Guild Wars 2

Turial.1293:

Ganzo.5079:

Turial.1293:

enemy attacks – (if)dodge – player(survive)
enemy attacks – (if)no dodge – player(death)

enemy dies – (if)wearing magic find- player(gets higher chanced loot)
enemy dies – (if)not wearing magic find – player(moans histerically that the loot in the game is crap and Anet needs to fix their loot tables and ban MF users because they suck, leech and hack)

Maybe I’m misquoting, but the above formula seems to coincide with the game. Notice how wearing MF gear is not related with being able to dodge?

no ok wait, No one is hacking, they are selfish ok, but they are using a mechaninc introduced by devs, and well known.
Please dont defend our point by adding HACK as counterpart, because using MF is not hack at all.

Face-palm
Nobody is selfish, the point I am making is that those few people who are against other people using MF gear always come out with absurd responses. I was not, under any circumstances, defending your moot point.

Selfish:
1
: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one’s own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
2
: arising from concern with one’s own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act>

MF by mechanic is selfish

A thing the Pro-MF users keep bringing up is the “what if” factor, which oddly enough only applies to Non-MF groups. Like people having to go afk, miss a dodge, wipe on boss and so on.

Thing is, it applies to both types of groups and it has the same impact. However when it happens in MF group you are already at a setback, no matter how you look at it, things will be slower with one or more MF persons in group.

MF doesnt contribute to a group setup, it doesnt make you mysteriously better at avoiding other incidents. So stop assuming only bad things happen in a regular group. MF is a setback no matter what.

stof.9341:

Xavori.3768:

@Essence Snow:

The difference between me running my MF warrior in AC using MF gear and zerker is maybe 2-3 minutes off the run time. Average players are already overkill for AC’s difficulty and you don’t get linear returns as you push farther and farther into that overkill zone. If it was graphed stats versus run time, the graph would definitely start to flatten out long before we get to explorer’s/knight’s gear, let alone zerker.

Ok I’ll play your game then. I’ll also use my MF set. And I’ll encourage all the others to use that MF set too. Are we looking at 2-3 minutes times 5 players more run time? 10-15 minutes more?

If everyone is in MF gear, it’s fair.

Good point. Then start making MF only parties.

Solving this problem is inevitably the same as the skipping issue. You simply have to coordinate you groups better. It’s a community, so be social and discuss the issues before making your parties. /Solved

I’ve made many groups and I always take whoever I get, from newer players who still have things to learn down to MF users. I’ll enjoy the game either way, yet wait… I’m not opposing MF so my opinion is irrelevant, right?

If you’re really strung out about MF, then make a guild that focuses on not using it. Just take advantage of the social aspects and quit blaming your lack of effort to do so on the game’s design.

Turial.1293:

enemy attacks – (if)dodge – player(survive)
enemy attacks – (if)no dodge – player(death)

enemy dies – (if)wearing magic find- player(gets higher chanced loot)
enemy dies – (if)not wearing magic find – player(moans histerically that the loot in the game is crap and Anet needs to fix their loot tables and ban MF users because they suck, leech and hack)

Maybe I’m misquoting, but the above formula seems to coincide with the game. Notice how wearing MF gear is not related with being able to dodge?

whether you dodge or not, an mf user still sacrifices useful stats such as toughness and critical damage. this is the undeniable truth and any excuses to discredit this fact are moot.

stof.9341:

If everyone is in MF gear, it’s fair.

And yet, if everyone have MF gear, it’s just simpler to remove it from the game and upping drop tables everywhere.

Essence Snow.3194:

Turial.1293:

Ganzo.5079:

Turial.1293:

enemy attacks – (if)dodge – player(survive)
enemy attacks – (if)no dodge – player(death)

enemy dies – (if)wearing magic find- player(gets higher chanced loot)
enemy dies – (if)not wearing magic find – player(moans histerically that the loot in the game is crap and Anet needs to fix their loot tables and ban MF users because they suck, leech and hack)

Maybe I’m misquoting, but the above formula seems to coincide with the game. Notice how wearing MF gear is not related with being able to dodge?

no ok wait, No one is hacking, they are selfish ok, but they are using a mechaninc introduced by devs, and well known.
Please dont defend our point by adding HACK as counterpart, because using MF is not hack at all.

Face-palm
Nobody is selfish, the point I am making is that those few people who are against other people using MF gear always come out with absurd responses. I was not, under any circumstances, defending your moot point.

Selfish:
1
: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one’s own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
2
: arising from concern with one’s own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act>

MF by mechanic is selfish

Hmm I think of everyone kittening about not wearing “pro-berserker” and this dictionary copy-paste applies to that also. All anti-MF players here are; “seeking or concentrating on one’s own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others” – “arising from concern with one’s own welfare or advantage in disregard of others”

I think Ganzo said it best with “but they are using a mechaninc introduced by devs, and well known.” So stop crying over a game mechanic, the few minutes to spare you might make from everyone following the trend of berserkers is minuscule at best, there is not enough gimping to warrant a removal of it from the game. The numbers you speak of are not noticeable, I say you are prolly just cheesed off because someone is putting thought into getting better loot.

Turial.1293:

Hmm I think of everyone kittening about not wearing “pro-berserker” and this dictionary copy-paste applies to that also. All anti-MF players here are; “seeking or concentrating on one’s own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others” – “arising from concern with one’s own welfare or advantage in disregard of others”

This have no sense. If you are really conviced of this words, EXPLAIN WHY.

I think Ganzo said it best with “but they are using a mechaninc introduced by devs, and well known.” So stop crying over a game mechanic, the few minutes to spare you might make from everyone following the trend of berserkers is minuscule at best, there is not enough gimping to warrant a removal of it from the game. The numbers you speak of are not noticeable, I say you are prolly just cheesed off because someone is putting thought into getting better loot.

Now i said before that i read wrong that post.
Devs are just human, they can intruduce mechanics that are wrong by concept, and MF is just one of theese, and as paying customer, we have all the right to express our opinion.

