Guild Wars 2

I see people are still using the argument that they have enough skill to outperform “optimally geared” players while wearing MF gear due to their skill. I also see people arguing that taking survivability gear is on the same level as taking MF gear. Suppose I agree (which I don’t, but that’s not the point) then the problem remains.

Even if you are elite, don’t need any defensive stats to survive because of your skill, you still underperform if you use MF gear. Simple replace exotic explorers with exotic berserkers, and your damage output increases still, while survivability remains the same. The same goes for replacing MF jewellery, runes, etc.

So yes, even in that case, you sacrifice your own, and thus your groups performance to a stat that only rewards you. That remains a fact, regardless of how skilled you are.

The argument of magic find ‘contributing less being rewarded more’ is weak. That only applies when 1. you are pugging 2. you are pugging with a selfish low IQ person that can’t weigh efficiency between ‘slight increase on drop rate which doesnt’ even apply to dungeon chests’ and ‘speed clearing the dungeon faster and smoother’. Might as well tell Anet to disable lvl 80 players from wearing Masterwork and below items or below lvl 80 gears, since people wear those too to dungeons and fare worse than exotic/rare magic find gears…So…what’s the big deal? I’d say just implement a way to check party members gears and boot ppl wearing magic find in dungeons if u want.

This is not even an issue in open world event farming because zerg is zerg and trash mob is trash mob, those groups of risen will evaporate within seconds either way doesn’t matter if ur using ur best dps gears…

Magic find is really designed for 2 scenarios, solo farming or solo exploration in the open world. It’s up to players to use them properly and not gimp themselves or their party as a whole. Even for solo play one has to weigh efficiency/speed vs the increase % of magic find. I personally won’t even bother with MF gears, only Sigils and Runes and food, those alone doubles the magic find and you don’t lose out too much stats from gears.

Stop the hate on magic find, I personally have only tried them for about 20 hrs out of my 1100 hrs of gameplay but I know there are solo farmer players out there that would get their experiences ruined if this stat was removed. It’s also ironic how some of you hate the low drop rates/high TP prices and complain RNG yet at same time want to remove magic find which would only fuel the scarcity of supply.

I will leave you with this, you are no less selfish than the MF users by wishing the entire stat to be gone simply because it is lowering ur efficiency to clear ur dungeon runs. Educate ur fellow noobs on how much more efficient the party can be and how little the MF matters in certain dungeon runs instead of just petition for MF’s removal.

TL/DR: MF stats is fine, it’s up to players to decide when/how they use it without sacrificing their own or the group’s efficiency. Don’t try to eliminate something that helps farmers bring more supply into the market simply because you were in a few bad PUGs with people using MF gears.

Orpheus.7284:

The argument of magic find ‘contributing less being rewarded more’ is weak. That only applies when 1. you are pugging 2. you are pugging with a selfish low IQ person that can’t weigh efficiency between ‘slight increase on drop rate which doesnt’ even apply to dungeon chests’ and ‘speed clearing the dungeon faster and smoother’. Might as well tell Anet to disable lvl 80 players from wearing Masterwork and below items or below lvl 80 gears, since people wear those too to dungeons and fare worse than exotic/rare magic find gears…So…what’s the big deal? I’d say just implement a way to check party members gears and boot ppl wearing magic find in dungeons if u want.

This is not even an issue in open world event farming because zerg is zerg and trash mob is trash mob, those groups of risen will evaporate within seconds either way doesn’t matter if ur using ur best dps gears…

Magic find is really designed for 2 scenarios, solo farming or solo exploration in the open world. It’s up to players to use them properly and not gimp themselves or their party as a whole. Even for solo play one has to weigh efficiency/speed vs the increase % of magic find. I personally won’t even bother with MF gears, only Sigils and Runes and food, those alone doubles the magic find and you don’t lose out too much stats from gears.

Stop the hate on magic find, I personally have only tried them for about 20 hrs out of my 1100 hrs of gameplay but I know there are solo farmer players out there that would get their experiences ruined if this stat was removed. It’s also ironic how some of you hate the low drop rates/high TP prices and complain RNG yet at same time want to remove magic find which would only fuel the scarcity of supply.

I will leave you with this, you are no less selfish than the MF users by wishing the entire stat to be gone simply because it is lowering ur efficiency to clear ur dungeon runs. Educate ur fellow noobs on how much more efficient the party can be and how little the MF matters in certain dungeon runs instead of just petition for MF’s removal.

TL/DR: MF stats is fine, it’s up to players to decide when/how they use it without sacrificing their own or the group’s efficiency. Don’t try to eliminate something that helps farmers bring more supply into the market simply because you were in a few bad PUGs with people using MF gears.

The issue is not “noobs”. I have little problem with people playing in masterwork or some random gear because they do not have the money for higher tiers yet. I have no problem with having slower runs with them, heck, I hate speedclears.
I do have a problem with MF because it encourages people that can easily get the best gear for their build to run MF instead. Some people can be “educated”, but there will always be those that will stick to it anyway, because to them the world can burn as long as they get 21 rares when they would normally get 20.

