Guild Wars 2

Kevan.8912:

imsoenthused.1634:

Ascended goes against ever thing great that Guild Wars once stood for, and should never have had better stats. Seriously, in the sequel to one of the games that proved pure horizontal progression and prestige skins work great, how do you get this wrong?

yeah. as gw showed in the past, i think it could still work, evem with a more wow-used ppl.
but of course, it requires much more work than throwing in a dozen of new time-and gold-sucking gear.
hope devs will take the good way. don t know if it’s too late

I think you’re missing the point, mate. You’re right. It requires more time. And when Anet implemented ascended gear originally, what makes you think they had that time.

The advantage to gear progression is that it’s tried and true. It’s low risk. I’m sure if it was your millions of dollars, you’d have gone for a higher risk strategy that took longer to implement.

I, on the other hand, would probably do what Anet did.

Vayne.8563:

I, on the other hand, would probably do what Anet did.

ooook. buuuuuuut….
it’s not my work to understand their choices.
i’m a customer, a noob and stupid one. and i just like/dislike it that’s all that is required to me.

but still, also if i know it now…as it’s not MY million, i think that i’ll still find the game worse than it was in the beginning before ascended come. no effect on me.

if you don’t like the game as it is, but you find this explanations satisfactory so that you can make the game more interesting, i’m glad for you
so, it becomes a “vayne likes vertical progression”. and i respect it, it’s your right.

lordkrall.7241:

imsoenthused.1634:

No, I’m talking about the game that had a very short vertical progression period due to its low level cap, with easily attainable BiS gear, that I experienced years of unadulterated joy playing, and still load up and enjoy occasionally to this day. You know, the one that Guild Wars 2 makes me want to play all over again every time I load it up.

And yet you are ignoring the part about it being REQUIRED in order to even experience the MAIN STORY of the game, whilst in GW2 you can do every single thing in the whole game without doing any vertical progression other than leveling.

I guess I am, but it’s out of ignorance. I really can’t think of what in the world you are talking about. Once you had maxed armor and maxed weapons, which were very easily aquired, anything else was cosmetic. So why don’t you speak up and tell me what I’m missing?

You required 10 000 Kurzick/Luxon points in order to get past a certain point in the Faction Storyline.
You also required certain ranks of Sunspear in order to get past several points in Nightfall.

Kevan.8912:

Vayne.8563:

I, on the other hand, would probably do what Anet did.

ooook. buuuuuuut….
it’s not my work to understand their choices.
i’m a customer, a noob and stupid one. and i just like/dislike it that’s all that is required to me.

but still, also if i know it now…as it’s not MY million, i think that i’ll still find the game worse than it was in the beginning before ascended come. no effect on me.

if you don’t like the game as it is, but you find this explanations satisfactory so that you can make the game more interesting, i’m glad for you
so, it becomes a “vayne likes vertical progression”. and i respect it, it’s your right.

I’m not sure I agree that it’s not your work to understand choices. Being an “educated consumer” makes any argument you make stronger.

Sure you don’t like vertical progression…I get that completely. But complaining about something and saying they should have done something else, when that something else is probably more risky (and as you already pointed out, time consuming), well… it derails your entire premise.

You’re entitled not to like anything you want, but if there is a reason for something being done and you say, I don’t care about that reason, then you’re losing sympathy for your cause.

In other words, suggestions about what should have been done are less helpful to the game over all if you don’t understand why the original change was made in the first place, and even more so if you don’t care why it was done.

lordkrall.7241:

You required 10 000 Kurzick/Luxon points in order to get past a certain point in the Faction Storyline.
You also required certain ranks of Sunspear in order to get past several points in Nightfall.

Oh, that. You got enough of those points just exploring the areas and doing quests that I never felt like I was grinding to meet those requirements. Even later when I went back to get 10000 Luxon points, just to finish up the protector title, it was a negligible grind compared to the nightmare of ascended gear. Something you could knock out in an afternoon.

I finally got one ascended weapon and a set of rings and necklace for my main….

… but I have 2 more level 80 characters, and they just feel kitten and I don’t like playing with them anymore cause I know I can never afford to outfit them as well

IMHO, understanding that reasons behind doesn t give an input to “my cause”…and doesn t make my game more interesting.
money is money. everything has that final reason.
obviously they found that it was the easiest way to bigger results.
i m sure it s a much more difficult process to understand, but it s enough for me.
their money won t come from me though, this is for sure.

about my cause? well…yes, i really hope game changes, in the direction i thought it was going towards. but ascended are not going away.

imsoenthused.1634:

Oh, that. You got enough of those points just exploring the areas and doing quests that I never felt like I was grinding to meet those requirements. Even later when I went back to get 10000 Luxon points, just to finish up the protector title, it was a negligible grind compared to the nightmare of ascended gear. Something you could knock out in an afternoon.

And yet it is REQUIRED, while in GW2 you are not mechanically blocked form anything for not having Ascended gear.

And no, just doing quests in GW1 (without doing repeating stuff) you would get about 8500 points (for Luxon), which is 1500 points less than you would need in order to progress. Sunspear also required quite a bit of going out of your way in order to get enough.
At least back when I did it around release.

