Humans aren´t real
underwater content
What are the main problems of underwater content in your opinion and how would you fix these?
Low mobility > Underwater Ley Lines
Unfamiliar moveset > Some good Environmental Weapon
Not so much things to do > More events and nodes
People wanted
Access to all their skills underwater
and
For some class balance regarding the underwater weapon abilities across the class
Anets response was to of course remove water from pvp and stop production of all underwater weapons from future black lion ticket weapon sets. Underwater weapons were also the first legendaries to be canned with HoT. They also drained lake doric before releasing it which is a shame.
Some can argue Esports for the removal of underwater pvp but the fix is simple as they just have to do what the players originally wanted. Create underwater access and variants to underwater skills and balance the classes while underwater. No reason for some classes to be OP and for Flesh Golem to be so afraid of getting wet.
If they have some free time with no plans for a new living world episode or update someday soon, they better start working on this again because it can be a huge draw. Especially when the water dragon awakens and we could get this feel of having an underwater MMO, which hasn’t been done before. All it needs is a rebalance of underwater weapon skills and allowing all utility skills to work.
I can apply over 3 stacks of bleeding.
If they have some free time with no plans for a new living world episode or update someday soon, they better start working on this again because it can be a huge draw. Especially when the water dragon awakens and we could get this feel of having an underwater MMO, which hasn’t been done before. All it needs is a rebalance of underwater weapon skills and allowing all utility skills to work.
yeah, i guess a few more weapon options for underwater couldnt hurt either.. 2/1 is a little low if you ask me.
I guess we wont see any development in this direction until (and if, he feels more like a meme tbh) underwater dragon comes. But agree, underwater MMO would be super awesome
Humans aren´t real
What are the main problems of underwater content in your opinion and how would you fix these?
The biggest problem with underwater is that a lot of people hate it with a passion, myself included. Anet decided that enough people dislike it to justify not working on it again. Its a catch 22 though, because these people won’t like underwater combat unless it gets a complete overhaul, yet if it does get a complete overhaul people will be upset because ANet worked on something they don’t like. I mean, just look at all the hate that Raids got (and still get to some degree), purely because some people consider it wasted development time because they have no interest in raiding.
Maybe more underwater puzzles, searching, DE’s with less combat and less combat in general. Some trenches, caves, lakes, sunken treasure, lave seepage, lost cities, seahorse mounts, more sea fauna and flora etc.
Most of my underwater experience has felt sluggish and I haven’t felt the kind of diversity and functionality in my skills as I do on land. And yes, content underwater is seriously lacking.
I don’t like fighting underwater right now. I would be in favour of a rework in that department. I do enjoy exploring underwater, though. Exploring the few puzzles, quaggan villages, secret holes and iconic areas (DF and old L.A for example) has been a highlight for me. I recall a ship in Orr that I explored years ago for an achievement that felt extremely disorienting as it was all lopsided reminding me a bit of the feeling I had the first time I went to Nolani Academy in GW1. And I still remember the first time I saw a whale under water. I was in awe.
Underwater content and the ability to swim was one of the things that I looked forward to before release. I’ve spent so many hours in LA in GW1 sitting on the steps of the beach and musing at the strange creature that swam near shore, wondering what other crazy things we would find in the water. And how special it was to find these little secret areas where your character could go into the water where it was over their head.
Maybe I’m a bit too easily amused by the underwater environment. But I thought I would just throw in my 2 cents to say that I would be all for some TLC to under water content.
Bloodcovered Backstabbin’ Blackjack the Blade, at your service.
Its pretty silly to have almost no viable skills/elites underwater.
Like, for one… Why can’t i as a warrior use headbutt ?
I know some people like to bring up logic when it comes to underwater combat and skill not existing but if that was the case ele would be limited to 2 of 4 attunements (can’t have fire / lightning[without serious drawbacks]). Seeing as they can however it makes no sense not to give other classes their skillset even engineer flamethrower/turret could have real world analogs as merits for their existence.
The main issues are:
- They’ve apparently had trouble converting a lot of skills/traits. It’s a combination of graphics and balance, for example in converting 2D AoE circles to 3D AoE spheres.
- There are some mobility issues
- There isn’t really any existing variation: at most, each prof has a 3 possible weapon sets (A/B, A/A, and B/B), so there’s a whole lot to do there.
