Guild Wars 2

Stobor.8041:

mrsrachelm.7618:

Stobor.8041:

And i hope people that do end up with disabilities realize that they are not equal with other people..

That says a lot about you right there.

No, in fact it doesnt. There are special institutions for people with disabilities. All of the world realizes that disabled people have less possibilities but you think otherwise. In fact if you think that a person with trisomy 21 is not inferior to a normal person it says a lot about you. 99% of people that bought the game shouldn’t suffer because of 1%.

yes in fact it does, because you are the guy who doesn’t want a video game jumping puzzle to be easier because a person with a disability isn’t as good as you at it.

Wouldn’t toning down the difficulty for the disabled be a slap in the face to them either way? You’re basically saying “Here you go. We made this easier just for you ‘cause you don’t have what it takes.”

There’s a disabled player in the Street Fighter community who plays with his kittening tongue and face and Capcom hasn’t shown any signs of making the game more accessible to him. And he frequents tournaments, where the best of the best play.

There’s a disabled player who plays GW2 PvP with a pen in his mouth and does well. ANet hasn’t catered the game around him either.

Thanks, I’ll give that a try.

Kaon Lowe.7218:

yes in fact it does, because you are the guy who doesn’t want a video game jumping puzzle to be easier because a person with a disability isn’t as good as you at it.

Correct im the guy who “doesn’t want a video game jumping puzzle to be easier”.

RenRen.5706:

Wouldn’t toning down the difficulty for the disabled be a slap in the face to them either way? You’re basically saying “Here you go. We made this easier just for you ‘cause you don’t have what it takes.”

There’s a disabled player in the Street Fighter community who plays with his kittening mouth and face and Capcom hasn’t shown any signs of making the game more accessible to him.

There’s a disabled player who plays GW2 PvP with a pen in his mouth and does well. ANet hasn’t catered the game around him either.

Would adding a timer free practice mode slap the players who already cleared it? would running it alone instead of with random people slap them? Would having the camera actually work for the charr instead of always spazzing out at the same point at the start of the event make slap them?

Even if you like the puzzle, running it with a group I think does more harm than good. i’ve had no less than three Asura cuss at me for being a charr, and two people asking me to remove all my armor because I block their view.

Kaon Lowe.7218:

Stobor.8041:

mrsrachelm.7618:

Stobor.8041:

And i hope people that do end up with disabilities realize that they are not equal with other people..

That says a lot about you right there.

No, in fact it doesnt. There are special institutions for people with disabilities. All of the world realizes that disabled people have less possibilities but you think otherwise. In fact if you think that a person with trisomy 21 is not inferior to a normal person it says a lot about you. 99% of people that bought the game shouldn’t suffer because of 1%.

yes in fact it does, because you are the guy who doesn’t want a video game jumping puzzle to be easier because a person with a disability isn’t as good as you at it.

I have a friend with arachnophobia, shall we remove the spiders from the halloween content aswell? Or make them look less spider-like?

lol

The amount of QQ is ridiculous.

It was meant to be hard. I took almost 2 hours to do it, same for some people I know. Yes, people get in the way. I did all my runs alongside a lovely max-sized male Norn. Yes, this is so hard that some people might never be able to do it due to whatever reason. TOO BAD. Not everything in the game is going to be free wins to everyone who tries. Get used to hard content because I hope they come out with more stuff like this.

Stobor.8041:

Kaon Lowe.7218:

yes in fact it does, because you are the guy who doesn’t want a video game jumping puzzle to be easier because a person with a disability isn’t as good as you at it.

Correct im the guy who “doesn’t want a video game jumping puzzle to be easier”.

And like I said in the previous post, even if you DO like the event as is, it has real annoyances and grievances people have that are worth listening, not just auto ignoring them because insecurity won’t let you believe anything can be too hard to be fun for others.

A timer free practice doesn’t hurt you, nor would it reward people who weren’t good enough, but it would give unsure people practice. Running it alone doesn’t hurt you, it removes giant characters blocking an asura players view making him have a harder time than anyone one else because of a choice he made months ago.. Fighting the camera isn’t part of the puzzle, it’s an annoyance you have to succeed in spite of.

At three am still haven’t succeed, will try maybe another hour then see if I feel like bothering anymore.

The worst part in all of this, isn’t complaints with the puzzle (I have them and so do others) it isn’t the fact the people who like it as is are being belittling to the people who don’t (most of them just don’t want to lose the sense of accomplishment they had clearing it, an understandable thing.) it’s that this thing as is makes the playerbase meaner, and more jerkish just because you have to run it as a group.

one guy just now tried to demand I leave, and then demanded I unistall the game entirely because of this fact. it’s annoying and sad that just the fact this optional event brings that kind of annoyance to people, and no one thinks there may be some ground to the ‘maybe we should be running this solo’ arguement

RenRen.5706:

Wouldn’t toning down the difficulty for the disabled be a slap in the face to them either way? You’re basically saying “Here you go. We made this easier just for you ‘cause you don’t have what it takes.”

There’s a disabled player in the Street Fighter community who plays with his kittening tongue and face and Capcom hasn’t shown any signs of making the game more accessible to him. And he frequents tournaments, where the best of the best play.

There’s a disabled player who plays GW2 PvP with a pen in his mouth and does well. ANet hasn’t catered the game around him either.

If I may say so, what feels like a slap to me is seeing all these comments about how you just need to work on your skill or deal with it.

There are many things a disabled person has to deal with that someone without a disability can’t possibly understand, because they’re things that never need to occur to them. For instance, going up stairs is a simple task if you can walk perfectly, but if you can’t or are in a wheelchair, the level of difficulty is increased tremendously.

So what’s a difficult puzzle for someone without a disability becomes an even more difficult puzzle for someone with one.

Likewise, someone with a disability has to develop skills someone without doesn’t in order to get around their disability – for instance, playing with their tongue and face, or playing with a pen. These extra skills take time to master – longer than the couple of days during which this puzzle is available.

