Guild Wars 2

My GW2 buddy often asks me: “Do they test these patches at all?”

I think we have our answer: “NO.”

How is it reasonable to only have two people working on such fundamental issues? I guess for the mainstream players, new content is the biggest pull, but I’d really rather have more money spent on fixing class bugs than producing Mad King stuff and Lost Shores reinforcement waves.

By the way, any ill thoughts I had about those two guys, I take them back. Given the circumstances, you guys are doing okay. I don’t know if I’d be able to do better even if I were an awesome programmer extraordinaire. For god’s sakes there’s only two of you.

I have no idea how programming or debugging or whatever works. I am like a computer infant, but if i had to make a guess based on simply common sense, I would guess that in computer code, one thing leads to another, and one thing can have profound effect on other things. If this is the case, then the less people you have debugging, the more efficient it would be.

Yes but there are plenty of classes and of equilibration to do.
So 2 devs for fixing EVERY disbalances in the game is not so much…

xtorma.1283:

I have no idea how programming or debugging or whatever works. I am like a computer infant, but if i had to make a guess based on simply common sense, I would guess that in computer code, one thing leads to another, and one thing can have profound effect on other things. If this is the case, then the less people you have debugging, the more efficient it would be.

nope.

Proper coding is done modularly and in essene can be pulled apart and fixed as many discrete part. though in practice you get limited on how many physical humans you can keep in harmony, 2 being laughably bad and 10-20 pretty nice.

What has happened is Anet has simply put a very very low priority on bug fixin and a very high one on content, presumably because balance isnt going to sell gems as fast as new content.

szar.9054:

xtorma.1283:

I have no idea how programming or debugging or whatever works. I am like a computer infant, but if i had to make a guess based on simply common sense, I would guess that in computer code, one thing leads to another, and one thing can have profound effect on other things. If this is the case, then the less people you have debugging, the more efficient it would be.

nope.

Proper coding is done modularly and in essene can be pulled apart and fixed as many discrete part. though in practice you get limited on how many physical humans you can keep in harmony, 2 being laughably bad and 10-20 pretty nice.

What has happened is Anet has simply put a very very low priority on bug fixin and a very high one on content, presumably because balance isnt going to sell gems as fast as new content.

Thanks for the education learning new things is always time well spent

szar.9054:

xtorma.1283:

I have no idea how programming or debugging or whatever works. I am like a computer infant, but if i had to make a guess based on simply common sense, I would guess that in computer code, one thing leads to another, and one thing can have profound effect on other things. If this is the case, then the less people you have debugging, the more efficient it would be.

nope.

Proper coding is done modularly and in essene can be pulled apart and fixed as many discrete part. though in practice you get limited on how many physical humans you can keep in harmony, 2 being laughably bad and 10-20 pretty nice.

What has happened is Anet has simply put a very very low priority on bug fixin and a very high one on content, presumably because balance isnt going to sell gems as fast as new content.

The part you fail to understand is that they DO have more then 2 people working on bugs. They simply have 2 LEAD devs that run through and moderate all the changes to make sure they are done right and that it doesn’t effect balance in a negative way.

Simple fact is learning the code takes time (a lot of time) for anyone new to the company so simply saying “Hire more Devs so you can speed things up!” is not as logical as you might think it is.

that would mean they have more than 2.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/General-Patch-Discussion-merged/page/4#post746293 ( its on page 3, but Anet wants to be tricky with links)

As you see he says 2 desiners with no hints at anyone else in the team.

ps: i didnt imply that they need to higher more devs, i think Anet has put too few on important tasks. hell as it stands the balance team could be shut down with a bad order of sea food.

Teulux.6732:

The part you fail to understand is that they DO have more then 2 people working on bugs. They simply have 2 LEAD devs that run through and moderate all the changes to make sure they are done right and that it doesn’t effect balance in a negative way.

Simple fact is learning the code takes time (a lot of time) for anyone new to the company so simply saying “Hire more Devs so you can speed things up!” is not as logical as you might think it is.