For the set choice not only about berserk\knight set, every stats on the game is useful for party, but not MF.
so why someone have to Equip a “normal set” and play on party with someone that Dont use all his stats for the fight?

Now at parity of Human skill, an MF user is a BURDEN for the party compared with another player, and that’s exactly why MF is a selfish stat!

What should be done is to make it so that you can only use MF gear in a group if everyone votes to allow it. This will make MF gear users group up with other MF gear users. Then when it takes them twice as long to complete any dungeon, they’ll all whine about how it’s unfair.

Magic Find is a leeching stat. Plain and simple. You want to use it on your own or with guildies, that’s fine. But using it with others so that they have to carry you in a dungeon is downright rude and ignorant.

Think about it :
- Power = improves the group DPS
- Vitality = improves the group survivability
- Healing power = improves the group survivability
- Magic Find = improves the user loots

See? It’s the only stat that only benefits the user itself. Which is why it’s selfish in dungeons :p

It’s much simpler to just change MF to :
- MF = improves the group loots

And there won’t be any more issue specific to MF itself. Of course, you’d need to average each player MF to make it work correctly.

I have done Dungeons with Magic Find and Without Magic Find. Yes it SLIGHTLY lowers survivability but that can be compensated for by running with Trait build that makes up for the lacking stat. I have 4 80s and all 4 have been done in this manner. I do dungeons just fine and no one is the wiser on the gear am using. On Kaineng we do not ask what gear other are using unless we like the look of it. Magic Find affects what is dropped by mobs but is still up to chance. Yet everyone is entitled to their opinion. On my Elementalist I use MF to FARM.

You might only be adding 3 minutes, but it’s only going to be a 30min run, so that’s 10% longer with the other players in the group gaining nothing extra so you can get extra loot yourself. That’s not selfish?

Although if the entire group wants to use mf, then that’s fine. Since that way at least everyone is gaining something in exchange for the loss of strength.

@stof: I would happily run AC in group with all MF users. I already happily run AC in groups with sub-80’s players, first time in dungeon players, players not in exotic gear, etc. The difficulty of the dungeon is so low you don’t have to be anywhere near perfect…heck, you don’t even have to be anywhere near average.

As for your useful stats thing: I don’t need toughness to survive AC or low level fractals, nor would it help against Colosuss screams or scavenger nomming. So it’s not useful. I trade it for MF. That is useful. If useful is your definition of acceptable, then MF is better.

@Navzar: Percentages are fun tools, eh? ZOMG!!! 10%. And those sub-80’s, they’re 15%. The guy who doesn’t know any of the fights and asks for advice on how to handle them. He’s 35%. Unless you’re going to insist on level 80, exotic berzerker, DPS traits only, percentages are just as empty as every other anti-MF complaint centered around time or efficiency. You don’t actually care about either of those. You care that someone else is getting more stuffs than you.

@sharing MF: You don’t convince skilled players to play to their maximum potential by promising them the lower rewards of shared magic find. You convince skilled players to play to their maximum potential by rewarding them for doing so. MF as it currently exists does this. I play closer to (but seriously, AC is easy enough that I’m still semi-half junvile felining it most of the time) my maximum potential in MF gear than I do on my tank warrior because I have to. ‘Course, outside of the Colossus and Kholer, my MF warrior happily melees everything in AC, and when I’m really feeling my oats, I’ll even melee Colossus just to see if I can stay in that narrow little wedge directly behind him the entire fight.

Of course, that’s why you don’t take any of that group into a dungeon with you. [/sarcasm] The point is that you can very easily eliminate that extra time by switching to your normal gear.
And if we cared so much that someone is getting more stuffs, then we’d just use mf ourselves. Heck, I do use it, just not for dungeons. Besides, in something easy like CoF, you get most of the better drops from chests, which mf doesn’t affect. So as far as money/time goes, its better off without it anyway. Also, you can’t play your maximum potential if your using mf gear. I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about that. And if percentages are so empty, why do you even use mf gear? That’s all it is, an increased percentage.

The assumption that only good players use mf gear is also very lulzy as well.

edit:forgot I need /sarcasm when I’m on the internet.

I disagree with people saying magic find doesn’t contribute to the group. Magic find raises personal morale to kill that monster and get good loot, thus, bringing the inner hot blooded soul inside you to fight harder, stronger and to do the impossible!

That alone makes that stat OP in my opinion and probably needs a nerf. Probably should remove the effect where if we stack 120% + of Magic find, we activate our special ability which makes us always the last man alive during a wipe and soloed the boss at 30 % hp and revive the guy who was so busy complaining about magic find during battle and died many times.

Navzar.2938:

Of course, that’s why you don’t take any of that group into a dungeon with you. The point is that you can very easily eliminate that extra time by switching to your normal gear.
And if we cared so much that someone is getting more stuffs, then we’d just use mf ourselves. Heck, I do use it, just not for dungeons. Besides, in something easy like CoF, you get most of the better drops from chests, which mf doesn’t affect. So as far as money/time goes, its better off without it anyway. Also, you can’t play your maximum potential if your using mf gear. I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about that. And if percentages are so empty, why do you even use mf gear? That’s all it is, an increased percentage.

The assumption that only good players use mf gear is also very lulzy as well.

No the incorrect assumption is that all MF players are bad players who will always be the one to let the team down when what you wear and how well do you are two separate things.

Xavori.3768:

@Navzar: Percentages are fun tools, eh? ZOMG!!! 10%. And those sub-80’s, they’re 15%. The guy who doesn’t know any of the fights and asks for advice on how to handle them. He’s 35%. Unless you’re going to insist on level 80, exotic berzerker, DPS traits only, percentages are just as empty as every other anti-MF complaint centered around time or efficiency. You don’t actually care about either of those. You care that someone else is getting more stuffs than you.

Did those sub-80s choose to lower their level? No.
Did that guy choose to not know the fights due to never having done them before? No.
Did a MF user choose to lower his stats for his own benefit, despite doing so making his group weaker? Yes.

Are stats other than DPS useful? Depends on situation, but often yes.
Is MF useful in combat at all? No.

