Guild Wars 2

Subdue.5479:

TooBz.3065:

Subdue.5479:

Please link me to where GW2 is “advertised” as easy to obtain BiS. The closest I’ve been able to find is the manifesto where it actually says “You don’t have to wait to start having fun,” which is true with exotic, and even rare gear.

Sure.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success/

revelant quote

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

Please link me to where GW2 explained to player (prior to launch) that the game would add a tier of time gated BiS gear that would have better stats.

It’s an MMO dude, that’s the expectation.

Also, I never claimed that GW2 advertised on that. The person I quoted said they advertised on his point, so it’s fair to ask where.

Sorry, I edited my post because it was kitteny. This is a well worn frustrating topic and I wish we’d quit having it. Anyway, you caught me before I finished editing.

GW2 did advertise or at least strongly imply that they would be different from MMOs.

Subdue – that particular quote outright says you are wrong. The best statistical gear, for everyone, without working for it. The fact that you continue to pick individual words from it and quibble about them says far more about you than the people you argue with. At one point, in another thread, you stated point blank that exotic was still “best in slot” when that is categorically untrue.

We get it – you like vertical progression. This game, however, was marketed on the promise of having NO vertical progression. Deal with it.

Subdue.5479:

TooBz.3065:

Subdue.5479:

Please link me to where GW2 is “advertised” as easy to obtain BiS. The closest I’ve been able to find is the manifesto where it actually says “You don’t have to wait to start having fun,” which is true with exotic, and even rare gear.

Sure.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success/

revelant quote

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

Key phrase: so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

And if you consider legendaries as “the rarest items in the game”, which they are, is this not still accurate? And notice the use of the word “mandatory.” Ascended gear is not in any way “mandatory.” Honestly, I feel like you either don’t understand what a gear treadmill is, or you’re intentionally misusing the phrase to garner support.

he’s the king of troll!

well, um…interpreting or misinterpreting the words of this manifesto that clearly has the same importance as a squished kitten on the highway in summer….
again, we’re ot.
there’s a thread about manifesto.

@subdue: like or hate vertical progression? and BiS grind? why?
that’s the topic.

Subdue.5479:

TooBz.3065:

Subdue.5479:

Please link me to where GW2 is “advertised” as easy to obtain BiS. The closest I’ve been able to find is the manifesto where it actually says “You don’t have to wait to start having fun,” which is true with exotic, and even rare gear.

Sure.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success/

revelant quote

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

Key phrase: so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

And if you consider legendaries as “the rarest items in the game”, which they are, is this not still accurate? And notice the use of the word “mandatory.” Ascended gear is not in any way “mandatory.” Honestly, I feel like you either don’t understand what a gear treadmill is, or you’re intentionally misusing the phrase to garner support.

But if you don’t get it, then you’re not “just as powerful”. Meh.

In case it wasn’t obvious, I hate vertical progression. There’s no need for it, other than to satisfy people who cannot have fun without another tier of “achievement” to gain.

IMO gw1 had a far superior approach, wherein all progress was through either cosmetics (skins) or through gaining skills (skill hunting) and learning builds and interaction.

Skill should always trump gear.

Subdue.5479:

TooBz.3065:

Subdue.5479:

Please link me to where GW2 is “advertised” as easy to obtain BiS. The closest I’ve been able to find is the manifesto where it actually says “You don’t have to wait to start having fun,” which is true with exotic, and even rare gear.

Sure.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success/

revelant quote

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

Please link me to where GW2 explained to player (prior to launch) that the game would add a tier of time gated BiS gear that would have better stats.

It’s an MMO dude, that’s the expectation.

Also, I never claimed that GW2 advertised on that. The person I quoted said they advertised on his point, so it’s fair to ask where.

No it isn’t. It’s only the expectation for people who aren’t aware of superior MMO designs than raids and gear progression.

stale.9785:

Subdue – that particular quote outright says you are wrong. The best statistical gear, for everyone, without working for it. The fact that you continue to pick individual words from it and quibble about them says far more about you than the people you argue with. At one point, in another thread, you stated point blank that exotic was still “best in slot” when that is categorically untrue.

We get it – you like vertical progression. This game, however, was marketed on the promise of having NO vertical progression. Deal with it.

If this game were marketed with no vertical progression, there would be no character levels. There would be no tiers of item (basic, fine, masterwork, rare, exotic). Vertical progression is at the very core of this game, and every other MMO, GW1 included.

If anything, YOU are the one that’s picking and choosing parts of the statement rather than reading the whole thing. Is ascended gear mandatory for anything? No. It’s optional, JUST LIKE THEY SAID IT WOULD BE.

Also, in the thread you’re talking about, I stated that your definition of “best in slot” is too limited and irrelevant to GW2. Best in slot in other MMOs entails access to content that is otherwise inaccessible or impossible to accomplish. That’s not the case in GW2, where exotic gear, and really even rare gear, is enough for pretty much all content. If you’re going to quote me, then quote me completely. Just like if you’re going to reference a quote from A.Net, don’t just read what you want to read and ignore the rest.

Subdue.5479:

stale.9785:

Subdue – that particular quote outright says you are wrong. The best statistical gear, for everyone, without working for it. The fact that you continue to pick individual words from it and quibble about them says far more about you than the people you argue with. At one point, in another thread, you stated point blank that exotic was still “best in slot” when that is categorically untrue.

We get it – you like vertical progression. This game, however, was marketed on the promise of having NO vertical progression. Deal with it.

If this game were marketed with no vertical progression, there would be no character levels. There would be no tiers of item (basic, fine, masterwork, rare, exotic). Vertical progression is at the very core of this game, and every other MMO, GW1 included.

If anything, YOU are the one that’s picking and choosing parts of the statement rather than reading the whole thing. Is ascended gear mandatory for anything? No. It’s optional, JUST LIKE THEY SAID IT WOULD BE.

Also, in the thread you’re talking about, I stated that your definition of “best in slot” is too limited and irrelevant to GW2. Best in slot in other MMOs entails access to content that is otherwise inaccessible or impossible to accomplish. That’s not the case in GW2, where exotic gear, and really even rare gear, is enough for pretty much all content. If you’re going to quote me, then quote me completely. Just like if you’re going to reference a quote from A.Net, don’t just read what you want to read and ignore the rest.

In GW2 as originally intended, the path from 1 to 80 is no more than an extended tutorial. And having 5 tiers of armor is meaningless when the BiS armor is easily obtainable. But if it makes you happy, okay, then try this: originally, GW2 was a vertical progression game for your leveling experience, and then for a small amount of time before you get the easily obtainable max stat gear. This entire process takes about 2 to 6 weeks depending on how much you push. And after that, the game that was marketed kicks in, and that toon is in a horizontal-progression game – forevermore. Basically the game was suppose to contain a limited vertical progression through leveling, followed by an easily obtainable BiS gear plateau that would never be extended further. That in essense was the GW2 that was marketed for years on end, and the one that the majority of early buyers wanted.