Likely so, but having only two devs is pretty much having two people pat each other on the back, no matter how back-a**-wards their changes are. The underling programmers sure as heck aren’t going to tell their two bosses that their ideas are crap. You need to have at least a meaningful dissenting voice saying “wait a second, if you do this to a class, it won’t work anymore.” I don’t think we’re getting that. There’s barely any critical review of the changes.

szar.9054:

What has happened is Anet has simply put a very very low priority on bug fixin and a very high one on content, presumably because balance isnt going to sell gems as fast as new content.

Ultimately, though, the most efficient way to sustain a multiplayer game is in PvP content, where balance is of utmost importance. You can only produce so much content before you start getting diminishing returns. That being said, I am no PvPer and I hate how PvP changes end up affecting PvE in a not so great way.

szar.9054:

xtorma.1283:

I have no idea how programming or debugging or whatever works. I am like a computer infant, but if i had to make a guess based on simply common sense, I would guess that in computer code, one thing leads to another, and one thing can have profound effect on other things. If this is the case, then the less people you have debugging, the more efficient it would be.

nope.

Proper coding is done modularly and in essene can be pulled apart and fixed as many discrete part. though in practice you get limited on how many physical humans you can keep in harmony, 2 being laughably bad and 10-20 pretty nice.

What has happened is Anet has simply put a very very low priority on bug fixin and a very high one on content, presumably because balance isnt going to sell gems as fast as new content.

Given the different behavior in seemingly equivalent skills, i sometimes wonder if the GW2 code is less modular and more copy and paste.

Unless the difference is intentional, that is. But then Anet won’t talk to us and list those that are intentional and those that are bugs.

It’s very apparent that literally no one in this thread even has an inkling of how difficult it is to iterate on code where issues do not actually cause exceptions at runtime (or more commonly known as crashes).

Game programming is so complex you can’t even begin to comprehend the amount of work it takes to do anything. If anything, these developers should be congratulated for the hard work they’ve been doing trying to fix bugs.

digiowl.9620:

szar.9054:

xtorma.1283:

I have no idea how programming or debugging or whatever works. I am like a computer infant, but if i had to make a guess based on simply common sense, I would guess that in computer code, one thing leads to another, and one thing can have profound effect on other things. If this is the case, then the less people you have debugging, the more efficient it would be.

nope.

Proper coding is done modularly and in essene can be pulled apart and fixed as many discrete part. though in practice you get limited on how many physical humans you can keep in harmony, 2 being laughably bad and 10-20 pretty nice.

What has happened is Anet has simply put a very very low priority on bug fixin and a very high one on content, presumably because balance isnt going to sell gems as fast as new content.

Given the different behavior in seemingly equivalent skills, i sometimes wonder if the GW2 code is less modular and more copy and paste.

Unless the difference is intentional, that is. But then Anet won’t talk to us and list those that are intentional and those that are bugs.

I’m pretty sure the programming team uses much more complex structures that are more than just “modular” for a game of this scope.

szar.9054:

that would mean they have more than 2.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/General-Patch-Discussion-merged/page/4#post746293 ( its on page 3, but Anet wants to be tricky with links)

As you see he says 2 desiners with no hints at anyone else in the team.

ps: i didnt imply that they need to higher more devs, i think Anet has put too few on important tasks. hell as it stands the balance team could be shut down with a bad order of sea food.

This is because of balance. I have spent time talking directly with JP and Chap, the 2 lead designers, and they have a lot more people that work on bugs then just balance.

With balance you do not want too many people changing things because then it becomes hard for the main devs to keep up with all the changes and predict how they will effect entire balance of the game. From talking to them, Jon and Chap, I could tell that they are very much on the same page and seem to think a lot alike. (in terms of gaming and direction) Meaning that they most likely work very well together, which is needed when working in the type of environment that I can promise they work in.

This means that they are able to get more done than having 30 people trying to put their own balance into the game and then trying to make it all fit together. Bug fixes ARE done by more then 2 people and you are foolish to think otherwise. Balance is finalized by 2 people but have several meetings to come up with ideas and suggestions.

Once you understand that a company can have 10 teams working on different things that have no correlation directly with each other. THEN you will understand why they can do things like release new content, fix bugs, and release new items all while at the same time working on the aspects of the game that are already in place.