Something that I wasn’t clear on before, I’m fine with MF in solo situations, just not in groups.

If they can’t be educated, you can kick them from party. The actual stat is still not at fault, u can’t systematically ban MF from dungeons because some people like to fullclear and do those optional events…because to them, it’s fun and it makes them feel optimistic that exotics will drop more often.

It’s an issue that lies in the players, not the gear themselves. I’m beginning to get the feeling the people that hate magic find are the same group of people in favor of banning guns irl.

Edit: Okay maybe not guns. Maybe cigarettes, which many can then say “yes, exactly! and they banned smoking indoors remember! yes!” but keep in mind if they do that in this scenario they also need to create exceptions for indoor ‘smoking sections’. That’s just a lot of stuff to ask for, Anet has a bunch of other more important issues than this.

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

You’re choosing to contribute less to your group to increase your own drops. Plain and simple. It’s disrespectful to everyone involved. And no matter what you do with MF, you could do more with something else. When you use MF in a dungeon or fractal you are saying “I am more important than the rest of you.”

How is forcing yourself to perform better and survive without the survivability stats is saying “I’m more important than you” especially when you don’t get that much more than normal people? You’re taking out a survival stat and if you can survive without it and still output the same damage as everyone else then what’s the difference?

Mirta no matter how you put it you still sacrifice a stat for the Magic Find, and in conclusion worse than the rest of your party. That your party can carry you is no excuse. If you are really that much better than your party wearing your Magic Find – Well congratulations, you are a good player. But you can be better. It is okay for you to wear Magic Find if things are smooth, but if everyone is dying and you are on your Magic Find, I don’t care that you are the only one who’s not dead. The others are. And that one stat you sacrificed could have made the difference. Magic Find needs to go because some people always wear it, and we don’t really want to check all people. We would like to assume that people are playing to their fullest, and not trying to leech on their party by wearing MF (Even if you turn out to be doing better – You are still worse statwise which means you can do even better!)

Your arguments that vitality/toughness can be sacrificed for Magic Find if you can stay alive is invalid as well. If you can stay up with no vitality/toughness, then GZ! Your build is utterly useless, and you should have went for offensive stats instead. Having defensive gear is useless if you don’t need defense. Taking Magic Find over more damage is no excuse.

What if you out-damage your party? What if you get everyone up and play as a team player? How is your party carrying you exactly? The argument that you can do EVEN better even though you’re already doing the best the party could hope for is a bit selfish isn’t it? You clear a dungeon in 15 minutes, everything went completely smooth, people saved each other and the best player confesses to MF gear. Hell breaks lose. And why? Did it really affect the party that much? The only person that got affected by it is the person wearing it. Yes, they could do everything faster in Berserker gear, however if the player outperforms an average player by a lot and performs well in dungeon runs does it matter that they could perform just slightly better?

thats Fine for solo play but not in a group

Why? If you’re doing well with teamwork and out-doing an average player why is gear in a group a problem?

I see people are still using the argument that they have enough skill to outperform “optimally geared” players while wearing MF gear due to their skill. I also see people arguing that taking survivability gear is on the same level as taking MF gear. Suppose I agree (which I don’t, but that’s not the point) then the problem remains.

Even if you are elite, don’t need any defensive stats to survive because of your skill, you still underperform if you use MF gear. Simple replace exotic explorers with exotic berserkers, and your damage output increases still, while survivability remains the same. The same goes for replacing MF jewellery, runes, etc.

So yes, even in that case, you sacrifice your own, and thus your groups performance to a stat that only rewards you. That remains a fact, regardless of how skilled you are.

Berserker won’t work if you’re using condition damage as your main stat (there are still gear sets with cond damage, power and mf) and to be honest if you’re not performing worse than a player with vitality, power and condition damage why does it matter? How are you leaching exactly if all you sacrifice is survivability?

1) The third stat on all your gear is not like optional “training wheels”, and not an extra space where you can just plunk in some Magic Find and assume nothing else was really required there. To claim that it doesn’t affect your damage or survivability at all (or that of a dungeon group) is ludicrous. Never heard of Crit Damage or Condition Damage? You don’t think you could put a buffer on a few more of those close calls with Toughness or Vitality? Oh, that’s right, I forgot — you MF stackers have got it all figured out — you always put out the highest damage in every dungeon, and you never get hit either. MF players are GW2’s finest, and they never make mistakes. We should count ourselves lucky to even be in the same dungeon as you.

2) ArenaNet obviously sets drop rates with the knowledge that Magic Find is out there, potentially crammed into every piece of gear a player owns. As a result, default drop rates for everything are undoubtedly lowered for the rest of us, to compensate. Obviously I can’t prove this, but it’s naive to assume ANet don’t take it into account.

