Guild Wars 2

A screenshot taken during the beta wyvern fight by one of the testers. Is this a sign that conditions will finally be reworked for HoT, or just a glitch that shouldn’t happen?

http://i.imgur.com/0XIBoIQ.jpg

Youch that would hurt

Hallelujah and blessed be the bleed testers!

Another one, 72 stacks of confusion! <instakill on skill usage, I’d say>

http://i.imgur.com/QO9AF89.png

It was the dawning of the third age of the Condimancer…

I sure hope its not a glitch. Fixing conditions would be huge, but having the “fix” a lot of people have been hoping for turn out to be a glitch would be a rather troll move by the Glitch Gremlin.

Sadly I did not notice the double (or whatever multiplier) of damage after break bar kicking in for conditions. So even if stacking isn’t a bug, having CC not matter for condi dmg is still a big gap in potency.

Holy crap. If that’s a bug, it’s one heckuva bug! If its an actual condition fix (praise be)…well conditions might get their own balance pass in the future lol

You guys honestly think that 61 stacks of bleed is survivable?

Becka Williams.4978:

You guys honestly think that 61 stacks of bleed is survivable?

For an 18 billion hp boss? Yes. Absolutely.

Becka Williams.4978:

You guys honestly think that 61 stacks of bleed is survivable?

Just because the cap is raised, doesn’t mean that suddenly classes will be able to reach 61 solo. This has nothing to do with survivable or not. It’s just making condition builds not as bad in group content.

Nike.2631:

Becka Williams.4978:

You guys honestly think that 61 stacks of bleed is survivable?

For an 18 billion hp boss? Yes. Absolutely.

For a player?

It hurts to laugh this hard (or cry this hard, depending on which end I’m on)

If you’re a player and you got focused enough to get 61 stacks of bleed – you kinda need to die from it .

There’s a huge difference between “bleeding to death” and “turned into pulp” though. If as a player you get 61 stacks of bleed, we need a red puddle on the ground animation. Cause nothing’s left.

if this gets through on release…i’m switching condi.

Becka Williams.4978:

You guys honestly think that 61 stacks of bleed is survivable?

You actually think 25 stacks of bleed is survivable?

There is a faint light over this incomplete vanilla.

And what if the raised condition cap is for pve olny? Yeah thats right – nothing to worry about when it comes to pvp/wvw as conditions there will still be capped at 25.

Don’t expect to see that outside of boss encounters.

Stacking conditions in GW2 is far more complex than how most other MMOs handle it. Simply put, a stack of 100 bleeds is like 100 different debuffs in other MMOs. A zerg’s worth of conditions on a zerg would be expensive to process, though it is possible. Unless they reworked how conditions work or improved the back-end, I’m guessing it’s optimized for specialty targets only.

Nike.2631:

If you’re a player and you got focused enough to get 61 stacks of bleed – you kinda need to die from it .

Honestly though? If you got hit by an amount of power hits to equate to the stacks, you’d probably be dead instantly…. A raised cap doesnt automatically mean every build can suddenly stack 50 bleeds alone…

I bet this is part of the stress test by letting ppl get higher stacks your testing HoT’s ability to deal with every thing going off at once.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

There’s a huge difference between “bleeding to death” and “turned into pulp” though. If as a player you get 61 stacks of bleed, we need a red puddle on the ground animation. Cause nothing’s left.

I’m always in favor of better visual/intuitive messaging in-game. A spreading pool of chunky red salsa when a player character gets massacred by 25+ stacks of bleed ticking carries just the right connotations of “ouch” and “who will be next to fall under the Bloodeye of Sauron?”

“Bloodeye” – the next evolution of the WvW meta. Called it here first .

If that was the case, they would also remove the stack limit on torment and Vulnerability, but these were hardcapped still at 25…

As much as I’d LIKE to see the vulnerability cap removed/increased I can understand why it wasn’t. It would be an extremely geometric effect as zerg size increases.

I wasn’t in the demo, so I haven’t heard if Torment caps at 25 or not.

Playing in the stress test, I did not personally see torment go above 25. I saw it get to 25, but not higher than that.

Invidia.9074:

If that was the case, they would also remove the stack limit on torment and Vulnerability, but these were hardcapped still at 25…

Vulnerability cap should stay since its just a flat bonus to incoming damage and benefits the entire group. Uncapping it would mean a large open world group could be doing a hundred percent or more bonus damage just through vulnerability alone. Which would be pretty excessive.