People with a disability are already constantly reminded of their limitations by everyday tasks. It’s harsh when something in a game – which is a thing you do for fun – pokes the wound, so to speak.

I’m not saying we should dumb it down, it’s frustrating but not the end of the world to be unable to do it. But the lack of empathy some people here display is astounding. It couldn’t hurt to at least be more understanding of the fact some people just aren’t as dexterous as others, so this isn’t as fun for them, but they would have liked to be able to do it regardless.

Stobor.8041:

There are special institutions for people with disabilities. All of the world realizes that disabled people have less possibilities but you think otherwise. In fact if you think that a person with trisomy 21 is not inferior to a normal person it says a lot about you.

“Special institutions for people with disabilities”
“if you think a person with trisomy21 is not inferior to a normal person…”

People with disabilities do not need to be institutionalized. What era are you from exactly with this type of mind set? You do know, or maybe you don’t, that people with various disabilities hold down full time jobs, have families, pay taxes, and so on.

And no, a person with Down’s Syndrome (aka trimosy21) is NOT “inferior” to me and knowing that -does- say a lot about me just as thinking they -are- “inferior” to you says even more about you. I can’t report you enough for your disparaging remarks about people with disabilities in general and those who play this game specifically.

neon.4863:

If I may say so, what feels like a slap to me is seeing all these comments about how you just need to work on your skill or deal with it.

There are many things a disabled person has to deal with that someone without a disability can’t possibly understand, because they’re things that never need to occur to them. For instance, going up stairs is a simple task if you can walk perfectly, but if you can’t or are in a wheelchair, the level of difficulty is increased tremendously.

So what’s a difficult puzzle for someone without a disability becomes an even more difficult puzzle for someone with one.

Likewise, someone with a disability has to develop skills someone without doesn’t in order to get around their disability – for instance, playing with their tongue and face, or playing with a pen. These extra skills take time to master – longer than the couple of days during which this puzzle is available.

People with a disability are already constantly reminded of their limitations by everyday tasks. It’s harsh when something in a game – which is a thing you do for fun – pokes the wound, so to speak.

I’m not saying we should dumb it down, it’s frustrating but not the end of the world to be unable to do it. But the lack of empathy some people here display is astounding. It couldn’t hurt to at least be more understanding of the fact some people just aren’t as dexterous as others, so this isn’t as fun for them, but they would have liked to be able to do it regardless.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure not every person with a disability is mentally moping and secretly cursing the world for “reminding” them of their disability. Long story, incoming:

All that stuff aside, people need to realize everything isn’t going to be dumbed down to their level of incompetence or inability so they can succeed. Yeah, it’s a game where we all come to have fun. Some people enjoy a challenge, others apparently do not… I honestly don’t even understand how you can feel pride in achieving something after it’s been dumbed down especially for you… hell, I’d be insulted. The only thing of worth this thread is providing, which mrsrachelm.7618 pointed out surprisingly, is feedback for the dev teams for future updates.

But hey, to each their own I suppose. All for camera fixes and player blocking fixes, still against any proposed nerfs.

Edited some clarification, also forgot to expand on a line I wrote, lol.

mrsrachelm.7618:

Stobor.8041:

There are special institutions for people with disabilities. All of the world realizes that disabled people have less possibilities but you think otherwise. In fact if you think that a person with trisomy 21 is not inferior to a normal person it says a lot about you.

“Special institutions for people with disabilities”
“if you think a person with trisomy21 is not inferior…”

People with disabilities do not need to be institutionalized. What era are you from exactly with this type of mind set?

And no, a person with Down’s Syndrome (aka trimosy21) is NOT “inferior” to me and knowing that -does- say a lot about me just as thinking they -are- “inferior” to you says even more about you. I can’t report you enough for your disparaging remarks about people with disabilities in general and those who play this game specifically.

I also have reported him. His comments are offensive to say the least.

Xuro.5861:

@SolarNova.

Like I stated above, I don’t mind a challenge when it’s a permanent puzzle but this is a limited time event, meaning that the pressure is quite big as it’s a one thing only (unless they recycle it next year).

I hope that they use this kind of difficulty for future puzzles, so you and the other gifted people have something to aim for, but I do also hope they consider that this is a holiday event and will adjust it properly for everyone to enjoy.

The Olympics are a limited time event also! Let’s give out 7 billion gold medals! Why not give out 7 billion medals of honor?? Like I said to another post, try to take no offense from this, but some things are not for everyone!

neon.4863:

RenRen.5706:

Wouldn’t toning down the difficulty for the disabled be a slap in the face to them either way? You’re basically saying “Here you go. We made this easier just for you ‘cause you don’t have what it takes.”

There’s a disabled player in the Street Fighter community who plays with his kittening tongue and face and Capcom hasn’t shown any signs of making the game more accessible to him. And he frequents tournaments, where the best of the best play.

There’s a disabled player who plays GW2 PvP with a pen in his mouth and does well. ANet hasn’t catered the game around him either.

If I may say so, what feels like a slap to me is seeing all these comments about how you just need to work on your skill or deal with it.

There are many things a disabled person has to deal with that someone without a disability can’t possibly understand, because they’re things that never need to occur to them. For instance, going up stairs is a simple task if you can walk perfectly, but if you can’t or are in a wheelchair, the level of difficulty is increased tremendously.

So what’s a difficult puzzle for someone without a disability becomes an even more difficult puzzle for someone with one.

Likewise, someone with a disability has to develop skills someone without doesn’t in order to get around their disability – for instance, playing with their tongue and face, or playing with a pen. These extra skills take time to master – longer than the couple of days during which this puzzle is available.

People with a disability are already constantly reminded of their limitations by everyday tasks. It’s harsh when something in a game – which is a thing you do for fun – pokes the wound, so to speak.