Sure it was not really that hard or annoying to do it, but the point remains that it was actually REQUIRED, and yet people don’t seem to have any issue with it, while they have major issues with the non-required Ascended gear in GW2.

lordkrall.7241:

imsoenthused.1634:

Oh, that. You got enough of those points just exploring the areas and doing quests that I never felt like I was grinding to meet those requirements. Even later when I went back to get 10000 Luxon points, just to finish up the protector title, it was a negligible grind compared to the nightmare of ascended gear. Something you could knock out in an afternoon.

And yet it is REQUIRED, while in GW2 you are not mechanically blocked form anything for not having Ascended gear.

And no, just doing quests in GW1 (without doing repeating stuff) you would get about 8500 points (for Luxon), which is 1500 points less than you would need in order to progress. Sunspear also required quite a bit of going out of your way in order to get enough.
At least back when I did it around release.

Sure it was not really that hard or annoying to do it, but the point remains that it was actually REQUIRED, and yet people don’t seem to have any issue with it, while they have major issues with the non-required Ascended gear in GW2.

I guess because grind for required points in GW1 was more fun than grind for Ascended in GW2. Plus you can really enjoy GW2 now only by totally ignoring ascended.

I don’t dislike vertical progression; I’m a child of growing up on old RPGs where the level (or gold) grind was a given fact of almost any one you picked up. I shudder to remember how many hours I spent killing Goldmen in Dragon Warrior on the NES. Or how long it took me to power level to kill Astos in Final Fantasy.

Of course, the best game I played in the RPG for horizontal work? Ultima: Quest of the Avatar. (The fourth game.) Tell me honestly that game wasn’t incredibly horizontal. If you haven’t played it . . . it’s free, go find it, they want you to play it.

(It also gets the stamp of the worst “Guide Dang It” game I played from beginning to end. No, worse than Simon’s Quest.)

I’ll just namecheck the Ys series as extraordinarily fun but incredibly focused on grind in points. Especially the first two games, not so much the seventh.

I play Monster Hunter, and if there’s a game which marries horizontal and vertical progression in a way I enjoy it’s this one. Many weapon types, armors which bestow skills while following a progression of ranks. (Of course, the highest rank armors aren’t always the best to wear into some situations.) And the combat incredibly focused on skill, preparation, and timing rather than “get strong through level grinding”. Downside to the game? Incredibly “unfair” RNG loot system. There are rumors some players sacrifice their firstborn to infernal contracts just to see a Heavenly Scale for their top-tier weapon upgrades. Then weep for they find the next stage requires two more.

So, let me sum up because I know there are people not going to fully read this.

- Like vertical progression, so long as it’s not pointlessly “watch the numbers go up”. Don’t mind it if it’s that way so long as it’s not mindless grind one notch out of a thousand to hit the next increase.

- Like horizontal progression as a theory, would love to see it in a way it actually works.

- So long as I’m not setting up a game controller with rubber bands or delayed button press macros to grind I’m good. (See: Final Fantasy 12, Naglamuur auto-leveling farm)

lordkrall.7241:

imsoenthused.1634:

Oh, that. You got enough of those points just exploring the areas and doing quests that I never felt like I was grinding to meet those requirements. Even later when I went back to get 10000 Luxon points, just to finish up the protector title, it was a negligible grind compared to the nightmare of ascended gear. Something you could knock out in an afternoon.

And yet it is REQUIRED, while in GW2 you are not mechanically blocked form anything for not having Ascended gear.

And no, just doing quests in GW1 (without doing repeating stuff) you would get about 8500 points (for Luxon), which is 1500 points less than you would need in order to progress. Sunspear also required quite a bit of going out of your way in order to get enough.
At least back when I did it around release.

Sure it was not really that hard or annoying to do it, but the point remains that it was actually REQUIRED, and yet people don’t seem to have any issue with it, while they have major issues with the non-required Ascended gear in GW2.

And what you are ignoring is that for many gamers, myself included, ascended armor is required by the the simple virtue of being BiS. So, again for me and gamers like me, the ony difference between ascended gear and grinding out those kurzick and luxon points is that getting the the points was something that didn’t take too long and that I enjoyed doing, while ascended gear takes way too long and I don’t enjoy doing it at all.

imsoenthused.1634:

lordkrall.7241:

imsoenthused.1634:

Oh, that. You got enough of those points just exploring the areas and doing quests that I never felt like I was grinding to meet those requirements. Even later when I went back to get 10000 Luxon points, just to finish up the protector title, it was a negligible grind compared to the nightmare of ascended gear. Something you could knock out in an afternoon.

And yet it is REQUIRED, while in GW2 you are not mechanically blocked form anything for not having Ascended gear.

And no, just doing quests in GW1 (without doing repeating stuff) you would get about 8500 points (for Luxon), which is 1500 points less than you would need in order to progress. Sunspear also required quite a bit of going out of your way in order to get enough.
At least back when I did it around release.