Both of these have been explained to you many times already.

Blackmoon.6837:

Solving this problem is inevitably the same as the skipping issue. You simply have to coordinate you groups better. It’s a community, so be social and discuss the issues before making your parties. /Solved

I’ve made many groups and I always take whoever I get, from newer players who still have things to learn down to MF users. I’ll enjoy the game either way, yet wait… I’m not opposing MF so my opinion is irrelevant, right?

If you’re really strung out about MF, then make a guild that focuses on not using it. Just take advantage of the social aspects and quit blaming your lack of effort to do so on the game’s design.

But… but… if folks did that, people might find they’re being the pedants they left/criticized WoW over!

complains about ascended gear
plays gear elitist regarding MF users

Not naming names. You can figure it out by looking at peoples forum posts and their signatures in some instances. But yeah.

If you hated on ascended gear but want to throw down over people using MF gear, surprise!

You’re a hypocrite.

Navzar.2938:

Of course, that’s why you don’t take any of that group into a dungeon with you. The point is that you can very easily eliminate that extra time by switching to your normal gear.
And if we cared so much that someone is getting more stuffs, then we’d just use mf ourselves. Heck, I do use it, just not for dungeons. Besides, in something easy like CoF, you get most of the better drops from chests, which mf doesn’t affect. So as far as money/time goes, its better off without it anyway. Also, you can’t play your maximum potential if your using mf gear. I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about that. And if percentages are so empty, why do you even use mf gear? That’s all it is, an increased percentage.

The assumption that only good players use mf gear is also very lulzy as well.

I take whatever groups come up with me into AC and low level fractals.

See, I do understand what y’all are saying. My counter argument is that on easy dungeons, the difference between me in MF and me in zerker DOES NOT MATTER. It’s not going to have a noticeable affect beyond all the other things that change how fast a dungeon run goes.

What’s more is that the only way there would be a difference is if I did choose to switch to zerker armor. If I choose knight’s, it’s exactly the same as explorer’s since I don’t need toughness to keep from getting downed, and it wouldn’t save me from the stuff that can down me anyway. If I choose anything other than knight’s or zerker, my DPS goes down while my survivability doesn’t change.

So what I see the argument breaking down into is that y’all insist on wear zerker armor so that you can save 30 seconds to two minutes on a dungeon run. My counter argument is I don’t care about 30 seconds to two minutes when there are so many other factors that play a bigger role in how long a dungeon takes, and I most definitely am not interested in putting all my toons in zerker armor during AC runs just so y’all can have an extra two minutes of time if everything goes perfectly.

@gimmethegepgun

You do realize you’re demonstrating exactly my point that anti-MF people don’t really care about efficiency, and hence, aren’t making rational arguments.

I do agree that stats other than DPS can be useful. But this entire time I’ve made it very clear that I only play my MF warrior on easy stuff, and in those cases, DPS and the RNG tend to be the only things that matter. It’s also why I keep pointing out that the difference in DPS between explorer’s and zerker isn’t enough to warrant my switching.

I’ve also explained a few times now that I choose MF gear for that content to minimize the amount of time I have to spend on stuff to earn gold. I promise you that if zerker gear was the better route to minimizing time to earn gold, that’s what I’d wear. The fact is there simply isn’t enough time saved to make up for the loss of gold.

And yes, I’d very happily run AC with teams decked out in exactly the same gear as my warrior. Head to toe exotics with ascended where possible makes for a whole lot of DPS even if all of it is MF boosting as well.

An offer for all of the anti-magic find people. Let’s run a full set of AC explore sometime. If at the end of that run you can show me that I’m not more valuable to a group than the average player, even in MF gear, I’ll agree y’all are right.

On the other hand, given just how many times I’ve run AC it’s entirely possible we’ve already run together, and you just didn’t realize I was in MF gear because I do contribute more than average.

Essence Snow.3194:

Xavori.3768:

@Essence Snow:

The difference between me running my MF warrior in AC using MF gear and zerker is maybe 2-3 minutes off the run time. Average players are already overkill for AC’s difficulty and you don’t get linear returns as you push farther and farther into that overkill zone. If it was graphed stats versus run time, the graph would definitely start to flatten out long before we get to explorer’s/knight’s gear, let alone zerker.

One bad spawn of extra graveling scavengers costs more than 5 minutes.

Deltha bugging and needing to be lured to her death can cost an entire dungeon run up to that point if she doesn’t unbug.

A graveling scavenger deciding to nom on Hodgkins rather than the player guarding him can force a reset that costs 5 or more minutes.

Kholer being spawned with a pair of elementalists versus a pair of warriors can double the time it takes to kill him because he’s really good at tanking for them, and they hit hard and have AoE’s.

One or two sub 80 teammates costs more than 5 minutes.

One guy needing to go afk because his dog is about to piddle on the carpet is 2-3 minutes.

One gal needing to go afk because she’s about to piddle on the carpet is 5 or so minutes.

So many things cost more time than I could possibly make up by switching to zerker gear, and many of them are completely beyond the control of the players.

Every one of those are external factors that have nothing to with stats. The whole deal with MF is stats. If you’d put into a simulator 2 runs with everything identical except MF, will there be a difference? Yes, there would be…that’s it…..there’s the debate…no if, ands, or buts about it. It’s yes/no, black/white, 0/1, heaven/hell…etc etc. Trying to throw in all shades of grey will not change that at it’s core it’s a yes/no issue.

Does it make a difference? Yes…no matter the amount of difference , it does make a difference. The issue revolves around not how much of a difference it makes, but that it does.

The problem is playing the game is not just about stats and that is why Xavori is right on the spot. Well unless you want to play it with pen, paper, and calculator (where stats rule). Why look at things in a single dimension when “the game” is multidimensional. :p

Corvi.3278:

The problem is playing the game is not just about stats and that is why Xavori is right on the spot. Well unless you want to play it with pen, paper, and calculator (where stats rule). Why look at things in a single dimension when “the game” is multidimensional. :p

Because in fact one of those dimensions, that affects everyone regardless of the other dimensions, is stats.
No matter how good the MF user is, they’re still doing worse than they could be.
And they’re doing so, at the expense of their group, to get more money for themselves.

