameplay.
• Absence of dedicated roles leads to issues with gear diversity, such as “zerk meta”.
• Trinity provides easier ways to create new encounters, including challenging ones.

[-] Arguments against:

• That other game also has the frustration of waiting for a certain type of player, gear treadmill, open-world PvP and other things which spice up the life for some players while annoying other players. GW2 is a different game which caters to less competitive players: you can play what you want and how you want (and complete it at your own pace) – which is what makes GW2 loved by many people who bought the original “revolutionary” MMO.
• As easy as it seems, combat in GW2 is rather deep and has a lot of room for self-improvement and “fun”. Further reading: GW2: official Blogpost about the Holy Trinity – the philosophy behind no holy trinity explained by developers. Dungeon speedclear videos can tell you about tactics, guides – about builds and rotations which provide best class synergy; sPvP has variety of builds, team compositions and map tactics and tricks are very important there; WvW roaming is unique – all this requires different sets of skills, traits, weapons and tactics which become better if you’re in the right party, even if there’s no trinity.
• Constraints are fun for some; freedom is fun for others. You can be a healing WvW thief, a buffing DPS ele, an unkillable Nomad troll warrior – your role is up to you to decide, but you will still be able to complete content because the game doesn’t pigeonhole you into a single role.
• Instead of one gear meta for all players, there will be one meta for each trinity class – and nothing will really change.
• Absence of holy trinity is refreshing. It also allows to bring new types of encounters which benefit from non-trinity mechanics.

[=] Current state of affairs:

• “Holy Trinity” threads are often met with negativity because players are already enjoying the game the way it is and do not see a reason to scrap the old established system which is fairly unique in favour of a generic one. Minor changes to things like condition caps or mob AI sound like better ways of gameplay improvements.

You may also try searching the forum for the previous threads, for this see this sticky.

This summary was made by 1 player and is very biased for his point of view.

This. Neither for nor against the “holy trinity”, but clearly when the first thing talked about in the first link provided had absolutely nothing to do with the proceeding bulletpoints, kinda shows a bit of fallacious presentation.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

class imbalances do not create a “trinity”.

The “trinity” system is an archaic system that needs to go away.

Uh… what trinity? I mean, they wanted a Control, Support, and Damage trinity, and the only one really present is Damage.

As for Rangers? They’re perfectly viable now and deal good DPS as opposed to the Ranger of GW2’s launch. Anyone not taking a ranger is just stuck in the past.

Stark.1350:

The “trinity” system is an archaic system that needs to go away.

So you are saying something is bad just because it is old? Democracy is old too and I dont see people questioning that just because it is old.

Lots of new games are releasing with trinity system or some variation of it. Also the most successful games have it.

Amiron.1067:

Uh… what trinity? I mean, they wanted a Control, Support, and Damage trinity, and the only one really present is Damage.

I didn’t know my Damage reflected projectiles, blinded trash mobs, put Deep Freeze on bosses, managed their Defiant stacks, cleansed conditions and granted stability. I guess I wasn’t using Support or Control after all!

Sorry if my op wasn’t getting across what I meant. I’m not saying the game has a trinity right now in any way.

What I’m saying is at least in my server the lfg is nothing except warriors, guardians, eles, and sometimes a mesmer. I try joining as a s/d ranger I got booted. I tried going in on my d/p thief I get booted. My main suggestion was an actual dungeon queue for people who experience this issue and don’t care who they play with they just want to play. But just not on a specific wanted class just to get into groups.

xDudisx.5914:

Stark.1350:

The “trinity” system is an archaic system that needs to go away.

So you are saying something is bad just because it is old? Democracy is old too and I dont see people questioning that just because it is old.

Lots of new games are releasing with trinity system or some variation of it. Also the most successful games have it.

To be fair, GW2 did try to take a bit of a newer approach to MMOs, so even though being old doesn’t make a concept bad, it does mean it might not have a place in the game

Amiron.1067:

Uh… what trinity? I mean, they wanted a Control, Support, and Damage trinity, and the only one really present is Damage.

Support is a huge part of the game too. Protection, Reflect, Aegis, Condi Removal, Offensive Buffs, etc. But its right that CC isn’t present at all in PvE. They clearly figure out that it was too good against boss and added the Defiant buff as a cheap fix.

xDudisx.5914:

Stark.1350:

The “trinity” system is an archaic system that needs to go away.