But you already knew that.

;-)

Ision.3207:

Subdue.5479:

stale.9785:

Subdue – that particular quote outright says you are wrong. The best statistical gear, for everyone, without working for it. The fact that you continue to pick individual words from it and quibble about them says far more about you than the people you argue with. At one point, in another thread, you stated point blank that exotic was still “best in slot” when that is categorically untrue.

We get it – you like vertical progression. This game, however, was marketed on the promise of having NO vertical progression. Deal with it.

If this game were marketed with no vertical progression, there would be no character levels. There would be no tiers of item (basic, fine, masterwork, rare, exotic). Vertical progression is at the very core of this game, and every other MMO, GW1 included.

If anything, YOU are the one that’s picking and choosing parts of the statement rather than reading the whole thing. Is ascended gear mandatory for anything? No. It’s optional, JUST LIKE THEY SAID IT WOULD BE.

Also, in the thread you’re talking about, I stated that your definition of “best in slot” is too limited and irrelevant to GW2. Best in slot in other MMOs entails access to content that is otherwise inaccessible or impossible to accomplish. That’s not the case in GW2, where exotic gear, and really even rare gear, is enough for pretty much all content. If you’re going to quote me, then quote me completely. Just like if you’re going to reference a quote from A.Net, don’t just read what you want to read and ignore the rest.

In this game, the path from 1 to 80 is no more than an extended tutorial. And having 5 tiers of armor is meaningless when the BiS armor is easily obtainable. But if it makes you happy, okay, then try this: originally, GW2 was a vertical progression game for your leveling experience, and then for a small amount of time before you get the easily obtainable max stat gear. This entire process takes about 2 to 6 weeks depending on how much you push. And after that, the game that was marketed kicks in, and that toon is in a horizontal-progression game – forevermore. That is essense was the GW2 that was marketed as for years on end, and the one that the majority of early buyers wanted.

But you already knew that.

;-)

Let’s say you’re correct and that’s what early buyers wanted. Now, it’s not, as can be seen by the larger turn out of players, by new found organization amongst players to secure objectives. Let’s not forget that a quick google search will show that a lot of people were complaining that there was nothing left to achieve once they hit 80. Is it really a wrong turn for the game given that more people like it than not? More people are active within the game now, than before?

And furthermore, given that players who choose not to go after this new tier of equipment are in no way forced to play the game any differently from how they were playing it before, would you not agree that it’s a solution that addresses the concerns of the masses without ignoring the minority that doesn’t want any sort of grind?

Subdue.5479:

It’s an MMO dude, that’s the expectation.

It’s not the expectation of anyone who played the first game in the series. Just because it’s expected of MMOs doesn’t mean it’s not awful and that they couldn’t have made a new, better MMO without it. In fact, they even said that’s what they were doing.

Subdue.5479:

Let’s say you’re correct and that’s what early buyers wanted. Now, it’s not, as can be seen by the larger turn out of players, by new found organization amongst players to secure objectives. Let’s not forget that a quick google search will show that a lot of people were complaining that there was nothing left to achieve once they hit 80. Is it really a wrong turn for the game given that more people like it than not? More people are active within the game now, than before?

Do you have a link to show that more people play now than at launch? Do you have metrics to show that people who were complaining about “nothing to achieve” would not have been satisfied with more robust horizontal progression — of which there was very little at launch — and very little today.

I remember a lot of “nothing to do” posts, not a lot of “no stat increase to grind for” posts.

I say Anet should have stuck to their original vision instead of trying to keep the locusts fed. Those people will never be satisfied and will end up leaving either way. As for the Asceneded gear grind, I think it was a huge mistake.

Subdue.5479:

If this game were marketed with no vertical progression, there would be no character levels. There would be no tiers of item (basic, fine, masterwork, rare, exotic).

That’s originally how GW2 was designed. No levels, no rarity in gear.

That’s how it should have remained.

Vertical progression should be banned out of the world of MMOs forever.

Subdue.5479:

Vertical progression is at the very core of this game, and every other MMO, GW1 included.

In GW1 you could get to max level and best-in-slot gear in 3 hours, levels are just there to not overwhelm the new player with options, its a tutorial. I have thousands of hours in GW1, so 99.9999999999% of my playtime was at max level with best in slot gear. With GW2, no such luck.

There are and there will be many MMOs that have no vertical progression whatsoever. Puzzle Pirates. Second Life. Wurm Online. The Chronicles of Spellborn. For a more modern approach, take a look at Everquest Next. No levels, no progression. Just total freedom. EQNext is going to kill the outdated WoW MMO model, and ITS ABOUT TIME!

Subdue.5479:

Is ascended gear mandatory for anything? No. It’s optional, JUST LIKE THEY SAID IT WOULD BE

FALSE!

Fractals quickly become unplayable without Ascended items with Agony resist, and it significantly unbalances WvW.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Subdue.5479:

Let’s say you’re correct and that’s what early buyers wanted. Now, it’s not, as can be seen by the larger turn out of players, by new found organization amongst players to secure objectives. Let’s not forget that a quick google search will show that a lot of people were complaining that there was nothing left to achieve once they hit 80. Is it really a wrong turn for the game given that more people like it than not? More people are active within the game now, than before?

Do you have a link to show that more people play now than at launch? Do you have metrics to show that people who were complaining about “nothing to achieve” would not have been satisfied with more robust horizontal progression — of which there was very little at launch — and very little today.

I remember a lot of “nothing to do” posts, not a lot of “no stat increase to grind for” posts.

Indigo, good post.

I’ve quite often read people post here that the reason Anet ran with Ascended gear was because of the loud outcry of people wanting it, and because of the loss of players. This is a perfectly legitimate argument, and perhaps it is in fact the case.

Personally, I’ve always felt it was for the exact opposite reason. I’ve always suspected that what actually happened was that the game exceeded even their expectations with initial sales; and having got that core group firmly within their hands, they decided to go after the WoW teenagers as well. In other words, they got greedy.

So they dragged out the “always intended” ascended gear, except I suspect they added a stat progression to that “always intended” gear that was not there originally. Of course a backlash was expected, but I believe they felt it would blow over relatively quickly. Unfortunately for Anet, they soon realized that they miscalculated in this regard. And in my mind, many of the changes and statements made since their miscalculation have been a soft back-peddling on the mistake they made.

Of course this is all just pure speculation on my part, and nothing more than that. Truth is, we will never really know for sure, as Anet, and Anet alone has the metrics for the game for those mere 2 months after release. As for those that enjoy speaking with the voice of authority, as if they are “in the know” as to what Anets intent and reasoning were, they are just full of bull-kitten.

