Guild Wars 2

Just been on “Current Topic Poll: Mid-Jan. 2013” and to the question of “Would you prefer if Magic Find was removed from the game completely?” 37 people answered “yes”.
my question is why?
Now my reasons why it is an okay build and okay mechanic.
1. The person wearing magic find sacrifices a stat like vitality or toughness. They still have the same amount of power and precision as a typical glass cannon. They still put out a lot of damage on dungeon bosses and certainly do not injure the team more than a glass cannon does.
2.They have double the chance to get good items. That’s it. A person with magic find would barely get more rewards in one dungeon run. In a week of just running dungeons they would probably end up having more loot than an average player.
What I’m saying is that magic find works, but it doesn’t give mountains of items everyday for people wearing them and in no way does it affect people that don’t wear them, so again, why is it hated so much?

1. Explorer’s:
Power: 698 = 1614 Total (916 is base)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Berserker’s:
Power: 1003 (30% more power) = 1919 Total (~16% higher power)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Crit Damage: 62% = 212% crit damage
Let’s take a dagger for the calculation with an average weapon damage of 952. Also let’s attack a target with 2600 armor (the armor that tooltips compare damage against). Also, let’s take a skill with 1.0 coefficient for easier calculations.
Damage: Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Damage with MF = 952*1614*1/2600=590 damage
Damage with Berserker = 952*1919*1/2600=702 damage
Now both have 33% chance of being critical so our total average damage is:
(<Non-critical*2>+<critical>) / 3
MF Critical: 590*150%=885
Berserker Critical: 702*212%=1488
Total Average damage with MF: (590*2+885)/3=688,3 dps
Total Average damage with Berserker: (702*2+1488)/3=984 dps

Answer: no they don’t put out a lot of damage on dungeon bosses. If you “want” to run that kind of gear, run Berserker instead

2. That’s reason enough, why should someone that does less be paid more? It’s the single stat that contributes nothing to a party…

Not the same amount of power. Between exotics it’s about a 237 difference.

I don’t hate it and it would be an okay mechanic if it actually delivered. In my experience it doesn’t and therefore it’s pretty pointless overall.

maddoctor.2738:

1. Explorer’s:
Power: 698 = 1614 Total (916 is base)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Berserker’s:
Power: 1003 (30% more power) = 1919 Total (~16% higher power)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Crit Damage: 62% = 212% crit damage
Let’s take a dagger for the calculation with an average weapon damage of 952. Also let’s attack a target with 2600 armor (the armor that tooltips compare damage against). Also, let’s take a skill with 1.0 coefficient for easier calculations.
Damage: Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Damage with MF = 952*1614*1/2600=590 damage
Damage with Berserker = 952*1919*1/2600=702 damage
Now both have 33% chance of being critical so our total average damage is:
(<Non-critical*2><critical>) / 3
MF Critical: 590*150%=885
Berserker Critical: 702*212%=1488
Total Average damage with MF: (590*2885)/3=688,3 dps
Total Average damage with Berserker: (702*2+1488)/3=984 dps

Answer: no they don’t put out a lot of damage on dungeon bosses. If you “want” to run that kind of gear, run Berserker instead

2. That’s reason enough, why should someone that does less be paid more? It’s the single stat that contributes nothing to a party…

Your power stats are wrong since the difference is less than 300 and crit damage is too high.

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/38285/Equipment_Stat_Differences.jpg

EDIT: Actually, are your numbers using divinity runes?

My stats come from the wiki: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item_nomenclature

MF needs to go, along with DR. It was a nice concept, but reducing damage and defence isn’t worth it for the items you find. And DR was pointless and demotivating in GW1, it’s no different here.

I do not in any way hate the players who use magic find, it is a stat afterall and should be used.

