I think the Norns function well as an archetypal conceived and implemented character. You can build them as a non-flabby muscled beast and I have a couple matching this description. The problem comes in for me in actually playing one. There lumbering gait burns me out in the course of one play session.
I have yet to see a male norn that doesn’t look like a disproportionate freak… even the slimmer options have legs thinner than their arms, wich make no sense at all!
I think the problem is you’re expecting them to look exactly like taller humans when Anet seem to have made an effort to make them (the males at least) look like a different race. For a norn they’re no more disproportionate than the charr.
If you want your character to look human play a human.
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that would make sense if it was both the male and the females.
why do the females look just like taller humans?
and why don’t the males? is it because females should be sexy in games? why shouldn’t males be sexy too then?
There really is an odd look in the Human and Norn male chests. Most everything else feels suitably proportional, except that one section feeling a bit overlong and flat.
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again, if they are not just tall humans why do norn women look basically like tall women? They are just a tiny bit bulkier, but they have none of the weird male norn proportions (really short legs, huge arms, tiny head, huge flabby chest)
again, if they are not just tall humans why do norn women look basically like tall women? They are just a tiny bit bulkier, but they have none of the weird male norn proportions (really short legs, huge arms, tiny head, huge flabby chest)
I too feel like male Norns have weird proportions and a strange gait.
It really sucks because this was the first bit of concept art that really got me excited to play this game, but the male norns in-game are just…weird, and a little bit grotesque.
I’ve made a whole bunch of them and just ended up deleting them because I couldn’t get over how silly they look. Their animations are also awkward. Add to all this the ridiculous spiky armor sets and big greatswords and they just end up looking like the cartoonish hulks from like WoW.
I’d love to be able to make a Norn that looks like Braham concept art, but it’s just not possible in-game. Even the in-game Braham looks silly compared to his concept art. It’s maddening.
It’s weird…I never felt the Norns from Guild Wars (1) had these issues.
again, if they are not just tall humans why do norn women look basically like tall women? They are just a tiny bit bulkier, but they have none of the weird male norn proportions (really short legs, huge arms, tiny head, huge flabby chest)
Testosterone?
testorterone doesn’t shrink your legs or head though…
it’s just a design decision.
I’m just fed up with games always trying to make beautiful women and monstruous males for a same race. in GW2 they did it right with Charr and Asura, but completely missed the mark with norns…
Exactly, if Norn were supposed to look like that, then the women should as well. The women look just like tall human women, whereas the men do have some odd proportions. One thing that bugs me is how their necks stick forward so much (and are also very short necked). I can never imagine making a male Norn because none of the design choices appeal to me. But I’m more than happy to make an overweight (as much as is possible in this game) male Human, because at least they don’t look oddly built.
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again, if they are not just tall humans why do norn women look basically like tall women? They are just a tiny bit bulkier, but they have none of the weird male norn proportions (really short legs, huge arms, tiny head, huge flabby chest)
Because fantasy games are still marketed primarily to hetero teenage males, who will lose their kittens if the women don’t look good in the chainmail bikinis. Charr and asura females don’t look human enough so they can get away with it. But female norn and silvari need to look supermodelly.
that’s exactly the problem. I’m not saying that there can’t be good looking female characters in game, but there NEEDS to be diversity, we should be able to make a sexy female norn and a tough mean one, we should be able to make a sexy male norn with more regular proportions and also be able to make a hulkling beast.
But giving only sexy options to females and hulk options to males is limiting, for everyone.
Compare Norn girls to human girls. They weren’t conceived to look similar to their male counterparts. They were conceived to look way different from human females.
I would like more intermediate options for norn(Wider and more muscular girls, thinner and less muscular guys), but the discrepancy between the sexes is not really a problem.
I really don’t like male Norn because they IMO just bigger human. While female ones at least are eyecandy to me, the males are plain boring. Making them MORE like humans would not solve this at all.
TLDR: It is a subjective problem. For me Norn doesn’t need to look more human. They need to look more like spirit-beasts.
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that’s exactly the problem. I’m not saying that there can’t be good looking female characters in game, but there NEEDS to be diversity, we should be able to make a sexy female norn and a tough mean one, we should be able to make a sexy male norn with more regular proportions and also be able to make a hulkling beast.
But giving only sexy options to females and hulk options to males is limiting, for everyone.
Absolutely, but in the end it comes down to money. The company behind the game has limited resources and allocates those resources in ways that management believes will bring the greatest benefit. Ultimately that means options that sell more copies of the game or more gems for the cash shop prevail over those that would be nice but don’t appeal to as many paying customers. This is why charr/asura clipping issues will never be fully addressed, because it annoys a lot of people, but very few will quit the game over it. The cost of fixing hundreds of armor models outweighs the loss of revenue from those who quit over it.
