Guild Wars 2

Let’s sum up the conclusions this thread as brought me to :
- Every MF user is better than non-MF user because they are inherently as skilled as Wethospu and Powerr put together.
- Going out of our way to contribute less and be rewarded more is okay, anyone who disagrees is an elitist min-maxer prick.
- Sometimes, 200>210 .
- When running group content nobody should care about what I wear because group content is all about myself and myself alone.

Actually you know, I never ask people to link items but this thread and its stupid arguments actually convinced me to insta-boot every MF user from my parties.

Turial.1293:

SneakyErvin.3056:

IMO they need to add an inspect option that shows a players MF%.

Ok, while you did state IYO, that is fine but I will disagree with you, it will just add tensions between players. Never has this brought people closer together and it always creates arguments between players and stat-obsessed players. A good theory of what will happen is that people will just carry 2 sets of armor, probably the same look and they will let you inspect, head inside the dungeon and 5 mins in just switch over to MF. Why? Because the only way to get a party is by either paying out for whatever the meta happens to be at the time and by lying about it other times. Inspecting gear does not foster community.

I’ve never said anything about gear inspection, just an inspect that tells you what a players total MF is. Something you can do off and on during your dungeon run if you like. If you dont want MF people in your group it should be your right to see who has it and who doesnt. It’s not more selfish or creates more gaps between players than MF currently does. Heck they could just add a MF% number at your character portrait in the window, give it a buff icon. No need to inspect and it would show liars in an instant as soon as they switch gear.

@xCrusadentx.2784: A good job that could have been better and within your power if you got proper gear for your spec. You said you supported your group by whatever was in your power. Still you field a gimp set that brings less than what is within your power. If you want to run a dungeon with MF gear then do it will a full group of MF people, bet your time vs reward will be well worth it.

Not even in the open world is MF worth it. To make it worthwhile, you need enough to make up for the lack of killing. Still killing speed is better because MF doesnt increase the drop chance, it just increases the chance the item will have higher quality if the mob drops something.

I personally believe Magic Find is not a stat that should be on gear.
Gear is supposed to determine your ability to fight.
MF should be something for Sigils/Runes and the like, not base stats for gear.

Someone who brings MF without telling their party is doing less, yet getting more out of it.

No one likes greedy leeches.

That’s why.

As I see it, MF is the kind of stat that should exist only in consumables, boosters, guild bonus effects and other effects that are not part of the gear, as it doesn’t affect combat.
Also, dungeons should have an effect on all party members that gives them MF, and goes down over time, and up as they defeat enemies (higher with veterans champions and legendary enemies), so people skip less and kill more, beign rewarded for killing faster more than simply reaching the chest faster.

IMO everybody on my team should do exactly as I say. They need to be 100% driven towards completing the dungeon. I get kitten off when somebody needs to use the bathroom. That’s dungeon grinding time! Wth, you have a rare weapon! Kick! You need to go grind to get an exotic. Everybody better be running berserker gear so that we get the maximum amount of damage. You better take all those defensive utilites off nub, L2P!

See, I can twist words too and make the anti-MF people seem crazy as well, it does absolutely nothing for discussion.

To clarify, I don’t think MF should be in the game but don’t get uspet with the people that use it. Hate the game, not the player. =)

Ethics.4519:

See, I can twist words too […]

Good idea.
What is the max of MF one could have?
If groupmember with MF gear do not have that max: kick him from the group for beeing not equipped good enough! L2P! ;-)

SneakyErvin.3056:

Xavori.3768:

RoRo.8270:

I’m still having a hard time figuring out how people can defend magic find gear in fractals and dungeons. They intentionally get a full set knowing it only benefits them while reducing their survivability and damage thus increasing the time to complete a run.

What difference in time? You mean the fact my MF warrior is more efficient than the average ‘other’ warrior you could get?

On my MF warrior in head to toe MF exotics, it’s likely you’ll complete most dungeons faster than on my hammer-shouts warrior who is also head to toe exotics because my MF warrior has much better DPS and doesn’t need the extra toughness and vitality my tank has for most dungeons.

My MF warrior also likely has better stats than the average AC pug or 20 and below fractal player because she is head to toe exotics rather than mixing in some yellows or even greens and blues.

I’m also a very solid player who knows all the dungeons I run her in. You’d lose more time by taking an average player versus me.

Now sure, high level fractals or some of the Arah paths, no MF. But when a normal party is such overkill for the difficulty of the rest of the dungeons, why not maximize the return on time invested (and yes, I’d happily run AC explore in a party of 5 warriors in exotic MF gear)?

You think highly of yourself. I can safely say, I’m not suprised you wear MF kind when you go on boasting like that about your own skill.

Modesty goes a long way.

A long way where?

I wear MF gear on that warrior specifically because my skill as a player makes it practical. I’m good at the game. Using MF gear lets me get higher rewards to go with my higher skill. I’m a big proponent that people should benefit from working smarter, not harder (I suspect it’s an American culture thing).

In the previous anti-MF gear threads, it was made abundantly clear that people just don’t like someone else getting more reward for the same amount of time spent on a task. It isn’t at all about efficiency or how much you actually contribute to the group for most. If it was, every AC run group would consist of nothing but level 80 warriors in full exotic zerker gear using max damage consumables.

However, most players make it perfectly clear they’re okay dragging along sub-80 people, or people who have non-exotic gear, or people who haven’t run the dungeon so many times they have every encounter and boss memorized. After all, it is a game. We’re playing to have fun, not tweak out the last .001% of productivity. So that whole argument about not contributing as much to the party…ya…completely hollow. It’s a weak attempt to try to rationalize what is truly an emotional, not rational, response.

This is also why I’m completely okay with people announcing they want no MF gear in groups. I have almost 20 alts. Only one has MF gear. If they don’t want MF, I’m totally okay with playing one of my others. It’s about fun, and I get that there are people who have that purely emotional reaction to the idea that someone might be getting more digital goodies than they are.

But while there are some who have that reaction, most just don’t care. Every single one of these threads has just a few people who go ballistic about MF gear. The vast majority of forum participants, who make up a tiny subset of the GW2 population anyway, just don’t care. Most people aren’t going to obsess about shaving 30 seconds off a Howling King fight, especially since that amount of time doesn’t even exceed the variation caused by the random number generator’s contribution to fights. They’re not going to stress that another player is trying to maximize his loot in order to pay for his altaholic problem.

My suggestion. If you do care about not wanting MF in your group, just say so up front. Most players will respect that, and those that won’t likely have far worse problems they bring with them than what gear they’re wearing. I’d suggest giving serious thought to why it is you care so much about MF gear when you obviously don’t care about all the other ways in which players “hurt” the group’s productivity.

Well, I would suggest that except serious thought doesn’t really have much place in a game. Moar funz. Less serious.

Xavori.3768:

I’m a big proponent that people should benefit from working smarter, not harder (I suspect it’s an American culture thing).

Great, so why are you working stupider, and harder, by taking Explorer’s and not Berserker’s?
Taking Berserker’s lessens how much work you need to do, and is thus the smart thing to do.