So you are saying something is bad just because it is old? Democracy is old too and I dont see people questioning that just because it is old.

Lots of new games are releasing with trinity system or some variation of it. Also the most successful games have it.

Its an old system that show it’s age and that not everybody like. Some game try to make some variation or improving it with different level of success, while GW2 try something else with some level of success. Not the best system possible, a lot can be improve, but for a part of the gamerz community its a path that they prefer over the holy trinity.

That doesn’t mean that trinity should die, but that doesn’t mean either that gw2 should just get back to trinity. Two good system can exist in different game and be targeted at different type of players. I don’t like the trinity and that’s why I play GW2 and don’t go complain in forums how WoW or SWTOR shouldn’t use the trinity in their game.

Sylent.3165:

Sorry if my op wasn’t getting across what I meant. I’m not saying the game has a trinity right now in any way.

What I’m saying is at least in my server the lfg is nothing except warriors, guardians, eles, and sometimes a mesmer. I try joining as a s/d ranger I got booted. I tried going in on my d/p thief I get booted. My main suggestion was an actual dungeon queue for people who experience this issue and don’t care who they play with they just want to play. But just not on a specific wanted class just to get into groups.

Make your own lfg.

Sylent.3165:

Sorry if my op wasn’t getting across what I meant. I’m not saying the game has a trinity right now in any way.

What I’m saying is at least in my server the lfg is nothing except warriors, guardians, eles, and sometimes a mesmer. I try joining as a s/d ranger I got booted. I tried going in on my d/p thief I get booted. My main suggestion was an actual dungeon queue for people who experience this issue and don’t care who they play with they just want to play. But just not on a specific wanted class just to get into groups.

Awkward to point out, but you can LFG to make your own groups.
Just be sure to communicate that it’s not a meta/speed run or “all welcome.” I swear those groups will fill relatively quickly.
Any booting that happens after that is just people being kittenholes. >_>

Sylent.3165:

Sorry if my op wasn’t getting across what I meant. I’m not saying the game has a trinity right now in any way.

What I’m saying is at least in my server the lfg is nothing except warriors, guardians, eles, and sometimes a mesmer. I try joining as a s/d ranger I got booted. I tried going in on my d/p thief I get booted. My main suggestion was an actual dungeon queue for people who experience this issue and don’t care who they play with they just want to play. But just not on a specific wanted class just to get into groups.

That has more to do with the meta than a trinity. Warrior, Guardian and Ele together make the most effective dungeon running team. Mesmers get added because they can also speed things up. So many people only want those classes, and only with certain gear and certain specs so runs go as fast and efficient as possible

hybrid.5027:

Amiron.1067:

Uh… what trinity? I mean, they wanted a Control, Support, and Damage trinity, and the only one really present is Damage.

I didn’t know my Damage reflected projectiles, blinded trash mobs, put Deep Freeze on bosses, managed their Defiant stacks, cleansed conditions and granted stability. I guess I wasn’t using Support or Control after all!

Yes but you did it wearing gear with Berserker stats so it’s no Trinity!
Trinity means Cleric support, with aoe stability, condi cleanse, regeneration etc, while Sentinel is Control with Blind, daze, interrupt, fear etc
I guess players doing everything at once is way too complicated for new players, I wonder why Anet hasn’t changed this yet! Imagine how much better the game would be if only people in Sentinel/Soldier/Knight could Control, people in Cleric/Shaman/Giver could Support and Berserker/Rampager/Assassin only had access to direct damage skills!
Amazing Trinity like in other games! Amazing role separation! Superb gameplay!
/sarcasm

There is a trinity but it is not the same as traditional MMO games:
https://whyigame.wordpress.com/the-beginners-guide-to-movement-in-combat-guild-wars-2/#section_4a
Please read this- it is how the game is designed.

If you don’t like it – I can recommend many other games for you to play.

You’ll prob learn a lot more about how GW2 works if you read the full guide too.

Sylent.3165:

Sorry if my op wasn’t getting across what I meant. I’m not saying the game has a trinity right now in any way.

What I’m saying is at least in my server the lfg is nothing except warriors, guardians, eles, and sometimes a mesmer. I try joining as a s/d ranger I got booted. I tried going in on my d/p thief I get booted. My main suggestion was an actual dungeon queue for people who experience this issue and don’t care who they play with they just want to play. But just not on a specific wanted class just to get into groups.