- Combat isn’t well balanced around 3D movement.
The solutions are moot, in my opinion. Any one of the ways of addressing any of the above require some amount of developer time. And, for better or worse, the community has a whole host of other things we’d like to see.
The only way I could see ANet getting a chance to make this better is if/when we go after the underwater elder dragon and there’s an entire expac devoted to an underwater story.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
I love the concept of rich underwater content, but I agree it feels lacking as is. What weapons there are feel very weak, and it’s incredibly difficult to enter and stay in melee range with an NPC – when both of you are melee you spend half your time lurching past each other trying to close the gap. Simple fixes might be to buff weapon damage so they feel strong without any clever synergies (since 80% of your skills are disabled underwater there’s not much opportunity for synergy anyway), and add some kind of “tethering” mechanic to help keep foes in the appropriate range. But then of course there’s PvP balance.
What are the main problems of underwater content in your opinion and how would you fix these?
The biggest problem with underwater is that a lot of people hate it with a passion, myself included. Anet decided that enough people dislike it to justify not working on it again. Its a catch 22 though, because these people won’t like underwater combat unless it gets a complete overhaul, yet if it does get a complete overhaul people will be upset because ANet worked on something they don’t like. I mean, just look at all the hate that Raids got (and still get to some degree), purely because some people consider it wasted development time because they have no interest in raiding.
that is not reason for not having a big kitten lake on a map or something like that even if its empty
They need to rework and rethink the skills as many underwater skills, particularly the elites, don’t make sense. Why can I use regular minions but not the flesh golem? Why does the Ele have so few underwater elites. The Ele can use fire skills underwater but not the flaming Greatsword or the glyph of elemental (which has a water elemental). The way elite skills are disallowed underwater feels random.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
It does feel like a good idea that got abandoned midway and never touched again.
I think that if they don’t want to go back editing skills, they should still make some underwater content but make the focus more about exploration and navigation instead of just fights.
It does feel like a good idea that got abandoned midway and never touched again.
I think that if they don’t want to go back editing skills, they should still make some underwater content but make the focus more about exploration and navigation instead of just fights.
That ^ some of the most pretty places are underwater or can be accessed from underwater just because your combat doesnt work that doesnt mean it should be remove. At the end of the day exploration is one of the biggest pros the game has.
Its a catch 22 though, because these people won’t like underwater combat unless it gets a complete overhaul, yet if it does get a complete overhaul people will be upset because ANet worked on something they don’t like. I mean, just look at all the hate that Raids got (and still get to some degree), purely because some people consider it wasted development time because they have no interest in raiding.
Raids are a totally different kettle of fish. They’re not something that everyone has the time, or inclination to attempt or get into in any big way.
Now, everyone can get into Underwater Combat. I absolutely agree with you that it requires a complete overhaul. I actually find it quite fun in short bursts as it is, but it has so much more unexplored potential. It seems clear to me that the obvious time to overhaul underwater combat would be with the introduction of the Underwater Dragon content/expansion. It may have land-based minions, but we should expect underwater content with it.
Anyone who complains that ArenaNet might work on overhauling underwater content even though its something they don’t like should probably hold out until they try it. I have faith that ArenaNet will, with expansion-level funding, be able to create some fantastic underwater regions with some great new underwater mechanics. Such underwater overhaul could involve:-
Underwater Masteries – an obvious one but a key inclusion.
New Underwater Weapons – even if they’re land-based weapons being used underwater.
New Underwater Elite Specialisation – hopefully with the ability to set a new independent build when switching between land and water combat.
Utility Skills – reworking more utility skills so that they are usable underwater to broaden out builds.
What are the main problems of underwater content in your opinion and how would you fix these?
Problem: 3D positioning is hard to measure and control.
My fix suggestion: Implement a 3d “grid” during UW Combat (Melee and mid range only), which snaps the position of players and foes to specific places. Characters would pass from 1 point to the next when moving around in battle. “Ground” targeted attacks would snap to this grid too. This way, attack angles, distances and ranges would soon become familiar for the players, thus greatly minimizing the 3D originated confusion.
Problem: There are too few skills to use underwater.
My fix suggestion: Make a progressive translation of all the normal skills into UW versions. Began with 1 for each skillgroup for each profession, using exactly the same effect whenever possible, and simplified versions when UW environment don’t allow to use the original skill. Remembering to “snap to grid” the skills. Polish and balance progressively, adding more skills as the old ones become useful enough.