Xavori.3768:

You do realize you’re demonstrating exactly my point that anti-MF people don’t really care about efficiency, and hence, aren’t making rational arguments.

And how, exactly, isn’t it rational?
Someone intentionally doing worse is an antisocial kitten.
Worse, the game is actually rewarding them for being an antisocial kitten.
People have a problem with antisocial kittens in a supposedly group-oriented game.
Thus, removing the reward for being a selfish, antisocial kitten is logical.

Besides, if they removed MF then they could actually up drop rates without screwing the economy and then EVERYONE gets better drops without encouraging selfish kittens to waste peoples time with MF gear.

I hate magic find because it makes changes to a part of the game that should already ahve been at maximum.

We shouldn’t need a special stat to have a chance at getting a drop. We should have the complete chance at the drop simply because we kill the mob.

Magic is essentially a stat that exists for its own purpose that really doesn’t add anything to the gameplay experience and which we would all be made better off by having it removed and everyone’s chance to get a good drop increased accordingly.

Stats like Vit, Healing, Precision, Power have an actual effect on the game and it is by choosing these stats that your character’s maximum effective playstyle will be determined. But magic find has no effect on how your character performs.

@Xavori.3768: But it does matter, that is the point. If you run with lower levels, thats your choice, you can see who is lower than 80 and chose not to group with them. However, people cant see if you wear MF gear on the spot, so there is no way they can know before starting the dungeon.

Also, if you run with lower levels, the groups survival or dps would increase alot if you field zerkers or knight gear, because both would significantly raise your threat, helping the less geared/leveled people to survive better. Here zerkers would be better since it also increases the groups damage.

Another thing is, I dont mind running with lower levels, thats not an issue, they dont chose to be lower levels. But a MF player activly picks lesser stats for their own benefit, they have the option to field the best gear for their group but decide not to and let others carry a heavier weight.

Selfish, selfish, selfish.

Personally I only started using magic find a few days ago, did i miss out? probably but im not that bothered really. I decided that it wasent going away and i may as well get on the band wagon.

However my opinion has not changed even though i now use it. Call me contradictory if you wish but thats just how it is

Now my reason why I do not want magiv find in the game is that I feel the loot tables should be the same across the board with no hidden bonus to get more magicy loot. It kind of trivialises the finds for me. Its designed for games where loot is the all and only and overiding factor and reason for playing the game. Games like diablo etc. Imo it doesent belong in an mmo where loot is not the only driving factor and force.

Xp bonus i can understand as leveling is one of the absolute major driving forces behind mmo. the ability to progress your character no matter what he uses.

I disagree with people saying magic find doesn’t contribute to the group. Magic find raises personal morale to kill that monster and get good loot, thus, bringing the inner hot blooded soul inside you to fight harder, stronger and to do the impossible!

So, if you are happy because you loot better, group gameplay will improve? lol.
Face reality please, these are good words, but have no realistic impact.
The realistic impact is that you boost your morale, you loot better, but you waste MY TIME for this, whitout any sort of Gain.

@sharing MF: You don’t convince skilled players to play to their maximum potential by promising them the lower rewards of shared magic find. You convince skilled players to play to their maximum potential by rewarding them for doing so. MF as it currently exists does this. I play closer to (but seriously, AC is easy enough that I’m still semi-half junvile felining it most of the time) my maximum potential in MF gear than I do on my tank warrior because I have to. ‘Course, outside of the Colossus and Kholer, my MF warrior happily melees everything in AC, and when I’m really feeling my oats, I’ll even melee Colossus just to see if I can stay in that narrow little wedge directly behind him the entire fight.

This is fantastic! So i have to take on party a “skilled player” that not only DONT DO ITS maximum, but also he drop better then the other group member, slowing them at the same time.

I find myself having to laugh at all this argument about magic find. It’s all a moot point anyway. When you’re playing the game the only person you’re responsible to for your armor is yourself. You are in no way obligated to post your armor, describe your stats, or state your build. Anybody who doesn’t like that, tough luck. If I’m joining a group I’m not posting my equipment as an entry fee, nor am I going to buy more than one set of armor per character unless I dang well feel like it. And if that set of armor is based on MF, that’s my business, not yours. You don’t like it? I’ll find another group, plain and simple. That’s all the argument anyone needs. Your math, your figures, your statistics, your examples, all irrelevant.

Lafiel.9372:

Navzar.2938:

Of course, that’s why you don’t take any of that group into a dungeon with you. The point is that you can very easily eliminate that extra time by switching to your normal gear.
And if we cared so much that someone is getting more stuffs, then we’d just use mf ourselves. Heck, I do use it, just not for dungeons. Besides, in something easy like CoF, you get most of the better drops from chests, which mf doesn’t affect. So as far as money/time goes, its better off without it anyway. Also, you can’t play your maximum potential if your using mf gear. I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about that. And if percentages are so empty, why do you even use mf gear? That’s all it is, an increased percentage.

The assumption that only good players use mf gear is also very lulzy as well.

No the incorrect assumption is that all MF players are bad players who will always be the one to let the team down when what you wear and how well do you are two separate things.

No, the assumption is that and MF player will be worse in his MF gear than in normal gear, which is very correct.

I also dont understand all that hate agains MF considering any idiot can beat any content in this game (maybe except for people with Parkinson’s doing jumping puzzles). That is one of many other things in this game that makes me feel like in WoW. “Oh your gear is 0,23% worse than what we want for our group, I dont care if you are more skilled than the rest of us”.

SneakyErvin.3056:

@Xavori.3768: But it does matter, that is the point. If you run with lower levels, thats your choice, you can see who is lower than 80 and chose not to group with them. However, people cant see if you wear MF gear on the spot, so there is no way they can know before starting the dungeon.