However, I think the stat is totally bull to have. We players should be rewared by using skills, building our characters in a way that increase our strenght in one way or the other, and loot drops should be given out if you managed to beat the enemy, not given some extra chance because you got a stat that increase rare loot drops, it’s just so bull in my opinion.

well, I think magic find don’t help that much for dungeon. because actually most of the reward come from chest. So even if I do have a magic find set I don’t use it.

I think the issue is if I don’t use magic find so the group can run more smoothly, why should other people use it.

I play warrior/guardian mostly. Wearing normal gear is much more efficient. For example the shout rune which remove condition. And more toughness and vitality to stay up longer.

I dont’ think it is so much about berserker vs explorer. It is more about those people wearing explorer could be using more vitality/toughness. Typically I don’t like to run dungeon with glasscannon. And now a glass cannon using magic find just make me dislike them more.

maddoctor.2738:

1. Explorer’s:
Power: 698 = 1614 Total (916 is base)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Berserker’s:
Power: 1003 (30% more power) = 1919 Total (~16% higher power)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Crit Damage: 62% = 212% crit damage
Let’s take a dagger for the calculation with an average weapon damage of 952. Also let’s attack a target with 2600 armor (the armor that tooltips compare damage against). Also, let’s take a skill with 1.0 coefficient for easier calculations.
Damage: Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Damage with MF = 952*1614*1/2600=590 damage
Damage with Berserker = 952*1919*1/2600=702 damage
Now both have 33% chance of being critical so our total average damage is:
(<Non-critical*2><critical>) / 3
MF Critical: 590*150%=885
Berserker Critical: 702*212%=1488
Total Average damage with MF: (590*2885)/3=688,3 dps
Total Average damage with Berserker: (702*2+1488)/3=984 dps

Answer: no they don’t put out a lot of damage on dungeon bosses. If you “want” to run that kind of gear, run Berserker instead

2. That’s reason enough, why should someone that does less be paid more? It’s the single stat that contributes nothing to a party…

1. How would magic find be different from heavy, light and medium corrupted orrian, dredge and knight armor sets when you choose toughness as your main stat, power, precision as secondary? Magic find uses put out the exact same amount of damage as those people.
2. How do you know that the person does less? We had a mesmer with MF once that was putting out the most damage due to confusion, was tanking due to all the blocking abilities he had and kept on getting people up while making himself immune to AoE.

Farzo.8410:

However, I think the stat is totally bull to have. We players should be rewared by using skills, building our characters in a way that increase our strenght in one way or the other, and loot drops should be given out if you managed to beat the enemy, not given some extra chance because you got a stat that increase rare loot drops, it’s just so bull in my opinion.

Well you are sacrificing a stat helping with survivability, so shouldn’t you be rewarded more for managing to survive with less toughness and survivability? In my opinion in order to have MF gear you have to accept that you’re sacrificing something and that’s why the rewards are increased.

Mirta.5029:

2. How do you know that the person does less? We had a mesmer with MF once that was putting out the most damage due to confusion, was tanking due to all the blocking abilities he had and kept on getting people up while making himself immune to AoE.

Care to tell me how you counted that he was doing more damage? Where is your dps meter?

maddoctor.2738:

Mirta.5029:

2. How do you know that the person does less? We had a mesmer with MF once that was putting out the most damage due to confusion, was tanking due to all the blocking abilities he had and kept on getting people up while making himself immune to AoE.

Care to tell me how you counted that he was doing more damage? Where is your dps meter?

2 000 damage every time a boss did anything (used an ability, attacked a player). Boss in CoE was spamming AoE. Every time he spammed AoE (5, 6 circles in a single session of spam) our mesmers dps went all the way to 10 000, 12 000… That’s how confusion works. Confusion mesmers are also really good to have in the ice fractal against the last boss (he spams AoE), Cliffside fractal (boss spams AoE). There are dungeon bosses that wipe conditions though.

