Guild Wars 2

The way real money to in-game return works in this game is just very poorly done compared to others. Some games can get away with having a system where what you buy with cash stays yours because they take in a monthly sub, but this game doesn’t and it needs to make the reward for spending real money more lucrative. One oddity is the BL Chests themselves.

In most other games that rely on cash-shop revenue, there are new boxes made for each item set release, said boxes are bought from the cash shop, and there’s no additional RNG luck needed to obtain keys to open them. If the equivalent were here in this game, boxes containing a number of the currently-unobtainable skins would still be purchasable through the gem store and could be resold on the TP for in-game currency. The way Anet’s system works, wanted skins go out of circulation for too long and they lose out on money, both from players trying to get the items themselves and from players who want to turn their gems into gold, something that they’d see a higher return on through the TP than buying gems and turning them into gold through the additional TP feature.

Secondly, this is the only MMO that I’ve played or researched lately that has such a horrid system for maintaining a customized appearance as you play. There are F2Ps that have 30-day cosmetic features as well as permanent, but none making top dollars that I know of where you literally have to pay real cash as you level or play as the devs denote—PvP for your transmutation charges, do map completion, or wait until your log in rewards build up—just to maintain your toon’s look from start to end game.

Again, let’s note that completely P2W games like World of Tanks and that out-of-nowhere eastern Counter-Strike clone obliterate Guild Wars 2 in terms of revenue and profit. Games like Star Wars: The Old Republic take in a large percentage of their income through the cash shop as well, and generally put some of the best looking items on said cash-shop. I do prefer a balance of both in-game and cash shop acquired cosmetic gear, so I take it where I can get it.

The bottom line is that when players literally have to stop their leveling, PvP, questing, etc. experience in order to get more charges so that they can keep a desired look when changing armor, it becomes either an annoyance. Both having to buy more gems or giving into the grind because of the need to do side content that the player doesn’t want to do in order to gain more trans charges take away from the gaming experience.

SWTOR: rip mods, put in new ones, outer appearance stays the same. They also just recently added a costume tab so that if an entirely new piece is desired the base armor can be switched and the outer look remains unchanged; LOTRO: costume tabs; WoW: acquire trans charges for little in-game gold; Vindictus and Black Desert: purchased outfits remain as cosmetic outers no matter what armor they player swaps to if they keep them visibly toggled. In Vindictus lower-level armors can be fused with other sets to maintain a look as armor is upgraded.

If players could buy all the sets they liked for this game, or acquire all the sets they like in-game, and change them more easily it would be beneficial. Buying outfits should not be the only way this can be accomplished.

@Devata

Still running MMOs
—————————
Lineage – 16+ years
Lineage II – 11+ years
GW – 10 years
AION – 6+ years
B&S – 2+ years
GW2 – 2+ years
Wildstar – 10 months

Closed MMOs
—————————
Auto Assault – 16 months
Tabula Rasa – 15 months
Dungeon Runner – 31 months
City of Heroes – 8+ years

Yep, NCSOFT cashes out of one MMO and move on to the next leaving a trail of shuttered, previously successful MMOs in their wake. NOT

Behellagh.1468:

@Devata

Still running MMOs
—————————
Lineage – 16+ years
Lineage II – 11+ years
GW – 10 years
AION – 6+ years
B&S – 2+ years
GW2 – 2+ years
Wildstar – 10 months

Closed MMOs
—————————
Auto Assault – 16 months
Tabula Rasa – 15 months
Dungeon Runner – 31 months
City of Heroes – 8+ years

Yep, NCSOFT cashes out of one MMO and move on to the next leaving a trail of shuttered, previously successful MMOs in their wake. NOT

Now only if I talked about closing.

Secondly I said there was no need, that does not mean they won’t if they see it can stay profitable on the longer run (like L1). That is why I want a system that can stay interesting for a long time.

If I would think NCsoft would always move on to the next game no matter what, I would not have been interested in GW2 in the first place as I was looking for an MMO for the long term, not wanting to switch from one MMO to the next. But I don’t.

What I said was that there might not be the need for them to have all games being successful in the long run because they (can) move on to the next game. Because there is no need for NCsoft you should understand that that is not their primary goal. Moving on meaning development for the game gets shrunk down, gets less attention (that does not mean it gets abandoned completely) and focus / investments go to a new game. I never said anything about closing.

2014 Annual Income – direct income not license royalties (re: China) – ordered by start date

Lineage – 37.5% – 1998
Lineage II – 8.5% – 2003
AION – 13.5% – 2008
B&S – 11.8% – 2012
GW2 – 12.2% – 2012
WS – 7.1% – 2014
Other – 9.5% (GW is in here)

Also you are overlooking the fact that ANet is a wholly owned subsidiary of NCSOFT. It’s not a studio NCSOFT controls outright. NCSOFT can’t shut down ANet, they can only sell them off, GW IP and all.