3) Why on earth should a player be rewarded for stacking a stat that essentially does nothing? Someone who’s so amazing at the game that they don’t even need a third stat clearly knows how to build a character well enough that they can be creative and think of a way to benefit from the extra — and thus, get things done faster and get more rewards from more efficient playing. A pug group who is less experienced will appreciate that kind of player even more — they don’t need someone who is intentionally bringing themselves down to their level just so they can selfishly benefit from a few more drops during a dungeon run. If you’re really so great that you never die and are pumping out mad loads of damage, then start buffing other players or try and take some of the heat off whoever currently has boss aggro. Surely you can think of a few ways to do that.

I might be okay with Magic Find if it were restricted solely to food or accessories, or something that equalized its potential across more players. When you start seeing people with “Magic Find” builds, though, you simply haven’t integrated a good feature into the game. You’re basically telling people that there’s no reason to develop your character past mediocre, and that even the most skilled players wouldn’t benefit from the full range of tools available to them.

I’ve played mmo’s for 10 years. When I started crafting I discovered magic find, and I truly was baffled.

Give up stats for some dubious loot chance %? Uh, no. The concept was just too counter to my ideas of character development.

The concept of rewarding for gimping also eludes me. By that logic I should get better drops for just taking my pants off.

Magic Find gear is what I make to level and then salvage.

Im a dinosaur, but players should be rewarded for playing to maximum potential, and rewarded equally for doing the content, not some cheesy sideline stat.

All arguments aside, it come down to one thing. You sacrifice a stat that influences combat for one that influences nothing but minor loot roll %. To me, bringing that to a group is simply contributing less, no matter how you spin it.

This is, to me, a buff stat that should be confined to foods and banners only.

Kandrick.8054:

@Ethics – I read it in the same way as you but it does contain the relevant arguments for and against MF gear.

As for contributing more to the team and not dying, read back in the thread I already answered this.

Okay, I read it. My MF set gives power, precision, MF. My PVT, obviously power, vitatlity, toughness.

Yes that person is taking more aggro, however I’m doing more damage thanks to the extra precision.

Do always run with stat food on? Do you always run with potions for whatever you’re fighting? Do you have your build perfectly set up so you can swap your weapons/attuenments to make use of your sigils?

I guarantee you 90% of the people arguing against MF don’t. I understand your argument that MF stat ALONE doesn’t contribute to the group, but in a game of anti-min/maxing you have to ask if that really matters.

“I guarantee you 90% of the people arguing against MF don’t”

Made up statistics are never a valid argument.

If there were a stat that did nothing but give a % of spawning a Rainbow Clown Wig, you probably wouldn’t want to run with people who stacked it over a passive combat influencing stat.. but it seems to be ok to run with MF, that influences combat no more than said Clown wig would. I don’t get it.

Because it’s a very selfish mechanic. I’ve got no issue with someone using omnoms, but running full MF gear(usually rares or less) in Fractals/Dungeons…yea no.

If you want to farm an event or something in Orr, go ahead, but don’t waste my time.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

“I guarantee you 90% of the people arguing against MF don’t”

Made up statistics are never a valid argument.

If there were a stat that did nothing but give a % of spawning a Rainbow Clown Wig, you probably wouldn’t want to run with people who stacked it over a passive combat influencing stat.. but it seems to be ok to run with MF, that influences combat no more than said Clown wig would. I don’t get it.

This is great! Thanks. It made me realize that all the power of a reasoned argument often falls on deaf ears, but a powerful metaphor or image can be game changing. From now on I don’t want to run with those stacking % chance of spawning a Rainbow Clown Wig. (Though it might be very cool to see. I can imagine it sparkling or glistening ever so tastefully.)

it doesnt add anything to the game and only makes running dungeons frustrating

Mirta.5029:

Just been on “Current Topic Poll: Mid-Jan. 2013” and to the question of “Would you prefer if Magic Find was removed from the game completely?” 37 people answered “yes”. my question is why?

A WHOLE 37! Clearly, it’s a majority opinion and not just an obsessive crusade by a few forum warriors.

I can boil down the “I don’t like MF” argument into 4 simple bullet points.

1. It’s not “fun”.
2. It’s selfish and the people using it are leeches.
3. You could have contributed more if you were wearing another gear set.
4. It could be implemented better.

#1,2, and 4 are pure opinion. #3 isn’t but MF gear makes such a small impact either way that it’s pretty much impossible to argue that it’s important enough to matter.

That pretty much covers it.

This is ridiculous. I understand the reasonably hatred for a bad in your group who refuses to get any better and just argues. I want to punch them through the monitor like anyone else would, but the “dilemma” caused by MF is negligible and mostly imagined.

I might give a kitten about MF if that content was actually hard. With the current level of content, if a group can’t get through a dungeon because one guy is wearing MF gear, that group doesn’t deserve to get through the dungeon period. I (at least above average) in MF gear do not need to carry people through the dungeon in the standard exotic min/max bling just because they aren’t good enough to pull their own weight. Anyone complaining about this idea that the MF is the main source of the run failing runs the risk of looking like a whiner and a scrub for not realizing that there are probably much larger fail factors.