Mirta.5029:

1. How would magic find be different from heavy, light and medium corrupted orrian, dredge and knight armor sets when you choose toughness as your main stat, power, precision as secondary? Magic find uses put out the exact same amount of damage as those people.
2. How do you know that the person does less? We had a mesmer with MF once that was putting out the most damage due to confusion, was tanking due to all the blocking abilities he had and kept on getting people up while making himself immune to AoE.

You keep talking about dmg. People choose those toughness/vitality so they can stay up longer.

And more importantly. For most class, people choose those toughness/vitality “so they can melee” and do more dmg.

And those utility rune do make a huge difference. Condition removal shout build. or 2/2/2 boon duration for guardian.

And like I said, I don’t even want to do pug with glasscannon. Now a glasscannon using mf just make it more annoying. I don’t mean it as I dont’ play with people that wear berserker. I mean glasscannon as in people wearing no vit/toughness who keep dieing(or people who should be meleeing to do more dmg and keep using range)

concerning Knight gear: People get a lot of precision, in fact you get around 2000 precision (with traits and some runes).

There is a difference to having 60% crit chance and 38% with MF gear.

- I don’t “hate” player using MF gear, i don’t ask their gear and there is a 99% chance that random guys for a pug will have something else stupid geared or just stand in every red circle.

But i agree it was a stupid decision to have it even existing outside “solo” farming mobs. (hence it shouldn’t have been gear).

laokoko.7403:

Mirta.5029:

1. How would magic find be different from heavy, light and medium corrupted orrian, dredge and knight armor sets when you choose toughness as your main stat, power, precision as secondary? Magic find uses put out the exact same amount of damage as those people.
2. How do you know that the person does less? We had a mesmer with MF once that was putting out the most damage due to confusion, was tanking due to all the blocking abilities he had and kept on getting people up while making himself immune to AoE.

You keep talking about dmg. People choose those toughness/vitality so they can stay up longer.

And more importantly. For most class, people choose those toughness/vitality “so they can melee” and do more dmg.

And those utility rune do make a huge difference. Condition removal shout build. or 2/2/2 boon duration for guardian.

And like I said, I don’t even want to do pug with glasscannon. Now a glasscannon using mf just make it more annoying. I don’t mean it as I dont’ play with people that wear berserker. I mean glasscannon as in people wearing no vit/toughness who keep dieing.

People can compensate glass-cannony gear with their skills and stats (having skills with block and immunity helps a lot). I do understand your concern, it’s just weird for me that people hate a certain gear type so much. The funny thing is that most of the time they don’t even notice that a person is wearing it. Though if the person accidentally ends up telling that he is wearing it… Ugh hell galore.

I’m curious.. where does that extra 150% critical damage in the example above come from?

It may just be early and I may just be overlooking the obvious..

Go read – Confessions of a Magic Find Leech – further down the page. Will tell you everything you need to know.

Gimping yourself in a group with MF is leeching from the group, it’s totally and utterly selfish.

Kandrick.8054:

Go read – Confessions of a Magic Find Leech – further down the page. Will tell you everything you need to know.

Gimping yourself in a group with MF is leeching from the group, it’s totally and utterly selfish.

you can use MF gear and not gimp the team. It’s also about your skills and build.

Mirta.5029:

Kandrick.8054:

Go read – Confessions of a Magic Find Leech – further down the page. Will tell you everything you need to know.

Gimping yourself in a group with MF is leeching from the group, it’s totally and utterly selfish.

you can use MF gear and not gimp the team. It’s also about your skills and build.

No, No you can’t.

Mirta.5029:

People can compensate glass-cannony gear with their skills and stats (having skills with block and immunity helps a lot). I do understand your concern, it’s just weird for me that people hate a certain gear type so much. The funny thing is that most of the time they don’t even notice that a person is wearing it. Though if the person accidentally ends up telling that he is wearing it… Ugh hell galore.

Of course it is hard to notice if people is wearing it or not. Since most of the time “noob” is what determine if the dungeon run goes smoothly. And you have to take in consideration class choice and weapon choice.