In this relationship NCSOFT is their publisher/banker, willing to advance/loan them the development funds for the development for GW and GW2 which ANet paid back as a step (publisher style) royalty setup. What NCSOFT gets is the ability to co-mingle all of ANet’s income with theirs on paper to look better to their investors and bankers. What NCSOFT doesn’t get is keys to ANet’s vault to loot.

NCSOFT pushed for an expansion because likely the lion’s share of what ANet pays them is tied to “box” sales and not the cash shop. And with new box sales down after nearly 3 years and the advance/loan paid off so the royalty percentage is smaller, the cash flow from ANet to NCSOFT has dwindled. An expansion would give NCSOFT a kick in the cash flow from the “box” sales of the expansion and likely an uptick on “box” sales of the original game. Not to mention the income statement and balance sheet.

Behellagh.1468:

~

What exactly is your point here? If you compare Q1 of 2014 GW2 still made 25142 mn krw, while in Q4 it was 19272 mln krw. In fact, for the bigger MMO’s, in Q4 only Wildstar earned less. So while over the complete year 2014 GW2 did do it pretty well, there is a decline what resulted in GW2 being one of the least profitable in Q4. This decline has also been ongoing for a longer time. Compare for example the total income of 2014 85634 mln krw to the 123317 mln krw in 2013.

And like you say yourself, NCsoft invest in the company so it very much impacts the development. Last October it did a round of layoffs, not touching Anet at the moment. I am not sure if they can directly lay off people at Anet but when they invest lest in Anet the end result will be the same. If half a year after HoT GW2 is at the same point it was in Q4 of 2014 it’s not unlikely they do in fact lower investments going to Anet and that is what I talked about.

Now talking about these numbers is all very nice but in the end the subject here is the grind, and why it feels like a F2P. That is simply because it makes it’s money with a similar system as most F2P games, the cash-shop focus.

That makes the topic or question more a game-play perspective. What I did try to mention in my comment where I did touch this subject is that if people dislike the content, that is not good for the game so it should not simply be dismissed with “well the game is not for everybody” as Endrance did. Because if to people dislike it, you have a problem, it’s bad for the game. It’s that simple.

This is the entertainment industry. It’s important that people like it, and sure not everybody has to like it but if the group disliking it becomes to big, or rather the group liking it, to small, that is bad.

There is a lot of grind, and all the topics that talk about this show that many people dislike it. If the game then feels like a grindy F2P because it basically works as a F2P then maybe you should rethink that.

Mightybird.6034:

zenleto.6179:

So now paying for non-essential items is considered a grind? Have I read the post right?

I already paid 50 bucks plus tax for the game. Why am I still paying/grinding every time I want some decent/new/change. they are using a f2p model and still charging people.

And don’t give me non-esesential bullcrap. The whole thiing is non essential. Its a game you don’t need any of it.

However, I paid for it and I want that model of an experience out of it. That’s what people expect if they pay for a game.

So i suppose they should just start handing these items out then? Here you go, 50 appearance changes a day, oh you want to rename your character 500 times a day? Sure, here you go.

You got what you paid for, you don’t need ANY of these items to play the game to its full extent. Don’t want to grind? Buy gems, it’s kindergarten logic. You should kitten and be happy that you can get these items without paying real money, and getting gold in gw2 isn’t exactly very hard either.

The question is whether ANet has paid off that advance from NCSOFT and haven’t taken another, in which case NCSOFT is nothing more than a another monthly bill to ANet like power or the snack machine vendor. Was the income remaining post NCSOFT enough to allowed ANet to create this expansion without relying on their sugar daddy? In which case “here’s your cut of the expansion sales”. Only reason for any politeness is the off chance ANet needs to tap them again for development if the current income drops to low.

A drop in income is a primary concern for ANet and a cursory one for NCSOFT. If income can’t support the current staff it’s ANet who will do the cutting, as any company would, to stay profitable. All NCSOFT can say is they aren’t willing to prop them up with another advance against future sales.

So you like some others are disappointed over GW2 in comparison to GW. You don’t like how rewards are handled, income generated, content creation rate, etc. Well then maybe the game isn’t targeted for those with such a litmus test like you. Nobody can make a product that everyone likes. A company sets forth a design, implement and at the end of the day hope people like it enough the pay them.

If the game’s income fades away like Lineage II has, so be it. We get X-years of play from it and move on. Do we move onto another ANet MMO, NCSOFT MMO or someone elses or another game genre altogether, who knows. But what’s not going to happen is wholesale changes of how the game works or it’s income model. We aren’t ever going to get a paid box expansion every year. We aren’t going to get the skin portion of the Gem Shop shuttered and those items added directly into the game as earnable rewards. We aren’t going to get the zillions of traits you had in GW. They aren’t going to get rid of the Gem Exchange to eliminate what some call P2W.