Xavori.3768:

However, most players make it perfectly clear they’re okay dragging along sub-80 people, or people who have non-exotic gear, or people who haven’t run the dungeon so many times they have every encounter and boss memorized. After all, it is a game. We’re playing to have fun, not tweak out the last .001% of productivity. So that whole argument about not contributing as much to the party…ya…completely hollow. It’s a weak attempt to try to rationalize what is truly an emotional, not rational, response.

Maybe it is, but its still very valid. When I am doing a dungeon with other people, i want them to be TRYING. That afk guy is gonna get kicked from my party. Somebody in full MF gear is afk for 33% of the time. I love taking sub-80 people to most dungeons, because they are often even more motivated then the rest. The people in MF gear are being so extremly selfish that i dont want them anywhere near my party.

Point is, its safe to assume that being in full MF instead of other gear is going to gimp your dps with ~30%. If everybody did that, the run would take 30% longer. Now include wipes because you couldnt kill X fast enough, people leaving because its taking to long, ect. I estimate the average dungeon with people in MF gear would take about 50% longer, depending on the diffuculty.

Long story short: It might be a emotional reaction, but taking people that are trying to the fullest, even when not level 80 or geared in full exotics, is in no way comparable to people in full MF gear. Intentionally being a liability to your group while you can also just equip your normal gear, is for solo players.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Xavori.3768:

I’m a big proponent that people should benefit from working smarter, not harder (I suspect it’s an American culture thing).

Great, so why are you working stupider, and harder, by taking Explorer’s and not Berserker’s?
Taking Berserker’s lessens how much work you need to do, and is thus the smart thing to do.

I play exactly the same in zerker’s and explorer’s on that warrior. It’s why I switched in the first place. Neither gear gives me any extra survival beyond my own skill, and the time saved with the extra ~6% DPS can be more than lost to something like a graveling scavenger deciding to leapomnonnom at a moment when I’m out of endurance.

If I was going to switch out of explorers on that toon, I’d go knights rather than zerker just to open up more content I’d feel okay using her on. However, since I have a whole pile o’ other toons, there isn’t much point. In the meantime, she pays for more character slots and the gear those alts use, and it only eats up about an hour a day to feed my alt habit.

Oh, she pays for WvW too. At least until someone convinces the devs that smart WvW play should be able to pay for itself…

@Xavori.3768: But it isnt practical. The benefit you get from MF towards drops doesnt match the loss of other stats. MF brings very little, you get almost the same amount of loot without it. The bonus is minimal when the loot revolves around RNG. Mostly you still have a 95% fail chance on getting anything above the ordinary.

So all you do is increase that minimal chance to a slightly higher chance, which is still a very minimal chance. It also doesnt effect chests, which makes it even more worthless and totaly pointless on boss fights.

Shatters.7315:

Xavori.3768:

However, most players make it perfectly clear they’re okay dragging along sub-80 people, or people who have non-exotic gear, or people who haven’t run the dungeon so many times they have every encounter and boss memorized. After all, it is a game. We’re playing to have fun, not tweak out the last .001% of productivity. So that whole argument about not contributing as much to the party…ya…completely hollow. It’s a weak attempt to try to rationalize what is truly an emotional, not rational, response.

Maybe it is, but its still very valid. When I am doing a dungeon with other people, i want them to be TRYING. That afk guy is gonna get kicked from my party. Somebody in full MF gear is afk for 33% of the time. I love taking sub-80 people to most dungeons, because they are often even more motivated then the rest. The people in MF gear are being so extremly selfish that i dont want them anywhere near my party.

Point is, its safe to assume that being in full MF instead of other gear is going to gimp your dps with ~30%. If everybody did that, the run would take 30% longer. Now include wipes because you couldnt kill X fast enough, people leaving because its taking to long, ect. I estimate the average dungeon with people in MF gear would take about 50% longer, depending on the diffuculty.

Long story short: It might be a emotional reaction, but taking people that are trying to the fullest, even when not level 80 or geared in full exotics, is in no way comparable to people in full MF gear. Intentionally being a liability to your group while you can also just equip your normal gear, is for solo players.

Uh. Zerker is 315 power/224 precision/16% crit damage. Explorer’s is 224 power/224 precision. The difference in 16% crit damage works out to about 2% DPS. The difference of 91 power is more complicated to work out because it’s multiplied by weapon and skill coefficient, but based on many dead golems in the mists, (knight’s versus zerker), it’s about 3% DPS.

In my case specifically, I lose a few more percentage with MF runes, but I get back some with ascended gear. The total difference between what my warrior could do in max DPS versus where her gear is now is ~6%.

This is nowhere near 30%. I suspect this is because I used spreadsheets and testing and you used colonic extraction in coming up with the numbers.

Xavori.3768:

Shatters.7315:

Xavori.3768:

However, most players make it perfectly clear they’re okay dragging along sub-80 people, or people who have non-exotic gear, or people who haven’t run the dungeon so many times they have every encounter and boss memorized. After all, it is a game. We’re playing to have fun, not tweak out the last .001% of productivity. So that whole argument about not contributing as much to the party…ya…completely hollow. It’s a weak attempt to try to rationalize what is truly an emotional, not rational, response.

Maybe it is, but its still very valid. When I am doing a dungeon with other people, i want them to be TRYING. That afk guy is gonna get kicked from my party. Somebody in full MF gear is afk for 33% of the time. I love taking sub-80 people to most dungeons, because they are often even more motivated then the rest. The people in MF gear are being so extremly selfish that i dont want them anywhere near my party.

Point is, its safe to assume that being in full MF instead of other gear is going to gimp your dps with ~30%. If everybody did that, the run would take 30% longer. Now include wipes because you couldnt kill X fast enough, people leaving because its taking to long, ect. I estimate the average dungeon with people in MF gear would take about 50% longer, depending on the diffuculty.

Long story short: It might be a emotional reaction, but taking people that are trying to the fullest, even when not level 80 or geared in full exotics, is in no way comparable to people in full MF gear. Intentionally being a liability to your group while you can also just equip your normal gear, is for solo players.

Uh. Zerker is 315 power/224 precision/16% crit damage. Explorer’s is 224 power/224 precision. The difference in 16% crit damage works out to about 2% DPS. The difference of 91 power is more complicated to work out because it’s multiplied by weapon and skill coefficient, but based on many dead golems in the mists, (knight’s versus zerker), it’s about 3% DPS.

In my case specifically, I lose a few more percentage with MF runes, but I get back some with ascended gear. The total difference between what my warrior could do in max DPS versus where her gear is now is ~6%.

This is nowhere near 30%. I suspect this is because I used spreadsheets and testing and you used colonic extraction in coming up with the numbers.

That’s because you didn’t include jewelry, which has FAR more Crit Damage involved with it. There’s 16% on armor, but 32% on the jewelry.
With the jewels included, on a meager 35% crit rate, it’s a 14% average increase in damage from just the crits, which increases as crit rate rises.

SneakyErvin.3056:

@Xavori.3768: But it isnt practical. The benefit you get from MF towards drops doesnt match the loss of other stats. MF brings very little, you get almost the same amount of loot without it. The bonus is minimal when the loot revolves around RNG. Mostly you still have a 95% fail chance on getting anything above the ordinary.

So all you do is increase that minimal chance to a slightly higher chance, which is still a very minimal chance. It also doesnt effect chests, which makes it even more worthless and totaly pointless on boss fights.

.2% is still greater than .1%.