I’m not saying we should dumb it down, it’s frustrating but not the end of the world to be unable to do it. But the lack of empathy some people here display is astounding. It couldn’t hurt to at least be more understanding of the fact some people just aren’t as dexterous as others, so this isn’t as fun for them, but they would have liked to be able to do it regardless.

I cannot applaud this comment enough. This is why making the puzzle instanced, not timed, and available in different difficult levels would be the answer for everyone. It will be ultra hard for those who can or want to do it that way (and with the rewards to match) and less so for people who merely want the achievement based on the level of difficulty they choose. No one is left out.

While the JP reminds me on what happens when you mix classic mario jumping with sonic speed in an acid pit (fun times chemical plant zone). I would agree with a slight speed nerf but at the same time I enjoy the puzzle because of the nostalgia of old NES titles that had the same “Deal with it” difficulty. But the leetists that finished the puzzle going against the nerf need to remember this is an MMO Rpg and not Major League Gaming. There are other people with a different skill level than most some lower and some higher. The best that most of the “completers” should do is help out the weaker people instead of telling them how much they suck at a game to fill their kittens.

Kitten kitten kitten kitten kitten (just because that is a funny thing to say.)

Cyric.7485:

Yeah, I’m pretty sure not every person with a disability is mentally moping and secretly cursing the world for “reminding” them of their disability. Long story, incoming:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

I dated a girl whose right arm stopped growing at the elbow when she was in the womb, so she essentially had to learn to do everything with her left hand… because she didn’t have a right hand. When asked, she would tell me that she didn’t really mind at that stage in her life (late 20s) because she’d gotten used to it long ago. However, she understood that I had questions and she was pleasantly obliged to humor them. What she didn’t like was people making nasty comments or jokes (playful or otherwise) to her, for instance, she went on a blind date once with this guy who left her at the restaurant and told her he was “looking for a whole woman” and that really got to her. Otherwise, she was as happy as anybody else…

All that stuff aside, people need to realize everything isn’t going to be dumbed down to their level of incompetence so they can succeed. Yeah, it’s a game where we all come to have fun. I honestly don’t even understand how you can feel pride in achieving something after it’s been dumbed down especially for you… hell, I’d be insulted. The only thing of worth this thread is providing, which mrsrachelm pointed out surprisingly, is feedback for the dev teams for future updates.

But hey, to each their own I suppose. All for camera fixes and player blocking fixes, still against any proposed nerfs.

I didn’t say every person with a disability is doing that. What I am saying is that the lack of consideration for the people who are here, right now, saying they’re not skilled enough, due to a disability or otherwise, is astounding.

Also, people have different opinions. What would be insulting to you could be inclusive to someone else.

I don’t think a nerf should be in order – I think this level of challenge should be available to those who want it. But telling people who aren’t skilled enough to do it (but would like to) to suck it up is unnecessarily harsh. Being more inclusive – which could be done just by making the puzzle available permanently – would not hurt those who are really good at it. It’d just make those who are less good at it able to get it done, too. Eventually.

I don’t understand why the discussion has shifted to disabled gamers. Obviously the notion that the difficulty should be lowered to cater to disabled gamers is ridiculous – where do you stop? Do you then cater it to toddlers? Do you start catering it to gamers with greater degrees of disability? Say you make it so people with a slight disability can complete it. Oh, here’s a gamer with an even more debilitating condition, and since you lowered the difficulty for the previous group of gamers you have to do it again! Eventually all games will be at the level where infant monkeys rolling their faces on a keyboard can beat it.

This is not a problem of discrimination but the fact that you CAN’T design content without having a TARGET AUDIENCE. This particular piece of content was DESIGNED to be difficult and requiring a certain degree of dexterity and coordination. By design, not the entire playing population will be able to complete it. Bringing in disability as an argument to attempt to lower the difficulty of something DESIGNED to be difficult is…silly. It was never MEANT to be able to be done by everyone.

And obviously, there’s no offense meant to any disabled gamers struggling with this very difficult content. I don’t see anywhere in this thread where people specifically singled out disabled gamers as “inferior” or “unskilled” but such opinion should obviously not be condoned. My point is simply that one cannot expect all content to be scaled down for the benefit of any particular group of players, I hope that’s clear.

AlecFair.1270:

While the JP reminds me on what happens when you mix classic mario jumping with sonic speed in an acid pit (fun times chemical plant zone). I would agree with a slight speed nerf but at the same time I enjoy the puzzle because of the nostalgia of old NES titles that had the same “Deal with it” difficulty. But the leetists that finished the puzzle going against the nerf need to remember this is an MMO Rpg and not Major League Gaming. There are other people with a different skill level than most some lower and some higher. The best that most of the “completers” should do is help out the weaker people instead of telling them how much they suck at a game to fill their kittens.

Kitten kitten kitten kitten kitten (just because that is a funny thing to say.)

Someone with perspective. How refreshing. Good on you!

neon.4863:

I didn’t say every person with a disability is doing that. What I am saying is that the lack of consideration for the people who are here, right now, saying they’re not skilled enough, due to a disability or otherwise, is astounding.

Also, people have different opinions. What would be insulting to you could be inclusive to someone else.

I don’t think a nerf should be in order – I think this level of challenge should be available to those who want it. But telling people who aren’t skilled enough to do it (but would like to) to suck it up is unnecessarily harsh. Being more inclusive – which could be done just by making the puzzle available permanently – would not hurt those who are really good at it. It’d just make those who are less good at it able to get it done, too. Eventually.

Hey, I’m all for making it permanent also, I think the Mad King’s Realm is absolutely terrific. I just think it’s a slap in the face to people (like myself) who possess the necessary skill to accomplish this and get the achievement, then turn around and remake it for toddlers so everyone else can get the same achievement too. Once again, I don’t understand the sense of accomplishment in it… if I wasn’t able to do it, I’d probably just say screw it, it’s not worth the points and move on.