LFG are accross servers and not limited to one server. One lfg for EU and one for NA. Ppl can be jerk and worst they can be stupid jerk and even kick good meta build that they just don’t know of yet because last time they check was a year ago and things evolved. I’m an elistist that play mostly with my guild, but I never kick pugs unless they go against my description. But not everybody are like me. Best solutions for you are either create you own LFG or play with your guild in dungeon. I do both even if I can bring any profession with a meta zerker build, 16k AP and can respond to math question (ya some LFG have weird demands).

Thaddeus.4891:

Support is a huge part of the game too. Protection, Reflect, Aegis, Condi Removal, Offensive Buffs, etc. But its right that CC isn’t present at all in PvE. They clearly figure out that it was too good against boss and added the Defiant buff as a cheap fix.

The entire speed clear pve meta strategies for almost every boss fight are based around one skill, Deep Freeze. CC is critically important in PvE, if you care about having the most efficient dungeon run you can.

You ignore CC, just like you can ignore Support or DPS if you feel like it. The dungeons are able to be completed by 5 Nomads necromancers. Most pugs and even low end organized groups ignore CC because it takes coordination to Deep Freeze and burn Defiant stacks. they can still beat the dungeons anyway, but saying that there is no CC is simply wrong.

Most mmorpgs are pentagram systems not trinity its just classes tend to fill 2 rolls at the same time or they share rolls. DPS tank support healing control are the main types in a trinity system the main class are dps/ support or control, tank/ support or control, healing /support control.

What GW2 dose is a lot like that but its more off how your build both in weapons and points set up (seeing how the points are 5 chose that are close to the 5 type system. So in a lot of ways you can have a trinity in a pt but where healing is a main type in the trinity system it is not in GW2 you find support is the main type that can heal control the same could be said for tanking to a point though to not the same amount.

A lot of what roll some one plays in GW2 is dynamic a more in the moment roll if you have hate any class can avoid dmg there by off tanking. If you do not have hate you should be able to do dmg to some level or cc or even support. This is more like real life then any other mmorpg before. Say if there was a 3 main class system in real life what would stop a healer from smacking there club etc.. on the head of some one and what stops a dps from saving some one?

In a lot of ways its hard to think humans can only fill only one roll when a lot of us have training all over. Simply put trinity is going away at tech gets better for these games because real life is simply not that way only the video gaming world is even table top games are not like this because imagination!

hybrid.5027:

The entire speed clear pve meta strategies for almost every boss fight are based around one skill, Deep Freeze. CC is critically important in PvE, if you care about having the most efficient dungeon run you can.

You ignore CC, just like you can ignore Support or DPS if you feel like it. The dungeons are able to be completed by 5 Nomads necromancers. Most pugs and even low end organized groups ignore CC because it takes coordination to Deep Freeze and burn Defiant stacks. they can still beat the dungeons anyway, but saying that there is no CC is simply wrong.

No no. I’m not saying its not present. I’m using tempest and my group is getting better and better at removing just enough defiant stack to cycle through our Deep Freeze, but CC is like the little cripple brother of the three. You have some push/pull and Deep Freeze, but the place of CC is really small. Yup right now Deep Freeze give a breath of fresh air to CC, but that was highly underused before september because of FGS. Its there, but compare to dps and support, CC seem a bit left out.

Personally, I think GW2’s “trinity” idea is quite relieving. However, the concept and implementation were botched from the start. Stat benefits hardly improve toughness, vitality or healing to the same degree that damage boosts damage, because somewhere down the line, I assume, they realized if they boosted survivability that damage would never be able to overcome it (looking at you, PvP).

So, instead of revising the concept, they pretty much just made it as is. Now we have a game where you certainly can “tank” or “support” if you don’t value yourself at all.

Guardian of Angels.9867:

GW2 Gives the freedom in this, so there are always people complaining on both sides.

The freedom’s certainly not balanced. The multiplicative factor of crits vs. the additive factor of toughness/vitality/healing power makes damage soar well and beyond the effectiveness of someone who wants to focus on support, healing or tanking.

Thaddeus.4891:

The only profession that have difficulty in dungeon is necromancer. Its not that bad, they can do decent dps comparable to mesmer and guardian. But they don’t bring enough unique things in the moment.

A really good Necromancer in dungeons is the exception. There are very few of those though.

hybrid.5027:

Amiron.1067:

Uh… what trinity? I mean, they wanted a Control, Support, and Damage trinity, and the only one really present is Damage.