Likewise the norn models. The women are supermodels because that’s what sells games to kitteny teenagers, when it comes to the males the designers were probably given instructions along the lines of “take the male human model and make it taller and wider… ok, that’s good enough.”
Actually, female Norn do have a different build than Human women in GW2. The reason that most people don’t notice is that Norn females look more like real life Human women than GW2 Human women do. Human women look like typical fantasy females (a slightly slimmer build than a health RL human female). Norn females are a little less slim, especially in the waist, kind of like RL humans.
Also, most medium and heavy outfits cover up or add bulk to the parts of Human or Norn females where the difference is most easily seen. It’s easier to notice in female light armor, where you can have to scantily-clad characters stand side-by-side in the same outfit for comparison.
As far as MALE Norn go, I agree that it is ridiculous that a race of shape-shifting giant humanoids that can naturally run around bare-chested in artic conditions don’t look totally realistic. (That was sarcasm, if you didn’t figure it out). Norn are NOT Human, and shouldn’t be expected to adhere to human proportions any more than Charr or Asura. As to the difference between Norn Male and Female proportions, they are a fantasy race. Anything is possible. Now, just don’t get me started on how wooden the running animation of male Sylvari is!
so just because it is fantasy everything goes?
it’s not that simple.
fantasy is always based on reality and the vision of reality of the author. I’m telling that it’s unfair to many that male norns have over the top body proportions, but female norns get much more realistic ones, just because straight guys want to see sexy girls.
if you want to have sexy girls, fine. but don’t take away the CHOICE to have sexy guys of the same race. Not EVERYONE is a straight male.
I think they made them too big. I can understand them being a bit thicker but their proportions are not very appealing. Also their gait feels too slow.
Its okay if they are a tad thicker, but they went overboard imo.
As far as MALE Norn go, I agree that it is ridiculous that a race of shape-shifting giant humanoids that can naturally run around bare-chested in artic conditions don’t look totally realistic.
But could the game have at least given them better chests to look at?
They’re a little different from how they looked in Guild Wars, but I don’t have a problem with it. They’re NOT human. They resemble humans, but I like that they are somewhat different. The women are also a bit different than the human women. All norn seem to be a little more top heavy, broad shoulders, broad and deep chests, with narrow hips. The only thing that bothers me is the lack of body types for the women. They’re all the same with different amounts of bulk, whereas the humans have different waist and bust combinations, in addition to bulk.
Actually, this is another thing that bugs me. I get that they are taller so it makes sense that they look slower and they can’t have races like norn and char moving faster than everybody else because of their anatomy. At least maybe make their strides longer so it doesn’t feel like you’re running through molasses
Perhaps, the designers took a page from nature where the male and female of a species don’t always look the same. Sometimes, the female is much larger, sometimes the male is much more colorful, or adorned, or hirsute. Sometimes, the body structure is vastly different.
I hadn’t really thought about it, but some time before I stopped playing him I thought to myself how disproportionately skinny my Norn Warrior’s legs looked. I haven’t had the itch to pick that toon back up, and I’m pretty sure that’s a big factor.
Personally, its the female Norn I actually have a problem with. If they wanted huge gorilla men for the males, females should look similarly bulky instead of being slender and “sexy”.
Hmm… this thread should probably go in the Lore forum, but anyhow, as you guys have rightly pointed out, Norn aren’t genetically related to Humans at all.
In terms of design, I think ANet’s graphic artists have done at least some body proportion tweaking on Norn characters. It seems to me that in the character creation screen, Norn women generally have wider shoulder to hip ratios and a wider skeletal structure overall as compared to Human females – giving them a more… robust physique. Norn men, on the other hand, also have wide-set ‘barrel chests’ and really huge neck muscles – muscles in the right places where real strongmen (or strongwomen, as it were) should have.
That aside, LOL, yes! Norn stride speed does make them look like they’re wading through molasses. I know they have to make the run speed equal for all characters, but still… ugh!
Norn women look like real human females, not GW2 females. they have somewhat realistic proportions. Norn Men do not look like realistic muscled guys at all, If one were to see someone with those proportions in real life one would run away screaming. that’s my issue. If you want to say “they are a fantasy race and have other proportions”, then just sexual diphormism is a pale excuse to explain why only males have those whacky body proportions.
again, if they are not just tall humans why do norn women look basically like tall women? They are just a tiny bit bulkier, but they have none of the weird male norn proportions (really short legs, huge arms, tiny head, huge flabby chest)
Testosterone?
testorterone doesn’t shrink your legs or head though…
it’s just a design decision.