^ This is the hardest concept for MMO players to understand followed closely by “Why can’t you just fix this bug?! I’m sure it must take 2 minutes to fix!”

they’re still balancing skills in gw1..seven years later..

http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/developer_updates/

lots of games (software in general) either receive or need patch work for the duration of their lifetime.

dimgl.4786:

digiowl.9620:

szar.9054:

xtorma.1283:

I have no idea how programming or debugging or whatever works. I am like a computer infant, but if i had to make a guess based on simply common sense, I would guess that in computer code, one thing leads to another, and one thing can have profound effect on other things. If this is the case, then the less people you have debugging, the more efficient it would be.

nope.

Proper coding is done modularly and in essene can be pulled apart and fixed as many discrete part. though in practice you get limited on how many physical humans you can keep in harmony, 2 being laughably bad and 10-20 pretty nice.

What has happened is Anet has simply put a very very low priority on bug fixin and a very high one on content, presumably because balance isnt going to sell gems as fast as new content.

Given the different behavior in seemingly equivalent skills, i sometimes wonder if the GW2 code is less modular and more copy and paste.

Unless the difference is intentional, that is. But then Anet won’t talk to us and list those that are intentional and those that are bugs.

I’m pretty sure the programming team uses much more complex structures that are more than just “modular” for a game of this scope.

Modularity is a design principal, a really really importsant one. Complexity is irelavent,because modular code is infinity easier to debug and modify than so code “blob”

Teulux.6732:

szar.9054:

that would mean they have more than 2.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/General-Patch-Discussion-merged/page/4#post746293 ( its on page 3, but Anet wants to be tricky with links)

As you see he says 2 desiners with no hints at anyone else in the team.

ps: i didnt imply that they need to higher more devs, i think Anet has put too few on important tasks. hell as it stands the balance team could be shut down with a bad order of sea food.

This is because of balance. I have spent time talking directly with JP and Chap, the 2 lead designers, and they have a lot more people that work on bugs then just balance.

With balance you do not want too many people changing things because then it becomes hard for the main devs to keep up with all the changes and predict how they will effect entire balance of the game. From talking to them, Jon and Chap, I could tell that they are very much on the same page and seem to think a lot alike. (in terms of gaming and direction) Meaning that they most likely work very well together, which is needed when working in the type of environment that I can promise they work in.

This means that they are able to get more done than having 30 people trying to put their own balance into the game and then trying to make it all fit together. Bug fixes ARE done by more then 2 people and you are foolish to think otherwise. Balance is finalized by 2 people but have several meetings to come up with ideas and suggestions.

Once you understand that a company can have 10 teams working on different things that have no correlation directly with each other. THEN you will understand why they can do things like release new content, fix bugs, and release new items all while at the same time working on the aspects of the game that are already in place.

^ This is the hardest concept for MMO players to understand followed closely by “Why can’t you just fix this bug?! I’m sure it must take 2 minutes to fix!”

Yeah thats all just excuse for a willfully kittened blance team. you dont need an army, efficiency is cut as members increase, but a 5 man team is easily twice as effective as a 2 man team. And just Fyi 90% of balance and bug fixing is making trivial edits to databases that dont involve any real coding. Occasionally devs need thing not covered by existing systems and then the coders are dragged out of thier holes.

ps this is a video game the expectation of the dev team are nothing. If windows pulled the junk work; Microsoft would be bankrupt in a year.

pss your defence makes the lacking level of balance work look even worse, because that amazing duo didn’t do a very impressive job

Did you read any of that? They HAVE MORE THEN TWO people working on bugs….

How can you survive in today’s world without the ability to read?

Teulux.6732:

Did you read any of that? They HAVE MORE THEN TWO people working on bugs….

How can you survive in today’s world without the ability to read?

I read it and i dont belive your statments. Thus i ignored your spotty logic, ( honestly its poorly veiled hearsay and thats basicly a lie ), and keep my point moving

Now if you can scare up post from a dev that directly countermans the post that i link then we can talk. Note if Anet actually used thier PR team; Jon would have back tracked that 2 dev comment in a heart beat. Sadly Anet will get kicked over this for at least another week.

Developers and programmers are different. JP has stated anet has 2 developers, but there are WAY more programmers working on the various aspects of the game. Bug fixes falls on the programmers mainly, I imagine, not the 2 developers.