All I see are predictions of the games demise unless the devs denounce their GW2 and return to the heavenly embrace of GW. It’s no difference than people who denounce an MMO because PvP sucks or the content is to casual. WildStar shows what you get listening to those voices.

Slackoth.2108:

So i suppose they should just start handing these items out then? Here you go, 50 appearance changes a day, oh you want to rename your character 500 times a day? Sure, here you go.

You got what you paid for, you don’t need ANY of these items to play the game to its full extent. Don’t want to grind? Buy gems, it’s kindergarten logic. You should kitten and be happy that you can get these items without paying real money, and getting gold in gw2 isn’t exactly very hard either.

I don’t think Mightybird is asking for them to be handed out. He simply says that when he pays for a game he does not expect a (F2P) model like this. That is at least what I make from it.

If it was locked behind some interesting content I don’t think he would complain, but it’s not, it’s behind a grind like you see in F2P games, the ones you usually don’t pay for. I think that is his complain here.

For me it’s not about the money, I have no problem spending money on the game, but I don’t buy a game to buy addition items for in it (and so I won’t spend money on gems). I have a game to play it, and for me, playing an MMO also means collecting those items in the game.. in a fun way, not in a boring grind.

“Don’t want to grind? Buy gems, it’s kindergarten logic.” Yeah that is indeed kindergarten logic. The cash-shop model is based on people using this kindergarten logic. Obviously it does not have much to do with playing a game, but some people seem to buy a game to buy other items for in it?

Behellagh.1468:

~

Well for GW2 I was in for the long run. Looking for a game that could stand the test of time, just as a game like WoW that is still going strong over 10 years after it’s release.

I do not like to move between mmo’s. You might think different about that and I respect that, but that is not what I am looking for in an MMO.

GW2 had imho on paper everything that could give it that long life, but then it turned into to this grind because of it’s current model.

Sure, I know it’s a long stretch that they will change it, but they wanted temporary content, then came to the conclusion that that did not work so changed it. They wanted the LS approach in stead of expansions and notice it didn’t worked so changed it. I am think (depending in HoT) they might be finding out this grindy model does not work for them. The question is then, what will they do? Look at some of these post, look at GW1 and go for that approach? Biggest problem is that by that time it might be to late, I already think they did some irreversible damage, but we will see. At least I did warn them in time.

If only these type of topics make people more aware of how models effect games there might be a demand for games using another model and that might help the gaming-industry. So I have no problem in participating in them. It won’t do any harm and might maybe do some good.

In the end, all I can do is post these sorts of comments and that’s it, so that is what I do.

But GW was of a different design (hub/instance) than GW2 which allowed quick content development.

The only fault I have with LS was the lack of replayability for future characters. You could participate in it if it was there and when it’s gone, sorry Charlie. And due to the casual MMO player they were targeting the actual new content could be played quickly be the more devoted MMO player which left them bored, but I wasn’t one of them. The four weeks a LS stayed simply wasn’t enough time for me in most cases to do the content to get the title or item on completion. LS2 fixed my problems.

And they didn’t abandon it for an expansion. Everything in the living stories have led up to opening up a new area. LS1 was the awakening of the dragon, LS2 the corruption that of the Sylvari that the Pale Tree has been holding at bay. And if you think we aren’t going to see another LS starting post expansion I think you will be wrong.

ANet did fumble LS a bit but the idea is a strong one. One that encourages players to play at least a few days every two weeks because an apparently empty world is a death knell to an MMO. But those that missed out for whatever reason felt punished on soured their opinion on LS. Add them to the hard core who thought it was too easy and were disappointed that a massive content dump wasn’t ever coming (at the time) and you get this undercurrent of hate.

The problem that you Devata and others from GW have is at the time when GW2 was launching, all that was left playing GW were uber-diehard players and you expected a new and exciting challenge and found a kiddy amusement park with few if any challenging activities. I never played GW so what I found I enjoyed. I think there’s a lot more of players like me than players like you.

Sure there are things they can improve. The reward system so heavily relying on RNG means, only through the fault of probability, that some players will have terrible luck while others have all the luck. You don’t have an X because you were good, just lucky (or rich). This discourages a reward via skill oriented player, as well as the low participation requirement to get a full drop. Why should skill matter if a key masher has the same chance of getting an X?

It’s not a death by a thousand cuts but the choices made to cater to a broader gaming audience have really annoyed a variety of vocal, more hard core players. And within the echo chamber of the forums we end up with “storms” of negativity like this week.