But I know for a fact, I notice a difference if I’m wearing MF gear or not. I know I won’t be able to remove condition as easily. I see I take more dmg. I see I deal less dmg with those number popping up.

I mean, do you not notice you take more dmg, you dont’ do as much dmg, and you don’t have those rune utility?

Kandrick.8054:

Mirta.5029:

Kandrick.8054:

Go read – Confessions of a Magic Find Leech – further down the page. Will tell you everything you need to know.

Gimping yourself in a group with MF is leeching from the group, it’s totally and utterly selfish.

you can use MF gear and not gimp the team. It’s also about your skills and build.

No, No you can’t.

yes you can. This isn’t even an argument. You can go for cond damage and mf find. You can do mixed builds. You can substitute the lack of vitality with countless block, immunity and dodge skills. You can do as well as any other party member. That’s why people with MF gear tend not to be noticed UNLESS they tell people that they’re wearing it.

laokoko.7403:

Of course it is hard to notice if people is wearing it or not. Since most of the time “noob” is what determine if the dungeon run goes smoothly. And you have to take in consideration class choice and weapon choice.

But I know for a fact, I notice a difference if I’m wearing MF gear or not. I know I won’t be able to remove condition as easily. I see I take more dmg. I see I deal less dmg with those number popping up.

I mean, do you not notice you take more dmg, you dont’ do as much dmg, and you don’t have those rune utility?

the swing should be about 100 damage points either way. Yes you would notice it on yourself, but would you notice it in a group. Do bosses suddenly take 10 times longer to kill?

With dungeons relying on teamwork for success (sometimes), Magic Find is the only stat that is completely selfish and doesn’t help the team in any way.

Budg.3064:

With dungeons relying on teamwork for success (sometimes), Magic Find is the only stat that is completely selfish and doesn’t help the team in any way.

but it doesn’t gimp the team in any way either.

You are stacking a stat that adds absolutely nothing to the group mechanic. ANY other stat would add to the group, be it the overall health pool, damage, mitigation, whatever.

People can add what they want, it is their game to play how they wish. Doesn’t change the fact it is a selfish way to play though.

What you are looking for is justification of your playstyle. I don’t think you will find it.

Kandrick.8054:

You are stacking a stat that adds absolutely nothing to the group mechanic. ANY other stat would add to the group, be it the overall health pool, damage, mitigation, whatever.

People can add what they want, it is their game to play how they wish. Doesn’t change the fact it is a selfish way to play though.

What you are looking for is justification of your playstyle. I don’t think you will find it.

You’re being selfish by thinking that other people are selfish. Does the health pool matter if the person doesn’t go down due to their utility skills? MF users do nothing to hurt other people.
I play a condition, vitality type of a necro. This does not even affect me. But I know MF users. They’re pretty good and keep the team alive.

It lowers your viability in battle by a lot, my Warrior in Magic find does 6k damage with my normal i do 10k

Also it is a mask for Anet to hide bad loot drops and poor rewards..

with 140% magic find i see zero difference in drop rates, drop types and special loots compared to 0% magic find (i actually see better drops with 0%)

It needs to go..

Mirta.5029:

Budg.3064:

With dungeons relying on teamwork for success (sometimes), Magic Find is the only stat that is completely selfish and doesn’t help the team in any way.

but it doesn’t gimp the team in any way either.

If the person using MF gear is able to keep up with the rest of the team and not provide a hinderance then yes, MF would not be gimping them. However, we’re all human and are prone to mistakes. Those extra stats in place of MF may be the only thing keeping you in the fight. If the player with MF gear is not able enough to contribute equally then they are indeed gimping the team, which is the more likely scenario due to the lack of defensive stats.

Mirta.5029:

Budg.3064:

With dungeons relying on teamwork for success (sometimes), Magic Find is the only stat that is completely selfish and doesn’t help the team in any way.

but it doesn’t gimp the team in any way either.