Because I only run her on easy dungeons, there is not noticeable effect on time that is greater than what a couple bad dice rolls from the RNG could do. In fact, the RNG plays a much greater role in how long an AC run takes an average group than pretty much anything else. All it takes is for an excessive number of scavengers to spawn, or a boss to get lucky and fire off the big charged attack right after someone was forced to burn all their endurance, and you’ve added 2-3 minutes minimum to the fight by dealing with a downed teammate during which neither the downed player nor the person saving them is doing any damage at all.

Again, tho, I get that people have this emotional reaction, and I’m totally okay with that. Just make sure to post “no MF” in gw2lfg or when you’re calling in Lion’s Arch, and I’ll run a non-MF toon. (unless it’s AC or fractal 10 in which case I’ll just wait for another group…those are so easy there’s no point in running them if you’re not maximizing the return on your time)

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Xavori.3768:

Shatters.7315:

Xavori.3768:

However, most players make it perfectly clear they’re okay dragging along sub-80 people, or people who have non-exotic gear, or people who haven’t run the dungeon so many times they have every encounter and boss memorized. After all, it is a game. We’re playing to have fun, not tweak out the last .001% of productivity. So that whole argument about not contributing as much to the party…ya…completely hollow. It’s a weak attempt to try to rationalize what is truly an emotional, not rational, response.

Maybe it is, but its still very valid. When I am doing a dungeon with other people, i want them to be TRYING. That afk guy is gonna get kicked from my party. Somebody in full MF gear is afk for 33% of the time. I love taking sub-80 people to most dungeons, because they are often even more motivated then the rest. The people in MF gear are being so extremly selfish that i dont want them anywhere near my party.

Point is, its safe to assume that being in full MF instead of other gear is going to gimp your dps with ~30%. If everybody did that, the run would take 30% longer. Now include wipes because you couldnt kill X fast enough, people leaving because its taking to long, ect. I estimate the average dungeon with people in MF gear would take about 50% longer, depending on the diffuculty.

Long story short: It might be a emotional reaction, but taking people that are trying to the fullest, even when not level 80 or geared in full exotics, is in no way comparable to people in full MF gear. Intentionally being a liability to your group while you can also just equip your normal gear, is for solo players.

Uh. Zerker is 315 power/224 precision/16% crit damage. Explorer’s is 224 power/224 precision. The difference in 16% crit damage works out to about 2% DPS. The difference of 91 power is more complicated to work out because it’s multiplied by weapon and skill coefficient, but based on many dead golems in the mists, (knight’s versus zerker), it’s about 3% DPS.

In my case specifically, I lose a few more percentage with MF runes, but I get back some with ascended gear. The total difference between what my warrior could do in max DPS versus where her gear is now is ~6%.

This is nowhere near 30%. I suspect this is because I used spreadsheets and testing and you used colonic extraction in coming up with the numbers.

That’s because you didn’t include jewelry, which has FAR more Crit Damage involved with it. There’s 16% on armor, but 32% on the jewelry.
With the jewels included, on a meager 35% crit rate, it’s a 14% average increase in damage from just the crits, which increases as crit rate rises.

You’re still not saving enough time to get beyond a bad dice roll tho unless you manage to hit the perfect all zerker all level 80 all skilled player group. And, I suspect you’ll waste more time trying to put that group together than you’d save just going with the people who are ready to go right now.

And this is ultimately why I put so little credence in the max efficiency argument that anti-MF people put out there. If they truly cared about max efficiency, they’d factor in how much DPS is lost because someone isn’t running a 30/30 power/precision build, how much is lost by having someone in rare gear instead of exotic gear, how much is lost by letting a non level 80 run with them, etc.

As soon as you allow any of those factors to be acceptable, but not MF, you’re not really caring about efficiency. Efficiency is just the rational front you’re putting on an emotional argument.

Of course, emotion is cool. The positive emotions from having fun are the entire point of playing a game.

Heck, my whole reason for MF gear ultimately breaks down into emotional calculus. I enjoy building alts, WvW, and trying new stuff out. Those things cost gold. I do not enjoy grinding for gold. So to maximize the amount of time doing stuff I enjoy, I minimize the amount of time spent doing stuff I don’t.

Of course, if you just took gold out of the game completely, and I could just have whatever I wanted as soon as I wanted it, I’d get bored and go do something else, just like most other people would.

People are weird like that.

Maybe because it’s not about the efficiency, but the reasonable expectation that people try to do the best they can.
Someone who isn’t level 80 didn’t choose to depower themselves, someone who isn’t in exotics likely couldn’t afford it.
But when someone decides to nerf themselves with MF in a group, they are explicitly making the decision to kitten their group for absolutely no gain for anyone but themselves.

Numbers aside, I think people hate it because it has a non-observable / verifiable effect. For example, if I increase my vitality by 10 points I get 100 health. 10 points in critical damage I do 10% more critical damage. I can see those. If I increase my magic find by 10 points it does what, exactly?

For two days I farmed an hour a day for corrupted lodestones with 175 magic find and got nothing, I certainly didn’t earn 2.75 times the money during that time (or even close). The third day I ran with 0 magic find and got 2 in the first 15 minutes.

Xavori.3768:

And this is ultimately why I put so little credence in the max efficiency argument that anti-MF people put out there.

Too bad that it’s the MF crowd that puts the efficiency argument. I don’t care how efficient the other players in my group are – I do care whether they want to contribute to the group, or only to their purses.

TooBz.3065:

Numbers aside, I think people hate it because it has a non-observable / verifiable effect. For example, if I increase my vitality by 10 points I get 100 health. 10 points in critical damage I do 10% more critical damage. I can see those. If I increase my magic find by 10 points it does what, exactly?

It increases your drop chance on getting better stuff by 10% (so, instead of, say, 0.01% of dropping a rare, you’d have 0.011% drop chance). At least it’s supposed to work that way, but at the moment seems to be bugged.

Xavori.3768:

SneakyErvin.3056:

@Xavori.3768: But it isnt practical. The benefit you get from MF towards drops doesnt match the loss of other stats. MF brings very little, you get almost the same amount of loot without it. The bonus is minimal when the loot revolves around RNG. Mostly you still have a 95% fail chance on getting anything above the ordinary.

So all you do is increase that minimal chance to a slightly higher chance, which is still a very minimal chance. It also doesnt effect chests, which makes it even more worthless and totaly pointless on boss fights.

.2% is still greater than .1%.

Because I only run her on easy dungeons, there is not noticeable effect on time that is greater than what a couple bad dice rolls from the RNG could do. In fact, the RNG plays a much greater role in how long an AC run takes an average group than pretty much anything else. All it takes is for an excessive number of scavengers to spawn, or a boss to get lucky and fire off the big charged attack right after someone was forced to burn all their endurance, and you’ve added 2-3 minutes minimum to the fight by dealing with a downed teammate during which neither the downed player nor the person saving them is doing any damage at all.

Again, tho, I get that people have this emotional reaction, and I’m totally okay with that. Just make sure to post “no MF” in gw2lfg or when you’re calling in Lion’s Arch, and I’ll run a non-MF toon. (unless it’s AC or fractal 10 in which case I’ll just wait for another group…those are so easy there’s no point in running them if you’re not maximizing the return on your time)

You still only get use of it on trashmobs and boss drops, most of which are skipped due to horrible loot chance in the first place (except in fractals). The chests that actually have the “good” loot is uneffected, rendering it useless on boss kills more or less, since the good loot comes from the chest, not the boss.