Behellagh.1468:

~

While off-topic, I didn’t say or mean they abandoned the LS. However there was a time they wanted to release expansion-like content with the LS instead of with expansions. They clearly said “if we do this (LS) right, we don’t ever get / need an expansion”. Back then the monthly and later bi-weekly updates where also much more strict. That is the old LS approach I talked about they changed. Now it are expansions mixed with the LS that has less strict updates. If you ask me they could go back to the LS as it with the first few updates. Very small patches that simply made a little story go on.

Back then the refugees came in, then signs got placed, then they settles in, meanwhile the tower that got destroyed with the Karka invasion was build up part, by part. For me that did feel way more like an ongoing story that just as well could go unnoticed, like many things happening in the world. They could then lead up to an expansion that would really add new content.

It was in fact back around the time that they started to speed up the LS, that imo things started to go bad. Items being added to the cash-shop every patch that are a grind to get, back then the LS was temporary so also additional temporary grind. And with their decision at that time to go for the LS approach it automatically did mean a more cash-shop focus.

Anyway, it’s that LS approach they came back up, that does not mean they abandon the LS. I do expect more LS while not completely sure it will be exactly the same as we did see in LS2. Depending on HoT sales and income / popularity afterword’s they might try to keep a similar focus on the LS or might shift a little more to expansions.

But your right, it’s a long stretch they would really shift to yearly expansions or at least drop the cash-shop focus in way to reduce the grind and change the main source of income. The fact that topics about these subjects get closed as soon as they see an excuse to do so, says a lot about how they feel about the subject. I just notice that the last “no grind philosophy” thread got closed. That is 3 in a row, and why? Probably because a few of the last posts where trolling. They don’t punish the troll but close the thread. So I am very much aware how Anet looks at it, yet I am convinced they will get to the point where they get forced to make a decision how to continue with the game because the current approach is not working as it should. They can now put fingers in their ears, close their eyes and cream ‘lala’ 9what is the worse you can do) but there is a point they can’t do that anymore.

Personally I did not play GW1. I knew it, had friends who played it, but did not play it myself as it was not my game. I expected this kiddy amusement park, remember, I like to hunt down cosmetics. However the amusement of doing an activity and winning a toy tuned out to be a grind, and then there was also the toy-shop that sold the same toys.

“You don’t have an X because you were good, just lucky” or because you grinded. This is what I am asking for right. Get x because you complete y (so also because you are ‘good’). Not because you got ‘lucky’ or grinded your brains out. Basically, that paragraph of you says the same as I ask for. However I do see a correlation with the current used model and the system as we have it now. That’s F2P-like model OP is talking about.

Again, unless you PvP as part of your daily routine, then the transmutation charge system does very much appear as something out of a F2P game, and in actuality is worse than what many F2P/Sub-optional/Hybrid MMOs offer. It’s a system that induces grind if you want to keep your look as you level or change it often once you have leveled. Perhaps the idea is to push more people towards outfits, but considering how many games now have some type of system that allows the exterior to be changed relatively easily—individual parts of said exterior, or the whole—via in-game currency or remain static when changing the underlying stats, GW2’s wardrobes/outfits aren’t up to snuff.

Tbh the damage is already done, they don’t care, they don’t listen. To busy focusing on cash shop rather than making a enjoying game which would more rapidly increase their profits in 3 yrs.

1 new pvp modes that’s on rotation?

1 new dungeon path

Tbh this game started out amazing but I feel like all the talented ppl left or got chained to their desk and whipped into making this game a zerg grind fest and changing the community sentiment to not only like it but gobble it up like its kitten turned into wine

Behellagh.1468:

The fundamental problem with MMOs is that the players burn through content quicker than it can be made and released. I find dynamic events still fun after all these years. And I tend to hang around only on three low level maps. And I’m putting in maybe 10 to 20 hours a week if that. Call me odd but I like doing DEs while strip mining maps of their mats unless I’m rushed for time.

I’m not tired of Maw for instance. It’s comfortable and it’s fun seeing all those players in one place. It’s as fun as riding on a same local rollercoaster for the 20th time. It’s old hat but I still enjoy it, well the screams of my fellow passengers.

Hmm, maybe I should roll an Asura next then.

the maw is a really really crappy roller coaster, more like an everyone come here to get tickets redeemable for a prize.

And thats the problem, most of the content has very little innate joy or challenge built in.
even in the theme park, when you have mastered the shooting game, or the skeeball, there is still a feeling of mastery/skill/focus when you do it right. Too many of the rewarding things in GW feel like attendence rewards, or rewarding you for walking 2 miles across the themepark.

So yeah, you will never design a themepark with enough rides, if it is a design that is mostly about seeing something. people will always see everything eventually. It has to also be about compelling experiences, and that is where anet hasnt delivered well enough. Incentivizing/creating compelling experiences.

Slackoth.2108:

Mightybird.6034:

zenleto.6179:

So now paying for non-essential items is considered a grind? Have I read the post right?