There is however one metric that we all should immediately dismiss out of hand, and that’s forum whining/QQ … whether for, or against a change, it’s usually indicative of very little. And forum whining is usually the province of the vocal minority; which back in November of 2012, would have been the WoW teens clamoring for gear stat progression.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I remember a lot of “nothing to do” posts, not a lot of “no stat increase to grind for” posts.

yeah…
looking at older threads, i found ppl complaining about grindy /ugly skins, or lack of contents after 80, or asking for a dungeon finder.
asking for new weapons, skills…classes.
or too many bugs…

but an increase in stats…not a lot.
it s anet that decided that a handful or numbers (and long months to acquire them ) was the easy way to keep people busy and logged in, forced by timed events and daily chests. like any other mmo.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Subdue.5479:

Let’s say you’re correct and that’s what early buyers wanted. Now, it’s not, as can be seen by the larger turn out of players, by new found organization amongst players to secure objectives. Let’s not forget that a quick google search will show that a lot of people were complaining that there was nothing left to achieve once they hit 80. Is it really a wrong turn for the game given that more people like it than not? More people are active within the game now, than before?

Do you have a link to show that more people play now than at launch? Do you have metrics to show that people who were complaining about “nothing to achieve” would not have been satisfied with more robust horizontal progression — of which there was very little at launch — and very little today.

I remember a lot of “nothing to do” posts, not a lot of “no stat increase to grind for” posts.

I wasn’t playing this game at launch, so I can’t really comment as to how populated this game was at launch. I can say that however that Lion’s Arch has been more active and populated on Yak’s Bend in the last few weeks than it was 3-4 months ago.

That’s a personal observation though, and I don’t really expect you to put much stock in that. Instead, let’s look at the facts. A.Net is a for-profit company, seeking to maximize their gains. Do you think they would implement ascended weapons after ascended accessories and amulets if the statistics showed that introduction of ascended accessories turned more people away from the game than brought people in or kept people playing? Do you think they would implement ascended armors after ascended armors if they saw that ascended weapons turned more people away than brought them in?

Be logical. A.Net isn’t making decisions in a vacuum here. They’re trying to give as many players as possible what they want. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Ascended items were a great compromise. They do not gate players out of any content but they do give players that are more accustomed to some stat progression something to look forward to.

Kevan.8912:

as i didn t find a thread talking specifically about it except for old ones and struggles about manifesto, and i think it s “legal” to express my opinion pacifically…

i think that vertical progression hurts my gaming experience.
i feel forced doing dailies, world events, etc…because it s necessary to craft ascended, to avoid any “handicap” when playing with other better geared ppl.
don t care if it s relevant or not that stats difference in wvw o pve. just hate that.

i loved to grind for a title. for skins. i felt really motivated and found it a free choice.
vertical progression binds me to a sense of inferiority, grind like a necessary work to be done for a mandatory aim.
my two cents.

Don’t feel bad, I will never have Ascended Weapons or Armor due to limited play time. However, over the last year I have finally gotten all ascended trinkets on ONE Character (except backpiece, it’s still Rare and not available via WvW)

Shakkara.2641:

Subdue.5479:

If this game were marketed with no vertical progression, there would be no character levels. There would be no tiers of item (basic, fine, masterwork, rare, exotic).

That’s originally how GW2 was designed. No levels, no rarity in gear.

That’s how it should have remained.

Vertical progression should be banned out of the world of MMOs forever.

Strong words there at the end. Vertical progression has its place, and it kept from running rampant into a treadmill effect expansion after expansion, I don’t see where there’d be a problem with it. GW1 had a share of vertical progression in it, for all there was horizontal progression going on.

In GW1 you could get to max level and best-in-slot gear in 3 hours,

Max level in 3 hours? Not in Prophecies. Factions, definitely. Nightfall? Highly questionable. The gear, if you started in Nightfall you could get it in 3 minutes after finishing the required first mission and getting the materials/cash.

There are and there will be many MMOs that have no vertical progression whatsoever. Puzzle Pirates. Second Life. Wurm Online. The Chronicles of Spellborn.

Puzzle Pirates is aggressively “give us subscription please”. I liked it but the aggressive requirement to spend money or we’ll take your stuff by time-based decay? No thanks.

Second Life isn’t so much an MMO as a graphical chat room.

I don’t know anything about the other two so I can’t/won’t comment.

But there’s also Magic Online for “no vertical progression”. I highly recommend it if you know anything about the card game.

Time will tell how Shroud of the Avatar shapes up, too.

Let’s see, “Spiral Knights”, “Realm of the Mad God”, “DayZ” all have some buzz about them, so does “Starbound” as far as online play goes. Not too much vertical to them, and a whole lot more focus on their own choice of “fun”.

And the best example of things with no vertical progression – Minecraft. Absolutely no levels to climb, no gear treadmill, but oh gods the grind.

Also, for all the ones that don’t have vertical progression? There will be those which do. Primarily those which are derived from D&D, Final Fantasy, or similar Intellectual Properties. Which will always be popular.

Shakkara.2641:

In GW1 you could get to max level and best-in-slot gear in 3 hours, levels are just there to not overwhelm the new player with options, its a tutorial. I have thousands of hours in GW1, so 99.9999999999% of my playtime was at max level with best in slot gear. With GW2, no such luck.

There are and there will be many MMOs that have no vertical progression whatsoever. Puzzle Pirates. Second Life. Wurm Online. The Chronicles of Spellborn. For a more modern approach, take a look at Everquest Next. No levels, no progression. Just total freedom. EQNext is going to kill the outdated WoW MMO model, and ITS ABOUT TIME!

Yea the “WoW killer…” We’ve heard that before. How long have people MMOs been trying to beat out WoW? It’s easy to criticize WoW’s model, and who knows, you may be right that it’s less fun, but there is a certain amount of satisfaction achievement from completing something difficult that people can’t get from something that’s just basically handed to them. And let’s be real here. I like dressing up my character, customizing gear, etc. But that’s not for everyone. Ascended items give them something to strive for, without really taking anything of substance away from the people who just want to play dress up.

FALSE!

Fractals quickly become unplayable without Ascended items with Agony resist, and it significantly unbalances WvW.

Uh no. You can do Fractals 1-19 with 0 AR, 20-29 with 15 AR, 30-39 with 30 AR, and 40-49 with 45 AR. Translated into acquisition costs, you get 20 AR from your rings, which not only drop from Fractals 10 and higher, but are also purchasable via pristine fractal relics, which you get more than enough of before you even need them. You get another 5 from your backpiece for 1850 fractal relics, again, attainable long before you need them. That’s already 25 right there. Then you get 5 more from amulet, which is purchased only with laurels, which you get for 5 minutes of effort each day. That gives you enough AR for fractals 1-39 just from doing the fractals themselves and nothing else. If you want to shoot for the 40+ category, then it’s ~ 12g + Laurels or 5g + guild merits for each accessory, and 75g – by far most expensive in the whole set, to ascend your backpiece. That’s 45 AR, enough to play even the highest levels of fractals before you even touch ascended armors and weapons.