Only part that is difficult is the beginning because somehow all the norns/charr (that picked the largest height) can’t seem to finish so they screw everyone else over by blocking your vision. Once they fail the rest is a piece of cake.
Beat this thing with each of my toons to get them shoes, but I loved how it was hard to get the hang of it. First time reaching the end took easily an hour of dying over and over and over again. Wouldn’t you rather feel like you accomplished a difficult task rather than have it handed to you in a silver plater?
I rather not have achievements such as “Congrats you learned to use your mouse, have a cookie”.

ykyk.2740:

I don’t understand why the discussion has shifted to disabled gamers. Obviously the notion that the difficulty should be lowered to cater to disabled gamers is ridiculous – where do you stop? Do you then cater it to toddlers? Do you start catering it to gamers with greater degrees of disability? Say you make it so people with a slight disability can complete it. Oh, here’s a gamer with an even more debilitating condition, and since you lowered the difficulty for the previous group of gamers you have to do it again! Eventually all games will be at the level where infant monkeys rolling their faces on a keyboard can beat it.

This is not a problem of discrimination but the fact that you CAN’T design content without having a TARGET AUDIENCE. This particular piece of content was DESIGNED to be difficult and requiring a certain degree of dexterity and coordination. By design, not the entire playing population will be able to complete it. Bringing in disability as an argument to attempt to lower the difficulty of something DESIGNED to be difficult is…silly. It was never MEANT to be able to be done by everyone.

Obviously you are only reading the parts of the discussion you want to read and missing the whole offered solution where EVERYONE is made happy by offering difficulty levels, either grouped or solo, timed or not timed, in an instanced puzzle zone for holiday puzzles along with a sliding scale of rewards to go with the level of difficulty. See? Simple. EVERYONE is happy. The “target audience” should be the player base not just a small portion of the player base. Especially in a F2P game where maintaining the highest number of active players is key to profits.

Unless certain people can ONLY be happy if they get to puff out their chests and say “I did it and YOU can’t! Neener neener neener!”?

You guys are insane. It took me about an hour and a half to get to chest the first time. I’ve done it maybe 200+ times by now. I’ve been farming it for tot bags. It really is easy. It just takes PRACTICE.

See now, here is my issue with this puzzle after four hours of repeated failure and only ever managing to get half way at most.

1) Mixing together the requirement of impeccable alongside waiting.
If you want to have me do a puzzle that really does require me to complete it at a very specific pace, and being as much as two seconds off in areas is going to kill me? I’m actually cool with that. That’s fine.

Until you force me to wait for a minute if I fail, and until you force me to wait for twenty seconds after I get some semblance of a rhythm going, throwing it off again.

I really don’t mind the timer on its own, but combined with the amount of waiting that you will see over repeated failures if you aren’t the UberJumpMaster and the brief wait before the puzzle “really” starts just makes it incredibly frustrating. Please, take this waiting out. (I’m not asking you to make the timer nicer, notice. I’m just asking you to remove the waits, because compared to the amount of timing accuracy the puzzle demands from you, they are long.)

2) Other players.

Mad King’s Clocktower would have worked really well as a storymode like instance. Want to do it with friends? Party.

Otherwise, do it solo.

The fact that Charr and Norn can horribly obscure views and that the initial swarm of characters can be incredibly distracting really isn’t appropriate for a puzzle that really does demand you keep time, allowing a margin of failure that has to max at two seconds. Any slower and you are not going to succeed. While I enjoyed doing this with my friends, I didn’t enjoy being griefed by randoms I don’t care about (not even from my own home server since I was on an overflow!) and being repeatedly told to either leave, take off my armour or outright quit made the experience less enjoyable than it should have been.

I’m not asking for a nerf. I’m not asking them to make this puzzle easymode.

I am asking them to consider the fact this was clearly not tested with any more than two or three people doing the puzzle at once.

(The fewer people doing the puzzle, the less time the wait to restart upon failure. If all players in the instance fail and require a restart, the timer flies by much faster. Fewer players increases the chance of success, and also often means that you either all succeed or you all fail, and rarely in between.)

That’s seriously all I want. Take out the waits, take out the people, and I’d be happy to hammer away at this puzzle until I actually beat it. But four hours of abuse from other players really does take the fun out of a special event that I would really like to complete before it disappears for a whole year. :<

And if you can’t complete it? Big deal! You don’t get the Mad King slippers. It’s not the end of the world like you guys are making it out to be.

mrsrachelm.7618:

ykyk.2740:

I don’t understand why the discussion has shifted to disabled gamers. Obviously the notion that the difficulty should be lowered to cater to disabled gamers is ridiculous – where do you stop? Do you then cater it to toddlers? Do you start catering it to gamers with greater degrees of disability? Say you make it so people with a slight disability can complete it. Oh, here’s a gamer with an even more debilitating condition, and since you lowered the difficulty for the previous group of gamers you have to do it again! Eventually all games will be at the level where infant monkeys rolling their faces on a keyboard can beat it.

This is not a problem of discrimination but the fact that you CAN’T design content without having a TARGET AUDIENCE. This particular piece of content was DESIGNED to be difficult and requiring a certain degree of dexterity and coordination. By design, not the entire playing population will be able to complete it. Bringing in disability as an argument to attempt to lower the difficulty of something DESIGNED to be difficult is…silly. It was never MEANT to be able to be done by everyone.

Obviously you are only reading the parts of the discussion you want to read and missing the whole offered solution where EVERYONE is made happy by offering difficulty levels, either grouped or solo, timed or not timed, in an instanced puzzle zone for holiday puzzles along with a sliding scale of rewards to go with the level of difficulty. See? Simple. EVERYONE is happy. Unless certain people can ONLY be happy if they get to puff out their chests and say “I did it and YOU can’t! Neener neener neener!”?