I already paid 50 bucks plus tax for the game. Why am I still paying/grinding every time I want some decent/new/change. they are using a f2p model and still charging people.

And don’t give me non-esesential bullcrap. The whole thiing is non essential. Its a game you don’t need any of it.

However, I paid for it and I want that model of an experience out of it. That’s what people expect if they pay for a game.

So i suppose they should just start handing these items out then? Here you go, 50 appearance changes a day, oh you want to rename your character 500 times a day? Sure, here you go.

You got what you paid for, you don’t need ANY of these items to play the game to its full extent. Don’t want to grind? Buy gems, it’s kindergarten logic. You should kitten and be happy that you can get these items without paying real money, and getting gold in gw2 isn’t exactly very hard either.

Not going to lie, GW2 appearance change situation sucks pretty bad. They could expand it a bit to make it more usable without shooting themselves in the wallet…

Make it so you can use transmutation charges (or just make a new rare item you can buy or get from chests) that basically turns a current appearance into an outfit. Then limit how many custom outfit slots you had (maybe around 4 slots not counting the regular outfits you can buy). At that point, you can then swap your look back and forth IF you set it up and then you can buy and use whatever gear you want without changing your look constantly.

IMO, City of Heroes did it the best in that, your appearance wasn’t in any way limited by your gear. You can swap costumes whenever you wanted (and you get a set amount of slots to use but you can buy more) and go to a tailor to change your look in a slot. It encouraged you to make many awesome looks that complemented your character’s profession, style and powers. Most people would have, by default, 4 different costumes, perhaps 1 utilizing their supergroup’s color scheme (a la classic X-Men), or maybe a regular clothes outfit to walk around the city or go to the bar in, maybe a look that had torn clothing appearance so you can look battle scarred if you wanted to look that way after a hard scuffle.

In GW2, you’re very limited. That’s probably why most people just kit themselves out in all the newest junk to look special so everybody’s got wings, glowing particles, weird hats and such. It’s difficult to take a piece (or a set of pieces) that you then build a look around since there is a decent selection of things one could use…but only a limited amount of inventory space and transmutation charges.

I just want to note that the points of view presented are generally as follows: those who say live with it and those who think it needs a fix because it is no where near as robust or accessible as cosmetic systems in other MMOs. There’s no one crying to the heaven’s of their love for this game’s wardrobe system, and in its current state I doubt that many ever will be.

As an aside, locking the dyes to the type of RNG system that exists here isn’t exactly the most inviting either. To have such a great dye application method but such a weak means of acquiring those dyes isn’t the greatest prospect. The customization system here is asleep at the wheel.

Drop rewards and crafting system is what makes the game feel more grindy than heavy grind games…

Prototypemind.4026:

……
There’s no one crying to the heaven’s of their love for this game’s wardrobe system, and in its current state I doubt that many ever will be.
…..

Either you are relatively new player or have a very short memory. The Wardrobe and Dye system are now VASTLY superior to the original ones, but nobody wants to hear about those improvements that every player got for FREE. The only players complaining about the Wardrobe system are those that have not accepted this game’s convention of having to pay for cosmetic alterations. I get it’s something that takes getting used to, but it’s not going to change.

phys.7689:

Behellagh.1468:

The fundamental problem with MMOs is that the players burn through content quicker than it can be made and released. I find dynamic events still fun after all these years. And I tend to hang around only on three low level maps. And I’m putting in maybe 10 to 20 hours a week if that. Call me odd but I like doing DEs while strip mining maps of their mats unless I’m rushed for time.

I’m not tired of Maw for instance. It’s comfortable and it’s fun seeing all those players in one place. It’s as fun as riding on a same local rollercoaster for the 20th time. It’s old hat but I still enjoy it, well the screams of my fellow passengers.

Hmm, maybe I should roll an Asura next then.

the maw is a really really crappy roller coaster, more like an everyone come here to get tickets redeemable for a prize.

And thats the problem, most of the content has very little innate joy or challenge built in.
even in the theme park, when you have mastered the shooting game, or the skeeball, there is still a feeling of mastery/skill/focus when you do it right. Too many of the rewarding things in GW feel like attendence rewards, or rewarding you for walking 2 miles across the themepark.

So yeah, you will never design a themepark with enough rides, if it is a design that is mostly about seeing something. people will always see everything eventually. It has to also be about compelling experiences, and that is where anet hasnt delivered well enough. Incentivizing/creating compelling experiences.

It all boils down to who ANet was targeting with the game. Let’s assume they were shooting for a casual audience, which is kind of supported by the extreme lengths they went to stress a co-op environment in PvE. What’s a casual player? Someone who can only play a couple of days a week? Someone who can only play 1/2 an hour a night? If you design your content to be friendly to that group, encounters that take no more than 15 minutes to do, then yeah, someone who plays 4 hours daily will see all that as a grind. It’s a string of mini games with a cookie at the end or as you suggested skee-ball tickets they can collect to cash in for crappy items.