I don’t understand why bugs that are directly related to people’s gameplay experience are not treated with a higher priority. My main is a mesmer, so I know best about this class, but the same holds true for many other classes.
Please take a look at the mesmer changes in the latest patchnotes:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-November-15-2012/first
Then take a look at the list of bugs after the latest patch:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Overview-of-mesmer-bugs-after-patch/first#post755000
There are several things that I just don’t get:
I understand PvP is meant to be competitive, but why are things broken in WvW and PvE just to accomplish better balancing in PvP? Skills should simply be treated separately (and they already are, rarely) as it was in GW1. I don’t want to say that one game mode is more important than another, that would be pretentious, but most people primarily playing PvE probably don’t care about PvP and the other way round. It seems the designers aren’t thinking about the implications their changes have on all players. Which is a problem with a team of just two: they simply cannot play all classes and all game modes extensively. And as they may personally prefer one class over another, there’s nobody to actually tell them they’re wrong (except us). Also, some fixes just don’t work out. What was a portal cooldown incrase from 60 to 90 seconds meant to achieve for example? I don’t care about the change, but that’s not a fix or good balancing. On the other hand, it’s duration is still too short – so either the skill or the tooltip is wrong.
Then we know there are only two designers actively working on the profession skills. There are developers working on fixing the bugs of course, Teulux is right, but somebody has to tell them what to fix. Some of the bugs are hard to fix, like a teleport putting players below ground level or the LoS problems, sure. And I can totally live with that. But there are extensive lists in each profession forum that give a detailed overview of all bugs. So they don’t even have to consider all the hundreds of skills and traits in the game. Many of these listed bugs could be fixed within minutes, even if GW2’s core design was fundamentally broken. Some just require updating a tooltip. Nevertheless, some of them exist since headstart. Going through these lists, sorting out the easily fixable bugs, the bugs that are harder to fix and those that aren’t actually bugs but balancing related, takes a team of two less than one workday since the community already did most of the work. Going to each profession forum, asking people about the balancing related things, takes another day. This means two days of work and a lot of people would stop complaining.
Finally, there doesn’t seem to be a methodical beta testing phase. The Phantasmal Berserker bug introduced with the latest patch would have been noticed instantly if somebody actually played the class for a few minutes. Playing with a greatsword isn’t really unusual, this shouldn’t have slipped through. Again, I can only speak for mesmers, I’m sure there are similar problems with other classes.

I understand the Karka event’s planning started a long time ago. The devs probably knew about the culling problems and that the servers wouldn’t be able to handle the load (I’m sometimes wondering if they never did any load tests before starting the first beta, I’d expect many people to be in one place in an MMO, but ok) and so on, but there was no way this event could have been delayed, and the underlying problems require a lot of the work on the engine’s core mechanics as a dev already pointed out a few days ago. Actually, I’m kind of sorry for them, I wish this would have worked out better (On the other hand, in all honesty, how can an experienced team not foresee that people will be disconnected during the event, missing the rewards? This would have been one of the first things I would have discussed during a meeting. But this is going OT.)
What I really don’t understand is why a dedicated team, even if it’s just two people, cannot handle at least the more trivial profession bugs. What are they doing all day long? There are just a few profession fixes in the regular updates. We all hoped for a big improvement with the latest update, but many were disappointed. Obviously, especially the rangers.
If those two designers spend most of the time on other parts of the game, it’s not their fault if they’re told so, but it’s not good. Note again that I’m not even talking about balancing, which is a process that probably will go on forever. I don’t know many multiplayer games where this is different. At this point, I’m wondering if there exists some kind of learning process on ANet’s side. I’m working as a software engineer, beta tester and code reviewer for twelve years now, and things live this would never have slipped through in the companies I’ve been working for. Why is there no public beta server so those bugs can be identified and fixed before they are rolled out? Let the community do the work, this is working perfectly with with the wiki. Hundreds of people naturally see more than just a handful. I’m really afraid this won’t get better in the future, that would mean that I can just stop playing now. I still don’t know what to tell my friends, currently I tell everybody not to get the game but wait for a few months until this has settled, but I somehow doubt this will get better.