It’s not uncommon to find the guy raging about MF isn’t the best player in the group.

As I see it:
-using mf makes you ~66% as effective as non-mf
-using non-exotic items makes you 60-90% as effective as exotic
-being a poor player makes you 20-50% as effective as professional
-combining a few: being a mediocre player and using masterwork items is 40% as effective as exotic pro
I get the impression everyone that is anti-mf assigns all of these handicaps to mf builds.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

“I guarantee you 90% of the people arguing against MF don’t”

Made up statistics are never a valid argument.

If there were a stat that did nothing but give a % of spawning a Rainbow Clown Wig, you probably wouldn’t want to run with people who stacked it over a passive combat influencing stat.. but it seems to be ok to run with MF, that influences combat no more than said Clown wig would. I don’t get it.

So you ding me for making up a statistic to prove my point, and then you counter that by making up a skill to prove your point. Nice work.

If the person was not dying, attacking bosses/mobs that are acceptable to be attacked, and the run felt like it were going okay compared to other PUG runs I’ve been in, I don’t care if they said they stack the % to rainbow cloud fart, I would still want them in my group.

Mystic.5934:

As I see it:
-using mf makes you ~66% as effective as non-mf
-using non-exotic items makes you 60-90% as effective as exotic
-being a poor player makes you 20-50% as effective as professional
-combining a few: being a mediocre player and using masterwork items is 40% as effective as exotic pro
I get the impression everyone that is anti-mf assigns all of these handicaps to mf builds.

Nope, only the first one would apply for me whatever the actual percentage is. MF exists as a risk/reward mechanic where you increase your chance of reward by gimping yourself to the extent you give up meaningful stats that affect player performance. That there are many factors that affect group performance should not excuse a factor which obviously, by definition, affects group performance.

Any given player’s skill is a complete hypothetical in a MF discussion, the MF gimp is based on an actual reduction in player stats. In a group encounter of any significance gimping yourself is by definition gimping the group. The salt in the wound is that you are then rewarded more for contributing less.

As most of this post is about other people, that’s what I’m talking about. everyone seems to not care less what they themselves use.
What I was getting at: in a group encounter there are many ways to contribute less, some of them are far more gimping than mf gear. yet mf gear seems to get all the blame.
For me, if a group isn’t doing well, I tend to assume they suck. not their gear sucks. If a player is good enough, they can run a dungeon naked better than fully equipped sucky player. Should the naked player that’s pulling you through the dungeon really have to suffer you getting as much loot as they do?

As the Charr would say quite eloquently:

“It is just STUPID!”

A lot of the MF peoples’ argument seems to be that you can still use MF and be “good enough”. An example of why this is wrong: say you have 5 people doing dungeon runs, and 2 are using MF gear. As a result, the runs take 15 minutes instead of 12. Sure, you could argue that 15 minutes is good enough (only a 3 minute difference, after all), but it adds up. After an hour, you have done 4 runs. If all 5 players were using optimal gear, you would have done 5 runs. As a result, the 3 players contributing the most have gotten 20% less loot, and the 2 contributing less than their full potential got more than they otherwise would have. See the problem? Yes you still finished the run, but your decrease in efficiency is still hurting your teammates.

Your absolute effectiveness with your MF gear does not matter, only your relative efficiency compared to using real gear. You could have been the best person on your team, even in your MF gear, but you would have been even better in other gear. That difference is costing your teammates loot. Getting more loot at the expense of your teammates is selfish; asking you to perform as best you are able is not.

Out of all of these threads, I still have yet to see proof that the MF stat is failing groups. The risk factor is compensated by the player’s skill level and that’s what I witness every day I pug for dungeon runs. If someone isn’t doing a good job, it’s 99.9% of the time because of their incompetence to play the game.

The game mechanics are more action oriented, and therefor require more skills than stats to complete. That is exactly why the MF stat works just fine.

To argue against skill level is to set yourself up as some elitist who expects every player to play exactly like you do. This game is meant for players to be largely diverse in stats and play style and still be able to complete goals together.

Goals being completed in certain ways and for certain time-frames, well that’s just personal opinions that require players to communicate and compromise more than arguing and raging.

I already posted in other MF threads. I only hate MF when it’s group play. When you’re soloing the open world or found a way to farm a dungeon solo, feel free to wear your MF gears.

Blackmoon.6837:

The game mechanics are more action oriented, and therefor require more skills than stats to complete. That is exactly why the MF stat works just fine.

skill level is relative and doesn’t have hard data whilst comparing MF vs Toughness and +Critical Damage will actually give you the numbers.

Blackmoon.6837:

Out of all of these threads, I still have yet to see proof that the MF stat is failing groups. The risk factor is compensated by the player’s skill level and that’s what I witness every day I pug for dungeon runs. If someone isn’t doing a good job, it’s 99.9% of the time because of their incompetence to play the game.

The game mechanics are more action oriented, and therefor require more skills than stats to complete. That is exactly why the MF stat works just fine.