Sure we have a few dungeons and fractals for longer play. We have Orr as a series of interlocking metas events to unlock temples. We have Teq. So you can do a bunch of short content for mostly useless items for a level 80 or you can do a few longer content for bigger rewards. Either way you will end up doing the same thing over and over and over again if you are a regular player with long game sessions. Voila, content grind.

That’s why LSs ran four weeks yet only have a day or two of content for hardcore players. The whole game is targeted to casuals who can’t play as frequently or as long but can open their wallet to buy gems.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Prototypemind.4026:

……
There’s no one crying to the heaven’s of their love for this game’s wardrobe system, and in its current state I doubt that many ever will be.
…..

Either you are relatively new player or have a very short memory. The Wardrobe and Dye system are now VASTLY superior to the original ones, but nobody wants to hear about those improvements that every player got for FREE. The only players complaining about the Wardrobe system are those that have not accepted this game’s convention of having to pay for cosmetic alterations. I get it’s something that takes getting used to, but it’s not going to change.

One can still accept something but still think it’s kitten and crap and should be improved. Like I’ve accepted that I probably will only have 1, maybe 2, looks for a character and only ever bother changing that look to update a particular skin I like. I’ve accepted that most players will look like a mish-mash of random skins because it doesn’t take into consideration the player’s desire to build around specific pieces. And I’ve accepted that, if I decide to change my character’s look, it precludes doing extra stuff like PvP I might not feel like doing or map completion.

The thing I don’t get is, they created a system for comsetic changes (and the gem store in general) so that you can grind to change your character’s appearance but at the same time, made it clunky and unintuitive for people that decide to use cash to “pay for convenience”. Ultimately, it’s not convenient and limiting at the same time.

Again, I’ve accepted all that, but compared to other games, GW2 leaves a lot to be desired (among them being more variety of skins).

I bought GW2 because a friend of mine has been playing it on and off for a few years now, and always seems to return back for more content. So, I had to try it, because MMO’s I’ve played before weren’t attracting me anymore and were mostly Pay-to-win games. I was pleasantly surprised how easy and fluently story and leveling goes on, that you don’t need to buy items from mall to get better and that you actually have quite equal ground with more seasoned players.
OP just never had to endure 10+ hour grinds of games like MapleStory, Tales of Pirates 2 and many more I’ve tried over the years.
GW2 gives you option to put in some time and effort into game, so you can buy desired item from their item mall for your hard earned gold, an option that wasnt present in any MMO I’ve ever played.

Am I the only one that has just never ever run out of transmutation charges? I have 8 toons, change various stuff every week or so, and still have a bank of well over 100. It’s never been something I’ve even had to think about.

Leo G.4501:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Prototypemind.4026:

……
There’s no one crying to the heaven’s of their love for this game’s wardrobe system, and in its current state I doubt that many ever will be.
…..

Either you are relatively new player or have a very short memory. The Wardrobe and Dye system are now VASTLY superior to the original ones, but nobody wants to hear about those improvements that every player got for FREE. The only players complaining about the Wardrobe system are those that have not accepted this game’s convention of having to pay for cosmetic alterations. I get it’s something that takes getting used to, but it’s not going to change.

One can still accept something but still think it’s kitten and crap and should be improved. Like I’ve accepted that I probably will only have 1, maybe 2, looks for a character and only ever bother changing that look to update a particular skin I like. I’ve accepted that most players will look like a mish-mash of random skins because it doesn’t take into consideration the player’s desire to build around specific pieces. And I’ve accepted that, if I decide to change my character’s look, it precludes doing extra stuff like PvP I might not feel like doing or map completion.

The thing I don’t get is, they created a system for comsetic changes (and the gem store in general) so that you can grind to change your character’s appearance but at the same time, made it clunky and unintuitive for people that decide to use cash to “pay for convenience”. Ultimately, it’s not convenient and limiting at the same time.

Again, I’ve accepted all that, but compared to other games, GW2 leaves a lot to be desired (among them being more variety of skins).

Leo has hit the nail directly on the head. I said nothing about the current system not being an improvement over the old one, I said no one is singing its praises in comparison to other games. Let’s do some quick side-by-sides. Assuming a player has $40 to spend, we get the following:

SWTOR: $40 Will get you two months worth of sub time with $10 left over. You could also simply play as preferred after spending money in the Cartel Store and use all the money on the outfit of your choice to play in and various unlocks for your character. You have an included wardrobe tab where you can place whatever outfit you like as your cosmetic appearance, which will remain unchanged as you level regardless of the armor changes you make as you upgrade your ‘active’ stats. You may alter the cosmetic tab as you like, or purchase additional ones for Cartel Coins.