Yes it does. As said ANY other stat will help the group.

Lets say you forego vitality as you think that affects nobody else other than yourself. Aggro is calculated on a combination of your stats, you gimped yourself and so get less aggro than someone that hasn’t, they are taking your aggro, you gimped them. Just as one example.

Every single stat aids the group with the exception of MF.

Mirta.5029:

Just been on “Current Topic Poll: Mid-Jan. 2013” and to the question of “Would you prefer if Magic Find was removed from the game completely?” 37 people answered “yes”.
my question is why?
Now my reasons why it is an okay build and okay mechanic.
1. The person wearing magic find sacrifices a stat like vitality or toughness. They still have the same amount of power and precision as a typical glass cannon. They still put out a lot of damage on dungeon bosses and certainly do not injure the team more than a glass cannon does.
2.They have double the chance to get good items. That’s it. A person with magic find would barely get more rewards in one dungeon run. In a week of just running dungeons they would probably end up having more loot than an average player.
What I’m saying is that magic find works, but it doesn’t give mountains of items everyday for people wearing them and in no way does it affect people that don’t wear them, so again, why is it hated so much?

I said no. I would rather they fix it once and for all. MF in the open world is completely useless, it makes nothing but grey bones drop. It doesn’t work on chests or bags. It does in the open world the opposite of what it should do. I would like them to fix it so that it works properly once and for all.

In dungeons it causes people to have harder times surviving and some people hate this and would like to have perfect 15 minute runs without issue. I say change the gear so that it has the proper scores on the gear with the magic find especially when dealing with exotics.

It needs lots of fixing.

Mirta.5029:

the swing should be about 100 damage points either way. Yes you would notice it on yourself, but would you notice it in a group. Do bosses suddenly take 10 times longer to kill?

It is probably more trash mob I’m worrying. Since it determine weather you die or rally.

I haven’t seen it mentioned here specifically so I’ll respond to this, again, in another MF thread. You mentioned being confused around seeing it in the poll and the number of people that want to do away with MF. Have you noticed how many threads themselves there are on MF? I responded to two yesterday and here we are again.

MF was implemented to give players a risk/reward mechanic to play with. The dynamic is you put yourself at risk (gimp yourself), and to the extent you gimp yourself, you realize an increased chance of finding loot. Simple. It has nothing to do with gimping yourself specifically in terms of either damage or survivability stats; same difference as they are stats that are significant in terms of player performance. Again, that’s the whole point of the risk factor that then rewards a player.

And, that’s fine in a single player game. The problem with MF only occurs in group activity. Then, if you are running MF, you’ve gimped not just yourself, but your entire group. No theoretical difference in skill, or traits, or builds, or armor class can make up for the fact that you’ve gimped yourself and now your group in the hope of getting higher rewards. And that is where most of the uproar comes from. You are essentially being rewarded more for contributing less to a group activity.

Usually, the threads revolve around player skill compensating for the stats. The problem is we know nothing of the player skill, it’s hypothetical, we do know about the gimping, it’s built into the very reason MF exists.

There’s really no answer to the problem other than removing it from gear. That’s what the arch-MF game D3 has done with the introduction of paragon levels. It will replace it on gear over time through a hard cap on MF awarded through the paragon leveling. MF removed from gear…problem solved.

I can’t believe people still defend this selfish MF stat. I have no problem with it out in the open world heck even I have a set, but when it comes to dungeons if I see you with a sigil of luck you’re going out.

Magic Find creates an interesting choice of sacrificing personal power in favor of more/better loot.

However this choice becomes anti-social in a group environment where others depend and rely on your performance.

That said, I think Magic Find can work, but not as a stat on gear. Imo it works as:
-A Magic Find Booster
-A Superior Rune Set
-A Sigil of Luck
-A Food Buff

Generally I’d draw the line in that sacrificing raw, essential stats is not ok, but sacrificing procs or similar is ok.