Sure it was not really that hard or annoying to do it, but the point remains that it was actually REQUIRED, and yet people don’t seem to have any issue with it, while they have major issues with the non-required Ascended gear in GW2.

And what you are ignoring is that for many gamers, myself included, ascended armor is required by the the simple virtue of being BiS. So, again for me and gamers like me, the ony difference between ascended gear and grinding out those kurzick and luxon points is that getting the the points was something that didn’t take too long and that I enjoyed doing, while ascended gear takes way too long and I don’t enjoy doing it at all.

And something that shouldn’t be forgotten is that there may well be some people in the game that enjoy the process of making their Ascended gear. Different people will like different things.

I agree with the OP.

The addition of vertical progression at level cap via ascended gear has made the game unenjoyable for me.

I generally try to give things a chance even if my first perception is negative, and so continued to play, and spend, even after the first steps of gear grind were added. I found GW2 with the addition of ascended gear to be a job for which I was not being paid rather than a fun experience for which I was willing to continue to pay.

OP, you are not alone in your opinion.

Ashen.2907:

I agree with the OP.

The addition of vertical progression at level cap via ascended gear has made the game unenjoyable for me.

I generally try to give things a chance even if my first perception is negative, and so continued to play, and spend, even after the first steps of gear grind were added. I found GW2 with the addition of ascended gear to be a job for which I was not being paid rather than a fun experience for which I was willing to continue to pay.

OP, you are not alone in your opinion.

^^
+100500

Everyone has a tipping point. This one is for you guys.

I also dislike the vertical progression implemented in GW2. I have two reasons:

• Like others in the thread, I was expecting gear acquisition to follow the GW model. Everything said about gear prior to launch indicated this. It’s my preferred game style, so I was looking forward to it.
• More importantly, progression in other games is tied to doing new content. This is not the case in GW2. Ascended mats are obtained by repeating the same events that have been around since launch. I respect ANet for trying to promote massive “open-world” events. However, the combination of the format (open-world); character abilities (limited skill choices, too many weapons with skill #1 being used 80-90% of the time); mob mechanics (big, telegraphed attacks); and the game’s inability to allow for filtering the particle blur — all make these events tiresome rather than fun.

I understand about “buying” time, but buying time for what? Living World has — with a few exceptions — been just more “click this” plus “zerg this.” I’m still waiting for the game to serve up new, fun things to do. Maybe 2014 will see some of this, maybe not.

imsoenthused.1634:

lordkrall.7241:

imsoenthused.1634:

Oh, that. You got enough of those points just exploring the areas and doing quests that I never felt like I was grinding to meet those requirements. Even later when I went back to get 10000 Luxon points, just to finish up the protector title, it was a negligible grind compared to the nightmare of ascended gear. Something you could knock out in an afternoon.

And yet it is REQUIRED, while in GW2 you are not mechanically blocked form anything for not having Ascended gear.

And no, just doing quests in GW1 (without doing repeating stuff) you would get about 8500 points (for Luxon), which is 1500 points less than you would need in order to progress. Sunspear also required quite a bit of going out of your way in order to get enough.
At least back when I did it around release.

Sure it was not really that hard or annoying to do it, but the point remains that it was actually REQUIRED, and yet people don’t seem to have any issue with it, while they have major issues with the non-required Ascended gear in GW2.

And what you are ignoring is that for many gamers, myself included, ascended armor is required by the the simple virtue of being BiS. So, again for me and gamers like me, the ony difference between ascended gear and grinding out those kurzick and luxon points is that getting the the points was something that didn’t take too long and that I enjoyed doing, while ascended gear takes way too long and I don’t enjoy doing it at all.

So what you’re saying is, people who enjoy working to towards a largely insignificant stat increase should not be able to do so because you are not willing to put forth that effort, even though if you opt NOT to work towards it, the game is pretty much exactly the same for you now as it has always been?

Just sounds like greed to me.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

- Like vertical progression, so long as it’s not pointlessly “watch the numbers go up”. Don’t mind it if it’s that way so long as it’s not mindless grind one notch out of a thousand to hit the next increase.

i think that this is a sort of mindless grind watching the numbers go up (of mats, gold and laurels…and, although it is just a little change, also of gear stats).
some hundreds hours too much for me to enjoy.
lifelong hours doing some things i’d never had done if it wasn’t required for ascended.
and that i’m not gonna do! (craft on my main is zeroed. sell everything…and 400k karma i will never use)

however, thanks for your “feedback” ^^
de gustibus non disputandum est

Kevan.8912:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

- Like vertical progression, so long as it’s not pointlessly “watch the numbers go up”. Don’t mind it if it’s that way so long as it’s not mindless grind one notch out of a thousand to hit the next increase.

i think that this is a sort of mindless grind watching the numbers go up (of mats, gold and laurels…and, although it is just a little change, also of gear stats).
some hundreds hours too much for me to enjoy.
lifelong hours doing some things i’d never had done if it wasn’t required for ascended.
and that i’m not gonna do! (craft on my main is zeroed. sell everything…and 400k karma i will never use)

however, thanks for your “feedback” ^^
de gustibus non disputandum est

See, this is actually the point that everyone on the other side of the argument is saying to you.