TERA: $40 will get you a number of outfits to choose from. Unfortunately like GW2, those outfits can’t be mixed and matched any longer. That said, you have $40 to spend as you like on those cosmetic pieces.

Vindictus: $40 will get you a number of complete outfits which can be mixed and matched with others, or your selection of whatever pieces you like from different outfits. You may swap out purchased avatar outfits at any time you like, and may toggle their appearance between the armor your character has equipped and those outfit pieces at your whim. You can also fuse the appearance of different in-game items with one another to keep the stats of one and the look of the other.

LOTRO: $40 will get you additional wardrobe unlocks, with their appearance remaining independent of the underlying stats pieces.

Guild Wars 2: $40 will get you the game. If you want additional transmutation charges so that you can keep your appearance set to gem store armor—which itself is an additional cost—you will have to PvP, grind out map completion, or pay real money. This system does, in fact, work on the old standby of F2P MMOs where it’s much more appealing to spend real money so that time in-game can be focused on playing rather than grinding undesired content so that enjoyable content can be more immersive/entertaining later. Unfortunately, GW2 is not F2P, so there’s that petty annoyance as well.

wwwes.1398:

Am I the only one that has just never ever run out of transmutation charges? I have 8 toons, change various stuff every week or so, and still have a bank of well over 100. It’s never been something I’ve even had to think about.

Level multiple toons at once without PvPing and you will either be spending real money to keep up or doing map completions that in no way relate to your current story for the charges. I was updating my armor every 15 levels and had to scrap that because the charges just weren’t sufficient. I instead just ground out levels in dungeons where my gear would be adequate starting around 50 and didn’t touch story again until I hit 80 so that I wouldn’t have to walk around in a mismatched set or keep doing map completion.

victhewizard.1023:

I bought GW2 because a friend of mine has been playing it on and off for a few years now, and always seems to return back for more content. So, I had to try it, because MMO’s I’ve played before weren’t attracting me anymore and were mostly Pay-to-win games. I was pleasantly surprised how easy and fluently story and leveling goes on, that you don’t need to buy items from mall to get better and that you actually have quite equal ground with more seasoned players.
OP just never had to endure 10+ hour grinds of games like MapleStory, Tales of Pirates 2 and many more I’ve tried over the years.
GW2 gives you option to put in some time and effort into game, so you can buy desired item from their item mall for your hard earned gold, an option that wasnt present in any MMO I’ve ever played.

Nobody here claims it’s P2W, but in many F2P MMO’s that are not P2W you still see a boring grind for cosmetics (what for many people is just as, or even more important than stats / p2w items) and that is the same grind he feels here and complains about.

You seem to forget that this game was supposed to be a B2P game, so a game that makes it money with the game-sales (while that will likely not be sufficient when you don’t release your first expansion until 3 years after release) and so it should not be like those other F2P games that are completely dependent on the cash-shop, the comparison is wrong. Besides that, something is not good, simply because there are others that are even worse.

wwwes.1398:

Am I the only one that has just never ever run out of transmutation charges? I have 8 toons, change various stuff every week or so, and still have a bank of well over 100. It’s never been something I’ve even had to think about.

I doubt you’re the only one. Still doesn’t change the fact the system pales in comparison to others.

Prototypemind.4026:

The way real money to in-game return works in this game is just very poorly done compared to others. Some games can get away with having a system where what you buy with cash stays yours because they take in a monthly sub, but this game doesn’t and it needs to make the reward for spending real money more lucrative. One oddity is the BL Chests themselves.

In most other games that rely on cash-shop revenue, there are new boxes made for each item set release, said boxes are bought from the cash shop, and there’s no additional RNG luck needed to obtain keys to open them. If the equivalent were here in this game, boxes containing a number of the currently-unobtainable skins would still be purchasable through the gem store and could be resold on the TP for in-game currency. The way Anet’s system works, wanted skins go out of circulation for too long and they lose out on money, both from players trying to get the items themselves and from players who want to turn their gems into gold, something that they’d see a higher return on through the TP than buying gems and turning them into gold through the additional TP feature.

Secondly, this is the only MMO that I’ve played or researched lately that has such a horrid system for maintaining a customized appearance as you play. There are F2Ps that have 30-day cosmetic features as well as permanent, but none making top dollars that I know of where you literally have to pay real cash as you level or play as the devs denote—PvP for your transmutation charges, do map completion, or wait until your log in rewards build up—just to maintain your toon’s look from start to end game.

Again, let’s note that completely P2W games like World of Tanks and that out-of-nowhere eastern Counter-Strike clone obliterate Guild Wars 2 in terms of revenue and profit. Games like Star Wars: The Old Republic take in a large percentage of their income through the cash shop as well, and generally put some of the best looking items on said cash-shop. I do prefer a balance of both in-game and cash shop acquired cosmetic gear, so I take it where I can get it.