And your difference in useful stats is much greater than the few % you mention. Since you have 5 tinkets, 1 weapon set and a full armor. At 80 that is (in top gear) 75-85% crit damage and a load of power if you compare zerker to MF gear, both with runes/jewels and food.

Then compared to a condi user you lose out on alot of crit chance, condi and survivability if you compare a proper condi set to the MF version.

I honestly don’t know who came up with the idea that using MF makes you a leech lol, certain players want to boost their items, others want to provide the most damage possible, others wear gear to increase criticals, others use…. etc. you see my point? It is a part of the game, a valid stat, should I stop taking people that only wear bersekers? Can I conclude that they are selfish because they want to do the most damage that the foe dies before other can tag it efficiently? Can I assume they need to wear it and kill everything asap because they have no survivability or skill to last in battle? Is that what I should assume? kittening and whinging about MF is just ridiculous, if someone wants to use it then let them, chances are if they are a good player they won’t die, if they are a bad player they will die, MF does not change that. If you are pissy because they have a small increase in loot then you need to go play somewhere else.

Turial.1293:

I honestly don’t know who came up with the idea that using MF makes you a leech lol, certain players want to boost their items, others want to provide the most damage possible, others wear gear to increase criticals, others use…. etc. you see my point?

That’s because it does. If you go in with MF gear instead of Berserker, your group kills mobs slower. As a result, the other 4 players in your group gets less loot for the time spent while the MF in your gear gives you more loot instead.

By gearing up in MF instead of Berserker, you made a conscious choice that gives you more loot and gives all the other party members in your group less loot.

i love it that all i read is things about max loot, max damage, do it as fast as possible, and so on. what happend to having fun?
You have fun when playing with the right people, and i dont think it matters much what equipment they got.
Jee, its a game, just a game.

personal opinion:
Only some kids worry about loot, adults mostly just wanne have a good time.
If your a adult and worry about loot and the time it takes to do something , you are realy just a kid to 8-)

this post will probably get deleted for not contributing to the thread lol

innocens.1582:

i love it that all i read is things about max loot, max damage, do it as fast as possible, and so on. what happend to having fun?
You have fun when playing with the right people, and i dont think it matters much what equipment they got.
Jee, its a game, just a game.

personal opinion:
Only some kids worry about loot, adults mostly just wanne have a good time.
If your a adult and worry about loot and the time it takes to do something , you are realy just a kid to 8-)

this post will probably get deleted for not contributing to the thread lol

I do have a full MF set. I used it to solo farm outside instances. For party play I use something that benefits the group more. This isn’t behaving like a kid or something. This is showing some respect for my group members. And I expect them to show some respect back too.

stof.9341:

Turial.1293:

I honestly don’t know who came up with the idea that using MF makes you a leech lol, certain players want to boost their items, others want to provide the most damage possible, others wear gear to increase criticals, others use…. etc. you see my point?

That’s because it does. If you go in with MF gear instead of Berserker, your group kills mobs slower. As a result, the other 4 players in your group gets less loot for the time spent while the MF in your gear gives you more loot instead.

By gearing up in MF instead of Berserker, you made a conscious choice that gives you more loot and gives all the other party members in your group less loot.

What if I want to wear Knight’s instead of zerker because I don’t want to die as much because I don’t want to spend money on repairs? Does that make me a leech, too?

What if I just wear rare gear rather than exotic because I’m going to get dungeon gear and there’s no point in buying exotic that I’ll just replace after a week? Leech?

What if I play a tank build instead of a DPS build because I enjoy going toe to toe with every mob I come across and don’t really care how fast I kill stuff? Am I leech because I’m putting my fun over your efficiency?

I can keep going. The whole argument that you must build for DPS and must wear Berzerker gear is even worse than the don’t-wear-MF-because-efficiency argument.

I mean, if you truly believe that every party member must build for maximum DPS, must be in head to toe exotic zerker gear, and must be skilled enough to not get flattened while playing a glass cannon, then I hope you have 4 friends who believe exactly the same as you do and who play as often as you do or you’re going to spend a lot of time frustrated because the groups you end up in don’t meet your exacting standards.

Xavori.3768:

stof.9341:

Turial.1293:

I honestly don’t know who came up with the idea that using MF makes you a leech lol, certain players want to boost their items, others want to provide the most damage possible, others wear gear to increase criticals, others use…. etc. you see my point?

That’s because it does. If you go in with MF gear instead of Berserker, your group kills mobs slower. As a result, the other 4 players in your group gets less loot for the time spent while the MF in your gear gives you more loot instead.

By gearing up in MF instead of Berserker, you made a conscious choice that gives you more loot and gives all the other party members in your group less loot.

What if I want to wear Knight’s instead of zerker because I don’t want to die as much because I don’t want to spend money on repairs? Does that make me a leech, too?

What if I just wear rare gear rather than exotic because I’m going to get dungeon gear and there’s no point in buying exotic that I’ll just replace after a week? Leech?

What if I play a tank build instead of a DPS build because I enjoy going toe to toe with every mob I come across and don’t really care how fast I kill stuff? Am I leech because I’m putting my fun over your efficiency?

I can keep going. The whole argument that you must build for DPS and must wear Berzerker gear is even worse than the don’t-wear-MF-because-efficiency argument.

I mean, if you truly believe that every party member must build for maximum DPS, must be in head to toe exotic zerker gear, and must be skilled enough to not get flattened while playing a glass cannon, then I hope you have 4 friends who believe exactly the same as you do and who play as often as you do or you’re going to spend a lot of time frustrated because the groups you end up in don’t meet your exacting standards.

ehm you miss some point.
Mf is not a stats that add something to the party but only for your personal gain.
berserk gear is all about dps, but even knight gear is helpful to the party, you have power and precision for the damage, and toughness for the defense, more defense = more suvivability = Your mate have to ress you less times = MORE DPS!

MF add really nothing to the party composition, and thats the point!

@stoff,
dont worry i wont gimp your party.
i dont pug and only play with people i know.

luckely they all have the same mind set as me, we wanne have fun

I ignore magic find. I get better drops without it. Could just be luck, RNG has always been strong with me. No benefits seen here.

Xavori.3768:

What if I want to wear Knight’s instead of zerker because I don’t want to die as much because I don’t want to spend money on repairs? Does that make me a leech, too?

What if I just wear rare gear rather than exotic because I’m going to get dungeon gear and there’s no point in buying exotic that I’ll just replace after a week? Leech?

What if I play a tank build instead of a DPS build because I enjoy going toe to toe with every mob I come across and don’t really care how fast I kill stuff? Am I leech because I’m putting my fun over your efficiency?

I can keep going. The whole argument that you must build for DPS and must wear Berzerker gear is even worse than the don’t-wear-MF-because-efficiency argument.

I mean, if you truly believe that every party member must build for maximum DPS, must be in head to toe exotic zerker gear, and must be skilled enough to not get flattened while playing a glass cannon, then I hope you have 4 friends who believe exactly the same as you do and who play as often as you do or you’re going to spend a lot of time frustrated because the groups you end up in don’t meet your exacting standards.