Problem: Big UW fight are confusing and frustrating.
My fix suggestion: Use the grid to order things. Hide other players that use the same snap spot you are using. Give collision detection to the bigger bosses, so people don’t get lost inside them.
“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks
Underwater is fine for exploration but underwater fighting ALWAYS sucks, whatever the game. I’d kill it off completely if I had the choice.
What are the main problems of underwater content in your opinion and how would you fix these?
Problems:
- lack of overview underwater
- lack of usable weapons
- utility skill restrictions
- horrible balance of anything that’s underwater
Solution: Exactly what they’ve already done. Abandon underwater content and never come back. The massive workload needed to fix underwater combat is better invested in terrestrial stuff.
Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
What are the main problems of underwater content in your opinion and how would you fix these?
Problems:
- lack of overview underwater
- lack of usable weapons
- utility skill restrictions
- horrible balance of anything that’s underwaterSolution: Exactly what they’ve already done. Abandon underwater content and never come back. The massive workload needed to fix underwater combat is better invested in terrestrial stuff.
I agree with your problems, but I would modify the solution to be avoid underwater COMBAT, not content. I would love to see more non combat use of underwater locales. A swimming puzzle similar to a jumping puzzle, underwater race, etc. Otherwise I agree that any effort to upgrade combat would just better spent elsewhere.
The movement system and trailing camera do not allow for purely vertical movement. That is why there is a ‘swim up’ key. Moving up and down require horizontal movement. That special button is a patch.
Still, I do fine under water and have posted more than once wishing for more content. After Southsun was released, I hoped for a bright and colorful coral reef map with Quaggon crafting tables and vendor stalls. Light PvE should be fine, if people do not want more intense combat like HoT maps offer.
Why not build onto the resort in Southsun? Karka cannot actually swim so anywhere you are not wading can be safe with the Quaggon guards keeping the dangerous fish and krait away. Arenanet could make a small Southsun crafting, sale, gathering, and exploration area, if they felt like investing in under water content.
The hardest content would be to give fish something to do. They do not move in schools or nibble on plants. Mobs on land do the same thing, if they are not attacking adversary types. Fish are a real problem in GW2. This is without considering the lack of casual virtual sports like fishing, growing, and hunting (as opposed to mob farming). Crafting is pretty boring, too.
All of the HoT areas are extremely minimalist. Tangled Depths is little more than a network of short cuts. Ember Bay is boring off of land. Bitterfrost and Lake Doric are mostly unbound magic gathering.
A better solution would be to identify how many people want “underwater stuff” because they love the aesthetic, and how many people want it because they love the 3D combat.
My own guess is that way more people (including me) are in the first bucket, they love the aesthetic. I’d be one hundred percent happy with something identical to “surface stuff”, except that it’s set in a watery locale.
Put, y’know, lead weights on my feet, or something. Diving suit me. I really don’t care, just give me those awesome underwater settings without the pain in the neck that trying to gauge a spherical AoE against 3D positioned targets, when I only have really bad weapons available.
What are the main problems of underwater content in your opinion and how would you fix these?
Problem: Number of underwater skills
Solution: Create an alternative for each skill locked out of underwater usage. New skills do not need same icon, name, nor similar function as current locked out skills – just same number of healing, utility, elite, and racial skills between above and below surface.
Problem: Balance issue. Some professions have clearly better skill choices.
Solution: Ultimately, same as above. For professions that are very clearly inferior or more frustrating to use underwater currently, they need better skills. A general balance pass will also be needed after adding skills, naturally, as well as after below.
Problem: Lack of useful traits. Some traits are either partially or outright fully useless underwater.
Solution: Either extend or replace said traits so that they have an underwater-only quality to them. Same as above, a balance pass will be needed with this.
Problem: Traits do not switch between land / underwater like skills and weapons do.
Solution: Make them switch, bro.
Problem: Limited customization in weapons, both skins (because Anet said ‘lolunderwatercombat’) and weapon types.
Solution: First, create more spear, harpoon, and trident skins.
Secondly, more importantly: Amphibious weapons. Make certain weapons (suggested: spear, sword, pistol, dagger, wand, focus) to be usable both above and underwater. Thus underwater weapon slots get 2 per set (main-/two-handed and off-hand); when no underwater weapon equipped, use equipped amphibious weapon when possible (akin to when using the same weapon in main or offhand with both weapon sets when second does not have two weapons). This would be the hardest to do, due to both coding and UI art changes.