YOU CAN CHOOSE NOT TO MAKE ASCENDED ITEMS. NOT MAKING THE ASCENDED ITEMS DOES NOT LOCK YOU OUT OF ANY CONTENT.

Kevan.8912:

i think that vertical progression hurts my gaming experience.
i feel forced doing dailies, world events, etc…because it s necessary to craft ascended, to avoid any “handicap” when playing with other better geared ppl.
don t care if it s relevant or not that stats difference in wvw o pve. just hate that.

i loved to grind for a title. for skins. i felt really motivated and found it a free choice.
vertical progression binds me to a sense of inferiority, grind like a necessary work to be done for a mandatory aim.
my two cents.

i already stated it in the opening, and throughout the whole post.
it’ s a FEELING of being left behind. of time wasting if not working on it, as it’s so long to acquire. frustration.
a sword of Damocles hanged over head.
(still, i don’t think its just a feeling, but let’s ignore it for now)
something that purely cosmetic-oriented grind didn’t made me feel.
and made many of us choose gw2 to many other traditional mmo.

again…if you want keep screaming your ideas, no problem. my “virtual” ears are fine.
there’s no argument in this post. everyone expressed his opinion…and, as always, someone tries to “teach” his truth…

Kevan.8912:

i think that this is a sort of mindless grind watching the numbers go up (of mats, gold and laurels…and, although it is just a little change, also of gear stats).
some hundreds hours too much for me to enjoy.
lifelong hours doing some things i’d never had done if it wasn’t required for ascended.
and that i’m not gonna do! (craft on my main is zeroed. sell everything…and 400k karma i will never use)

however, thanks for your “feedback” ^^
de gustibus non disputandum est

It’s a weird threshold for me, and I’ll fully admit it. Devoting 10 hours out of a 70 hour RPG so I can beat a bonus boss for a vanity item useless to me by the time I can acquire it? Sure, I’ll do that.

70 hours total playtime for a 5% increase in DPS? Only if there is nothing else left for me to do. I’m perfectly willing to burn the time, but only if I’ve done everything else and I’m doing it at my own pace. (See: Disgaea, Afternoon of Darkness level building guides). If I got other things more interesting? They happen first. That includes other games.

And I weep for I am receiving Pokemon within a month. There may be a noticeable drop in time logged from “some daily” to “did he die or something?” after it arrives.

Subdue.5479:

So what you’re saying is, people who enjoy working to towards a largely insignificant stat increase should not be able to do so because you are not willing to put forth that effort, even though if you opt NOT to work towards it, the game is pretty much exactly the same for you now as it has always been?

Just sounds like greed to me.

What sounds like greed to me is people buying a game that advertised, “Everyone should have max statistical gear by level 80.” and moaning about nothing to work for — when every other game out there not only offered but advertised stat increase progression.

I personally don’t see any problem with the concept of Vertical Progression. However:

• If a game relies too heavily on Vertical Progression (takes months to gear to a specific spec), then Horizontal Progression (that is, progression that gives more options) in the form of builds largely becomes pointless, since you can’t try different things out.

• Most games simply have a lazy, uninspired ways of doing it. Usually it’s ‘get X tokens to buy this piece of armour’ (which you’ll need to save the world / drive off a threat. It’s almost as though them Token-grubbing vendors don’t care about the threat) and that’s it.

Ideally, Vertical Progression would be either coupled with Horizontal Progression (Certain milestones in leveling and WvW Masteries being an example), or a focus on Horizontal Progression with minor parts of VP (finding extra Attribute points in GW1 being an example).

Also, Vertical Progression and it’s aquisition would make sense, so to speak. In GW1, you needed a certain essence to Infuse armour and take it to a Seer, thus providing protection against Spectral Agony.

In GW2, any Tom, kitten or Harry can craft these counters to a force you don’t actually understand.

Subdue.5479:

imsoenthused.1634:

lordkrall.7241:

imsoenthused.1634:

Oh, that. You got enough of those points just exploring the areas and doing quests that I never felt like I was grinding to meet those requirements. Even later when I went back to get 10000 Luxon points, just to finish up the protector title, it was a negligible grind compared to the nightmare of ascended gear. Something you could knock out in an afternoon.

And yet it is REQUIRED, while in GW2 you are not mechanically blocked form anything for not having Ascended gear.

And no, just doing quests in GW1 (without doing repeating stuff) you would get about 8500 points (for Luxon), which is 1500 points less than you would need in order to progress. Sunspear also required quite a bit of going out of your way in order to get enough.
At least back when I did it around release.

Sure it was not really that hard or annoying to do it, but the point remains that it was actually REQUIRED, and yet people don’t seem to have any issue with it, while they have major issues with the non-required Ascended gear in GW2.

And what you are ignoring is that for many gamers, myself included, ascended armor is required by the the simple virtue of being BiS. So, again for me and gamers like me, the ony difference between ascended gear and grinding out those kurzick and luxon points is that getting the the points was something that didn’t take too long and that I enjoyed doing, while ascended gear takes way too long and I don’t enjoy doing it at all.