Unless, of course, the content was designed so that certain people can do it while others can’t. That was sort of my point. Some people don’t want an easy mode option.

ykyk.2740:

mrsrachelm.7618:

ykyk.2740:

I don’t understand why the discussion has shifted to disabled gamers. Obviously the notion that the difficulty should be lowered to cater to disabled gamers is ridiculous – where do you stop? Do you then cater it to toddlers? Do you start catering it to gamers with greater degrees of disability? Say you make it so people with a slight disability can complete it. Oh, here’s a gamer with an even more debilitating condition, and since you lowered the difficulty for the previous group of gamers you have to do it again! Eventually all games will be at the level where infant monkeys rolling their faces on a keyboard can beat it.

This is not a problem of discrimination but the fact that you CAN’T design content without having a TARGET AUDIENCE. This particular piece of content was DESIGNED to be difficult and requiring a certain degree of dexterity and coordination. By design, not the entire playing population will be able to complete it. Bringing in disability as an argument to attempt to lower the difficulty of something DESIGNED to be difficult is…silly. It was never MEANT to be able to be done by everyone.

Obviously you are only reading the parts of the discussion you want to read and missing the whole offered solution where EVERYONE is made happy by offering difficulty levels, either grouped or solo, timed or not timed, in an instanced puzzle zone for holiday puzzles along with a sliding scale of rewards to go with the level of difficulty. See? Simple. EVERYONE is happy. Unless certain people can ONLY be happy if they get to puff out their chests and say “I did it and YOU can’t! Neener neener neener!”?

Unless, of course, the content was designed so that certain people can do it while others can’t. That was sort of my point. Some people don’t want an easy mode option.

Personally i think the content is made by people who refuse to believe the camera has the problems it does especially for norn/char and Asura.

ykyk.2740:

Bringing in disability as an argument to attempt to lower the difficulty of something DESIGNED to be difficult is…silly.

I can’t repeat enough times that I am not in favor of a nerf (not anymore – I originally was but it was out of initial frustration, it was pretty silly of me). The discussion has shifted in this direction, for me, because of the notion that you can just “work on your skill” – which is something that’s not possible for some players due to disabilities (and other reasons) getting in the way, at least not in a limited window of time.

It’s not something people won’t be able to live without, but it stings for some people, and it can’t be too hard to respect that, can it?

Stressed.

Frustration.

Anger.

These are three things I currently feel about the game and that’s after two hours with the clock tower event and that’s before I log in today. For the first time since release, I am actually wondering if logging in would be a good idea. First nail in the coffin of me moving on…. and it’s down to an event.

Like many, I love the design, it looks wonderfully awesome, it has a sense of daring, movement and excitement, however practicality of it, for slower gamers, bad computer’s, bad mouse, bad coordination, disabilities of hand / eye coordination, are just some examples of why this type of event, needs more testing before being released to public or at least a less difficult setting in general for the public, especially when you fail, it’s resetting a video clip, which again causes more frustration as people want to get on with it, not be forced along.

In my honest opinion, if you took away the green slime, many more would be happy to actually try this more. Even a difficulty option of removing the green slime, would at least give people a chance to complete it, even if they fail less, will still be extremally hard for some, but it gives you the option of making a new catagory for a “Time Trial Achievement”, for those with the skill and courage to do them…. that’s a whole new area of achievement’s for you.

This is your first event segment and I don’t expect many changes, but at least consider that not everyone is god’s gift to gaming when you create such events for the future.

BroScientist.9875:

And if you can’t complete it? Big deal! You don’t get the Mad King slippers. It’s not the end of the world like you guys are making it out to be.

Not completing the puzzle isn’t a big deal.

That a feature was added into the game – a game that advertised and prized itself on being community friendly - that has actively encouraged griefing, insulting and demanding things of everybody else as if they had the run of the place, however, is quite a big deal.

It’s even quite apparent in these forums. There is very little sane discussion on where the problems of this puzzle actually lie. One side just goes “NEENER NEENER NEENER YOU DON’T HAVE SKILL SO SHUT UP” and the other side goes “YOU JUST DON’T WANT PEOPLE TO RUIN YOUR ACHIEVEMENT”.

If those two above attitudes could shove off – because they are unproductive, unhelpful and don’t actually discuss the problems that do make this puzzle genuinely unpleasant for a large majority of players in the community – then maybe we’d get somewhere.

The problems with this puzzle have nothing to do with the puzzle itself. The timer? It’s fine. Challenging, yes, but not impossible. The waiting? It’s frustrating as hell and seems ridiculous to be added to a puzzle demanded you not stray more than two seconds slower than the pace, but it’s not really a problem as such.

However, the vicious reaction of the community – in discussions like this or during the actual puzzle – is a problem. That this clearly wasn’t tested by more than four people at one time is a problem because those are problems. Allowing people to take in banners to give speed boosts to people in the middle of jumps – a bug I might add because skills clearly aren’t meant to be used – is a problem. The inconsideration to differences in racial sizes, and thus the issue this causes people in trying to work out where their character even is, are a problem.

^ they are the issues that need to be looked at.
Not the timer, not the amount of skill somebody does or does not have, and not the amount of time it takes you personally to complete the puzzle.
(You can eat a pie in thirty seconds? Good for you, but that doesn’t mean you should hold everybody else to the same standard. By the same token, just because I might take ten minutes to eat a pie, doesn’t mean I should scorn you for eating it quicker.)

I do find it telling one side of this debate seems to constantly resort to excessive hostility. I’m not going to be able to do this jumping puzzle at this rate because I’m wearing out my mouse clicking the “report” button.

People, please respect each other. The people who say an achievement should stand for something — and that the game shouldn’t become too watered down — have a point. Guess what? So do the people who feel like disabled players are being unfairly locked out of content.

It’s not impossible for you to both to be right on an issue. But nonetheless whoever has this attitude of “I have no/serious problems so everyone/no-one does” has logic so faulty it hurts my brain to read. Stop hurting my brain.

EDIT: Also, the post Airyll made right above this one? It rocks. Read it.