The only things that really need to be uncapped are the conditions that cause damage in and of themselves like Bleed, since those are the things condition builds rely on to deal the damage.

I’m not sure there are enough skills in the beta that cause enough torment to even hit the 25 cap to test if its still active or not. But it would be curious if it was indeed still capped.

Electro.4173:

Invidia.9074:

If that was the case, they would also remove the stack limit on torment and Vulnerability, but these were hardcapped still at 25…

Vulnerability cap should stay since its just a flat bonus to incoming damage and benefits the entire group. Uncapping it would mean a large open world group could be doing a hundred percent or more bonus damage just through vulnerability alone. Which would be pretty excessive.

The only things that really need to be uncapped are the conditions that cause damage in and of themselves like Bleed, since those are the things condition builds rely on to deal the damage.

I’m not sure there are enough skills in the beta that cause enough torment to even hit the 25 cap to test if its still active or not. But it would be curious if it was indeed still capped.

A few mace revenants and like some thieves or something… Idk should be doable just for testing purposes…

Lazaar.9123:

Playing in the stress test, I did not personally see torment go above 25. I saw it get to 25, but not higher than that.

If it hung at exactly 25 that is certainly suggestive, but without someone seeing it at 25, firing their own torment, and seeing it not go up we left with high likelihood that it’s capped but not complete certainty.

Something to actively test in the next window!

OMG OMG OMG… if they are finally going to fix conditions then I will never ever say a bad thing about HoT ever again!!!!!

I really wonder how the server will handle and epidemic on -several- 70+ stacks of conditions though

I would like to see that happen

Unfortunately it looks like burning, chill, and poison might still be stuck at 1 stack.

Electro.4173:

I’m not sure there are enough skills in the beta that cause enough torment to even hit the 25 cap to test if its still active or not. But it would be curious if it was indeed still capped.

Sure there are, revenants can give out torment like candies. Of course, though, nobody would use Mallyx legend for the Wyvern fight, as Jalis utils are way better for it (stability and strong defiance bar lowerer). Which might be why i haven’t personally seen torment go into double digits.

tigirius.9014:

Unfortunately it looks like burning, chill, and poison might still be stuck at 1 stack.

Why would chill change? And might… Goes to 25? Poison is mostly a utility. Burning… Who even knows about burning…

It’s a number. Big numbers don’t mean more calculations.

hmm. Vuln is a different matter. its not a damaging condition and it doesnt gian anything from investment in condi power. Also it directly increases the damage of power players. do we really want vuln to stack up to a hundred? In any situation? Seems like thats pretty easily abused.

If whats been described is true. Power builds will do double damage during the “break” phases but condi builds wont. This actually makes sense. If the bosses are properly designed. The typically close range power builds are gonna be at more risk during the active phases. Making the new condi builds thatl appear the primary source of damage during that time. As they maintains stacks of conditions that are largely unaffected by the bosses movements. (or in the case of torment and confusion EMPOWERED by them).

Meaning that the active phases will be attrition phases that favor the condition builds.
Although power builds will still be viable of course. It simply wont be the best time to pop there heaviest cooldowns.
And there will be a “break” phase where power builds can effectively smash the boss with impunity for MASSIVE damage. If thats how this is going. Then I think its a good solution to the issues weve been having.

Condition builds become the attrition weapon were used to. Power builds become burst focused as is how there usually treated in most games. (the rolling and combining of cooldowns to deal massive spike damage a condi build isnt capable of kind of like SotW+SotH+RaO+Maul for rangers dealing insanely high cleave crits.)

With 5 Revenants and his ‘banish enchantment’ skill, we were able to deal more than 100 stacks of confusion, but after 99 it just appeared an exclamation mark.

As long as technically possible (and it appears to be), removing (or raising) the condition cap on BOSSES has always seemed to be a potential way to get around one of the CD issues.

It’s a number. Big numbers don’t mean more calculations.

But per how Condi is suppose to work (granted, this could be a different method of CD damage calculation….we don’t know), the Server has to keep up with WHO applies each of those 61 stacks and the CD value of each of those players to calculate the proper damage applied per tick….and that changes as each stack expires and new ones are applied..

The 61 as a “number” is easy, but all the background calculations to define what THOSE 61 stacks of Bleeding equate to damage wise is far from simple.

Also, keep in mind the Server has to maintain doing this CD calculation for EVERY stack of CD across the entire zone….not just this one fight….that includes every player, NPC and Mordy minon.