Also, if you run with lower levels, the groups survival or dps would increase alot if you field zerkers or knight gear, because both would significantly raise your threat, helping the less geared/leveled people to survive better. Here zerkers would be better since it also increases the groups damage.

Another thing is, I dont mind running with lower levels, thats not an issue, they dont chose to be lower levels. But a MF player activly picks lesser stats for their own benefit, they have the option to field the best gear for their group but decide not to and let others carry a heavier weight.

Selfish, selfish, selfish.

In my case, you don’t need to inspect my gear. You can just ask. Better yet, just make it clear when putting together the group you don’t want MF. I’m not even remotely interested in upsetting other players by trying to sneak in. Games are about fun. Juvenile felining people isn’t fun to me. Plus, I have lots of level 80 alts. I’m sure one would fit in the group.

As for selfish…how is it I’m selfish for wanting to be rewarded for my skill? It’d be selfish if the group was carrying me….if I was doing less than average. I promise you. That never happens.

Magic find gear is all about being rewarded for player skill because the stat the devs take away is toughness. That means it’s up to the player, not their stats, to keep them on their feet. If you reach the point where you are totally comfortable with movement and dodging, you don’t need that extra toughness to protect you. So the smart thing to do is trade a stat you’re not using for one that you do. Knight’s and Explorer’s are identical except one has toughness and one has MF. I made that trade because I am totally comfortable counting on my ability to time dodges and move in and out of range of mobs to keep me going.

I think it’s selfish that I’m expected to only play a full DPS build – full zerker gear toon because that truly is the only way I could really make the runs I take my MF warrior on faster. And as I’ve tried to point out, it would likely all be for naught because so many other things factor in to how long easy dungeon runs take, and most of those things have a bigger impact that a slight buff to my DPS.

CETheLucid.3964:

Blackmoon.6837:

Solving this problem is inevitably the same as the skipping issue. You simply have to coordinate you groups better. It’s a community, so be social and discuss the issues before making your parties. /Solved

I’ve made many groups and I always take whoever I get, from newer players who still have things to learn down to MF users. I’ll enjoy the game either way, yet wait… I’m not opposing MF so my opinion is irrelevant, right?

If you’re really strung out about MF, then make a guild that focuses on not using it. Just take advantage of the social aspects and quit blaming your lack of effort to do so on the game’s design.

But… but… if folks did that, people might find they’re being the pedants they left/criticized WoW over!

complains about ascended gear
plays gear elitist regarding MF users

Not naming names. You can figure it out by looking at peoples forum posts and their signatures in some instances. But yeah.

If you hated on ascended gear but want to throw down over people using MF gear, surprise!

You’re a hypocrite.

ascended gear and mf gear are different stories. i for one hated ascended gear because it’s a testament of a.net’s flipflopping and broken promise. and mf, it is a failure on players’ part because they are using to lower their potential to get the maximum loot.
it’s not about gear elitism. it’s about using your commonsense and getting yourself useful.

rtommaso.3120:

That is one of many other things in this game that makes me feel like in WoW. “Oh your gear is 0,23% worse than what we want for our group, I dont care if you are more skilled than the rest of us”.

yeah, if it feeds your delusion that MF users are the most skilled players in game, so be it.

CETheLucid.3964:

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

Current situation:
Player 1 gets rewarded more for doing less (lower attributes means lower damage, heal, control, etc)
Players 2, 3, 4 and 5 don’t get any extra rewards despite having a tougher time because of Player 1.
Only player 1 is happy.

Gisei.5749:

Personally, I just don’t like the idea of shouldering more weight to help some random guy get better drops. If someone is running with me, I expect them to do their best, and they can’t do that with MF gear.

There is absolutely no logical argument for MF. Losing a stat gimps your performance, and it is at the expense of others. If you have three apples, and lose one, no matter how you try to word it, or twist it, you have less apples. The same applies to stats.

You’re assuming player 1 would be a better player if he wore better gear, wheras if player 1 stunk in MF gear, player 1 wouldn’t become a better player in optimal gear.
(descends further down that rabbit hole)

Skill argument, didn’t bother reading past that.

IT.IS.NOT.A.VALID.DEFENSE.ARGUMENT.

The only way to realistically work this is to look at the average, meaning we don’t look at the best possible case for one side IE: super skilled but statistically gimped MF user or the worst possible case scenario IE: super un-skilled but statistically gimped MF user
We simply look at the average, no nonsense non variably better or worse MF user and see he’s got less stats.

HOW.ON.EARTH.IS.THAT.SO.HARD.TO.UNDERSTAND?

So, lets take all those skill arguments and toss em out the window as skill is just an unneeded variable that won’t help us see the value or lack thereof of the stat.

In my case, you don’t need to inspect my gear. You can just ask. Better yet, just make it clear when putting together the group you don’t want MF. I’m not even remotely interested in upsetting other players by trying to sneak in. Games are about fun. Juvenile felining people isn’t fun to me. Plus, I have lots of level 80 alts. I’m sure one would fit in the group.
As for selfish…how is it I’m selfish for wanting to be rewarded for my skill? It’d be selfish if the group was carrying me….if I was doing less than average. I promise you. That never happens.
Magic find gear is all about being rewarded for player skill because the stat the devs take away is toughness. That means it’s up to the player, not their stats, to keep them on their feet. If you reach the point where you are totally comfortable with movement and dodging, you don’t need that extra toughness to protect you. So the smart thing to do is trade a stat you’re not using for one that you do. Knight’s and Explorer’s are identical except one has toughness and one has MF. I made that trade because I am totally comfortable counting on my ability to time dodges and move in and out of range of mobs to keep me going.
I think it’s selfish that I’m expected to only play a full DPS build – full zerker gear toon because that truly is the only way I could really make the runs I take my MF warrior on faster. And as I’ve tried to point out, it would likely all be for naught because so many other things factor in to how long easy dungeon runs take, and most of those things have a bigger impact that a slight buff to my DPS.

You frame this badly for a start by throwing out the words juvenile, so allow me to respond, it’s juvenile to want to get more for contributing less.
The minute you used the word skill however you took any promise of your argument being listened to and flushed it down the proverbial toilet.