And let’s not forget, the actual cost of making an ascended armor/weapon is directly tied to how much people WANT ascended armors/weapons. A few months down the line, when the people who want the ascended items have them and the demand has simmered down, the cost of making these items will likewise decrease, and they too will be easy to acquire.

Subdue.5479:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Subdue.5479:

Let’s say you’re correct and that’s what early buyers wanted. Now, it’s not, as can be seen by the larger turn out of players, by new found organization amongst players to secure objectives. Let’s not forget that a quick google search will show that a lot of people were complaining that there was nothing left to achieve once they hit 80. Is it really a wrong turn for the game given that more people like it than not? More people are active within the game now, than before?

Do you have a link to show that more people play now than at launch? Do you have metrics to show that people who were complaining about “nothing to achieve” would not have been satisfied with more robust horizontal progression — of which there was very little at launch — and very little today.

I remember a lot of “nothing to do” posts, not a lot of “no stat increase to grind for” posts.

I wasn’t playing this game at launch, so I can’t really comment as to how populated this game was at launch. I can say that however that Lion’s Arch has been more active and populated on Yak’s Bend in the last few weeks than it was 3-4 months ago.

That’s a personal observation though, and I don’t really expect you to put much stock in that. Instead, let’s look at the facts. A.Net is a for-profit company, seeking to maximize their gains. Do you think they would implement ascended weapons after ascended accessories and amulets if the statistics showed that introduction of ascended accessories turned more people away from the game than brought people in or kept people playing? Do you think they would implement ascended armors after ascended armors if they saw that ascended weapons turned more people away than brought them in?

Be logical. A.Net isn’t making decisions in a vacuum here. They’re trying to give as many players as possible what they want. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Ascended items were a great compromise. They do not gate players out of any content but they do give players that are more accustomed to some stat progression something to look forward to.

Be logical… OK.

I have no trouble believing that more people currently playing either like the Ascended pursuit or don’t care one way or the other about it than there are players that hate it. However, that’s because some of the players who don’t like the change in direction have left the game with each Ascended implementation.

The population that’s opposed gets smaller with each additional type of Ascended added. Failure to push the remainder of the tier out would have angered the population who wanted the tier. Having driven off players on one side of the discussion, driving off the other side would not be a good business decision.

I do believe that economics played an important role in the Ascended decision. We’ll never know what might have happened if ANet had opted to provide the promised horizontal/cosmetic progression rather than shallow vertical progression. They had the opportunity to push the alternative MMO progression they advertised. However, it doesn’t take an economist to realize that adding Ascended Rings and a back-piece took a lot less resources than developing the robust options for skill-based and/or cosmetic progression that would have been needed for HP.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I do believe that economics played an important role in the Ascended decision. We’ll never know what might have happened if ANet had opted to provide the promised horizontal/cosmetic progression rather than shallow vertical progression. They had the opportunity to push the alternative MMO progression they advertised. However, it doesn’t take an economist to realize that adding Ascended Rings and a back-piece took a lot less resources than developing the robust options for skill-based and/or cosmetic progression that would have been needed for HP.

It also doesn’t take a programmer to realize the difficulty of retooling some things which are desperately called for (ranger pets, “DPS is king”, “Traherne killed my story”) are expensive in employee hours and requirement for creating new assets in some cases to handle it without botching.

Right now, Arenanet has their focus on finishing out their Living World “Season 1” with Scarlet. They have their CDI notes, but we know nothing significant and quick is going to come out of them.

Even if they hit the brakes right now on everything else and started working on something purely horizontal progression, we would probably be . . . I’ll say three months from seeing it hit live release.

During which, there’s the risk of people departing because there’s no longer anything to do except wait.

if they really wanted to make ppl like me come back in these months before a virtual horizontal progress., they still can find an easier and more “democratic” way for getting ascended, via other methods than forced crafting.
a quick fix to repair the painful mats gathering that gw1 fans hate.
or add a new tier exotics so to be equal to ascended. maybe without ar slots so that grind necessity is limited to fractals and doesn t touch wvw.

(and then totally stop with tiers and infusions. or they would leave again)

Kevan.8912:

if they really wanted to make ppl like me come back in these months before a virtual horizontal progress., they still can find an easier and more “democratic” way for getting ascended, via other methods than forced crafting.
a quick fix to repair the painful mats gathering that gw1 fans hate.
(and then totally stop with tiers and infusions. or they would leave again)

Well . . . let’s recap:

Ascended rings, trinkets, necklaces are available through Laurels. (a.k.a. “playing the game daily”). Ascended trinkets otherwise can be attained through Guild Missions (if you can do that sort of thing), and other things through WvW (for Badges) in exchange for less Laurels required. In short, there’s a good breadth here.

Ascended back pieces are only currently through Mystic Forge, if you get the mists essence out of Fractals and then gather a metric “skrittload” of shiny Fine tier 6 materials. This is, perhaps, much less forgivable than the crafting method . . . you don’t need 250 Vicious Claws for crafting.

Ascended weapons are available as a “slightly less than the chance of precursor” drop from some places. You can also craft them. I’m unsure of which places have Ascended weapon chests in them; I know Tequatl and WvW bonus chests are a chance. If it could be dungeon reward, any world boss, any world chest (JPs or random chests in the world) it might be worthwhile.

Ascended armor is only available through crafting. We can pretty much agree it is incredibly time consuming to do and may be more expensive than your average player is willing to put in for the power increase.

All of this was released staggered out where the most time-consuming pieces came at the end instead of the front. (Debatably.) All of the equipment slots give a stat boost but only armor and weapons allow for basic upgrades in addition to Infusion slots.

Fixing the availability seems weighted more to two slot types: armor and back pieces.

Fixing the system so VP is kept to a minimal level relies on limiting how much power growth is done in the future. (If not refusing to grow it at all.)

. . . can we all agree on these points?

Kevan.8912:

vertical progression binds me to a sense of inferiority, grind like a necessary work to be done for a mandatory aim.

tell this to “dedicated players”

IndigoSundown.5419:

Subdue.5479:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Subdue.5479:

Let’s say you’re correct and that’s what early buyers wanted. Now, it’s not, as can be seen by the larger turn out of players, by new found organization amongst players to secure objectives. Let’s not forget that a quick google search will show that a lot of people were complaining that there was nothing left to achieve once they hit 80. Is it really a wrong turn for the game given that more people like it than not? More people are active within the game now, than before?

Do you have a link to show that more people play now than at launch? Do you have metrics to show that people who were complaining about “nothing to achieve” would not have been satisfied with more robust horizontal progression — of which there was very little at launch — and very little today.