So what you’re saying is, people who enjoy working to towards a largely insignificant stat increase should not be able to do so because you are not willing to put forth that effort, even though if you opt NOT to work towards it, the game is pretty much exactly the same for you now as it has always been?

Just sounds like greed to me.

Wow, you need to work on reading comprehension. As I explained, I am working towards it. I feel forced to work towards it because they decided to put a completely unnecessary stat increase on it. I just hate it and by extension them for making me feel forced to do so. I also feel they betrayed the entire spirit of what made Guild Wars such a great game by pandering to people who like bad games.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Subdue.5479:

So what you’re saying is, people who enjoy working to towards a largely insignificant stat increase should not be able to do so because you are not willing to put forth that effort, even though if you opt NOT to work towards it, the game is pretty much exactly the same for you now as it has always been?

Just sounds like greed to me.

What sounds like greed to me is people buying a game that advertised, “Everyone should have max statistical gear by level 80.” and moaning about nothing to work for — when every other game out there not only offered but advertised stat increase progression.

I agree with you and I don’t agree with you.

You seem to liken this to every other game out there, but it’s not. That is to say, nothing prevents someone from doing all the content, whether there is BIS gear that requires grind in the game or not.

There’s a difference between what we have here and a gear treadmill. If Anet keeps releasing more tiers of gear, you’d be right to compare it to other games. But other games continuously introduce more tiers of gear.

Frankly, I don’t think we’ll see anything else but legendary which will have the same stats as ascended from this point on, because there are enough people that will play to grind achievement points, so Anet has found the other solution they needed.

However, no one can say for sure, until we see what the future holds.

I really do believe ascended is the right move. However I also believe that it was intended to be in already but made it in late. I see Ascended as an in between where stats won’t matter much but it IS still an increase in stats to sate both sides of the spectrum. Also they will need infusions for agony resistance so Vertical progression players can continue going verticle in a diagonal way. They are now getting higher and higher agony resistance for fractals. Progressing verticle due to agony stats yet have little effect with most of the horizontal progressing players. I think it was designed rather well and that ascended is the last Tier.

Anything more then it would seem off.

for me..it’s just a matter about there is or there is not a vertical progression.
and how much time does it take.
now, there is vert progr, and is a very long and expensive one. everything else is just details

@indigo +1
everybody teaches us that every mmo needs a progression and grind…and that we were wrong in buying it
but why did they choose gw2 if every game they refer too relies heavily on gear like d3 or wow

You know, I don’t really care about Ascended Gear one way or the other. I hear lots of complaints about it being uber-expensive. I haven’t spent any money on Ascended Gear. I have a few items from laurels and such. My crafting is moving along steadily, it’s in the upper 400s. It may take me 6 months or a year to craft the Armor, should I decide to do so. Wasn’t that the idea? To introduce something that took some time to achieve? What’s the big rush? Maybe all those in a hurry are Fractal players, I just don’t know. But, if you don’t buy your materials, it’s not very expensive…at least, not for me. =)

Subdue.5479:

Honestly, A.Net is going to take fire no matter what they do. They have a small but very vocal minority – you guys – complaining about vertical progression, and then they have a massive exodus of players leaving the game because they’ve got nothing left to accomplish after 3 weeks of playing.

I think they handled the situation very well. They released a tier of items to work towards for those who want to have something to strive for which does not give a boost large enough to obsolete the more accessible exotic gear.

All in all, good job A.Net.

Actually, I thought it was impressive how badly they messed up a situation that should have been very easy. It should have been very obvious to them before they released the game that legendaries were not enough, but they spent all their time making temporary minigames instead of enriching the world with quests for new skills, weapons, skins, guild upgrades and challenges. Then they panicked and took the easiest way out by releasing ugly armors with stat boost and place it firmly into grind territory, nullifying every principle they used to stand for. Yes, good job Anet, it was impressive how badly you managed what should have been a very simple formula for success.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

You know, I don’t really care about Ascended Gear one way or the other. I hear lots of complaints about it being uber-expensive. I haven’t spent any money on Ascended Gear. I have a few items from laurels and such. My crafting is moving along steadily, it’s in the upper 400s. It may take me 6 months or a year to craft the Armor, should I decide to do so. Wasn’t that the idea? To introduce something that took some time to achieve? What’s the big rush? Maybe all those in a hurry are Fractal players, I just don’t know. But, if you don’t buy your materials, it’s not very expensive…at least, not for me. =)

The problem is that they put a stat increase on it. Honestly, if they’d left it with exotic stats with the addition of agony resistance then I’d be perfectly happy. I’d feel like I had reached a fully geared position, and I’d be relaxed and playing the game, enjoying myself. Instead I don’t feel fully geared, I’m not relaxed, and as a result I’m not enjoying myself nearly as much as I would be. I feel the constant compulsion to work towards ascended gear so I can be “done” and start really playing the game. This is a problem for me in most MMORPGs, and RPGs in general, but the one game that avoided it and as a result gained my loyalty and love for years was Guild Wars. I just wanted the same thing from its sequel and I’m incredibly disappointed that the developers decided to head in a different direction.

lordkrall.7241:

imsoenthused.1634:

The vocal minority complaining about vertical progression… Oh, you mean Guild Wars 1 fans. How silly of us.