Lifeson.4352:

Imagine a world where magic find doesn’t exist, and drop rates are adjusted to full magic find level. Everyone gets to use their armor and not have to screw around with a second set that clogs up your bags, everyone gets equal drop rates. That’s why I hate magic find, cause it’s pointless and annoying.

What he said. Or she said.

Ellisande.5218:

Lifeson.4352:

Imagine a world where magic find doesn’t exist, and drop rates are adjusted to full magic find level. Everyone gets to use their armor and not have to screw around with a second set that clogs up your bags, everyone gets equal drop rates. That’s why I hate magic find, cause it’s pointless and annoying.

What he said. Or she said.

Actually, I am imagining a world where magic find will effect the ENTIRE party and has a cap (Prolly at 250% so it wont be an absurd 800% magicfind).

OR

It will show a party members magic find next to their portrait. That way I can immediately kick them out of my party for being a leeching parasite. (MF parties trying to scour through dungeons fast with efficiency…LOL! Especially with no rez rushing this monday pugs are even more screwed)

this will solve ALL issues with MF as birds of a feather will flock together.

Mirta.5029:

Budg.3064:

With dungeons relying on teamwork for success (sometimes), Magic Find is the only stat that is completely selfish and doesn’t help the team in any way.

but it doesn’t gimp the team in any way either.

Even your initial assumption, that the loss in stats can be compensated for with greater skill, supports the fact that MF does, in fact, gimp the team.

The real problem with MF is that all drop rates are adjusted down to compensate for 24/7 MF wearers. Non-MF users end up without even the hint of good drop rates.

alcopaul.2156:

rtommaso.3120:

That is one of many other things in this game that makes me feel like in WoW. “Oh your gear is 0,23% worse than what we want for our group, I dont care if you are more skilled than the rest of us”.

yeah, if it feeds your delusion that MF users are the most skilled players in game, so be it.

.23%? You’re giving up your primary stat, that’s 1003 attribute points, leaving you only your two 698s. (689×2)/(698×2 + 1003)=58.19% That’s quite a lot worse. Of course if you’re only looking offensively, then (698×2)/(1003 + 698)=82.07% plus critical damage. Huge difference between 41.8% 18% and .23%

And wearing mf armor doesn’t increase your skill stat, you’re just as skilled as the rest of us.

As for the ascended armor thing, I’m one of those people. Ascended armor is about it being very hard to get (40~60G a piece) while being significantly stronger. MF armor? Just as difficult/easy to get as non mf armor. And you could use normal armor, but make the choice not to.

Since y’all want to talk about stats now. Here’s my MF warrior:

Power 1902
Precision 2401
Toughness 1413
Vitality 1023
-
Attack 2926
Critical Chance 58%
Armor 2624
Health 19,442 w/ 2 regens
-
Magic Find (no luck stacks or food) 129%
_

Pretty sure that’s well above average even without the extra toughness I could get from Knight’s instead of Explorer’s.

@Navzar,

Explorer’s gear is not giving up 1003 useful points. That toughness will not save you from a graveling scavenger landing it’s leap – omnomnom combo. It will not save you from Kholer’s pull-whirl. It will not save you from Colossus’s or the Howling King’s screams (poor Ghost Eater has no scary attacks at all…my MF warrior just stands toe to toe with him). Surviving those attacks is 100% about player skill and experience.

p.s. I know that toughness doesn’t help because I also have a full tank warrior who put 30 points into toughness, 30 points into vitality, and is head to toe exotic power-toughness-vitality gear. If she gets omnom’d by scavenger when “Shake it off” is on cooldown, she dies just like everyone else.

@Hellkaiser. I didn’t “throw out the word juvenile”. I was using the term ‘juvenile feline’ to replace kitten which replaces naughty words on these forums. I do that I lot cuz it’s phunny.

And yes, skill is a valid argument. You would know this if you’d played AC enough to realize that there are mob attacks in those dungeons that stats simply aren’t enough to deal with, but player skill can regardless of toughness. So no, you don’t get to reject that argument out of hand unless you can first demonstrate that skill doesn’t matter since I’m pretty sure I’ve explained exactly how and where it matters more than anything else.

Magic Find shouldn’t be in game. There are alot of stats that should be introduced, an to improve the loot isn’t good because everyone will go that way and makes hard to balace our builds.

Hey, you forgot the critical damage stat :o

Xavori.3768:

And yes, skill is a valid argument. You would know this if you’d played AC enough to realize that there are mob attacks in those dungeons that stats simply aren’t enough to deal with, but player skill can regardless of toughness. So no, you don’t get to reject that argument out of hand unless you can first demonstrate that skill doesn’t matter since I’m pretty sure I’ve explained exactly how and where it matters more than anything else.

SKill is an invalid argument just because your are not the most skilled player on earth! and MF users in general, are not the BEST PLAYERS in the game.
At parity of player skill, the lack of toughness or crit damage, make MF users a burden for the rest of the party just because they are lowering intentionally the power of their build, for more droprate.

If you go alone, you can do what you want with your char and your time, on group, things change.

Xavori.3768:

I know that toughness doesn’t help

WAT? SAY IT AGAIN?

Xavori.3768:

Since y’all want to talk about stats now. Here’s my MF warrior:

Power 1902
Precision 2401
Toughness 1413
Vitality 1023
-
Attack 2926
Critical Chance 58%
Armor 2624
Health 19,442 w/ 2 regens
-
Magic Find (no luck stacks or food) 129%

You got like 500 precision too much that cannot come from traits since I’m counting them already. Did you find some +500 precision rune set somewhere? Or maybe a signet buff or some precision food?

Xavori.3768:

Pretty sure that’s well above average even without the extra toughness I could get from Knight’s instead of Explorer’s.