Problem: Cannot look completely up or down – players are limited to a 90 degree (roughly) camera span from -45 to 45 degree (if straight forward is 0 degree).
Solution: Expand camera span to 180 degree from straight down to straight up. This helps with mobility and enemy targeting -if an enemy is directly below you, you either need to swim away and re-angle yourself, or use the no-default-key sink button; similarly for if an enemy is directly above you, but enemy NPCs can always attack, with easy, form directly above or below you (no camera problems for AI).
Fixing underwater combat (but not underwater content – with exception of camera angle-based movement, underwater content is perfectly fine and enjoyable) would indeed be intensive but I feel that it would be worth it to at least fix the problems with skill and trait usability, as that’s really the core problem.
I do not agree with the “just abandon it” since it’s a perfectly viable and mostly-there aspect of the game, and abandoning it only limits the devs in both mechanics and story in the long run. I mean, for the recent release, they had to make some arbitrary (and not terribly well done) excuse for why Lake Doric has no underwater combat. Why waste time thinking of how to avoid the lakes and rivers of the game’s lore?
The only benefit it has in abandoning it, ultimately, is three less skins per weapon set and immediate time being spent on other things (but not long-term time, imo, as shown with Lake Doric).
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I don’t really hate underwater combat because i believe it’s its own special thing i do agree tho that it should be limited if theres no chance for the devs to actually balance it.
What im against tho is the way they achieve this, jsut because you dont want to have underwater combat in game that doesnt mean other kind of event should not exist and be connected with underwater environments nor that they should straight up remove water from maps or if they cant remove that just have it being empty.
There are so many nice locations in gw2 poi’s/vistas/hero points etc that are conencted to underwater why cant we jsut have these exist. And hell it would hurt no one if bitterfrost frontier was like how the map art was, a giant lake with beautiful underwater scenery. (cries on the inside on thought of what might happen to drakkar lake).
(edited by zealex.9410)
Aside from the combat shortcomings, Arenanet could create a small, casual, and pleasant experience without a lot, or any, combat to ease players into underwater content. For example, they could tack on a mini game using the dolphin transform from the Aquatic Ruins fractal in addition to crafting, swimming (in a swimsuit by the Southsun resort), and enjoying a brightly lit aquarium.
The HoT maps make it easy to dislike being underwater and are more off-putting than core Tyria.
What I’d like to see/think would need to happen:
- Either present robust options for max tier and exotic Aquatic Breathers or treat them as skins only and use the stats from normal helmets. I suspect the latter option would be easier.
- Review things (i.e., skills, Revenant Legends) that are not usable UW and change the state of those things which can be changed without a massive effort. As it is, build options are too limited and professions can be shoehorned into specific builds UW due to lack of variety. For instance, Rev Spear is a hybrid weapon, relying on some direct damage and a lot of condi. If your normal gear is for a Power build, your only UW weapon option is weak.
- Look at and revise damage coefficients for UW weapon skills. As it is, on most professions the UW build is much weaker than the land build.
Aside from the combat shortcomings, Arenanet could create a small, casual, and pleasant experience without a lot, or any, combat to ease players into underwater content. For example, they could tack on a mini game using the dolphin transform from the Aquatic Ruins fractal in addition to crafting, swimming (in a swimsuit by the Southsun resort), and enjoying a brightly lit aquarium.
The HoT maps make it easy to dislike being underwater and are more off-putting than core Tyria.
the hot maps that barely have underwater?
Aside from the combat shortcomings, Arenanet could create a small, casual, and pleasant experience without a lot, or any, combat to ease players into underwater content. For example, they could tack on a mini game using the dolphin transform from the Aquatic Ruins fractal in addition to crafting, swimming (in a swimsuit by the Southsun resort), and enjoying a brightly lit aquarium.
The HoT maps make it easy to dislike being underwater and are more off-putting than core Tyria.
the hot maps that barely have underwater?
Until you find the hidden layers of water. I think it is Tangled Depths(?) that has a huge interconnecting water tunnels across the whole map, I didn’t even know that was there until I needed to go there for Caladbolg.