Oh you mean the game that had vertical progression that was REQUIRED to even continue the story?

blown way out of proportion so as to be comical

imsoenthused.1634:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

You know, I don’t really care about Ascended Gear one way or the other. I hear lots of complaints about it being uber-expensive. I haven’t spent any money on Ascended Gear. I have a few items from laurels and such. My crafting is moving along steadily, it’s in the upper 400s. It may take me 6 months or a year to craft the Armor, should I decide to do so. Wasn’t that the idea? To introduce something that took some time to achieve? What’s the big rush? Maybe all those in a hurry are Fractal players, I just don’t know. But, if you don’t buy your materials, it’s not very expensive…at least, not for me. =)

The problem is that they put a stat increase on it. Honestly, if they’d left it with exotic stats with the addition of agony resistance then I’d be perfectly happy. I’d feel like I had reached a fully geared position, and I’d be relaxed and playing the game, enjoying myself. Instead I don’t feel fully geared, I’m not relaxed, and as a result I’m not enjoying myself nearly as much as I would be. I feel the constant compulsion to work towards ascended gear so I can be “done” and start really playing the game.

again, +1
it expresses perfectly what i feel when logging in.
and then, it’s a matter of seconds before logging out.

I prefer to ignore any content i dont need or want.

i dont do pvp or wvw or jp or dungeon or legendary or ascended or even map completion.

they just arent my cup of tea.

Vayne.8563:

Thank you for posting this. I agree with this. I would prefer there was no vertical progression in the game. I don’t think that it makes this a better game.

Dude… As far as I know when you play the game you level up a character. And as soon as it’s a level 80 and the vertical progression is over you make another one. So there is not so much difference between you and people that want to progress their characters instead of creating a new one.

Kevan.8912:

i loved to grind for a title. for skins. i felt really motivated and found it a free choice.

You loved grind for a title? Really?! I hated gw1 titles… It really felt bad playing to get them.

HiddenNick.7206:

Dude… As far as I know when you play the game you level up a character. And as soon as it’s a level 80 and the vertical progression is over you make another one. So there is not so much difference between you and people that want to progress their characters instead of creating a new one.

leveling to 80 is a pleasure.
everything you do gives exp. everything you do gives karma.
you’ve got all you need to play, just following story and hearts.
nothing to buy from black lion. nothing to craft because tou find it.
just jump in a map or another, and follow anything and anybody.
what is more, it’s interesting you unlock new skill and traits and learn to play that profession.

after you hit 80:
do the same zones over and over, chains of events, fractals, just for mats and gold…and in doing all this, your growth is nothing.
(also grinding dungeons for skins is repetitive, but at least, it ends soon. and a skin vs another doesn’t give you any advantage over other players.)
it’s only increasing numbers to get another gear that increases other numbers.
and i feel it’s mandatory as it would give me better stats.

again, and again:
it’s a waste of time trying to demostrate that grind is good and vertical progression is necessary for gw because people wouldnt’ play, that gw was not so good etcetcetcetc….
we don’t like it. we hate it. our gaming experience is made worse by it.

please, and please again:
stop. you like it?
explain why you like it or not. period
and not the reasons because of which do you think we have to like the game too.

imsoenthused.1634:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

You know, I don’t really care about Ascended Gear one way or the other. I hear lots of complaints about it being uber-expensive. I haven’t spent any money on Ascended Gear. I have a few items from laurels and such. My crafting is moving along steadily, it’s in the upper 400s. It may take me 6 months or a year to craft the Armor, should I decide to do so. Wasn’t that the idea? To introduce something that took some time to achieve? What’s the big rush? Maybe all those in a hurry are Fractal players, I just don’t know. But, if you don’t buy your materials, it’s not very expensive…at least, not for me. =)

The problem is that they put a stat increase on it. Honestly, if they’d left it with exotic stats with the addition of agony resistance then I’d be perfectly happy. I’d feel like I had reached a fully geared position, and I’d be relaxed and playing the game, enjoying myself. Instead I don’t feel fully geared, I’m not relaxed, and as a result I’m not enjoying myself nearly as much as I would be. I feel the constant compulsion to work towards ascended gear so I can be “done” and start really playing the game. This is a problem for me in most MMORPGs, and RPGs in general, but the one game that avoided it and as a result gained my loyalty and love for years was Guild Wars. I just wanted the same thing from its sequel and I’m incredibly disappointed that the developers decided to head in a different direction.