@Navzar,

Explorer’s gear is not giving up 1003 useful points. That toughness will not save you from a graveling scavenger landing it’s leap – omnomnom combo. It will not save you from Kholer’s pull-whirl. It will not save you from Colossus’s or the Howling King’s screams (poor Ghost Eater has no scary attacks at all…my MF warrior just stands toe to toe with him). Surviving those attacks is 100% about player skill and experience.

p.s. I know that toughness doesn’t help because I also have a full tank warrior who put 30 points into toughness, 30 points into vitality, and is head to toe exotic power-toughness-vitality gear. If she gets omnom’d by scavenger when “Shake it off” is on cooldown, she dies just like everyone else.

@Hellkaiser. I didn’t “throw out the word juvenile”. I was using the term ‘juvenile feline’ to replace kitten which replaces naughty words on these forums. I do that I lot cuz it’s phunny.

And yes, skill is a valid argument. You would know this if you’d played AC enough to realize that there are mob attacks in those dungeons that stats simply aren’t enough to deal with, but player skill can regardless of toughness. So no, you don’t get to reject that argument out of hand unless you can first demonstrate that skill doesn’t matter since I’m pretty sure I’ve explained exactly how and where it matters more than anything else.

Let’s keep Knight gear out of the equation. Why don’t you compare your Explorer set to a Berserker Set with Ruby trinkets? Explorer has no survivability stats so obviously, if you can survive with it, there’s no point comparing that to Knight gear. But Berserk gear would be a plain upgrade to your group so why aren’t you using it ?

Xavori.3768:

. . .
@Navzar,

Explorer’s gear is not giving up 1003 useful points. That toughness will not save you from a graveling scavenger landing it’s leap – omnomnom combo. It will not save you from Kholer’s pull-whirl. It will not save you from Colossus’s or the Howling King’s screams (poor Ghost Eater has no scary attacks at all…my MF warrior just stands toe to toe with him). Surviving those attacks is 100% about player skill and experience.

That’s why I should the difference with both defensive and offensive stats. If you read past the first sentence, you’d still see that its 18% less power+ no critical damage. Or is extra power and crit damage useless too?

@stof

My warrior is 5 signet traited for the precision on unused signets. This gives me an extra 200 precision. Signet passives are also worth 90 more stat points (power, precision, and vitality). I’m also using ascended stuff everywhere currently possible, and have the karka accessory we got at Lost Shores, and I fully expect to have the new ascended laurel stuff as fast as possible as I already make it a point to complete all my dailies and monthlies. So yes, I do have more stats than your average player, but I still don’t think it matters anywhere near as much as my experience running the dungeons and playing the game.

I’m pretty sure there are players rolling their eyes at a 5 signet build since the perception is that because it’s not as OP at level 80 as it is at level 30 (and honestly, a 5 signet warrior at low levels with all the extra precision is seriously OP), it’s not worth doing. But when you look at the total stats you can put together which improves every single attack you make, it’s a very solid build. The only real weakness is a complete lack of condition removal. However, with both adrenaline and signet regen, I can outheal poison and 6 stacks of bleeding together. Somewhere I also have written down how many stacks of freezing I can take in the ice fractal, but I can’t find that piece of paper. It was a lot tho.

Now, 5 signet is definitely not the ‘best’ DPS build, nor would I ever take her into WvW like this. However, it is about as close to perfect for most dungeons and low level fractals since every single attack you make gets buffed, and once you get your adrenaline built up, both your damage and durability go up pretty significantly.

And why do I have to keep Knight’s out of the equation? Because it makes my point about the stats not mattering?

You are right that zerker w/ rubies would be more damage with the same survivability as explorer. The fact that you want this as your basis of comparison pretty much proves one of my key points from above tho. There is only one way I could do more damage than I do now, and there is no reason I would ever do it. I’m not remotely interested in being forced to wear zerker armor just because y’all think I’m being selfish by not doing so, especially since as I’ve said so many times, it’s not going to matter. The runs will take how long they take based on things other than my DPS.

WAT. You say toughness is useless and you don’t want to be forced wearing an offensive gear?!?!?!

And imply that MF users are the most skillful players in game coz you’re one?

Joke man. Whatta big Joke.

Navzar.2938:

Xavori.3768:

. . .
@Navzar,

Explorer’s gear is not giving up 1003 useful points. That toughness will not save you from a graveling scavenger landing it’s leap – omnomnom combo. It will not save you from Kholer’s pull-whirl. It will not save you from Colossus’s or the Howling King’s screams (poor Ghost Eater has no scary attacks at all…my MF warrior just stands toe to toe with him). Surviving those attacks is 100% about player skill and experience.

That’s why I should the difference with both defensive and offensive stats. If you read past the first sentence, you’d still see that its 18% less power+ no critical damage. Or is extra power and crit damage useless too?

Offense is not useless, just not going to matter in easy dungeons. My fastest time ever completing all three AC paths in a pug was just under an hour, and that was more because it was a really good group of experienced people, and nobody ever needed to break, not even between paths (oh, omnomberry bars are great timers which is how I know how long most runs take me). The average time to complete all three paths is an hour and 10 minutes, and the ~15 minute difference is usually time spent waiting on people. My longest time every while still actually completing all three paths was two hours, and that was because Deltha bugged and we had to start over combined with one guy who kept going afk, but since he warned us up front, no one really got upset with him.

Xavori.3768:

Navzar.2938:

Xavori.3768:

. . .
@Navzar,

Explorer’s gear is not giving up 1003 useful points. That toughness will not save you from a graveling scavenger landing it’s leap – omnomnom combo. It will not save you from Kholer’s pull-whirl. It will not save you from Colossus’s or the Howling King’s screams (poor Ghost Eater has no scary attacks at all…my MF warrior just stands toe to toe with him). Surviving those attacks is 100% about player skill and experience.

That’s why I should the difference with both defensive and offensive stats. If you read past the first sentence, you’d still see that its 18% less power+ no critical damage. Or is extra power and crit damage useless too?

Offense is not useless, just not going to matter in easy dungeons. My fastest time ever completing all three AC paths in a pug was just under an hour, and that was more because it was a really good group of experienced people, and nobody ever needed to break, not even between paths (oh, omnomberry bars are great timers which is how I know how long most runs take me). The average time to complete all three paths is an hour and 10 minutes, and the ~15 minute difference is usually time spent waiting on people. My longest time every while still actually completing all three paths was two hours, and that was because Deltha bugged and we had to start over combined with one guy who kept going afk, but since he warned us up front, no one really got upset with him.