Its not as bad as everyone makes it seem. The slime isn’t an issue, and if it is its only in the very beginning during the chase past the first small block jump and after that its pretty easy. you just have to get the timing right. The only real “problem” i would say is when you are walking on the cogs you have to jump on some of them, and even then its not that big a deal. It just takes a bit of practice.

mrsrachelm.7618:

ykyk.2740:

I don’t understand why the discussion has shifted to disabled gamers. Obviously the notion that the difficulty should be lowered to cater to disabled gamers is ridiculous – where do you stop? Do you then cater it to toddlers? Do you start catering it to gamers with greater degrees of disability? Say you make it so people with a slight disability can complete it. Oh, here’s a gamer with an even more debilitating condition, and since you lowered the difficulty for the previous group of gamers you have to do it again! Eventually all games will be at the level where infant monkeys rolling their faces on a keyboard can beat it.

This is not a problem of discrimination but the fact that you CAN’T design content without having a TARGET AUDIENCE. This particular piece of content was DESIGNED to be difficult and requiring a certain degree of dexterity and coordination. By design, not the entire playing population will be able to complete it. Bringing in disability as an argument to attempt to lower the difficulty of something DESIGNED to be difficult is…silly. It was never MEANT to be able to be done by everyone.

Obviously you are only reading the parts of the discussion you want to read and missing the whole offered solution where EVERYONE is made happy by offering difficulty levels, either grouped or solo, timed or not timed, in an instanced puzzle zone for holiday puzzles along with a sliding scale of rewards to go with the level of difficulty. See? Simple. EVERYONE is happy. Unless certain people can ONLY be happy if they get to puff out their chests and say “I did it and YOU can’t! Neener neener neener!”?

Then people would complain they’re not getting as good of rewards as the people doing the highest difficulty.

I think we can agree the biggest issue here is time. I don’t think we need 20 different versions, I think people would rather get it done in their own time, rather adding another layer of frustration by it being temporary.

Also, be realistic. They can’t patch in massive changes like making it solo, changing loot tables etc within 2 days. That’s a lot of coding and testing.

I’m all for this being available longer so completionists are able to stack up there achievement. But a nerf on the ONE thing I’ve found a challenge so far? No, sorry.

Do people not like a challenge anymore?

Airyll.7849:

BroScientist.9875:

And if you can’t complete it? Big deal! You don’t get the Mad King slippers. It’s not the end of the world like you guys are making it out to be.

Not completing the puzzle isn’t a big deal.

That a feature was added into the game – a game that advertised and prized itself on being community friendly - that has actively encouraged griefing, insulting and demanding things of everybody else as if they had the run of the place, however, is quite a big deal.

It’s even quite apparent in these forums. There is very little sane discussion on where the problems of this puzzle actually lie. One side just goes “NEENER NEENER NEENER YOU DON’T HAVE SKILL SO SHUT UP” and the other side goes “YOU JUST DON’T WANT PEOPLE TO RUIN YOUR ACHIEVEMENT”.

If those two above attitudes could shove off – because they are unproductive, unhelpful and don’t actually discuss the problems that do make this puzzle genuinely unpleasant for a large majority of players in the community – then maybe we’d get somewhere.

The problems with this puzzle have nothing to do with the puzzle itself. The timer? It’s fine. Challenging, yes, but not impossible. The waiting? It’s frustrating as hell and seems ridiculous to be added to a puzzle demanded you not stray more than two seconds slower than the pace, but it’s not really a problem as such.

However, the vicious reaction of the community – in discussions like this or during the actual puzzle – is a problem. That this clearly wasn’t tested by more than four people at one time is a problem because those are problems. Allowing people to take in banners to give speed boosts to people in the middle of jumps – a bug I might add because skills clearly aren’t meant to be used – is a problem. The inconsideration to differences in racial sizes, and thus the issue this causes people in trying to work out where their character even is, are a problem.

^ they are the issues that need to be looked at.
Not the timer, not the amount of skill somebody does or does not have, and not the amount of time it takes you personally to complete the puzzle.
(You can eat a pie in thirty seconds? Good for you, but that doesn’t mean you should hold everybody else to the same standard. By the same token, just because I might take ten minutes to eat a pie, doesn’t mean I should scorn you for eating it quicker.)

I actually couldn’t agree more. Just an hour ago, someone in my group was using speed runes that gave a boost to EVERYONE in the vicinity. She was using it midway up and it would always be a surprise when it happened, thus throwing off everyone’s sense of timing. These issues should be fixed.

ykyk.2740:

Unless, of course, the content was designed so that certain people can do it while others can’t. That was sort of my point. Some people don’t want an easy mode option.

Then don’t PLAY the easy mode option. Simple. It’s no skin off -your- nose if others do.

Swifter.6451:

Do people not like a challenge anymore?

Apparently not, nowadays it’s all about trying to ride glittering unicorns down rainbow slides made out of laughter and splashing into a chocolate fountain of mediocrity. Gawd forbid something offers you a sense of accomplishment anymore…

mrsrachelm.7618:

Then don’t PLAY the easy mode option. Simple. It’s no skin off -your- nose if others do.

Just like you don’t have to do the puzzle if it’s too hard for you. Simple. It’s no skin off -your- nose if you don’t.

After nearly FOURTEEN (14) hours attempting to finish this puzzle, I finally get to the top, and waited for the clock face to break. After it had, and I was sure, I jumped into it, to be greeted with the expected loading screen (that I’d seen in the videos) only to be returned to the beginning with no achievement and no chance to open the chest.

This is completely unfair. I do not like the clock tower puzzle, nor do I want to spend another FOURTEEN hours attempting to do it because it was bugged, but I’ll most likely end up doing just that because I’m obsessive compulsive. It started out confusing, then went straight to frustrating, and now it’s just plain insulting. At no time was it ever “fun.” I wish I could just go on without the achievement, but I can’t, as it’s going to be eating at me until I do. (And before anyone says it for the millionth time, I know it’s not part of the overall mad king emissary achievement. That’s not the point.)