It’s all a matter of intentions and possibilities.

You say “Sorry guys I’m not using gear type A cause I don’t want to die so I use gear B”. Well, it’s maybe a bad reason because you’d die less with gear A or not. But in the end, even if it’s for your personal gain, it’s also for the benefit of your party. If you die, you waste everyone time more than if you stay alive.

You go to dungeon in rare gear because it’s the best you got? Fine, after all, dungeons ARE made to gear up. It’s an honest reason and maybe you don’t even have the money to buy that armor. Although I should mention here that dungeons don’t really give you trinkets so you should at least put some money in a necklace and accessories. Rings can wait since you get them in Fractals. Heck, necklace can wait since you’ll get them through dailies in the next patch.

You gear for tanking and not DPS? Hey, you are actually providing your party with a very valuable service! Maybe it’s not the optimal but you made that choice in good faith.

innocens.1582:

@stoff,
dont worry i wont gimp your party.
i dont pug and only play with people i know.

luckely they all have the same mind set as me, we wanne have fun

Well then, I’m sure they’d be happy if the MF was averaged between all party members. After such a change, taking you with them to dungeons will be giving them even more benefits with absolutely no drop in contribution from you!

lol you realy dont understand ‘playing for fun’

i dont even have mf on my gear

fun is what you make with other people and it has nothing to do with drops or time taken.

Ganzo.5079:

ehm you miss some point.
Mf is not a stats that add something to the party but only for your personal gain.
berserk gear is all about dps, but even knight gear is helpful to the party, you have power and precision for the damage, and toughness for the defense, more defense = more suvivability = Your mate have to ress you less times = MORE DPS!

MF add really nothing to the party composition, and thats the point!

So everything I do must be for the good of the party?

At the end of the dungeon, should we all tally up how much loot we got and then split it evenly? I mean, if you’re upset that I take advantage of my skill as a player to allow me to still contribute greatly to groups I’m in even while wearing MF gear, then why is it okay for one person to get more loot than someone else through just random chance? If everyone is supposed to get the same rewards for doing the same task, then why not make it truly the same?

Cuz that’d be silly.

And I picked knights specifically because it’s identical to explorers except you trade toughness for magic find. By your claim, the goal is me not dying. Well….I don’t die in explorer’s gear, and I have the same power and precision as I would if I was wearing knights, and you were okay with me wearing knight’s, so you’re okay with me wearing explorer’s then, too? Again as long as I don’t die which was your ultimate goal for me.

You know, I came up with a change to MF and rewards I’d be 100% okay with, and would encourage me to switch my warrior from MF to zerker. Change dungeon rewards so that greater contribution provides greater rewards. If I do more damage, or provide more boons, or cure more conditions, etc, then I should get more rewards. That’s kinda my thought process in picking MF gear in the first place. I know my skill as a player is valuable, and I’m trying to maximize that value. If I could maximize my reward in a way that coincided with also maximizing the group’s efficiency, I’d definitely be in favor of that.

It wouldn’t even be that hard to actually implement. Just have the game track each player’s damage, healing, etc. When you get to the end where the tokens and whatnot are given, take each category and average it. Players who exceed the average in a category get their coins and tokens increased by a percentage based on how much they exceeded the average.

For example, the reward for completing a dungeon is 60 tokens. The average DPS of the party was 1000. But I did 1100. So I get an extra 6 tokens. Let’s say we had a water elementalist who provided an extra 5% healing beyond the party average, so they get 3 extra tokens. And we had a shout guardian who kept everybody covered in boons, providing 20% more boons than the average player did, so they get an extra 12 tokens. Then we had some guy who was afk half the fights, hid on ledges, etc. He was below average in everything, but he still gets his base 60 tokens so he hasn’t ‘lost’ out. Go through that with things like condition removal, crowd control, etc, and do it for both tokens and gold on the final reward.

I think that would both give skilled players the additional rewards they’re seeking while also providing everyone an incentive to play their best which I think is what the anti-MF crowd is seeking.

Xavori.3768:

Ganzo.5079:

ehm you miss some point.
Mf is not a stats that add something to the party but only for your personal gain.
berserk gear is all about dps, but even knight gear is helpful to the party, you have power and precision for the damage, and toughness for the defense, more defense = more suvivability = Your mate have to ress you less times = MORE DPS!

MF add really nothing to the party composition, and thats the point!

So everything I do must be for the good of the party?

At the end of the dungeon, should we all tally up how much loot we got and then split it evenly? I mean, if you’re upset that I take advantage of my skill as a player to allow me to still contribute greatly to groups I’m in even while wearing MF gear, then why is it okay for one person to get more loot than someone else through just random chance? If everyone is supposed to get the same rewards for doing the same task, then why not make it truly the same?

Cuz that’d be silly.

And I picked knights specifically because it’s identical to explorers except you trade toughness for magic find. By your claim, the goal is me not dying. Well….I don’t die in explorer’s gear, and I have the same power and precision as I would if I was wearing knights, and you were okay with me wearing knight’s, so you’re okay with me wearing explorer’s then, too? Again as long as I don’t die which was your ultimate goal for me.

You know, I came up with a change to MF and rewards I’d be 100% okay with, and would encourage me to switch my warrior from MF to zerker. Change dungeon rewards so that greater contribution provides greater rewards. If I do more damage, or provide more boons, or cure more conditions, etc, then I should get more rewards. That’s kinda my thought process in picking MF gear in the first place. I know my skill as a player is valuable, and I’m trying to maximize that value. If I could maximize my reward in a way that coincided with also maximizing the group’s efficiency, I’d definitely be in favor of that.

It wouldn’t even be that hard to actually implement. Just have the game track each player’s damage, healing, etc. When you get to the end where the tokens and whatnot are given, take each category and average it. Players who exceed the average in a category get their coins and tokens increased by a percentage based on how much they exceeded the average.

For example, the reward for completing a dungeon is 60 tokens. The average DPS of the party was 1000. But I did 1100. So I get an extra 6 tokens. Let’s say we had a water elementalist who provided an extra 5% healing beyond the party average, so they get 3 extra tokens. And we had a shout guardian who kept everybody covered in boons, providing 20% more boons than the average player did, so they get an extra 12 tokens. Then we had some guy who was afk half the fights, hid on ledges, etc. He was below average in everything, but he still gets his base 60 tokens so he hasn’t ‘lost’ out. Go through that with things like condition removal, crowd control, etc, and do it for both tokens and gold on the final reward.

I think that would both give skilled players the additional rewards they’re seeking while also providing everyone an incentive to play their best which I think is what the anti-MF crowd is seeking.

1) Why make a party if you equip just for your own interest.

2)You claim to be skilled, but really nothing excuse this, you trade an helpful stats, for a stat that help only your droprate.

3)Not all player have the same “skill level”, and most of the fantomatic MF users, go on dungeon, die like idiots, and make the rest of the party to lose time for ressing them, and all of this just for the sake of the droprate of one player!

As i said on this thread, if the MF value was shared by all the party members, i see no harm on using MF gear, because you trade an helpfull combat stats, for an helpfull droprate stats, and this is acceptable. But on the actual form, there IS REALLY NO EXCUSE.
Skilled or not, sometime you may die just because you have not enough vitality or toughness, or you slow your mates because you have less crit damage then the others.