I didn’t know my Damage reflected projectiles, blinded trash mobs, put Deep Freeze on bosses, managed their Defiant stacks, cleansed conditions and granted stability. I guess I wasn’t using Support or Control after all!

The issue is the gearset. You did this all in berserker (and if you didn’t, you were a detriment to your team.) Which raises the question, why have any other gear stat combinations at all if none of them even compare in the slightest or have their uses in PvE instances?

You know exactly what I mean.

Amiron.1067:

hybrid.5027:

Amiron.1067:

Uh… what trinity? I mean, they wanted a Control, Support, and Damage trinity, and the only one really present is Damage.

I didn’t know my Damage reflected projectiles, blinded trash mobs, put Deep Freeze on bosses, managed their Defiant stacks, cleansed conditions and granted stability. I guess I wasn’t using Support or Control after all!

The issue is the gearset. You did this all in berserker. Which raises the question, why have any other gear stat combinations at all if none of them even compare in the slightest or have their uses in PvE instances?

You know exactly what I mean.

If you dont believe they have their uses in the whole game (restricting the discussion to just pve is a mistake), then clearly you’ve not done everything the game has to offer. I’ll be sure to not revive you in fractals after you’ve been splattered by mai trin

Rashy.4165:

Thaddeus.4891:

The only profession that have difficulty in dungeon is necromancer. Its not that bad, they can do decent dps comparable to mesmer and guardian. But they don’t bring enough unique things in the moment.

A really good Necromancer in dungeons is the exception. There are very few of those though.

You mean like rangers and fractals?

OP, make your own group, say all professions welcome, problem solved. You don’t need to play with people who refuse to play with certain professions. I don’t.

If any class composition can complete dungeons then there is no trinity. Stop obsessing over some class composition finishing 1 minute faster. Who cares. Play with people who actually enjoy the runs instead of people who throws a tantrum if you slip and fell and cost them a few seconds off their run.

Amiron.1067:

hybrid.5027:

Amiron.1067:

Uh… what trinity? I mean, they wanted a Control, Support, and Damage trinity, and the only one really present is Damage.

I didn’t know my Damage reflected projectiles, blinded trash mobs, put Deep Freeze on bosses, managed their Defiant stacks, cleansed conditions and granted stability. I guess I wasn’t using Support or Control after all!

The issue is the gearset. You did this all in berserker (and if you didn’t, you were a detriment to your team.) Which raises the question, why have any other gear stat combinations at all if none of them even compare in the slightest or have their uses in PvE instances?

You know exactly what I mean.

Your first argument was control and support is not there, only dmg. He responded to that. Now you are talking about gear, which is another issue.

Ok so why any othe gear stats exist right?

Half defensive gear like knight exist in PvE for ppl that learn the game, learn a profession or just play casual and just want a easier pve experience. A lot of ppl, including all those zerker elistist (like me) used those gear as learning wheel and I’m glad they exist.

Condition gear is very good in solo situation and should be good in PvE, but there is an issue with condition itself in PvE that need to be fixed. Everybody know it and want it. From the casual necromancer to that elistist that solo lupi in a min.

After that a lot of gear is really good in WvW, but maybe you don’t count that huge part of the game?

Thaddeus.4891:

Amiron.1067:

hybrid.5027:

Amiron.1067:

Uh… what trinity? I mean, they wanted a Control, Support, and Damage trinity, and the only one really present is Damage.

I didn’t know my Damage reflected projectiles, blinded trash mobs, put Deep Freeze on bosses, managed their Defiant stacks, cleansed conditions and granted stability. I guess I wasn’t using Support or Control after all!

The issue is the gearset. You did this all in berserker (and if you didn’t, you were a detriment to your team.) Which raises the question, why have any other gear stat combinations at all if none of them even compare in the slightest or have their uses in PvE instances?

You know exactly what I mean.

Your first argument was control and support is not there, only dmg. He responded to that. Now you are talking about gear, which is another issue.

Ok so why any othe gear stats exist right?

Half defensive gear like knight exist in PvE for ppl that learn the game, learn a profession or just play casual and just want a easier pve experience. A lot of ppl, including all those zerker elistist (like me) used those gear as learning wheel and I’m glad they exist.