Your anecdotes of AC finish time can be ridiculed by anyone, on this case by me, because in AC you are downscaled to level 30 something, so the full potential of stat can’t be realized. Try comparing it to a level 75+ dungeon, where your AC stats will be multiplied by a larger factor and notice the actual difference.

one thing is for sure though, that while playing in AC, you still have those missing stats.

alcopaul.2156:

WAT. You say toughness is useless and you don’t want to be forced wearing an offensive gear?!?!?!

And imply that MF users are the most skillful players in game coz you’re one?

Joke man. Whatta big Joke.

Ya. Not what I said. You’re building strawmen.

I said toughness was useless on easy content. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve referenced AC and low level fractals in this discussion.

I’ve also not once tried to make a sweeping generality about MF player skill. I am highly skilled. I know not at all how much skill anyone else in this thread has. I want to be rewarded for my high level of skill, so I wear MF gear on content where the alternative gear wouldn’t really matter.

Now you did get the part about me not wanting to be forced to wear specific gear pretty close. Ask yourself, what if I insisted that if you played a guardian you had to wear toughness/vitality/power armor and go with an alturuistic healing shout build because that’s what would be best for me if I ever ended up grouped with you?

(side note: I love being grouped with one alt healing shout guardian…gimmee boons)

Doesn’t it seem a lot more selfish to tell someone else what build and what gear they had to use?

After all, all I’m asking for is superior skill to receive superior rewards which is kinda how the real world is supposed to work (please note all the qualifiers I stuck in the second half of that sentence…and make sure you understand what I mean by qualifiers). To me, that’s not selfish. It’s how things should be.

Xavori.3768:

alcopaul.2156:

WAT. You say toughness is useless and you don’t want to be forced wearing an offensive gear?!?!?!

And imply that MF users are the most skillful players in game coz you’re one?

Joke man. Whatta big Joke.

Ya. Not what I said. You’re building strawmen.

I said toughness was useless on easy content. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve referenced AC and low level fractals in this discussion.

I’ve also not once tried to make a sweeping generality about MF player skill. I am highly skilled. I know not at all how much skill anyone else in this thread has. I want to be rewarded for my high level of skill, so I wear MF gear on content where the alternative gear wouldn’t really matter.

Now you did get the part about me not wanting to be forced to wear specific gear pretty close. Ask yourself, what if I insisted that if you played a guardian you had to wear toughness/vitality/power armor and go with an alturuistic healing shout build because that’s what would be best for me if I ever ended up grouped with you?

(side note: I love being grouped with one alt healing shout guardian…gimmee boons)

Doesn’t it seem a lot more selfish to tell someone else what build and what gear they had to use?

After all, all I’m asking for is superior skill to receive superior rewards which is kinda how the real world is supposed to work (please note all the qualifiers I stuck in the second half of that sentence…and make sure you understand what I mean by qualifiers). To me, that’s not selfish. It’s how things should be.

there is an illusion of uselessness of toughness in AC. yes it is a level 30 something fractal so you don’t notice the numbers actually kicking in. but try to remove one piece of armor which is akin to decreasing toughness and take damage. you see dmg numbers go up right?. in fractals where the numbers are much bigger, it is noticeable. ive noticed bad mf gear players die most of the time in one or 2 hits. it can’t be denied coz mf gear is a glass cannon gear. low toughness/low vita, less buffer for damage that WILL hit you.

you can assert that you’re skilled in forums. anybody can do that. and lets assume that we’re all skilled in the forums. let’s assume that we have equal skill based on your gauge. i will still be better potentially offense/defense wise if i use berserker/knights than you wearing mf considering all the ideal scenario. ideal scenarios are used to actually tell the difference between the two variables. skill level/lag/being an kitten/trolling doesn’t count if you measure what is better between the two.

the fact that you’re playing with other people, you’re expected to perform well at least and be prepared and contribute to the team knowingly. if you choose a gear that lowers your potential and increases your loot, that’s taking advantage of other people. that’s being a leech or a parasite.

Xavori.3768:

Since y’all want to talk about stats now. Here’s my MF warrior:

Power 1902
Precision 2401
Toughness 1413
Vitality 1023
-
Attack 2926
Critical Chance 58%
Armor 2624
Health 19,442 w/ 2 regens
-
Magic Find (no luck stacks or food) 129%
_

Pretty sure that’s well above average even without the extra toughness I could get from Knight’s instead of Explorer’s.

Right now you’ve gimped your stats for 129% MF in return. You wont do either tanking, support or dps at any great preformance, no matter how you try to tell us that you do.

Without the added damage from crit damage, your crit chance matters little, you wont get any big crits, you are roughly 75% behind in crit damage compared to someone filling a proper dps role, you deal about half as much crit damage as them (80% vs 155%+). You dont have the toughness to help take hate. Your attack is around 300 behind a dpser (600 behind my mesmer), so fairly low. You do about the same damage a tank does, minus the survivability. You tank worse than a dps specced/geared person since your damage is lower and you have no toughness, so have a harder time taking hate. All in all you preform no real role, since you dont have healing to support your shouts (if you are even specced for that) either.

Again, MF is a waste.

edit: Regarding your guardian AH comment. There are other viable traits and skills that build on the monk trait with meditations, that does roughly the same for your group and giving the guardian a more easier time to burst heal himself while holding hate and dealing great AoE damage. It’s up to the guardian really if he decides on AH or MoF, since both are personal heals, only difference are a few boons or condi cleansing/movement (king on Alpha fight). Also asking an AH based guardian to wear P/T/V gear means he will not proc his might very often and he will most likely go down due to lack of constant incoming AH. Great you come with such marvelous examples.

Your guardian example is one based on lack of knowledge, its not even a close comparison to those that want people to NOT wear MF gear.