On a 35% crit chance (quite low), the crit damage from Berserker’s on just armor and jewelry gives a 14% average damage increase. This bonus increases the higher the crit chance is. A 55% crit chance has a 20.7% increase from it.
Do you understand what that means? A group running full Berserker’s instead of full Explorer’s will be outputting enough damage that there’s effectively a sixth person there.
And that’s not even counting the Power.

No level of skill, no matter what, can cause you to deal that much damage in Explorer’s, because it’s your damage in Explorer’s, except more.

To me MF is self defeating. You use MF to get better gear but in “harder” events you keep using that MF for better drops. In the end you JUST use MF for better drops that you will never use.

alcopaul.2156:

skill level is relative and doesn’t have hard data whilst comparing MF vs Toughness and +Critical Damage will actually give you the numbers.

That’s your problem. You’re assuming that the hard data is what determines every single group run. It doesn’t and that’s because not every single run plays out the exact same way.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

On a 35% crit chance (quite low), the crit damage from Berserker’s on just armor and jewelry gives a 14% average damage increase. This bonus increases the higher the crit chance is. A 55% crit chance has a 20.7% increase from it.
Do you understand what that means? A group running full Berserker’s instead of full Explorer’s will be outputting enough damage that there’s effectively a sixth person there.
And that’s not even counting the Power.

No level of skill, no matter what, can cause you to deal that much damage in Explorer’s, because it’s your damage in Explorer’s, except more.

Again, you’re taking the assumption that everyone is going to stand around and be on auto-attack for every single moment they’re in the run. That’s not how the game works and if you play it that way, then I would think you’re defeating the purpose of what Anet set out to do.

Blackmoon.6837:

alcopaul.2156:

skill level is relative and doesn’t have hard data whilst comparing MF vs Toughness and +Critical Damage will actually give you the numbers.

That’s your problem. You’re assuming that the hard data is what determines every single group run. It doesn’t and that’s because not every single run plays out the exact same way.

Numbers are numbers. Hard data are hard data. The fact is that you could’ve gotten an armor that boosts your chance to survive or to kill but you chose to have something to increase the chance of good drops. If A is numerically inferior to B, there’s no way to deny that. It is you who are making the excuse and raising the “skill level” card, which has no exact way to measure. i can counter your “skill level” card though – do you know how exactly the aggro works? prolly the one who dies regularly had a bad luck on mob aggro?

To each their own. I have no business complaining about my party members using MF gear (a rarity)-even if I am the only one in the party using non-MF gear. I don’t like telling people how they should play or enjoy the game-feels whiny, envious, and elitist of me, quite honestly (I realize not everyone that opposes MF gear is whiny, so please don’t feel alluded to.)

Magic Find gear is always a trade-off of reducing other stats for MF stats. This has always been the way on all MMO type games.

Diablo 3 recently did it right by having the players MF contribute to the overall group’s MF so everyone shared the same MF chance.

This is really how it should be done.

MF hate is really a forum thing. You don’t really see it ingame.

Blackmoon.6837:

Out of all of these threads, I still have yet to see proof that the MF stat is failing groups. The risk factor is compensated by the player’s skill level and that’s what I witness every day I pug for dungeon runs. If someone isn’t doing a good job, it’s 99.9% of the time because of their incompetence to play the game.

The game mechanics are more action oriented, and therefor require more skills than stats to complete. That is exactly why the MF stat works just fine.

To argue against skill level is to set yourself up as some elitist who expects every player to play exactly like you do. This game is meant for players to be largely diverse in stats and play style and still be able to complete goals together.

Goals being completed in certain ways and for certain time-frames, well that’s just personal opinions that require players to communicate and compromise more than arguing and raging.

Very sensible and open-minded post. I wholly concur.

Blackmoon.6837:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

On a 35% crit chance (quite low), the crit damage from Berserker’s on just armor and jewelry gives a 14% average damage increase. This bonus increases the higher the crit chance is. A 55% crit chance has a 20.7% increase from it.
Do you understand what that means? A group running full Berserker’s instead of full Explorer’s will be outputting enough damage that there’s effectively a sixth person there.
And that’s not even counting the Power.

No level of skill, no matter what, can cause you to deal that much damage in Explorer’s, because it’s your damage in Explorer’s, except more.

Again, you’re taking the assumption that everyone is going to stand around and be on auto-attack for every single moment they’re in the run. That’s not how the game works and if you play it that way, then I would think you’re defeating the purpose of what Anet set out to do.

Of course they won’t be.
However, every single time they DO attack, which obviously will happen since you need to attack to kill the enemies, you do MORE damage. Plain and simple.
And the more damage you deal, the faster enemies die.
And the faster the enemies die, the less they can hurt you, and the faster you get your reward.

No matter what your skill level is, having more damage-increasing stats increases your damage.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

No matter what your skill level is, having more damage-increasing stats increases your damage.