If you guys are talking about running mid-to high level fractals, whatever.

If not…

Fart noises. Seriously.

Everyone has the right to be greedy in a game but at the expence of others isnt right.
I dont think anyone takes well carrying someone he doesnt know through a dungeon.
Wanna run mf?sure do it with your buddies or find an mf group.
Just dont expect the rest of the community to accept you in theyr party with something that doesnt work.

I hate magic find like many of you because its a selfish stat that takes away from the group power, not to mention means that the user has more chance to fall on his kitty than if he were wearing ‘proper’ armour.

But what about if MF was tweaked so that the entire party would feel its affects? It would certainly become more useful to the group. Providing you were able to see that the user was using MF then you would have a choice as a group whether or not the extra MF would matter. For instance in the Dredge fractal id jump at the chance to gain someone elses MF (although would never use myself).

Also what about allowing Sigil of Luck stacks to be independent of any other stacks, and save when going into a dungeon. This way the player could build up their MF outside of the dungeon before swapping to a better weapon inside to help the group. This would certainly encourage events to be done outside the dungeon.

Just a couple of ideas. Many people moan about ikssues on these forums but few give ideas as to how to fix a problem

Kandrick.8054:

Go read – Confessions of a Magic Find Leech – further down the page. Will tell you everything you need to know.

Gimping yourself in a group with MF is leeching from the group, it’s totally and utterly selfish.

You believe that confession? That’s no more than an anti-MF user trolling.

My main exotics on my ele are PVT. Then I have a rare MF set. I don’t use MF sigil/weapon or jewelry.

As long as I’m not dying (which I rarely ever do w/ MF set on) I’m actually contributing MORE to the team than with my PVT armor.

I use my PVT on harder bosses, WvW, or when I kite like in AC path2.

Thereon.3495:

I hate magic find like many of you because its a selfish stat that takes away from the group power, not to mention means that the user has more chance to fall on his kitty than if he were wearing ‘proper’ armour.

But what about if MF was tweaked so that the entire party would feel its affects? It would certainly become more useful to the group. Providing you were able to see that the user was using MF then you would have a choice as a group whether or not the extra MF would matter. For instance in the Dredge fractal id jump at the chance to gain someone elses MF (although would never use myself).

Also what about allowing Sigil of Luck stacks to be independent of any other stacks, and save when going into a dungeon. This way the player could build up their MF outside of the dungeon before swapping to a better weapon inside to help the group. This would certainly encourage events to be done outside the dungeon.

Just a couple of ideas. Many people moan about ikssues on these forums but few give ideas as to how to fix a problem

Before they decided to remove it from gear, D3 tried sharing it amongst the party. The outcome here would likely be the same as it was there. There was a public outcry and the outcry then revolved around people who contributed more MF and were being rewarded less. Same underlying dynamic. It’s a logical thing to consider as a solution, but I would strongly recommend that sharing not be implemented as it will create, essentially, the same problem. If you don’t want to do away with MF entirely, I think if MF can exist independent of gear, the problem will largely go away. There are a number of ways to do this, but I would prefer that it simply goes away. The loot system in the game itself should create the desired experience of reward for playing the game.

@Ethics – I read it in the same way as you but it does contain the relevant arguments for and against MF gear.

As for contributing more to the team and not dying, read back in the thread I already answered this.

Hate is a strong word, so I will just say I dislike Magic Find for pretty much the same reasons as everyone else.

You are basically being rewarded for being selfish. So while everyone is pulling 100% in the group, you are being rewarded for contributing less than they are. Which in turn, seems completely wrong and goes against everything GW2 is trying to achieve. Community is what they have claimed this game is about, yet they have a mechanic that rewards you more than others for being selfish and hindering your group. Sorry but that doesn’t scream community teamwork to me.