The bottom line is that when players literally have to stop their leveling, PvP, questing, etc. experience in order to get more charges so that they can keep a desired look when changing armor, it becomes either an annoyance. Both having to buy more gems or giving into the grind because of the need to do side content that the player doesn’t want to do in order to gain more trans charges take away from the gaming experience.

SWTOR: rip mods, put in new ones, outer appearance stays the same. They also just recently added a costume tab so that if an entirely new piece is desired the base armor can be switched and the outer look remains unchanged; LOTRO: costume tabs; WoW: acquire trans charges for little in-game gold; Vindictus and Black Desert: purchased outfits remain as cosmetic outers no matter what armor they player swaps to if they keep them visibly toggled. In Vindictus lower-level armors can be fused with other sets to maintain a look as armor is upgraded.

If players could buy all the sets they liked for this game, or acquire all the sets they like in-game, and change them more easily it would be beneficial. Buying outfits should not be the only way this can be accomplished.

I have to agree with you on your points. The system here leaves alot to be desired especially in the box and cosmetic systems in place and that lack of interest in a properly done box system ensures that their profits will be low but they often do things that ensures their profits will be low in the first place I’ve noticed. For example, their loot system, taking out the fun of feeling rewarded for your time pretty much ensures that people won’t be logging in because the whole point of gaming is to capture that feeling of the rewarding experience, there’s been several papers written on it over several years now. You mentioned LOTRO in your list and it was awesome having such an old title give you slots you can open with cash or points to give yourself multiple outfits, I’ve not seen another mmo do that yet.

So in one way they do seem like it’s a cheap F2P in the way they do things in another way, the successful F2P economic model is not being followed to this game’s detriment which is really sad.

None of those game you mentioned started as F2P and still all have “premium” tiers so they are not strictly F2P nor need to follow a F2P model 100%. They have OTHER sources of income. GW2 does not and was modeled that way from day one.

Considering those games that have an F2P mode as true F2P games (with “successful” F2P economic models) as equivalent to what GW2 has been all along is simply not factual at all.

I guess cause gw2 end game is the Barbie dress up cash shop so I can see where you are coming from. There really isn’t much cosmetic gear rewards for completing challenging content. There is no oh that guy has sweet armor from beating that raid boss it’s just open your wallet or exchange gold to gems for cosmetics that aren’t even relevant to the current story.

wwwes.1398:

Am I the only one that has just never ever run out of transmutation charges? I have 8 toons, change various stuff every week or so, and still have a bank of well over 100. It’s never been something I’ve even had to think about.

Disparate experience is at least partially based on disparate choices. Consider, if you will, the player who likes having a certain look for a character while leveling. Also assume they change gear every ~6 levels. With changing 4 armor pieces and 4 weapons each time, just going from 14-74 would take 80 charges. Leveling content is unlikely to replace that many. Back in the old days, it seemed I got more of the lesser charges than I used up changing gear that often. With the current charges, I don’t seem to get as many.

I also don’t run out of charges, but it’s because I tend not to use them while leveling. Instead, I’ve gotten 3-4 outfits and use those instead, and will often either live with the weapon skin or use a Hall of M skin. That works for me, but using that many charges per alt? Not so much.

It’s not that bad, I can live with it, but I would classify it as a mild aggravation.

RoRo.8270:

I guess cause gw2 end game is the Barbie dress up cash shop so I can see where you are coming from. There really isn’t much cosmetic gear rewards for completing challenging content. There is no oh that guy has sweet armor from beating that raid boss it’s just open your wallet or exchange gold to gems for cosmetics that aren’t even relevant to the current story.

I just wanted to clarify my stance on the subject. While I agree with the quoted, the gem shop, cosmetics and such I can easily live with.

What I don’t care much for though is when skins or outfits are released and it might have potential to make a look for, there is no support in utilizing it. Two examples: the new daydreamer outfit, maybe I want to use it on a character but with the lack of ability to customize it, you either use it all or none so likely would only use it for one specific character. Two, a new Armor skin comes out and I like it for one of my characters. . . But I like the look my character has now. If I want to keep my old look and use the new skin I either burn transmutation charges every time I want to swap looks, or carry a whole other set of Armor sacrificing inventory space. Just imagine if I saw 3+ Armor styles I want for my character! That gets into territory where it’s simply easier to make a whole new character instead.

In many other games where customization is encouraged, changing your look and using multiple looks is far simpler thus feeling encouraged to do so. In GW2, I feel encouraged to find a single look I like and stick with it which seems to run counter to their introduction of gem store cosmetics. If they want you to incorporate more gem store looks into your character, it’s better to start with a system that also encourages you to do so.