I’m just fed up with games always trying to make beautiful women and monstruous males for a same race. in GW2 they did it right with Charr and Asura, but completely missed the mark with norns…
Testosterone doesn’t shrink my legs or a human’s legs. But we’re not talking about humans or me though, are we? You’re asking for a scientific explanation of why a Norn is built the way he is – the simple answer is that’s how Norn males work. Their physiology is how it is, and that’s all we can say on the matter.
again those are just lame excuses to justify a design decision. and not what I am talking about.
the real reason why norn males are built that way is because they made it like that. they assume men want hulkling beasts for male characters and pretty tall ladies when playing female ones.
And Im saying it is very limiting for those of us who want something out if those 2 options. what If I want a tall handsome male norn and a hulkling huge female?
For me its the fact all the armor they can wear (besides cultural) is designed on a human model which creates very wierd looking disproportionate armor. Given that, i would prefer a more human proportioned model to make up for lazy armor design.
again those are just lame excuses to justify a design decision. and not what I am talking about.
the real reason why norn males are built that way is because they made it like that. they assume men want hulkling beasts for male characters and pretty tall ladies when playing female ones.
And Im saying it is very limiting for those of us who want something out if those 2 options. what If I want a tall handsome male norn and a hulkling huge female?
Why not just make yourself a nice human male if that’s the look you want?
Exactly, if Norn were supposed to look like that, then the women should as well. The women look just like tall human women, whereas the men do have some odd proportions. One thing that bugs me is how their necks stick forward so much (and are also very short necked). I can never imagine making a male Norn because none of the design choices appeal to me. But I’m more than happy to make an overweight (as much as is possible in this game) male Human, because at least they don’t look oddly built.
I think you need to watch some more nature documentaries.
again those are just lame excuses to justify a design decision. and not what I am talking about.
the real reason why norn males are built that way is because they made it like that. they assume men want hulkling beasts for male characters and pretty tall ladies when playing female ones.
And Im saying it is very limiting for those of us who want something out if those 2 options. what If I want a tall handsome male norn and a hulkling huge female?
The design of Norns was made back in Guild Wars 1. Probably before they decided to abandon Guild Wars 1 and start on Guild Wars 2 and certainly before they were a playable race. They had the same overall design as now. The women looked more like humans and the men were small headed with large chests, long torsos and shorter legs.
Guild Wars 1 Norns
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so it is not a problem that females in games are usually lomited to being sexy while for male characters it is not the same? isnt limiting options just because of unfair gender stereotypes in a game where we try to have personalized avatars a problem?
testorterone doesn’t shrink your legs or head though…
testorterone doesn’t shrink your legs or head though…[/quote]The legs and head aren’t underdeveloped as much as the arms and chest are overdeveloped. No, I don’t like that Norn skipped on Leg Day, either. But the larger-body-than-head situation’s deliberate.
so it is not a problem that females in games are usually lomited to being sexy while for male characters it is not the same? isnt limiting options just because of unfair gender stereotypes in a game where we try to have personalized avatars a problem?
Just because you find women to be sexy doesn’t mean it’s a problem. Norn women feature builds that are less bulky than male builds (But significantly bulkier than human females), and are symmetrically designed.
it’s not just a bulky issue.
if make norns were in fact just bulky, like the concept art I posted there would be no problem, but they are not, they are deformed, short legs, small head, huge arms and chest, while females have much more realistic proportions.
the guys look ridiculous and not menacing. also, giving sexy options to only female characters is not fair.
it’s not just a bulky issue.
if make norns were in fact just bulky, like the concept art I posted there would be no problem, but they are not, they are deformed, short legs, small head, huge arms and chest, while females have much more realistic proportions.
the guys look ridiculous and not menacing. also, giving sexy options to only female characters is not fair.
And the point is that they are not human. The male proportions can’t be looked at on a human scale and then claimed to be deformed. It’s like someone looking at a hyena with its large head, ungainly gait, and sloping back leading to short hind legs and saying its deformed because they don’t have a dog’s proportions.
Sexual dimorphism can take any form. There are species where the female is larger than the male and species where the body proportions are different between the sexes. You’re expecting a non human species to have human proportions and faulting the males as being deformed because they don’t look human.
As to giving “sexy options” only to females. Female Norns would disagree and consider their men sexy and human men deformed. After all, it’s their species and that what they would have evolved to find good looking.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
it’s not just a bulky issue.
if make norns were in fact just bulky, like the concept art I posted there would be no problem, but they are not, they are deformed, short legs, small head, huge arms and chest, while females have much more realistic proportions.
the guys look ridiculous and not menacing. also, giving sexy options to only female characters is not fair.
The small head is deliberate. The rest, though, I agree is wonky. I wish the norn had “Sexy Bulk”, though (Like football players)
it’s not just a bulky issue.
if make norns were in fact just bulky, like the concept art I posted there would be no problem, but they are not, they are deformed, short legs, small head, huge arms and chest, while females have much more realistic proportions.
the guys look ridiculous and not menacing. also, giving sexy options to only female characters is not fair.