As well, it’s yet another lottery thing. There is no guarantee that you’ll get better loot. You just have a “chance” at getting better loot. So naturally you’re gimping your group so you can have a chance to get better loot. Yep, that is totally something that helps build a community.

Magic Find has always been a selfish stat. In any game, not just GW2. You are sacrificing your maximum potential and gimping your group for your own selfish needs. It goes against everything GW2 stands for and is completely unneeded.

Seriously, unless you’re talking about running fractals, this issue is just a strawman drummed up by cranky WoW players who are stuck on the rotten old idea of “gear score” (which was sort of understandable in high level raiding) in a situation that doesn’t call for it and then using the (insert biased media outlet) tactic of spinning it to be “unfair” and “greedy”, which of course pulls on our heart-strings as we’re a generally helpful and friendly bunch.

What’s next? Telling some dude he can’t come to your AC story run because he’s only level 30 and wearing blues? As long as he’s not wearing MF!

Lighten up.

All group content in this game is phone it in easy anyway, let’s face it. People wearing loads of MF gear tend to be longer term players that ran whatever it is you’re doing 50+ times already.

As long as the person isn’t dying, I don’t care.

The mechanic itself is dumb though, sacrificing stats for better drops. That shouldn’t even be an option, so people wouldn’t feel like they had to take it. “Hey instead of playing normally, leave your helmet and leg slot empty, mobs will drop more stuff!”. It’s silly. Also made worse by the slave wages the game pays out with actual drops, making people feel like they need to gimp their stats to get any semblance of decent ones.

Dante.1508:

with 140% magic find i see zero difference in drop rates, drop types and special loots compared to 0% magic find (i actually see better drops with 0%)

Well I disagree on that. People did research and it does work. Just not that fast. On average a person with MF gear will gather more loot in a week than a person without it. However it does not mean that in a single dungeon run they’ll get more loot than a person without.

Yes it does. As said ANY other stat will help the group.

Lets say you forego vitality as you think that affects nobody else other than yourself. Aggro is calculated on a combination of your stats, you gimped yourself and so get less aggro than someone that hasn’t, they are taking your aggro, you gimped them. Just as one example.

Every single stat aids the group with the exception of MF.

Zogyark.4597:

I can’t believe people still defend this selfish MF stat.

Thereon.3495:

I hate magic find like many of you because its a selfish stat

I’ve seen guardians with toughness almost never taking aggro, I’ve seen people with vitality going down. If you put out enough damage the boss will aggro you and good players can survive with MF gear if their utilities are done right. It’s a lot about skill really. I did do a deal with my friends that wear MF and never go down in dungeons – at the end of the dungeon they’ll have to say that they have been wearing MF. If a person is useful in MF and do better than the group or about the same as the group saying that they’re being selfish is well… Selfish.

And, that’s fine in a single player game. The problem with MF only occurs in group activity. Then, if you are running MF, you’ve gimped not just yourself, but your entire group. No theoretical difference in skill, or traits, or builds, or armor class can make up for the fact that you’ve gimped yourself and now your group in the hope of getting higher rewards. And that is where most of the uproar comes from. You are essentially being rewarded more for contributing less to a group activity.

Usually, the threads revolve around player skill compensating for the stats. The problem is we know nothing of the player skill, it’s hypothetical, we do know about the gimping, it’s built into the very reason MF exists.

There’s really no answer to the problem other than removing it from gear.

How much you contribute though is based on how much skill you have. The same way that people can have good gear, bad stats and skills and perform far worse. You don’t tell a player that he is gimping the team because he is using the wrong stat combination or the wrong skill combination, do you? For some reason it’s always the gear, even though the gear contributes the least.

Everyone has the right to be greedy in a game but at the expence of others isnt right.
I dont think anyone takes well carrying someone he doesnt know through a dungeon.
Wanna run mf?sure do it with your buddies or find an mf group.
Just dont expect the rest of the community to accept you in theyr party with something that doesnt work.