Ganzo.5079:

1) Why make a party if you equip just for your own interest.

2)You claim to be skilled, but really nothing excuse this, you trade an helpful stats, for a stat that help only your droprate.

3)Not all player have the same “skill level”, and most of the fantomatic MF users, go on dungeon, die like idiots, and make the rest of the party to lose time for ressing them, and all of this just for the sake of the droprate of one player!

As i said on this thread, if the MF value was shared by all the party members, i see no harm on using MF gear, because you trade an helpfull combat stats, for an helpfull droprate stats, and this is acceptable. But on the actual form, there IS REALLY NO EXCUSE.
Skilled or not, sometime you may die just because you have not enough vitality or toughness, or you slow your mates because you have less crit damage then the others.

1) Because soloing AC isn’t possible except maybe path 2, and even then, it’d be really sketchy.

2) I trade nothing of effect. I’m wearing the equivalent of knight’s gear, but using my skill rather than stats to stay alive. More than that, even if I went zerker, it wouldn’t make a noticeable change in how long it takes to do an AC run because there are so many other variables that go into that.

3) Totally pointless complaint for magic find gear since it would be a problem regardless of what gear that player was wearing. If someone is making a dungeon run impossible to complete, you don’t need to know what gear they’re wearing to identify that fact.

More than that, on the AC and low level fractals I run my MF warrior, even bad players still have some value provided they don’t commit a cardinal sin like rezzing Deltha before a ghost wave is cleared. It takes a whole host of problems in a party before an AC run becomes impossible, and none of those would relate to what gear someone is wearing.

As for sharing magic find for an entire party…why would anyone who believes they should be rewarded more for being better ever like this? If I could have made 3.5g on an AC run, but now I’m only going to make 2.5g because no one else is willing to invent in MF gear and food, then I’m losing out because the rest of the party is leeching off of me and the fact that I can wear explorer’s and still more than carry my weight.

My suggestion was about keeping motivations for good players to play their best. Sharing MF is the exact opposite of that. Sharing is about letting the player who just sits in the corner with his autoattack get the same rewards as the player who is busting their juvenile feline off.

I’m so not interested in a game that hands out participation ribbons.

I don’ use MF gear or food. What I think would be a good idea, is to nuke MF gear, jewelry, & weapons from orbit (replace MF stat with some other stat; keep skin, oh wait, it’s not a unique skin), and increase MF food buffs.

The ANet definition of Rare or Exotic being .0001 or whatever number it is with that there RNG, fine. Bothering with MF to go from .0001 to .0002 is of no interest to me and seems absurd. Early on, I’d tried it with jewelry, gear, then I salvaged that gear and jewelry when a guild mate showed me some numbers.

After the new currency is added and the new way to buy class gift boxes (anxious to see what the heck the result actually are with the new system), MF is primed to be removed completely from jewelry, gear, & weapons. Before the: oh, i spent so much materials making MF you can’t render it obsolete position is made, I’ve played a few MMOs where content has been rendered obsolete (changed currencies, new gear, new stat customization system, combined PvE and PvP gear, etc). it’s to be expected. Plans don’t always go as expected, and change is inevitable. (WarhammerOnline & DCUO comes to mind; I bet there are many more that have obsoleted content)

Some say getting in a game early is more fun, while others wait for year 2 to avoid spending time on stuff that might be removed from the game. Enjoy the time spent either way = fun. I’d like to see MF gear be put into a large pile on the beach in Lion’s Arch and burnt. Those that contributed at least 6 units/items to the burn the MF gear event get a reward: pick which tier, of a stack (250) of a tier of Dust (crystalline, incandescence, etc). ;P

Because it doesn’t work.
Worse, it has a detrimental effect.
/thread

Xavori.3768:

Ganzo.5079:

1) Why make a party if you equip just for your own interest.

2)You claim to be skilled, but really nothing excuse this, you trade an helpful stats, for a stat that help only your droprate.

3)Not all player have the same “skill level”, and most of the fantomatic MF users, go on dungeon, die like idiots, and make the rest of the party to lose time for ressing them, and all of this just for the sake of the droprate of one player!

As i said on this thread, if the MF value was shared by all the party members, i see no harm on using MF gear, because you trade an helpfull combat stats, for an helpfull droprate stats, and this is acceptable. But on the actual form, there IS REALLY NO EXCUSE.
Skilled or not, sometime you may die just because you have not enough vitality or toughness, or you slow your mates because you have less crit damage then the others.

1) Because soloing AC isn’t possible except maybe path 2, and even then, it’d be really sketchy.

2) I trade nothing of effect. I’m wearing the equivalent of knight’s gear, but using my skill rather than stats to stay alive. More than that, even if I went zerker, it wouldn’t make a noticeable change in how long it takes to do an AC run because there are so many other variables that go into that.

3) Totally pointless complaint for magic find gear since it would be a problem regardless of what gear that player was wearing. If someone is making a dungeon run impossible to complete, you don’t need to know what gear they’re wearing to identify that fact.

More than that, on the AC and low level fractals I run my MF warrior, even bad players still have some value provided they don’t commit a cardinal sin like rezzing Deltha before a ghost wave is cleared. It takes a whole host of problems in a party before an AC run becomes impossible, and none of those would relate to what gear someone is wearing.

As for sharing magic find for an entire party…why would anyone who believes they should be rewarded more for being better ever like this? If I could have made 3.5g on an AC run, but now I’m only going to make 2.5g because no one else is willing to invent in MF gear and food, then I’m losing out because the rest of the party is leeching off of me and the fact that I can wear explorer’s and still more than carry my weight.

My suggestion was about keeping motivations for good players to play their best. Sharing MF is the exact opposite of that. Sharing is about letting the player who just sits in the corner with his autoattack get the same rewards as the player who is busting their juvenile feline off.

I’m so not interested in a game that hands out participation ribbons.

The problem with your post is that wearing mf doesn’t mean you’re a better player.

With mf gear your contributing less than you would with normal stat scheme gear that goes with your build, and yet you get more drops. So in essence, your being rewarded for being worse than you should be.

Isn’t this whole thing just common sense? I have my doubts about the people not understanding the nature of this, rather I see attempts at justifying being selfish where being a part of a team matters. People don’t like being called selfish…they get very defensive about it and it’s funny seeing the same ill reasoning come up over and over again. It’s an obvious duck.

Why is everyone talking about dungeons? Of course you’ll do better in dungeons with gear that gives better damage and survivability stats, and you’ll help the team more. However, MF is OK to use if you’re soloing, doing hearts, doing events, killing stuff, etc., and you have no-one to worry about except yourself. Personally, I have one build for dungeons and a MF build for soloing. Granted, there is not an enormous difference in drops, but I have received several rare items soloing with my MF build.

Essence Snow.3194:

Isn’t this whole thing just common sense? I have my doubts about the people not understanding the nature of this, rather I see attempts at justifying being selfish where being a part of a team matters. People don’t like being called selfikittenhey get very defensive about it and it’s funny seeing the same ill reasoning come up over and over again. It’s an obvious duck.

Nope, we get it perfectly. Here’s the part that you seem to be failing to understand:

Xavori.3768:

So that whole argument about not contributing as much to the party…ya…completely hollow. It’s a weak attempt to try to rationalize what is truly an emotional, not rational, response.