But damage is not everything-there is boon duration, healing power, vitality, toughness, etc. In other words, if MF is “wrong” because it “gimps” on player’s total damage, then many other gear is also “wrong”-which means you are actually forcing your preferred gear on other players who may think otherwise.

I know Magi is better (for me) than MF gear, but it certainly isn’t any more “powerful”; Explorer gear is actually MORE damaging.

In short, play and let play (no offense intended.)

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

No matter what your skill level is, having more damage-increasing stats increases your damage.

But damage is not everything-there is boon duration, healing power, vitality, toughness, etc. In other words, if MF is “wrong” because it “gimps” on player’s total damage, then many other gear is also “wrong”-which means you are actually forcing your preferred gear on other players who may think otherwise.

I know Magi is better (for me) than MF gear, but it certainly isn’t any more “powerful”; Explorer gear is actually MORE damaging.

In short, play and let play (no offense intended.)

Where do I say that those other stats aren’t useful?
Those other stats have combat advantages. They keep you in the fight, they improve you with boons, yadda yadda.
I am NOT saying damage is the only thing that matters.
But comparing Explorer’s directly to Berserker’s, no matter how you look at it, you will be better, and more useful, in combat with Berserker’s than with Explorer’s.

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

No matter what your skill level is, having more damage-increasing stats increases your damage.

But damage is not everything-there is boon duration, healing power, vitality, toughness, etc. In other words, if MF is “wrong” because it “gimps” on player’s total damage, then many other gear is also “wrong”-which means you are actually forcing your preferred gear on other players who may think otherwise.

I know Magi is better (for me) than MF gear, but it certainly isn’t any more “powerful”; Explorer gear is actually MORE damaging.

In short, play and let play (no offense intended.)

Boon duration (increases the time for offense/defense boons)
Vitality (increases survivability = constant dps)
Healing Power (Increases heals/survivability = constant dps)
Toughness(increases survivability = constant dps)

Tell me how useless they are

gimmethegepgun.1284:

No matter what your skill level is, having more damage-increasing stats increases your damage.

But higher skill level means you contribute more than lower skill levels, so shouldn’t you be rewarded for that instead of your gear? I would whole-heartedly endorse an update to give loot proportional to your participation. my mf set would give me as much participation as my pvp set

what I don’t get: why hate on mf users but not on masterwork users or Shaman’s users or people who lack skills. all 3 of those alternatives are more detrimental to a party than mf (and probably more common).

Mystic.5934:

what I don’t get: why hate on mf users but not on masterwork users or Shaman’s users or people who lack skills. all 3 of those alternatives are more detrimental to a party than mf (and probably more common).

Masterwork users aren’t hated as much because they may well not have been able to afford Exotics yet, while someone using Exotic Explorer’s obviously could, and then chose to torch their stats for money.

My only argument for MF gear is that it is flippin impossible to get a Vial of Cendensed Mist Essense, so every bit really helps.

Other than that, how often are you killing mobs in dungeons? In most explorer instances I’ve been in, I’ve killed maybe a dozen or two after running past everything else? MF works so much better in the open world, and almost not at all in a dungeon.

Katai.6240:

My only argument for MF gear is that it is flippin impossible to get a Vial of Cendensed Mist Essense, so every bit really helps.

Other than that, how often are you killing mobs in dungeons? In most explorer instances I’ve been in, I’ve killed maybe a dozen or two after running past everything else? MF works so much better in the open world, and almost not at all in a dungeon.

well it depends on a run type. I always search for a “normal” run even stating that. Speedrunning feels wrong to me in a way that there’s always going to be a teammate that dies and has to try multiple times, so I prefer going on a patient trip of killing things

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mystic.5934:

what I don’t get: why hate on mf users but not on masterwork users or Shaman’s users or people who lack skills. all 3 of those alternatives are more detrimental to a party than mf (and probably more common).

Masterwork users aren’t hated as much because they may well not have been able to afford Exotics yet, while someone using Exotic Explorer’s obviously could, and then chose to torch their stats for money.

But they are equally as weakened. would you really see that 2 people in your group have less stats than is theoretically possible and boot the mf user but not the masterwork user?

A thought occurred:
anti-mf people have been arguing that mf gear makes you weaker than non-mf gear, regardless of other factors
pro-mf people have been arguing that gear choice is only a factor in overall effectiveness and shouldn’t be the focus of the issue
am I right?
If so, they aren’t the same! I feel no one is actually disagreeing on any points/facts. Just which step in the line of thought they are stuck at.

Mystic.5934:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mystic.5934:

what I don’t get: why hate on mf users but not on masterwork users or Shaman’s users or people who lack skills. all 3 of those alternatives are more detrimental to a party than mf (and probably more common).

Masterwork users aren’t hated as much because they may well not have been able to afford Exotics yet, while someone using Exotic Explorer’s obviously could, and then chose to torch their stats for money.

But they are equally as weakened. would you really see that 2 people in your group have less stats than is theoretically possible and boot the mf user but not the masterwork user?