RenRen.5706:

Wouldn’t toning down the difficulty for the disabled be a slap in the face to them either way? You’re basically saying “Here you go. We made this easier just for you ‘cause you don’t have what it takes.”

There’s a disabled player in the Street Fighter community who plays with his kittening tongue and face and Capcom hasn’t shown any signs of making the game more accessible to him. And he frequents tournaments, where the best of the best play.

There’s a disabled player who plays GW2 PvP with a pen in his mouth and does well. ANet hasn’t catered the game around him either.

Disabled person here…..I don’t need the difficulty of the puzzle toned down…I need ANet to make “Camera look” key mapable (I can’t use the mouse) like tons of other MMOs out there so that I can work around my disability.

Another thing that would help would be to make the thing a solo instance. That won’t change the actual challenge of the puzzle at all, but will make it much less frustrating.

I don’t agree that temporary challenges should that crazy difficult for the majority of players, but I also don’t agree that nothing should be crazy difficult either. In my opinion, holiday events should be more accessible since they are so short-lived….but it wouldn’t bother me if the difficulty of some of the more permanent puzzles was ramped up.

But this one doesn’t even need it’s difficulty lowered. It simply needs to be a solo instance (and I need my camera mapping…pleaseohpleaseohplease Puss n’ Boots Eyes).

And for those that say “But it needs to be social,” no one was socializing while I was in there….other than to rag about it and summon golems. So.Um…solo please. I can socialize with people in the static puzzles and LA. :P

neon.4863:

ykyk.2740:

Bringing in disability as an argument to attempt to lower the difficulty of something DESIGNED to be difficult is…silly.

I can’t repeat enough times that I am not in favor of a nerf (not anymore – I originally was but it was out of initial frustration, it was pretty silly of me). The discussion has shifted in this direction, for me, because of the notion that you can just “work on your skill” – which is something that’s not possible for some players due to disabilities (and other reasons) getting in the way, at least not in a limited window of time.

It’s not something people won’t be able to live without, but it stings for some people, and it can’t be too hard to respect that, can it?

All I can say is I’m sorry this has to happen. I completely agree that making it not Halloween-exclusive so people can learn at their own pace is a great suggestion. I respect that people are fighting with certain limitations, and that sometimes it just doesn’t feel fair. My point is simply that it was perhaps never meant to be “fair”, and that using accessibility or “fairness” as an argument to adjust the difficulty is completely missing the point. I hope I do not come off as offensive in bringing this point across.

Supervillain.8617:

After nearly FOURTEEN (14) hours attempting to finish this puzzle, I finally get to the top, and waited for the clock face to break. After it had, and I was sure, I jumped into it, to be greeted with the expected loading screen (that I’d seen in the videos) only to be returned to the beginning with no achievement and no chance to open the chest.

This is completely unfair. I do not like the clock tower puzzle, nor do I want to spend another FOURTEEN hours attempting to do it because it was bugged, but I’ll most likely end up doing just that because I’m obsessive compulsive. It started out confusing, then went straight to frustrating, and now it’s just plain insulting. At no time was it ever “fun.” I wish I could just go on without the achievement, but I can’t, as it’s going to be eating at me until I do. (And before anyone says it for the millionth time, I know it’s not part of the overall mad king emissary achievement. That’s not the point.)

Wow, that super sucks dude. I really hope it doesn’t take you 14 hours again, that’s pretty brutal and a little scary if you’ve been sitting at that puzzle for 14 hours straight with no breaks. xD

I had a bit of trouble on the start to do the jumping puzzle. But after a few trys I get used to it. I watched a youtube video which helped me to know the way near the top.

It got easier the more I did it. I even went back in a few times to get the other chests.

Cyric.7485:

Just like you don’t have to do the puzzle if it’s too hard for you. Simple. It’s no skin off -your- nose if you don’t.

I’ve already stated I have no desire to worry about the puzzle until -maybe- next year once they have some of the more agreed upon issues such a the camera movement, the banners and speed buffs etc worked out. I have no idea if it’s too hard foe -me- or not. I recognize that for MANY players it is and that many of their reasons are quite valid and I would think so even had I completed the puzzle and then it was in some way moderated for the rest of the holiday. Why? Because I don’t place the level of my personal feelings of success and/or achievement on whether or not someone ELSE can do what I have done. My level of success is based solely upon my own personal satisfaction that I’ve done it. Helping others and wanting others to have that same experience, and making that experience more accessible to them, in no way devalues my personal accomplishments. If they do for -you-, then I pity you that you base the value of your accomplishments only in comparison to others and not see them as having a personal value for themselves regardless of what others have or have not done.

ykyk.2740:

neon.4863:

ykyk.2740:

Bringing in disability as an argument to attempt to lower the difficulty of something DESIGNED to be difficult is…silly.

I can’t repeat enough times that I am not in favor of a nerf (not anymore – I originally was but it was out of initial frustration, it was pretty silly of me). The discussion has shifted in this direction, for me, because of the notion that you can just “work on your skill” – which is something that’s not possible for some players due to disabilities (and other reasons) getting in the way, at least not in a limited window of time.

It’s not something people won’t be able to live without, but it stings for some people, and it can’t be too hard to respect that, can it?

All I can say is I’m sorry this has to happen. I completely agree that making it not Halloween-exclusive so people can learn at their own pace is a great suggestion. I respect that people are fighting with certain limitations, and that sometimes it just doesn’t feel fair. My point is simply that it was perhaps never meant to be “fair”, and that using accessibility or “fairness” as an argument to adjust the difficulty is completely missing the point. I hope I do not come off as offensive in bringing this point across.

I don’t think you came off as offensive, no!