I remember a lot of “nothing to do” posts, not a lot of “no stat increase to grind for” posts.

I wasn’t playing this game at launch, so I can’t really comment as to how populated this game was at launch. I can say that however that Lion’s Arch has been more active and populated on Yak’s Bend in the last few weeks than it was 3-4 months ago.

That’s a personal observation though, and I don’t really expect you to put much stock in that. Instead, let’s look at the facts. A.Net is a for-profit company, seeking to maximize their gains. Do you think they would implement ascended weapons after ascended accessories and amulets if the statistics showed that introduction of ascended accessories turned more people away from the game than brought people in or kept people playing? Do you think they would implement ascended armors after ascended armors if they saw that ascended weapons turned more people away than brought them in?

Be logical. A.Net isn’t making decisions in a vacuum here. They’re trying to give as many players as possible what they want. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Ascended items were a great compromise. They do not gate players out of any content but they do give players that are more accustomed to some stat progression something to look forward to.

Be logical… OK.

I have no trouble believing that more people currently playing either like the Ascended pursuit or don’t care one way or the other about it than there are players that hate it. However, that’s because some of the players who don’t like the change in direction have left the game with each Ascended implementation.

The population that’s opposed gets smaller with each additional type of Ascended added. Failure to push the remainder of the tier out would have angered the population who wanted the tier. Having driven off players on one side of the discussion, driving off the other side would not be a good business decision.

I do believe that economics played an important role in the Ascended decision. We’ll never know what might have happened if ANet had opted to provide the promised horizontal/cosmetic progression rather than shallow vertical progression. They had the opportunity to push the alternative MMO progression they advertised. However, it doesn’t take an economist to realize that adding Ascended Rings and a back-piece took a lot less resources than developing the robust options for skill-based and/or cosmetic progression that would have been needed for HP.

Do you believe that that more people who hate ascended gear quit than people who stayed for it or even returned for it, keeping in mind that it was released in stages, after each Arena.Net was able to kitten the net effect of the changes on the population?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fixing the availability seems weighted more to two slot types: armor and back pieces.

Fixing the system so VP is kept to a minimal level relies on limiting how much power growth is done in the future. (If not refusing to grow it at all.)

. . . can we all agree on these points?

i think that the “time” and “effort” factors could be a problem also for weapons, which are unlikely drops and, in the facts, require crafting too.
(in my opinion. everything should be available without crafting. as it’s not a work, everybody should be able to obtain what he needs, doing only what he likes more.
it’s a game. real world is tough enough.)

for trinkets and necks, i find it grindy but still “tolerable”.

Vertical Progression: for me, zero tolerance it’s more than enough what we’ve already seen. a big not to everything else which improves stats.
i think that if anets manages to show a real, mature, enjoyable horizontal progression, it could change the whole, grind-ill, life-wasting, mmo world.
and that’s why i bought it.

Kevan.8912:

please. don’t even quote this kitten manifesto.
every time someone talks of it, there s someone starting to teach why anet is right why we bought the wrong game etc.

plz tell: i bought it “because i thought there was no grind to get the best equip” :O
it’s really a pain in the kitten .
again, if @subdue or someone else demostrates it wasn’t in the manifesto, still we’ll continue to complain about it because we don’t like it.
ok? T.T

I never said Anet was right and you were wrong. I said that people misintepret the manifesto, which is about as obvious as you can get. People take other things said in other places and superimpose it over what was said in the manifesto, because it contains the word grind. It’s an obvious misinterpretation, but people keep doing it. It’s a misuse of language, which was my business for a very long time.

Kevan.8912:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fixing the availability seems weighted more to two slot types: armor and back pieces.

Fixing the system so VP is kept to a minimal level relies on limiting how much power growth is done in the future. (If not refusing to grow it at all.)

. . . can we all agree on these points?

i think that the “time” and “effort” factors could be a problem also for weapons, which are unlikely drops and, in the facts, require crafting too.
(in my opinion. everything should be available without crafting. as it’s not a work, everybody should be able to obtain what he needs, doing only what he likes more.
it’s a game. real world is tough enough.)

for trinkets and necks, i find it grindy but still “tolerable”.

Vertical Progression: for me, zero tolerance it’s more than enough what we’ve already seen. a big not to everything else which improves stats.
i think that if anets manages to show a real, mature, enjoyable horizontal progression, it could change the whole, grind-ill, life-wasting, mmo world.
and that’s why i bought it.

Actually you’re completely wrong. You can’t say you have zero tolerance for vertical progression. Want to know why?

Because before Anet introduced ascended gear at all….vertical progression was already in this game.

Exotics, rares, and masterwork items all have the same levels, but they’re different tiers of the same gear. That is vertical progression.

You don’t have zero tolerance for vertical progression, or you’d be complaining about exotics.

You have an arbitrary line that Anet crossed and you’re calling it vertical progression. Why are you not complaining about exotic gear?

Vayne.8563:

Kevan.8912:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fixing the availability seems weighted more to two slot types: armor and back pieces.

Fixing the system so VP is kept to a minimal level relies on limiting how much power growth is done in the future. (If not refusing to grow it at all.)

. . . can we all agree on these points?

i think that the “time” and “effort” factors could be a problem also for weapons, which are unlikely drops and, in the facts, require crafting too.
(in my opinion. everything should be available without crafting. as it’s not a work, everybody should be able to obtain what he needs, doing only what he likes more.
it’s a game. real world is tough enough.)

for trinkets and necks, i find it grindy but still “tolerable”.

Vertical Progression: for me, zero tolerance it’s more than enough what we’ve already seen. a big not to everything else which improves stats.
i think that if anets manages to show a real, mature, enjoyable horizontal progression, it could change the whole, grind-ill, life-wasting, mmo world.
and that’s why i bought it.

Actually you’re completely wrong. You can’t say you have zero tolerance for vertical progression. Want to know why?

Because before Anet introduced ascended gear at all….vertical progression was already in this game.

Exotics, rares, and masterwork items all have the same levels, but they’re different tiers of the same gear. That is vertical progression.

You don’t have zero tolerance for vertical progression, or you’d be complaining about exotics.

You have an arbitrary line that Anet crossed and you’re calling it vertical progression. Why are you not complaining about exotic gear?

ok. do what you want with language.
still, i think that if i “misunderstand” everything, you are stuck in semantics, losing the global meaning of what people is complaining about.

no. i m right if i say zero tolerance to vp. or…“that’s enough vp”.
as exotics were there since the launch of the game, and were always easily got after 80. with little to no “aimed” grind.
this doesn’t happen with ascended.
it’s a time and money\resources\amount of work threshold.
and of course, a “stop line” threshold, no more tiers, no more stats.

is this philosophically and philologically correct, prof.Vayne?
of course not.
but still our “arbitrary grind line” exists. and it’s personal one, and nobody has the right to "correct"it.
just express your personal one.