And how would you know that the person is wearing MF if he can out-damage you and never go down unless he tells you? Would you care if that person had vitality instead but performed in the exact same way? What’ the difference?

its takes away from the group power

It doesn’t take away more than vitality and toughness does.

the user has more chance to fall on his kitty than if he were wearing ‘proper’ armour.

Well it’s a glass cannon armor. The player has the same chance to fall than any other glass armor wearer. However you can compensate with a non glass cannon build and survive fine.

But what about if MF was tweaked so that the entire party would feel its affects? It would certainly become more useful to the group. Providing you were able to see that the user was using MF then you would have a choice as a group whether or not the extra MF would matter. For instance in the Dredge fractal id jump at the chance to gain someone elses MF (although would never use myself).

this would actually work, but why would other players have the chance to get the same without sacrificing some vitality and toughness themselves? Wouldn’t it feel unfair to the MF wearer? Why not to share other stats that help players as well?

MF needs to be eliminated. Get back to teamwork and getting the goal of the event.
This MF is imho too much an exploitable issue.

2. That’s reason enough, why should someone that does less be paid more? It’s the single stat that contributes nothing to a party…

The same goes for people with vit + toughness or people with condition damage when there already are other people with condition damage in team.
We can claim that for every stat that does not directly contribute to finishing instance faster – which means everyone should run in zerker, cause most of damage is avoidable/blockable and the rest can be healed through.

Primary reason to hate mf is that its a silly old-game-design stat that doesnt have any place in any modern game.
1) MF in multiplayer games causes problems because if its not shared, then some people are considered greedy and leeches, while if its shared then anyone they are loosing out on the damage of people they provide the shared benefit, ie people without mf are considered leeches.
2) It promotes gear swapping (think d3 mid combat swapping for example)
3) In both single and multiplayer games loot is scaled around certain amount of mf anyway.

So in short – mf should not exist in any modern game.

Mirta no matter how you put it you still sacrifice a stat for the Magic Find, and in conclusion worse than the rest of your party. That your party can carry you is no excuse. If you are really that much better than your party wearing your Magic Find – Well congratulations, you are a good player. But you can be better. It is okay for you to wear Magic Find if things are smooth, but if everyone is dying and you are on your Magic Find, I don’t care that you are the only one who’s not dead. The others are. And that one stat you sacrificed could have made the difference. Magic Find needs to go because some people always wear it, and we don’t really want to check all people. We would like to assume that people are playing to their fullest, and not trying to leech on their party by wearing MF (Even if you turn out to be doing better – You are still worse statwise which means you can do even better!)

Your arguments that vitality/toughness can be sacrificed for Magic Find if you can stay alive is invalid as well. If you can stay up with no vitality/toughness, then GZ! Your build is utterly useless, and you should have went for offensive stats instead. Having defensive gear is useless if you don’t need defense. Taking Magic Find over more damage is no excuse.

I too feel that Magic Find should be thrown out of the game be it gear or buff.

You’re choosing to contribute less to your group to increase your own drops. Plain and simple. It’s disrespectful to everyone involved. And no matter what you do with MF, you could do more with something else. When you use MF in a dungeon or fractal you are saying “I am more important than the rest of you.”

If you openly state that you are wearing MF gear in a puggable dungeon and can get through it just fine, then I don’t have a problem.

If you hide it and the group is struggling, then I take issue.

Farzo.8410:

However, I think the stat is totally bull to have. We players should be rewared by using skills, building our characters in a way that increase our strenght in one way or the other, and loot drops should be given out if you managed to beat the enemy, not given some extra chance because you got a stat that increase rare loot drops, it’s just so bull in my opinion.

Well you are sacrificing a stat helping with survivability, so shouldn’t you be rewarded more for managing to survive with less toughness and survivability? In my opinion in order to have MF gear you have to accept that you’re sacrificing something and that’s why the rewards are increased.[/quote]

thats Fine for solo play but not in a group