I do however think that something designed with unfairness in mind is flawed – your mileage may vary here, but in a multiplayer game you probably want to be inclusive instead of exclusive. If it was designed to be unfair (and it apparently was, with the supposed creator of the map saying he expected 5% completion out of all the players), it could have been done without being this exclusive, too. Reward tiers based on the amount of time you took to complete it, for instance, would have still been “unfair”, but it would also not have locked some players out of the content entirely. It’d still be unfair, just more inclusive.

I understand this is probably how the puzzle was designed, I just don’t agree with how it was designed. I still don’t feel like it should be changed just because I disagree, but I do feel like players should at the very least be allowed to vent their frustrations, if nothing else.

(I also agree with the camera issues – they are issues even during regular gameplay and this seems less like a design choice and more like a flaw in the game itself.)

This is why most of us go on the defensive when nerf is heard.

(insert content here) gets added
x number of players have no problem with it and enjoy the challenge
y number of players have difficulties with it

(insert content here) gets nerfed across the board
x no longer goes to this content, what’s the point
y farms his easy mode content and is happy again

It is very difficult to please an entire playing population. If there is a lack of challenging content people complain, but when challenging content comes (the mechanics of how the “challenge” comes about notwithstanding) people also complain. There’s just no way to please everyone when it comes to things like this – not making very difficult content will probably be the easier way out (just look at the !@#$storm over the clock tower), but I respect ANet for taking a stand and going “here you go, here’s a puzzle that’s difficult as hell and we expect you to fail it over and over”. It’s a matter of design philosophy I guess.

If you have a guildmate who is a mesmer and is good at the jumping puzzle, here’s what you can do:

Send the mesmer to the top of the puzzle but don’t jump in the tower.

Wait for the mist to reach you and watch while it passes by you unharmed.

When the puzzle resets (the mist reappears at the bottom) jump on to a platform guaranteed to kill you with fall damage that is not the fake chest drop platform.

You will die and instantly be teleported and rezzed to the platform you hit on the jump puzzle. You will get all your skills back and will no longer be affected by mist.

Time a mesmer portal to allow people just starting the puzzle to skip the majority of the jump sections, providing them a good enough buffer to complete the puzzle at their leisure (this is the part I’m unsure will work).

I have reported this bug so it may or may not go away soon, but that’s one way for the people unable to complete the puzzle who are desperate for the achievement.

And at 4 am fate favors me and the first time I finally clear the part I kept botch jumping (where there’s one little block, a grey line platform and a wood beam you need to jump through before you have to fall to the gear with the chest. and I just zen mode clear the rest first time through.

Overall I still don’t really like it (but to be fair I never really like the jumping puzzles in the game so I tend to avoid them and do them very rarely)

My final opinions; that first part is just terrible and has 2 spots almost tailor made to screw with the big races camera (seriously the fact 90% of my failures are at this exact spot, the other 9% were a jump halfway through I only reached 6 times in maybe 8 hours, and the entire part immoderately after I did in one shot says something.) and of course the Asura have the problems when in large groups.

There is this little block in the part that rises when you start that I have to very specifically jump and very specifically have my camera only a certain distance away or the platform above causes the camera to freak out every single time, and the stair block immoderately after always makes the camera spaz when I’m on the second step, which I need to land on to make the next jump. all of my problems come from this part here, because this part is where the camera works against me, and it’s also the spot with the tightest timing window, a window I was losing time on ebcause i had to work past that block very specifically)

At the same time time by the end it was me and three other people, so I had no crowd issues, but one of whom i am sure I was causing problems for because anytime she was near me in pace she’d miss jumps by a millimeters worth of distance, yet she was at least nice and never seemed to give me bad words for being a charr while she was trying.

Honestly as long as they keep the jumping puzzle achievements completely separate (which they have) harder or easier or multi mode is an Anet discretion decision, I Do however think if the trend of harder timed jumping puzzles continues they should probably be solo, making it group oriented just brought out bad in a lot of people.

I like how most people who are saying that the Puzzle should stay a challenge don’t acknowledge the fact that it tends to glitch out.

@mrsrachelm.7618 (infraction incoming, I’m sure of it)

Really enjoyed that whole “I’m holier than thou and I pity you for being my lesser” part of your argument, at least you’re consistent in your posts.

To the point, completing something difficult is where my personal satisfaction comes from. Having my accomplishments dumbed down for others won’t detract from my own pride in completing it, but I’ll readily admit that anyone that requires a nerf (on something that’s not even that hard) to complete it probably won’t get any words of praise from me and spare me your condescending preaching, it’s who I am. Also, I enjoy the puzzle the way it is now and I personally don’t want it to become another boring puzzle I’ll never go back to because it got ramped down into Silver Platter mode. I’m also not deluded into thinking everything in the world can be converted into some hand holding group hug to help the world spin faster with the undying power of love which seems to be the utopian nonsense you’re constantly posting.

I don’t understand why people like you feel like people deserve things they can’t earn in a videogame, RL is an entirely different issue so don’t bother throwing that at me since you like to get people in trouble with your irrelevant arguments involving RL. Where is the satisfaction in knowing that something has been made more mundane in an effort to make it accessible to you? That would just make me feel undeserving, have a little pride for F’s sake. The only valid reasons to make changes to the puzzle are the camera issues, the banners (wasn’t aware of that), and other players blocking your view with their giant charr/norn butts.

there are so few REALLY challenging things in this game. and at last something that NOT everyone can do.
i haven’t finished it successfully myself. yet i don’t think it should become easier.

the halloween event will repeat next year (was like this in GW1 don’t think it would be different here).

i accept challenge, and also i accept there are things that are beyond my reach. for me time sinking achievements are beyond my reach, you don’t see me come and complain about the fact that i don’t have enough time to play the game to achieve a legendary in this current lifetime.
learn to accept other ppl who really think that challenging achievement is something that is worth their time (like me) where time sinking achievements don’t worth their time.

not everyone should be able to wear this achievement, only those who truly made the effort to achieve it.