- Tangled Depths
- Ember Bay
- Bitterfrost Frontier
- Lake Doric
Compare underwater content of these maps to core maps
- Tangled Depths
- Ember Bay
- Bitterfrost Frontier
- Lake Doric
Compare underwater content of these maps to core maps
tangled depths: nothing wrong with an underwater tunnel system
Ember Bay: the underwater is baron
Bitterfrost frontier: they scraped the lore about it being a huge lake and it barely ahs any water at all
Lake Doric: i dont wonna talk about that.
Aside from the combat shortcomings, Arenanet could create a small, casual, and pleasant experience without a lot, or any, combat to ease players into underwater content. For example, they could tack on a mini game using the dolphin transform from the Aquatic Ruins fractal in addition to crafting, swimming (in a swimsuit by the Southsun resort), and enjoying a brightly lit aquarium.
The HoT maps make it easy to dislike being underwater and are more off-putting than core Tyria.
the hot maps that barely have underwater?
Until you find the hidden layers of water. I think it is Tangled Depths(?) that has a huge interconnecting water tunnels across the whole map, I didn’t even know that was there until I needed to go there for Caladbolg.
ye i had forgoten about the underwater tunnel system there is in td, but honestly what about that is so bad ?
Aside from the combat shortcomings, Arenanet could create a small, casual, and pleasant experience without a lot, or any, combat to ease players into underwater content. For example, they could tack on a mini game using the dolphin transform from the Aquatic Ruins fractal in addition to crafting, swimming (in a swimsuit by the Southsun resort), and enjoying a brightly lit aquarium.
The HoT maps make it easy to dislike being underwater and are more off-putting than core Tyria.
the hot maps that barely have underwater?
Until you find the hidden layers of water. I think it is Tangled Depths(?) that has a huge interconnecting water tunnels across the whole map, I didn’t even know that was there until I needed to go there for Caladbolg.
ye i had forgoten about the underwater tunnel system there is in td, but honestly what about that is so bad ?
Nothing wrong with it, I thought it was pretty cool. Just pointing out there is water there, just not so obvious (to me anyway)
Most of the “problems” are in the players’ heads. Just like the stigma with desert borderland, it doesn’t matter how much anet improves it, it will always be called trash and shunned.
The most legit reason I can think of to call underwater combat bad is how the camera clips with the water surface.
Aside from the combat shortcomings, Arenanet could create a small, casual, and pleasant experience without a lot, or any, combat to ease players into underwater content. For example, they could tack on a mini game using the dolphin transform from the Aquatic Ruins fractal in addition to crafting, swimming (in a swimsuit by the Southsun resort), and enjoying a brightly lit aquarium.
The HoT maps make it easy to dislike being underwater and are more off-putting than core Tyria.
the hot maps that barely have underwater?
Until you find the hidden layers of water. I think it is Tangled Depths(?) that has a huge interconnecting water tunnels across the whole map, I didn’t even know that was there until I needed to go there for Caladbolg.
ye i had forgoten about the underwater tunnel system there is in td, but honestly what about that is so bad ?
No events, minimum mob variety, very few interesting places to see, extremely isolated from everything else, boring “mechanic” with the piranhas, super low population, etc. Only reasons to go there is to get an HP and later with the Caladbolg shards.
“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks
Aside from the combat shortcomings, Arenanet could create a small, casual, and pleasant experience without a lot, or any, combat to ease players into underwater content. For example, they could tack on a mini game using the dolphin transform from the Aquatic Ruins fractal in addition to crafting, swimming (in a swimsuit by the Southsun resort), and enjoying a brightly lit aquarium.
The HoT maps make it easy to dislike being underwater and are more off-putting than core Tyria.
the hot maps that barely have underwater?
Until you find the hidden layers of water. I think it is Tangled Depths(?) that has a huge interconnecting water tunnels across the whole map, I didn’t even know that was there until I needed to go there for Caladbolg.
ye i had forgoten about the underwater tunnel system there is in td, but honestly what about that is so bad ?
No events, minimum mob variety, very few interesting places to see, extremely isolated from everything else, boring “mechanic” with the piranhas, super low population, etc. Only reasons to go there is to get an HP and later with the Caladbolg shards.
U dont need to have a tone of reasons to have some interesting or beautiful variety in maps. All u need is variety in maps and in this case watter (giant kitten waterfalls/ lakes /rivers/ underwater caves etc)