Kevan.8912:

Vayne.8563:

Kevan.8912:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fixing the availability seems weighted more to two slot types: armor and back pieces.

Fixing the system so VP is kept to a minimal level relies on limiting how much power growth is done in the future. (If not refusing to grow it at all.)

. . . can we all agree on these points?

i think that the “time” and “effort” factors could be a problem also for weapons, which are unlikely drops and, in the facts, require crafting too.
(in my opinion. everything should be available without crafting. as it’s not a work, everybody should be able to obtain what he needs, doing only what he likes more.
it’s a game. real world is tough enough.)

for trinkets and necks, i find it grindy but still “tolerable”.

Vertical Progression: for me, zero tolerance it’s more than enough what we’ve already seen. a big not to everything else which improves stats.
i think that if anets manages to show a real, mature, enjoyable horizontal progression, it could change the whole, grind-ill, life-wasting, mmo world.
and that’s why i bought it.

Actually you’re completely wrong. You can’t say you have zero tolerance for vertical progression. Want to know why?

Because before Anet introduced ascended gear at all….vertical progression was already in this game.

Exotics, rares, and masterwork items all have the same levels, but they’re different tiers of the same gear. That is vertical progression.

You don’t have zero tolerance for vertical progression, or you’d be complaining about exotics.

You have an arbitrary line that Anet crossed and you’re calling it vertical progression. Why are you not complaining about exotic gear?

ok. do what you want with language.
still, i think that if i “misunderstand” everything, you are stuck in semantics, losing the global meaning of what people is complaining about.

no. i m right if i say zero tolerance to vp. or…“that’s enough vp”.
as exotics were there since the launch of the game, and were always easily got after 80. with little to no “aimed” grind.
this doesn’t happen with ascended.
it’s a time and money\resources\amount of work threshold.
and of course, a “stop line” threshold, no more tiers, no more stats.

is this philosophically and philologically correct, prof.Vayne?
of course not.
but still our “arbitrary grind line” exists. and it’s personal one, and nobody has the right to "correct"it.
just express your personal one.

The point is you’re not really complaining about VP, you’re complaining about the difficulty of getting BIS gear, which is a different complaint. And if people don’t word their complaints right, how will anyone know what they’re talking about.

People often accuse me of playing semantics. The fact is, people often misword stuff and leave a false impression. You have no real problem with more tiers of gear, if that gear is easy to get. That’s the real issue.

If anyone could easily get a new tier of gear, I doubt very much anyone here would be complaining.

But the gear is basically gated behind crafting, which is a major problem.

Anet isn’t going to take away a tier of gear…but they could conceivably make that gear easier to get.

You can accuse me of playing semantics, but if you really want the game to improve, you have to ask for things that might happen…because Anet won’t be removing ascended gear from the game. It’s not going to happen.

But they might make ascended gear easier to get, with less grind.

the issue are that:
- ascended is a new BiS
- and ALSO hard to get

i DO have real problems with more tiers.
another tier of new BiS would stil be a problem to me. also if easy to get.
so, the problem is also vp as it is. not only that gear is not readily available.
(and as we know the aim of new tiers is to be a time\money sink, so it s quite a contradiction to expect that new equip would be acquired in few hours)

the “compromises” about the ways to acquire ascended were done on the basis that anet will never remove them. but could at least reduce grind.
and stop vp to the point we are now…and start with horizontal

Kevan.8912:

the issue are that:
- ascended is a new BiS
- and ALSO hard to get

another tier of new BiS would stil be a problem. also if easy to get.
so, the problem is also vp as it is. not only that gear is not readily available.

(and as we know the aim of new tiers is to be a time\money sink, so it s quite a contradiction to expect that new equip would be acquired in few hours)

the “compromises” about the ways to acquire ascended were done on the basis that anet will never remove them. but could at least reduce grind.
and stop vp to the point we are now…and start with horizontal

We’re not as far apart in our opinions in this as you think. I agree with you.

But I think the way you word things is less likely to have a positive affect than you’d hope for, that’s all.

I agree that there shouldn’t be more tiers of gear. I agree there should be easier ways to get existing tiers of gear. And I agree there should be more horizontal progression rather than vertical progression.

Vayne.8563:

Kevan.8912:

Vayne.8563:

Kevan.8912:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fixing the availability seems weighted more to two slot types: armor and back pieces.

Fixing the system so VP is kept to a minimal level relies on limiting how much power growth is done in the future. (If not refusing to grow it at all.)

. . . can we all agree on these points?

i think that the “time” and “effort” factors could be a problem also for weapons, which are unlikely drops and, in the facts, require crafting too.
(in my opinion. everything should be available without crafting. as it’s not a work, everybody should be able to obtain what he needs, doing only what he likes more.
it’s a game. real world is tough enough.)

for trinkets and necks, i find it grindy but still “tolerable”.

Vertical Progression: for me, zero tolerance it’s more than enough what we’ve already seen. a big not to everything else which improves stats.
i think that if anets manages to show a real, mature, enjoyable horizontal progression, it could change the whole, grind-ill, life-wasting, mmo world.
and that’s why i bought it.

Actually you’re completely wrong. You can’t say you have zero tolerance for vertical progression. Want to know why?

Because before Anet introduced ascended gear at all….vertical progression was already in this game.

Exotics, rares, and masterwork items all have the same levels, but they’re different tiers of the same gear. That is vertical progression.

You don’t have zero tolerance for vertical progression, or you’d be complaining about exotics.

You have an arbitrary line that Anet crossed and you’re calling it vertical progression. Why are you not complaining about exotic gear?

ok. do what you want with language.
still, i think that if i “misunderstand” everything, you are stuck in semantics, losing the global meaning of what people is complaining about.

no. i m right if i say zero tolerance to vp. or…“that’s enough vp”.
as exotics were there since the launch of the game, and were always easily got after 80. with little to no “aimed” grind.
this doesn’t happen with ascended.
it’s a time and money\resources\amount of work threshold.
and of course, a “stop line” threshold, no more tiers, no more stats.

is this philosophically and philologically correct, prof.Vayne?
of course not.
but still our “arbitrary grind line” exists. and it’s personal one, and nobody has the right to "correct"it.
just express your personal one.

The point is you’re not really complaining about VP, you’re complaining about the difficulty of getting BIS gear, which is a different complaint. And if people don’t word their complaints right, how will anyone know what they’re talking about.

People often accuse me of playing semantics. The fact is, people often misword stuff and leave a false impression. You have no real problem with more tiers of gear, if that gear is easy to get. That’s the real issue.

If anyone could easily get a new tier of gear, I doubt very much anyone here would be complaining.

But the gear is basically gated behind crafting, which is a major problem.

Anet isn’t going to take away a tier of gear…but they could conceivably make that gear easier to get.