But while there are some who have that reaction, most just don’t care. Every single one of these threads has just a few people who go ballistic about MF gear. The vast majority of forum participants, who make up a tiny subset of the GW2 population anyway, just don’t care. Most people aren’t going to obsess about shaving 30 seconds off a Howling King fight, especially since that amount of time doesn’t even exceed the variation caused by the random number generator’s contribution to fights. They’re not going to stress that another player is trying to maximize his loot in order to pay for his altaholic problem.

Suggesting that MF users are selfish without at least acknowledging that, when you get down to it, your opinion is based on feelings that are at least equally selfish is completely hypocritical.

Sometimes I wear MF in a party. Occasionally, I’m not playing at my regular level and end up downed more often than usual (which is usually zero), so I flip out gear myself. So far after months and months of pugs, no one in-game has so much as mentioned MF as a problem to me in groups though… Fortunately, the in-game community is not nearly as… toxic… as the forums.

Ruby Red.4019:

I don’t hate it and it would be an okay mechanic if it actually delivered. In my experience it doesn’t and therefore it’s pretty pointless overall.

LOL

My avatar is on MF upgrades but I only had 2 exotic drops in a period of about 4 months. So don’t be upset that people use them, for all its worth – it is probably an effective placebo that makes players have a positive vibe.

Zapan.7460:

I don’ use MF gear or food. What I think would be a good idea, is to nuke MF gear, jewelry, & weapons from orbit (replace MF stat with some other stat; keep skin, oh wait, it’s not a unique skin), and increase MF food buffs.

The ANet definition of Rare or Exotic being .0001 or whatever number it is with that there RNG, fine. Bothering with MF to go from .0001 to .0002 is of no interest to me and seems absurd. Early on, I’d tried it with jewelry, gear, then I salvaged that gear and jewelry when a guild mate showed me some numbers.

After the new currency is added and the new way to buy class gift boxes (anxious to see what the heck the result actually are with the new system), MF is primed to be removed completely from jewelry, gear, & weapons. Before the: oh, i spent so much materials making MF you can’t render it obsolete position is made, I’ve played a few MMOs where content has been rendered obsolete (changed currencies, new gear, new stat customization system, combined PvE and PvP gear, etc). it’s to be expected. Plans don’t always go as expected, and change is inevitable. (WarhammerOnline & DCUO comes to mind; I bet there are many more that have obsoleted content)

Some say getting in a game early is more fun, while others wait for year 2 to avoid spending time on stuff that might be removed from the game. Enjoy the time spent either way = fun. I’d like to see MF gear be put into a large pile on the beach in Lion’s Arch and burnt. Those that contributed at least 6 units/items to the burn the MF gear event get a reward: pick which tier, of a stack (250) of a tier of Dust (crystalline, incandescence, etc). ;P

I’m not worried about my gear getting nuked. I’ve already geared a whole pile of alts, re-gearing my warrior would take me a few minutes on the trading post then a few more at a crafting table. I only have the one toon with MF, and I only use her in easy stuff. If MF went away, I’d put her in knight’s and start running higher level fractals with her which again translates into better rewards for the higher skill required for those fractals.

I’d also be okay with the food idea as it makes it one part of what I do better. Right now, if you kill the champion gravelings in AC, you get 5s. If you you the bars, you get more. The bars only cost 4s to buy, so it’s a pretty obvious investment.

Fortyniners.4096:

Why is everyone talking about dungeons? Of course you’ll do better in dungeons with gear that gives better damage and survivability stats, and you’ll help the team more. However, MF is OK to use if you’re soloing, doing hearts, doing events, killing stuff, etc., and you have no-one to worry about except yourself. Personally, I have one build for dungeons and a MF build for soloing. Granted, there is not an enormous difference in drops, but I have received several rare items soloing with my MF build.

The problem is, not everyone is so noble.
For a game so concerned with group play, putting in a selfish stat that replaces useful stats is a terrible idea.
Ways of boosting MF that don’t affect combat (boosters, guild banner) are perfectly fine, but encouraging people to be less useful to the group by design is always a bad idea.

Silentsins.3726:

Essence Snow.3194:

Isn’t this whole thing just common sense? I have my doubts about the people not understanding the nature of this, rather I see attempts at justifying being selfish where being a part of a team matters. People don’t like being called selfikittenhey get very defensive about it and it’s funny seeing the same ill reasoning come up over and over again. It’s an obvious duck.

Nope, we get it perfectly. Here’s the part that you seem to be failing to understand:

Xavori.3768:

So that whole argument about not contributing as much to the party…ya…completely hollow. It’s a weak attempt to try to rationalize what is truly an emotional, not rational, response.

But while there are some who have that reaction, most just don’t care. Every single one of these threads has just a few people who go ballistic about MF gear. The vast majority of forum participants, who make up a tiny subset of the GW2 population anyway, just don’t care. Most people aren’t going to obsess about shaving 30 seconds off a Howling King fight, especially since that amount of time doesn’t even exceed the variation caused by the random number generator’s contribution to fights. They’re not going to stress that another player is trying to maximize his loot in order to pay for his altaholic problem.

Suggesting that MF users are selfish without at least acknowledging that, when you get down to it, your opinion is based on feelings that are at least equally selfish is completely hypocritical.

Sometimes I wear MF in a party. Occasionally, I’m not playing at my regular level and end up downed more often than usual (which is usually zero), so I flip out gear myself. So far after months and months of pugs, no one in-game has so much as mentioned MF as a problem to me in groups though… Fortunately, the in-game community is not nearly as… toxic… as the forums.

The "as much* has nothing to do with the rest of the party…it only deals with the individual…they are not contributing “as much” as they could be…potential.. (compared to themselves) giving all this equal except mf. It is not an opinion that 1 is greater than 0 and that stats are contributing factors. These are not feelings…its simply math, which game mechanics are largely based on.

example taken out of context:

1)20+20+0=40…….20+20+20=60
2)20+0+30=50…….20+20+30=70
3)0+40+20=60…….20+40+20=80

In all three examples the latter is greater than the former…..why? Math! There is no possibility of the latter being lesser or equal to the prior given all other things equal. The only way to achieve that would be to enter a variable that effects the outcome. In our case here that would be individual effort. If a player chooses to play worse with better stats…then yes it’s possible, but that’s solely dependent on that factor not potential.

I’m not arguing whether I care about a party member has it in my group or not. I am arguing the fact that there is a difference that some ppl choose not, (I hope it’s choose and not fail) to see.

@Essence Snow:

The difference between me running my MF warrior in AC using MF gear and zerker is maybe 2-3 minutes off the run time. Average players are already overkill for AC’s difficulty and you don’t get linear returns as you push farther and farther into that overkill zone. If it was graphed stats versus run time, the graph would definitely start to flatten out long before we get to explorer’s/knight’s gear, let alone zerker.

One bad spawn of extra graveling scavengers costs more than 5 minutes.

Deltha bugging and needing to be lured to her death can cost an entire dungeon run up to that point if she doesn’t unbug.

A graveling scavenger deciding to nom on Hodgkins rather than the player guarding him can force a reset that costs 5 or more minutes.

Kholer being spawned with a pair of elementalists versus a pair of warriors can double the time it takes to kill him because he’s really good at tanking for them, and they hit hard and have AoE’s.