You have politely summed up my feelings, sir. +1.

stale.9785:

imsoenthused.1634:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

You know, I don’t really care about Ascended Gear one way or the other. I hear lots of complaints about it being uber-expensive. I haven’t spent any money on Ascended Gear. I have a few items from laurels and such. My crafting is moving along steadily, it’s in the upper 400s. It may take me 6 months or a year to craft the Armor, should I decide to do so. Wasn’t that the idea? To introduce something that took some time to achieve? What’s the big rush? Maybe all those in a hurry are Fractal players, I just don’t know. But, if you don’t buy your materials, it’s not very expensive…at least, not for me. =)

The problem is that they put a stat increase on it. Honestly, if they’d left it with exotic stats with the addition of agony resistance then I’d be perfectly happy. I’d feel like I had reached a fully geared position, and I’d be relaxed and playing the game, enjoying myself. Instead I don’t feel fully geared, I’m not relaxed, and as a result I’m not enjoying myself nearly as much as I would be. I feel the constant compulsion to work towards ascended gear so I can be “done” and start really playing the game. This is a problem for me in most MMORPGs, and RPGs in general, but the one game that avoided it and as a result gained my loyalty and love for years was Guild Wars. I just wanted the same thing from its sequel and I’m incredibly disappointed that the developers decided to head in a different direction.

You have politely summed up my feelings, sir. +1.

+ Over 9000

HiddenNick.7206:

Vayne.8563:

Thank you for posting this. I agree with this. I would prefer there was no vertical progression in the game. I don’t think that it makes this a better game.

Dude… As far as I know when you play the game you level up a character. And as soon as it’s a level 80 and the vertical progression is over you make another one. So there is not so much difference between you and people that want to progress their characters instead of creating a new one.

There are other ways to progress your characters without vertical progression. There are ways to progress via horizontal progression.

I didn’t say I’m against progression. I’m against gear grind in general.

People played Guild Wars 1 for years, without any stat progression on armor or weapons. What they got instead was new and better skills. And you could level up some skills, so they did more. That to me was far more fun than getting better gear.

I never wanted to be a coat rack for greatness. And if I wanted gear grind, I’d have become a watchmaker.

10000% agree. There’s way to much ‘you must to this boring content that you don’t want to do, or want to do later, but can’t skip because it’s a must have thing (laurel etc)’-content in the game.

Vayne.8563:

HiddenNick.7206:

Vayne.8563:

Thank you for posting this. I agree with this. I would prefer there was no vertical progression in the game. I don’t think that it makes this a better game.

Dude… As far as I know when you play the game you level up a character. And as soon as it’s a level 80 and the vertical progression is over you make another one. So there is not so much difference between you and people that want to progress their characters instead of creating a new one.

There are other ways to progress your characters without vertical progression. There are ways to progress via horizontal progression.

I didn’t say I’m against progression. I’m against gear grind in general.

People played Guild Wars 1 for years, without any stat progression on armor or weapons. What they got instead was new and better skills. And you could level up some skills, so they did more. That to me was far more fun than getting better gear.

I never wanted to be a coat rack for greatness. And if I wanted gear grind, I’d have become a watchmaker.

+1, and then some. Might be the biggest smile the forums have provided me, ever. /salute, sir.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Subdue.5479:

So what you’re saying is, people who enjoy working to towards a largely insignificant stat increase should not be able to do so because you are not willing to put forth that effort, even though if you opt NOT to work towards it, the game is pretty much exactly the same for you now as it has always been?

Just sounds like greed to me.

What sounds like greed to me is people buying a game that advertised, “Everyone should have max statistical gear by level 80.” and moaning about nothing to work for — when every other game out there not only offered but advertised stat increase progression.

I agree with you and I don’t agree with you.

You seem to liken this to every other game out there, but it’s not. That is to say, nothing prevents someone from doing all the content, whether there is BIS gear that requires grind in the game or not.

There’s a difference between what we have here and a gear treadmill. If Anet keeps releasing more tiers of gear, you’d be right to compare it to other games. But other games continuously introduce more tiers of gear.

Frankly, I don’t think we’ll see anything else but legendary which will have the same stats as ascended from this point on, because there are enough people that will play to grind achievement points, so Anet has found the other solution they needed.

However, no one can say for sure, until we see what the future holds.

I made no comparison between GW2 and other games. I did not mention treadmills, or further gear tiers. I did say that virtually every other MMO offers stat inflation/progression. I did say that GW2 (pre-launch) advertised easy to obtain BiS.

I agree with most of what you’ve said… I just don’t see what it has to do with what I said. All I was doing was questioning the moral rectitude of those who bought GW2 despite that advertising and complained until harder-to-obtain stat inflation was added, and then get on their high horse when others complain.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Subdue.5479:

So what you’re saying is, people who enjoy working to towards a largely insignificant stat increase should not be able to do so because you are not willing to put forth that effort, even though if you opt NOT to work towards it, the game is pretty much exactly the same for you now as it has always been?

Just sounds like greed to me.

What sounds like greed to me is people buying a game that advertised, “Everyone should have max statistical gear by level 80.” and moaning about nothing to work for — when every other game out there not only offered but advertised stat increase progression.

I agree with you and I don’t agree with you.

You seem to liken this to every other game out there, but it’s not. That is to say, nothing prevents someone from doing all the content, whether there is BIS gear that requires grind in the game or not.