You can accuse me of playing semantics, but if you really want the game to improve, you have to ask for things that might happen…because Anet won’t be removing ascended gear from the game. It’s not going to happen.

But they might make ascended gear easier to get, with less grind.

I hated grinding out levels to unlock new zones, leveling up crafting to craft useless gear cause leveling was still fast enough to make crafting useless before lvl 80. I totally despise the way Ascended weapons and armor are implemented. You are right on the fact that we don’t like long grindy time gated methods of getting BIS gear. There are plenty of grindy MMOs out there for people who enjoy that kind of thing. We were sold on the idea that once you are lvl80, BIS is quick and easy, that’s why many of use bought into GW2.

Subdue.5479:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Subdue.5479:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Subdue.5479:

Let’s say you’re correct and that’s what early buyers wanted. Now, it’s not, as can be seen by the larger turn out of players, by new found organization amongst players to secure objectives. Let’s not forget that a quick google search will show that a lot of people were complaining that there was nothing left to achieve once they hit 80. Is it really a wrong turn for the game given that more people like it than not? More people are active within the game now, than before?

Do you have a link to show that more people play now than at launch? Do you have metrics to show that people who were complaining about “nothing to achieve” would not have been satisfied with more robust horizontal progression — of which there was very little at launch — and very little today.

I remember a lot of “nothing to do” posts, not a lot of “no stat increase to grind for” posts.

I wasn’t playing this game at launch, so I can’t really comment as to how populated this game was at launch. I can say that however that Lion’s Arch has been more active and populated on Yak’s Bend in the last few weeks than it was 3-4 months ago.

That’s a personal observation though, and I don’t really expect you to put much stock in that. Instead, let’s look at the facts. A.Net is a for-profit company, seeking to maximize their gains. Do you think they would implement ascended weapons after ascended accessories and amulets if the statistics showed that introduction of ascended accessories turned more people away from the game than brought people in or kept people playing? Do you think they would implement ascended armors after ascended armors if they saw that ascended weapons turned more people away than brought them in?

Be logical. A.Net isn’t making decisions in a vacuum here. They’re trying to give as many players as possible what they want. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Ascended items were a great compromise. They do not gate players out of any content but they do give players that are more accustomed to some stat progression something to look forward to.

Be logical… OK.

I have no trouble believing that more people currently playing either like the Ascended pursuit or don’t care one way or the other about it than there are players that hate it. However, that’s because some of the players who don’t like the change in direction have left the game with each Ascended implementation.

The population that’s opposed gets smaller with each additional type of Ascended added. Failure to push the remainder of the tier out would have angered the population who wanted the tier. Having driven off players on one side of the discussion, driving off the other side would not be a good business decision.

I do believe that economics played an important role in the Ascended decision. We’ll never know what might have happened if ANet had opted to provide the promised horizontal/cosmetic progression rather than shallow vertical progression. They had the opportunity to push the alternative MMO progression they advertised. However, it doesn’t take an economist to realize that adding Ascended Rings and a back-piece took a lot less resources than developing the robust options for skill-based and/or cosmetic progression that would have been needed for HP.

Do you believe that that more people who hate ascended gear quit than people who stayed for it or even returned for it, keeping in mind that it was released in stages, after each Arena.Net was able to kitten the net effect of the changes on the population?

I think that the number of people who left due to Ascended got smaller with each release, and were a smaller percentage of the overall population. That only stands to reason, because the anti-Ascended numbers are mostly going down, not up. Many of those players are GW enthusiasts, and GW2 has added almost nothing to appeal to that crowd since November, 2012.

Players can only guess at numbers. ANet is also guessing, but to a lesser extent. Metrics can be deceiving. For instance, prior to the first Ascended release, people left the game. Of the ~50 in my guild, ~45 left. Not one of them cared about progression — they cared that PvP was lackluster, and no fun. They were primarily from a GW alliance that did a lot of HoH and some GvG. If I had to guess, I’d say more people left because of poor PvP implementation than left over progression. However, they would have been counted as having left and lumped in with other leavers.

I don’t doubt people left because of lack of goals. I also don’t doubt that some of those didn’t come back for Ascended. I don’t doubt that some raiders looked at Ascended and laughed on their way out the door. How many is anyone’s guess.

i’m sure ANet knows quite precisely this “numbers”

what ppl like us can see, is only a piece of the whole, but it is clear that a lot of players who bought the game early quitted soon, and many of them did it because endgame lacks content…and many others after ascended introduction because STILL endgame sucks AND ascended are a pain and against their “ideals”

i don’t know if gw2 has increased its population after, and i don’t know if the new players/ comeback players did it because of ascended or for other reasons, but the fact that a lot of “faithful” players who bought the game at launch (gw1 lovers? casuals?) quitted soon is a symptom that there’s a huge issue around.

Having stuff to do and stuff to grind is fine. All we GW1 purists are saying is that the stat increase is not needed. Stat progression isn’t needed, give us what we really love, skill diversity and more of your game being aimed at max level characters. Seriously, compare how much of GW1 was focused on level 20 players to how many GW2 zones are for level 80s. Compare the build diversity. People complaining about wanting more to do does not equate to wanting new BiS gear to grind out that is enormously expensive and time gated.

Horizontal progression works, copying WoW isn’t necessary to make a great game. Lower the ascended gears stat level to be the same as exotic, or raise exotic to its tier and we’ll be done arguing. Having the grind as an option is fine, but making it the highest tier BiS gear means that for many of us it doesn’t feel like an “option” at all.

Please don’t talk for all GW1 players, and if you are going to talk about GW1 at least make sure to take the whole game into account. Or are you simply unfamiliar with the skills added with Factions and forward that required quite a bit of grinding to level up and make powerful?

Kevan.8912:

i’m sure ANet knows quite precisely this “numbers”

what ppl like us can see, is only a piece of the whole, but it is clear that a lot of players who bought the game early quitted soon, and many of them did it because endgame lacks content…and many others after ascended introduction because STILL endgame sucks AND ascended are a pain and against their “ideals”

i don’t know if gw2 has increased its population after, and i don’t know if the new players/ comeback players did it because of ascended or for other reasons, but the fact that a lot of “faithful” players who bought the game at launch (gw1 lovers? casuals?) quitted soon is a symptom that there’s a huge issue around.

I don’t know if that’s what it means. I see a whole lot of people running around with GWAMM titles. You’re guessing here about how many original Guild Wars 1 players don’t like what’s going on, and for how many this is a deal breaker for.

lordkrall.7241:

Please don’t talk for all GW1 players, and if you are going to talk about GW1 at least make sure to take the whole game into account. Or are you simply unfamiliar with the skills added with Factions and forward that required quite a bit of grinding to level up and make powerful?

You’re right, I apologize, I’m sure some GW1 players didn’t love the same things I did. I was never bothered by the faction requirements for skills because I earned enough to make them plenty effective just by playing the game the way I wanted to.