A thought occurred:
anti-mf people have been arguing that mf gear makes you weaker than non-mf gear, regardless of other factors
pro-mf people have been arguing that gear choice is only a factor in overall effectiveness and shouldn’t be the focus of the issue
am I right?
If so, they aren’t the same! I feel no one is actually disagreeing on any points/facts. Just which step in the line of thought they are stuck at.

Yes, I’d boot the MF user for being a selfish kitten while the Masterwork user can stay because their gear is poor because they don’t have money.
And that certainly doesn’t seem like the argument the pro-MFers are using, they seem to be claiming that the gear difference is irrelevant. A minimum 14% damage bonus is far from irrelevant.

@Mirta.5029: To answer your question. It’s a selfish stat.

I’ve read through most of your posts in this thread and it doesnt matter what you say, in the end MF gimps you. It doesnt matter if you can survive without the survival stats, you still gimp your character, there is always another stat you can get instead of MF to boost your group.

If you dont need survival stats to survive you pick up more dps stats, not MF stats. Since MF doesnt benefit the group the slightest bit. Also if you are good at surviving without the survival stats and chose not to take them anyways over MF gear you are gimping your group, since if you were to wield the survival set, you would have a higher chance of holding aggro, thus helping your groups with your “immortal” bun. Or is it just that you survive better with a MF set because you never get aggro, because your toughness stats are too low and your damage is weak?

And regarding the Mastercraft vs MF users in a group. The MC user would bring more to the table than the MF user. Their stats would be lower than a Exo geared player, but not to the extent of a MF set. All the MC stats would be worth something, but the MF stat just rips valuble stat points from the gear.

SneakyErvin.3056:

@Mirta.5029: To answer your question. It’s a selfish stat.

I’ve read through most of your posts in this thread and it doesnt matter what you say, in the end MF gimps you. It doesnt matter if you can survive without the survival stats, you still gimp your character, there is always another stat you can get instead of MF to boost your group.

If you dont need survival stats to survive you pick up more dps stats, not MF stats. Since MF doesnt benefit the group the slightest bit. Also if you are good at surviving without the survival stats and chose not to take them anyways over MF gear you are gimping your group, since if you were to wield the survival set, you would have a higher chance of holding aggro, thus helping your groups with your “immortal” bun. Or is it just that you survive better with a MF set because you never get aggro, because your toughness stats are too low and your damage is weak?

And regarding the Mastercraft vs MF users in a group. The MC user would bring more to the table than the MF user. Their stats would be lower than a Exo geared player, but not to the extent of a MF set. All the MC stats would be worth something, but the MF stat just rips valuble stat points from the gear.

Nope, an MF user, like I said, was TANKING the boss, meaning – holding aggro. This game is more about skill than anything. A skilled MF player brings a lot to the table, so why the hate when you wouldn’t notice the difference?
MC stats are worth something, but it’s 3 stats in low quantities, versus a stat that doesn’t help the team, but 2 stats that are high. A MC user would output less damage, not more.

masterwork is only slightly better than mf.
mf gear is about 66% weaker than non-mf
masterwork is around 75% weaker than exotic (I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but I’ll look them up right now and get back to you)

Mirta.5029:

SneakyErvin.3056:

@Mirta.5029: To answer your question. It’s a selfish stat.

I’ve read through most of your posts in this thread and it doesnt matter what you say, in the end MF gimps you. It doesnt matter if you can survive without the survival stats, you still gimp your character, there is always another stat you can get instead of MF to boost your group.

If you dont need survival stats to survive you pick up more dps stats, not MF stats. Since MF doesnt benefit the group the slightest bit. Also if you are good at surviving without the survival stats and chose not to take them anyways over MF gear you are gimping your group, since if you were to wield the survival set, you would have a higher chance of holding aggro, thus helping your groups with your “immortal” bun. Or is it just that you survive better with a MF set because you never get aggro, because your toughness stats are too low and your damage is weak?

And regarding the Mastercraft vs MF users in a group. The MC user would bring more to the table than the MF user. Their stats would be lower than a Exo geared player, but not to the extent of a MF set. All the MC stats would be worth something, but the MF stat just rips valuble stat points from the gear.

Nope, an MF user, like I said, was TANKING the boss, meaning – holding aggro. This game is more about skill than anything. A skilled MF player brings a lot to the table, so why the hate when you wouldn’t notice the difference?
MC stats are worth something, but it’s 3 stats in low quantities, versus a stat that doesn’t help the team, but 2 stats that are high. A MC user would output less damage, not more.

Because they’d be worth MORE to the group with Berserker’s, but instead chose to make everyone do more work so they alone MIGHT get more money.

exactly what I was looking for:
Junk Gray N/A N/A
Basic White 1-80 100%
Fine Blue 1-80 125%
Masterwork Green 14-80 135%
Rare Yellow 35-80 145%
Exotic Orange 62-80 165%
Ascended Pink 80 ca. 175%
Legendary Purple 80 165%

135/165*100% = masterwork is 81% as effective as exotic

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mirta.5029:

SneakyErvin.3056:

@Mirta.5029: To answer your question. It’s a selfish stat.