One or two sub 80 teammates costs more than 5 minutes.

One guy needing to go afk because his dog is about to piddle on the carpet is 2-3 minutes.

One gal needing to go afk because she’s about to piddle on the carpet is 5 or so minutes.

So many things cost more time than I could possibly make up by switching to zerker gear, and many of them are completely beyond the control of the players.

enemy attacks – (if)dodge – player(survive)
enemy attacks – (if)no dodge – player(death)

enemy dies – (if)wearing magic find- player(gets higher chanced loot)
enemy dies – (if)not wearing magic find – player(moans histerically that the loot in the game is crap and Anet needs to fix their loot tables and ban MF users because they suck, leech and hack)

Maybe I’m misquoting, but the above formula seems to coincide with the game. Notice how wearing MF gear is not related with being able to dodge?

Xavori.3768:

@Essence Snow:

The difference between me running my MF warrior in AC using MF gear and zerker is maybe 2-3 minutes off the run time. Average players are already overkill for AC’s difficulty and you don’t get linear returns as you push farther and farther into that overkill zone. If it was graphed stats versus run time, the graph would definitely start to flatten out long before we get to explorer’s/knight’s gear, let alone zerker.

One bad spawn of extra graveling scavengers costs more than 5 minutes.

Deltha bugging and needing to be lured to her death can cost an entire dungeon run up to that point if she doesn’t unbug.

A graveling scavenger deciding to nom on Hodgkins rather than the player guarding him can force a reset that costs 5 or more minutes.

Kholer being spawned with a pair of elementalists versus a pair of warriors can double the time it takes to kill him because he’s really good at tanking for them, and they hit hard and have AoE’s.

One or two sub 80 teammates costs more than 5 minutes.

One guy needing to go afk because his dog is about to piddle on the carpet is 2-3 minutes.

One gal needing to go afk because she’s about to piddle on the carpet is 5 or so minutes.

So many things cost more time than I could possibly make up by switching to zerker gear, and many of them are completely beyond the control of the players.

LOVE IT! Let us not forget the guys who wear Arah berserker with Twilight rage quitting because a single person was downed ~ 1-30mins to replace depending when you play and how many friends are online.

Turial.1293:

enemy attacks – (if)dodge – player(survive)
enemy attacks – (if)no dodge – player(death)

enemy dies – (if)wearing magic find- player(gets higher chanced loot)
enemy dies – (if)not wearing magic find – player(moans histerically that the loot in the game is crap and Anet needs to fix their loot tables and ban MF users because they suck, leech and hack)

Maybe I’m misquoting, but the above formula seems to coincide with the game. Notice how wearing MF gear is not related with being able to dodge?

no ok wait, No one is hacking, they are selfish ok, but they are using a mechaninc introduced by devs, and well known.
Please dont defend our point by adding HACK as counterpart, because using MF is not hack at all.

Xavori.3768:

@Essence Snow:

The difference between me running my MF warrior in AC using MF gear and zerker is maybe 2-3 minutes off the run time. Average players are already overkill for AC’s difficulty and you don’t get linear returns as you push farther and farther into that overkill zone. If it was graphed stats versus run time, the graph would definitely start to flatten out long before we get to explorer’s/knight’s gear, let alone zerker.

Ok I’ll play your game then. I’ll also use my MF set. And I’ll encourage all the others to use that MF set too. Are we looking at 2-3 minutes times 5 players more run time? 10-15 minutes more?

If everyone is in MF gear, it’s fair.

Xavori.3768:

@Essence Snow:

The difference between me running my MF warrior in AC using MF gear and zerker is maybe 2-3 minutes off the run time. Average players are already overkill for AC’s difficulty and you don’t get linear returns as you push farther and farther into that overkill zone. If it was graphed stats versus run time, the graph would definitely start to flatten out long before we get to explorer’s/knight’s gear, let alone zerker.

One bad spawn of extra graveling scavengers costs more than 5 minutes.

Deltha bugging and needing to be lured to her death can cost an entire dungeon run up to that point if she doesn’t unbug.

A graveling scavenger deciding to nom on Hodgkins rather than the player guarding him can force a reset that costs 5 or more minutes.

Kholer being spawned with a pair of elementalists versus a pair of warriors can double the time it takes to kill him because he’s really good at tanking for them, and they hit hard and have AoE’s.

One or two sub 80 teammates costs more than 5 minutes.

One guy needing to go afk because his dog is about to piddle on the carpet is 2-3 minutes.

One gal needing to go afk because she’s about to piddle on the carpet is 5 or so minutes.

So many things cost more time than I could possibly make up by switching to zerker gear, and many of them are completely beyond the control of the players.

Every one of those are external factors that have nothing to with stats. The whole deal with MF is stats. If you’d put into a simulator 2 runs with everything identical except MF, will there be a difference? Yes, there would be…that’s it…..there’s the debate…no if, ands, or buts about it. It’s yes/no, black/white, 0/1, heaven/hell…etc etc. Trying to throw in all shades of grey will not change that at it’s core it’s a yes/no issue.

Does it make a difference? Yes…no matter the amount of difference , it does make a difference. The issue revolves around not how much of a difference it makes, but that it does.

Ganzo.5079:

Turial.1293:

enemy attacks – (if)dodge – player(survive)
enemy attacks – (if)no dodge – player(death)

enemy dies – (if)wearing magic find- player(gets higher chanced loot)
enemy dies – (if)not wearing magic find – player(moans histerically that the loot in the game is crap and Anet needs to fix their loot tables and ban MF users because they suck, leech and hack)

Maybe I’m misquoting, but the above formula seems to coincide with the game. Notice how wearing MF gear is not related with being able to dodge?

no ok wait, No one is hacking, they are selfish ok, but they are using a mechaninc introduced by devs, and well known.
Please dont defend our point by adding HACK as counterpart, because using MF is not hack at all.

Face-palm
Nobody is selfish, the point I am making is that those few people who are against other people using MF gear always come out with absurd responses. I was not, under any circumstances, defending your moot point.

Turial.1293:

Ganzo.5079:

Turial.1293:

enemy attacks – (if)dodge – player(survive)
enemy attacks – (if)no dodge – player(death)

enemy dies – (if)wearing magic find- player(gets higher chanced loot)
enemy dies – (if)not wearing magic find – player(moans histerically that the loot in the game is crap and Anet needs to fix their loot tables and ban MF users because they suck, leech and hack)

Maybe I’m misquoting, but the above formula seems to coincide with the game. Notice how wearing MF gear is not related with being able to dodge?

no ok wait, No one is hacking, they are selfish ok, but they are using a mechaninc introduced by devs, and well known.
Please dont defend our point by adding HACK as counterpart, because using MF is not hack at all.

Face-palm
Nobody is selfish, the point I am making is that those few people who are against other people using MF gear always come out with absurd responses. I was not, under any circumstances, defending your moot point.

ok i read it wrong, english is not my main language. My bad.
Anyway, the funny thing is a part of this reply, is just an absurd response.

Nobody is selfish? oh ok, EXPLAIN WHY? with numbers maybe.
And how our response are so ABSURD?

Another funny thing is that all the player that are here, to defend the use of MF on dungeon, think just to be Perfect and Infallible.
Please all of you, use numbers, and not just Your ipotetical skill, to defend your point.