And the point is that they are not human. The male proportions can’t be looked at on a human scale and then claimed to be deformed. It’s like someone looking at a hyena with its large head, ungainly gait, and sloping back leading to short hind legs and saying its deformed because they don’t have a dog’s proportions.
Sexual dimorphism can take any form. There are species where the female is larger than the male and species where the body proportions are different between the sexes. You’re expecting a non human species to have human proportions and faulting the males as being deformed because they don’t look human.
As to giving “sexy options” only to females. Female Norns would disagree and consider their men sexy and human men deformed. After all, it’s their species and that what they would have evolved to find good looking.
oh please. this game is not made for imaginary races, it is made for US human players. when I mean “sexy” I mean sexy for US human players. female norns are sexy for US human players, norn males, to US human players are DEFORMED and NOT sexy.
Again, this is not about whatever lore reasons the artists have for making them that way, this is to point that giving sexy options just to females is NOT FAIR to US human players. you can make male norns have big bodies and not be deformed and they would have been 1) more in tune with their female counterparts and 2) giving male characters the OPTION to be both sexy or tough.
oh please. this game is not made for imaginary races, it is made for US human players. when I mean “sexy” I mean sexy for US human players. female norns are sexy for US human players, norn males, to US human players are DEFORMED and NOT sexy.
Again, this is not about whatever lore reasons the artists have for making them that way, this is to point that giving sexy options just to females is NOT FAIR to US human players. you can make male norns have big bodies and not be deformed and they would have been 1) more in tune with their female counterparts and 2) giving male characters the OPTION to be both sexy or tough.
I assume you mean the word ‘us’ and not US, because I’m from the UK myself.
But I disagree with your opinion. Female Norn might be sexy for you personally, but please don’t generalise the rest of us in a way that makes us all want to have characters be defined as ‘sexy’. I play the game to have fun in an immersive world, not to judge a beauty contest or catwalk. And you’re going a little over the top now with the ‘its not fair on male Norn’ argument now. Just because you don’t like how they’re shaped, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. There isn’t anything wrong with the shape of the male Norn, only to you it seems.
really? because there have been lots of topics about this, since the early beta.
it’s clearly not only MY issue.
if you find female norns beautiful or not is not the issue. they are designed to look like beautiful women. whereas male norns are designed to look as cartoony overly muscled guys with awful proportions. that’s the issue I’m talking about. not about the subjectivity of what is attractive to me or you.
it’s not just a bulky issue.
if make norns were in fact just bulky, like the concept art I posted there would be no problem, but they are not, they are deformed, short legs, small head, huge arms and chest, while females have much more realistic proportions.
the guys look ridiculous and not menacing. also, giving sexy options to only female characters is not fair.
And the point is that they are not human. The male proportions can’t be looked at on a human scale and then claimed to be deformed. It’s like someone looking at a hyena with its large head, ungainly gait, and sloping back leading to short hind legs and saying its deformed because they don’t have a dog’s proportions.
Sexual dimorphism can take any form. There are species where the female is larger than the male and species where the body proportions are different between the sexes. You’re expecting a non human species to have human proportions and faulting the males as being deformed because they don’t look human.
As to giving “sexy options” only to females. Female Norns would disagree and consider their men sexy and human men deformed. After all, it’s their species and that what they would have evolved to find good looking.
oh please. this game is not made for imaginary races, it is made for US human players. when I mean “sexy” I mean sexy for US human players. female norns are sexy for US human players, norn males, to US human players are DEFORMED and NOT sexy.
Again, this is not about whatever lore reasons the artists have for making them that way, this is to point that giving sexy options just to females is NOT FAIR to US human players. you can make male norns have big bodies and not be deformed and they would have been 1) more in tune with their female counterparts and 2) giving male characters the OPTION to be both sexy or tough.
If they were going to go by what people think is sexy then they would have put human breasts on fem Charr and Asura, like a number of people have repeatedly asked for on many threads over the years, and male Asura would look more like Human males with wider chests and more muscles.
They didn’t though. They respected the lore for all 3 races and kept breasts off those two race’s females, kept Asuran males the same body type as female Asura and kept the Norn body types the same as Guild Wars 1 Norns.
You might not like it because to your human eyes they don’t look human and they don’t look right, but maybe that’s the point and it’s asking you to look beyond your expectations of what is sexy or what is correctly proportioned. Maybe just like it asks us to not expect breasts on Charr and Asura because they are female, it’s asking us to not expect human proportions in a non human.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
like I said, they nailed it with charr and asura. but they missed the mark with norns.
what if tomorrow all female norns had the same body proportions than the males have? small heads, huge arms, and short tiny legs? you think that everyone would be like “oh well, they are not humans, so we should not expect human proportions”? or you think that it would become a kittenstorm in the forums and game?
why is it acceptable to put these strange body proportions only on a male and not on a female?