You mean just like how people in GW2 earn enough stuff to get Ascended by playing the way they want? What is the difference?
None of them are required.
Some people like them, some don’t.
I really don’t see any difference at all.

lordkrall.7241:

You mean just like how people in GW2 earn enough stuff to get Ascended by playing the way they want? What is the difference?
None of them are required.
Some people like them, some don’t.
I really don’t see any difference at all.

Maybe there isn’t one? But I didn’t notice/mind one, while I hate the other enough to want punch somebody in the face. All I can do is offer them feedback, and let them know what I liked and what I don’t. After that it’s all up to them.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know if that’s what it means. I see a whole lot of people running around with GWAMM titles. You’re guessing here about how many original Guild Wars 1 players don’t like what’s going on, and for how many this is a deal breaker for.

i don’t even try to give any percentages or numbers.i don’t know.
i’m sure anet had some reasons, but my feeling is that they lost MANY.
(and i feel that they lost more ppl than the expected, especially if compared to increase/not decrease in population they wanted)
i said “many”. because i know many friends (talking about hundreds. of the three guilds i played with) who, like me, have quitted at the end of 2012 because of the things we know.

i’m here to express my feeling about the game.
-it’s not my “work” to understand why they did it, and if it was better or not for their economy. (above, it’s just my superficial pov)
still, here i am, complaining about the game, and of course not playing it-
my hate for new tiers. for new gear progression. my hate for “forced” (because i feel it so. plz don’t explain me again because other ppl dont feel it mandatory.) grind.
but i think it’s been explicited too many times.

another personal opinion of a noob and a consumer.
i think that vertical progression could be painlessly bypassed by introducing a decent horizontal one, but with a slightly harder work to make it worth.

@Kevan

You keep saying the same thing over and over. “This is my opinion, this is my opinion this is my opinion… not my job to understand, not my job to understand… blah blah blah.” Seems to me like if you don’t want other people criticizing your flawed views, you should put them in your diary, not a forum meant for discussion.

Subdue.5479:

YOU CAN CHOOSE NOT TO MAKE ASCENDED ITEMS. NOT MAKING THE ASCENDED ITEMS DOES NOT LOCK YOU OUT OF ANY CONTENT.

I’m going to use your dirty little trick against you and lordkrall: Not having Ascended gear DOES lock you out of some game content: High-end Fractals.
No ifs, no buts.
No Ascended gear?
Your Fractal progression is locked to a certain level.

Subdue.5479:

@Kevan

You keep saying the same thing over and over. “This is my opinion, this is my opinion this is my opinion… not my job to understand, not my job to understand… blah blah blah.” Seems to me like if you don’t want other people criticizing your flawed views, you should put them in your diary, not a forum meant for discussion.

it’s your opinion that my views are flawed. not absolute truth.
at least, i’m conscient that it’s my personal view.
you’re are so sure of everything.

and continue to go OT, and keep insulting people “teaching” what’s wrong and why.

as i said, your opinion about it is welcome.
say why do you like it or not.
not why the others MUST like it or not.

Mungrul.9358:

I’m going to use your dirty little trick against you and lordkrall: Not having Ascended gear DOES lock you out of some game content: High-end Fractals.
No ifs, no buts.
No Ascended gear?
Your Fractal progression is locked to a certain level.

And what can you see behind those levels that you can’t see at lvl 1? I am almost 100% sure that the fractals at lvl 50 is exactly the same as the fractals at lvl 1.

I can’t say that I am 100% sure, seeing as I have not gotten to lvl 50 fractals, but I have gotten to around lvl 30, and I have yet to see any Fractal that I couldn’t see at lvl 1. So if someone have gotten to lvl 50 I would love to hear some spoilers about all those new things you can only access there.

Mungrul.9358:

Subdue.5479:

YOU CAN CHOOSE NOT TO MAKE ASCENDED ITEMS. NOT MAKING THE ASCENDED ITEMS DOES NOT LOCK YOU OUT OF ANY CONTENT.

I’m going to use your dirty little trick against you and lordkrall: Not having Ascended gear DOES lock you out of some game content: High-end Fractals.
No ifs, no buts.
No Ascended gear?
Your Fractal progression is locked to a certain level.

And was designed SPECIFICALLY for that in mind. The fractals were designed to give people who want to grind that play style. That’s their purpose.

If you don’t want to do it, you can play EVERY fractal without ever getting ascended gear. You can see every fractal. You can experience every boss.

You can’t play the higher levels, but you know…that’s a great compromise. The kind of compromise most games don’t provide.

Vayne.8563:

Mungrul.9358:

Subdue.5479:

YOU CAN CHOOSE NOT TO MAKE ASCENDED ITEMS. NOT MAKING THE ASCENDED ITEMS DOES NOT LOCK YOU OUT OF ANY CONTENT.

I’m going to use your dirty little trick against you and lordkrall: Not having Ascended gear DOES lock you out of some game content: High-end Fractals.
No ifs, no buts.
No Ascended gear?
Your Fractal progression is locked to a certain level.

And was designed SPECIFICALLY for that in mind. The fractals were designed to give people who want to grind that play style. That’s their purpose.

If you don’t want to do it, you can play EVERY fractal without ever getting ascended gear. You can see every fractal. You can experience every boss.

You can’t play the higher levels, but you know…that’s a great compromise. The kind of compromise most games don’t provide.

I don’t find fracts a grind, i do find ar a grind thou, i would much prefer they removed ar and let us play to lvl 80 fracts, some peeps enjoy hard content but don’t enjoy hard grind.

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

Mungrul.9358:

Subdue.5479:

YOU CAN CHOOSE NOT TO MAKE ASCENDED ITEMS. NOT MAKING THE ASCENDED ITEMS DOES NOT LOCK YOU OUT OF ANY CONTENT.

I’m going to use your dirty little trick against you and lordkrall: Not having Ascended gear DOES lock you out of some game content: High-end Fractals.
No ifs, no buts.
No Ascended gear?
Your Fractal progression is locked to a certain level.

And was designed SPECIFICALLY for that in mind. The fractals were designed to give people who want to grind that play style. That’s their purpose.

If you don’t want to do it, you can play EVERY fractal without ever getting ascended gear. You can see every fractal. You can experience every boss.

You can’t play the higher levels, but you know…that’s a great compromise. The kind of compromise most games don’t provide.

I don’t find fracts a grind, i do find ar a grind thou, i would much prefer they removed ar and let us play to lvl 80 fracts, some peeps enjoy hard content but don’t enjoy hard grind.

Without the grind, people would be done with it in a week and they’ve have nothing to do. That’s really the whole point of the exercise. If it was going to be something you can just do, it would not have been successful…not in the way that Anet needed it to be anyway.

What does BiS stand for?