Condition gear is very good in solo situation and should be good in PvE, but there is an issue with condition itself in PvE that need to be fixed. Everybody know it and want it. From the casual necromancer to that elistist that solo lupi in a min.

After that a lot of gear is really good in WvW, but maybe you don’t count that huge part of the game?

Condi gear really good at wvw?! All the gvg and zerging meta is power based. Conditions only work in small scale roaming and spvp.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Amiron.1067:

hybrid.5027:

Amiron.1067:

Uh… what trinity? I mean, they wanted a Control, Support, and Damage trinity, and the only one really present is Damage.

I didn’t know my Damage reflected projectiles, blinded trash mobs, put Deep Freeze on bosses, managed their Defiant stacks, cleansed conditions and granted stability. I guess I wasn’t using Support or Control after all!

The issue is the gearset. You did this all in berserker. Which raises the question, why have any other gear stat combinations at all if none of them even compare in the slightest or have their uses in PvE instances?

You know exactly what I mean.

If you dont believe they have their uses in the whole game (restricting the discussion to just pve is a mistake), then clearly you’ve not done everything the game has to offer. I’ll be sure to not revive you in fractals after you’ve been splattered by mai trin

I clearly stated PvE instances, as that’s what I’m discussing currently. It is an issue if there is no build variety in instances. I understand some sets can be used for WvW, but that’s only one place in the game. Arguably, some sets can be useful in open world content, like the Silverwastes (condition builds are particularly helpful with husks), but these are very limited environments. When dungeons are run as constantly as they are and there is literally only one viable way to clear it quickly, it’s detrimental to the game’s health.

I have over 3000 hours on this account, and I’m not claiming to be hardcore, but I figure that would at least testify my experience in the game to talk about these issues. Mai Trin is literally one encounter where it’s beneficial to use toughness to mitigate standing in the bad, but even then it’s a detriment to your team if you’re doing lower DPS when you could be dealing more damage and still staying alive.

The game needs diversity, and it needs ways to allow players to specialize in control or support, while still remaining viable options.

Thaddeus.4891:

Amiron.1067:

hybrid.5027:

Amiron.1067:

Uh… what trinity? I mean, they wanted a Control, Support, and Damage trinity, and the only one really present is Damage.

I didn’t know my Damage reflected projectiles, blinded trash mobs, put Deep Freeze on bosses, managed their Defiant stacks, cleansed conditions and granted stability. I guess I wasn’t using Support or Control after all!

The issue is the gearset. You did this all in berserker (and if you didn’t, you were a detriment to your team.) Which raises the question, why have any other gear stat combinations at all if none of them even compare in the slightest or have their uses in PvE instances?

You know exactly what I mean.

Your first argument was control and support is not there, only dmg. He responded to that. Now you are talking about gear, which is another issue.

Ok so why any othe gear stats exist right?

Half defensive gear like knight exist in PvE for ppl that learn the game, learn a profession or just play casual and just want a easier pve experience. A lot of ppl, including all those zerker elistist (like me) used those gear as learning wheel and I’m glad they exist.

Condition gear is very good in solo situation and should be good in PvE, but there is an issue with condition itself in PvE that need to be fixed. Everybody know it and want it. From the casual necromancer to that elistist that solo lupi in a min.

After that a lot of gear is really good in WvW, but maybe you don’t count that huge part of the game?

And this right here is the issue. People see certain stat combinations as “training wheels”. That should never be the case. Every stat combination should be meaningful and add to the gameplay, not act as some sort of stepping stone to the almighty stat combination of power, precision, and ferocity. When one stat combination rules all, there is a clear issue in game design.

You keep bringing up WvW, but if you didn’t notice, I was talking about PvE instances. And even in WvW, berserker is still the meta in large zergs.

Sylent.3165:

Why make a game with no trinity that still has a trinity player made that shuts out so many people.

It would indeed be bad if that happened. But it hasn’t.

As with any game, some PUGs are more elitist than others and they will find a reason to restrict who can join. But there is no reason to do so in GW2 other than a perception by a few players that it matters.

Oh sure, if you plan on competing for speed records, you will need to be particular, but then we would be talking about premades, not PUGs. For running dungeon dailies for gold (and potential drops), a good group is composed of 5 people who know their profession well and are at least familiar with the dungeon mechanics. Second to that is people who know the dungeon well and are competent in their prof. I would never want to be in a run-for-the-gold PUG that specified a profession or even armor weight.