There’s a difference between what we have here and a gear treadmill. If Anet keeps releasing more tiers of gear, you’d be right to compare it to other games. But other games continuously introduce more tiers of gear.

Frankly, I don’t think we’ll see anything else but legendary which will have the same stats as ascended from this point on, because there are enough people that will play to grind achievement points, so Anet has found the other solution they needed.

However, no one can say for sure, until we see what the future holds.

I made no comparison between GW2 and other games. I did not mention treadmills, or further gear tiers. I did say that virtually every other MMO offers stat inflation/progression. I did say that GW2 (pre-launch) advertised easy to obtain BiS.

I agree with most of what you’ve said… I just don’t see what it has to do with what I said. All I was doing was questioning the moral rectitude of those who bought GW2 despite that advertising and complained until harder-to-obtain stat inflation was added, and then get on their high horse when others complain.

Please link me to where GW2 is “advertised” as easy to obtain BiS. The closest I’ve been able to find is the manifesto where it actually says “You don’t have to wait to start having fun,” which is true with exotic, and even rare gear.

Subdue.5479:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Subdue.5479:

So what you’re saying is, people who enjoy working to towards a largely insignificant stat increase should not be able to do so because you are not willing to put forth that effort, even though if you opt NOT to work towards it, the game is pretty much exactly the same for you now as it has always been?

Just sounds like greed to me.

What sounds like greed to me is people buying a game that advertised, “Everyone should have max statistical gear by level 80.” and moaning about nothing to work for — when every other game out there not only offered but advertised stat increase progression.

I agree with you and I don’t agree with you.

You seem to liken this to every other game out there, but it’s not. That is to say, nothing prevents someone from doing all the content, whether there is BIS gear that requires grind in the game or not.

There’s a difference between what we have here and a gear treadmill. If Anet keeps releasing more tiers of gear, you’d be right to compare it to other games. But other games continuously introduce more tiers of gear.

Frankly, I don’t think we’ll see anything else but legendary which will have the same stats as ascended from this point on, because there are enough people that will play to grind achievement points, so Anet has found the other solution they needed.

However, no one can say for sure, until we see what the future holds.

I made no comparison between GW2 and other games. I did not mention treadmills, or further gear tiers. I did say that virtually every other MMO offers stat inflation/progression. I did say that GW2 (pre-launch) advertised easy to obtain BiS.

I agree with most of what you’ve said… I just don’t see what it has to do with what I said. All I was doing was questioning the moral rectitude of those who bought GW2 despite that advertising and complained until harder-to-obtain stat inflation was added, and then get on their high horse when others complain.

Please link me to where GW2 is “advertised” as easy to obtain BiS. The closest I’ve been able to find is the manifesto where it actually says “You don’t have to wait to start having fun,” which is true with exotic, and even rare gear.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview

“Eurogamer: How are you handling endgame loot – will we be farming bosses?

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids."

Vertical progression almost accidentally became the paradigm mostly due to Everquest’s success, but it’s long past its prime; there are much better ways to design an MMO.

Guild Wars 2 endgame development should be focused on expanding ways to diversify characters through acquisition of new skills and cosmetics, introducing new gameplay modes (henchmen/allies and replayable story missions, along with expanding the home base and possible housing), and expanding on the explorable world of Tyria.

please. don’t even quote this kitten manifesto.
every time someone talks of it, there s someone starting to teach why anet is right why we bought the wrong game etc.

plz tell: i bought it “because i thought there was no grind to get the best equip” :O
it’s really a pain in the kitten .
again, if @subdue or someone else demostrates it wasn’t in the manifesto, still we’ll continue to complain about it because we don’t like it.
ok? T.T

Subdue.5479:

Please link me to where GW2 is “advertised” as easy to obtain BiS. The closest I’ve been able to find is the manifesto where it actually says “You don’t have to wait to start having fun,” which is true with exotic, and even rare gear.

Sure.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success/

revelant quote

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

Key phrase: so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

TooBz.3065:

Subdue.5479:

Please link me to where GW2 is “advertised” as easy to obtain BiS. The closest I’ve been able to find is the manifesto where it actually says “You don’t have to wait to start having fun,” which is true with exotic, and even rare gear.

Sure.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success/

revelant quote

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

Please link me to where GW2 explained to player (prior to launch) that the game would add a tier of time gated BiS gear that would have better stats.

It’s an MMO dude, that’s the expectation.

Also, I never claimed that GW2 advertised on that. The person I quoted said they advertised on his point, so it’s fair to ask where.

TooBz.3065:

Subdue.5479:

Please link me to where GW2 is “advertised” as easy to obtain BiS. The closest I’ve been able to find is the manifesto where it actually says “You don’t have to wait to start having fun,” which is true with exotic, and even rare gear.

Sure.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success/

revelant quote

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

Key phrase: so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

And if you consider legendaries as “the rarest items in the game”, which they are, is this not still accurate? And notice the use of the word “mandatory.” Ascended gear is not in any way “mandatory.” Honestly, I feel like you either don’t understand what a gear treadmill is, or you’re intentionally misusing the phrase to garner support.