I’ve read through most of your posts in this thread and it doesnt matter what you say, in the end MF gimps you. It doesnt matter if you can survive without the survival stats, you still gimp your character, there is always another stat you can get instead of MF to boost your group.

If you dont need survival stats to survive you pick up more dps stats, not MF stats. Since MF doesnt benefit the group the slightest bit. Also if you are good at surviving without the survival stats and chose not to take them anyways over MF gear you are gimping your group, since if you were to wield the survival set, you would have a higher chance of holding aggro, thus helping your groups with your “immortal” bun. Or is it just that you survive better with a MF set because you never get aggro, because your toughness stats are too low and your damage is weak?

And regarding the Mastercraft vs MF users in a group. The MC user would bring more to the table than the MF user. Their stats would be lower than a Exo geared player, but not to the extent of a MF set. All the MC stats would be worth something, but the MF stat just rips valuble stat points from the gear.

Nope, an MF user, like I said, was TANKING the boss, meaning – holding aggro. This game is more about skill than anything. A skilled MF player brings a lot to the table, so why the hate when you wouldn’t notice the difference?
MC stats are worth something, but it’s 3 stats in low quantities, versus a stat that doesn’t help the team, but 2 stats that are high. A MC user would output less damage, not more.

Because they’d be worth MORE to the group with Berserker’s, but instead chose to make everyone do more work so they alone MIGHT get more money.

MF is the second highest damager after Berserker. Meaning that to a group with berserker’s gear (if you don’t die) you should be worth more than a person with tank gear, because if they output less damage doesn’t that mean that they do LESS work?

Mirta.5029:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mirta.5029:

SneakyErvin.3056:

@Mirta.5029: To answer your question. It’s a selfish stat.

I’ve read through most of your posts in this thread and it doesnt matter what you say, in the end MF gimps you. It doesnt matter if you can survive without the survival stats, you still gimp your character, there is always another stat you can get instead of MF to boost your group.

If you dont need survival stats to survive you pick up more dps stats, not MF stats. Since MF doesnt benefit the group the slightest bit. Also if you are good at surviving without the survival stats and chose not to take them anyways over MF gear you are gimping your group, since if you were to wield the survival set, you would have a higher chance of holding aggro, thus helping your groups with your “immortal” bun. Or is it just that you survive better with a MF set because you never get aggro, because your toughness stats are too low and your damage is weak?

And regarding the Mastercraft vs MF users in a group. The MC user would bring more to the table than the MF user. Their stats would be lower than a Exo geared player, but not to the extent of a MF set. All the MC stats would be worth something, but the MF stat just rips valuble stat points from the gear.

Nope, an MF user, like I said, was TANKING the boss, meaning – holding aggro. This game is more about skill than anything. A skilled MF player brings a lot to the table, so why the hate when you wouldn’t notice the difference?
MC stats are worth something, but it’s 3 stats in low quantities, versus a stat that doesn’t help the team, but 2 stats that are high. A MC user would output less damage, not more.

Because they’d be worth MORE to the group with Berserker’s, but instead chose to make everyone do more work so they alone MIGHT get more money.

MF is the second highest damager after Berserker. Meaning that to a group with berserker’s gear (if you don’t die) you should be worth more than a person with tank gear, because if they output less damage doesn’t that mean that they do LESS work?

Actually, it’s third, behind full Knights (jewelry has more Precision), and Knight’s has more armor, so les dying, less healing needed, more time damaging.
And no, because tank gear is a SIDEGRADE, which means that it has a different purpose than damage gear, whereas MF gear (not Giver’s though) is a strict DOWNGRADE from either Berserker’s or Knight’s.

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

You’re choosing to contribute less to your group to increase your own drops. Plain and simple. It’s disrespectful to everyone involved. And no matter what you do with MF, you could do more with something else. When you use MF in a dungeon or fractal you are saying “I am more important than the rest of you.”

actually, telling people what gear they can and cant use is saying i am more important than the rest of you.

Rikimeru Tokesbudz.3816:

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

You’re choosing to contribute less to your group to increase your own drops. Plain and simple. It’s disrespectful to everyone involved. And no matter what you do with MF, you could do more with something else. When you use MF in a dungeon or fractal you are saying “I am more important than the rest of you.”

actually, telling people what gear they can and cant use is saying i am more important than the rest of you.

No one in the thread has the power to tell other users which gear to use so no one is saying I am more important than you. The discussion is about a concept, MF. It’s a discussion that I witnessed play out in D3 several months ago. MF, because it affects group performance in terms of the hard numbers (not the hypothetical user skill), is an issue for players in group-oriented games and especially in an MMO. MF is a game design element that wasn’t given a lot of thought in terms of it’s presence in group-oriented play and consequently it causes the same problem in other games. When D3 processed the issue several months ago the outcome was to remove it from gear. I believe that is the best approach to MF in this game. We are simply discussing an issue not talking about issues of personal worth.