Now if this fight were somehow in an isolated “instance” in some way that would certainly allow for additional computational resources to become available. (very doubtful seeing how it appears the cap may be raised to 100 across the zone).

Becka Williams.4978:

You guys honestly think that 61 stacks of bleed is survivable?

NOONE will ever be able to reach 61 stack alone, extremely good full condi builds 2 ppl MIGHT be able to with certain classes but most condi build are lying around 20-25 or so stack alone only, so basically your question would be the same as asking if you think anyone can survive being hit by a big burst attack of 2-3 players at the same time? ofc not, you are not supposed to

Healix.5819:

Don’t expect to see that outside of boss encounters.

Stacking conditions in GW2 is far more complex than how most other MMOs handle it. Simply put, a stack of 100 bleeds is like 100 different debuffs in other MMOs. A zerg’s worth of conditions on a zerg would be expensive to process, though it is possible. Unless they reworked how conditions work or improved the back-end, I’m guessing it’s optimized for specialty targets only.

well they did make an overall change to condition dmg lately where if you had say 4½ second of bleeding duration, you would take half a tick’s dmg when you condition run out, this might be part of optimising conditions so we can finally get some love for condi builds

Varrison.2871:

With 5 Revenants and his ‘banish enchantment’ skill, we were able to deal more than 100 stacks of confusion, but after 99 it just appeared an exclamation mark.

This kinda makes me more hopefull the fact that when it gets to a certain amount (99 if what you say is correct) that this is not a bug, as if it were it would likely either give like some kind of weird capsed error code thing or simply have the numbers keep going up to the absurd to the point where you had numbers go WAY beyond the borders of condition icon itself making a mess on the bar, but instead they are like lets put a simply ! for telling this guy have a very high number of conditions on him (and really if you ahve 100+ stack of a condi on a person well it most likely a world boss or champion at (or wvw zerg vs zerg) where frankly the amount is so high that you dont really have any use of knowing the exact number anymore

Hopefully this is to improve conditions in PvE, removing the cap an all.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

I really wonder how the server will handle and epidemic on -several- 70+ stacks of conditions though

I would like to see that happen

I would say there is a 99% chance that it is changed to only transfer your own conditions.

Yeah, the confusion stacks I assumed was a bug. After you get 3 conditions on the wyvern (from any source), Revenants just spammed thier short cooldown, low energy utility over and over and watched the Wyvern melt until it’s fly away stage where if brought down, it didn’t attack.

The Wyvern fight was far more balanced with a sub 7 or so players attacking it. A good pace but nothing too dramatic. Once you got to 10+, it was way easy if you and a few others used the Revenant condition melt build (TM).

That can’t be intended unless it is specific for this encounter.

Hopefully it’s something they are testing out to see if they can at least implement the change for Champion/Legendary NPC’s only, and make them exclusive to PvE/dungeon/fractal maps as there is no need for more potential lag in WvW.

At the end of the day they cap the number of players in a zone. It’s ridiculous they didn’t allocate the resources for those players to actually use their abilities and not have them flushed into the void because more than three players looked at the same target. There were a number of ways the situation could have been improved. I’m honestly surprised we’re seeing this solution. It makes Heart of Thorns a MUCH more interesting prospect to me.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Increased-Bleeding-Stacks

Shadelang.3012:

hmm. Vuln is a different matter. its not a damaging condition and it doesnt gian anything from investment in condi power. Also it directly increases the damage of power players. do we really want vuln to stack up to a hundred? In any situation? Seems like thats pretty easily abused.

If whats been described is true. Power builds will do double damage during the “break” phases but condi builds wont. This actually makes sense. If the bosses are properly designed. The typically close range power builds are gonna be at more risk during the active phases. Making the new condi builds thatl appear the primary source of damage during that time. As they maintains stacks of conditions that are largely unaffected by the bosses movements. (or in the case of torment and confusion EMPOWERED by them).

Meaning that the active phases will be attrition phases that favor the condition builds.
Although power builds will still be viable of course. It simply wont be the best time to pop there heaviest cooldowns.
And there will be a “break” phase where power builds can effectively smash the boss with impunity for MASSIVE damage. If thats how this is going. Then I think its a good solution to the issues weve been having.

Condition builds become the attrition weapon were used to. Power builds become burst focused as is how there usually treated in most games. (the rolling and combining of cooldowns to deal massive spike damage a condi build isnt capable of kind of like SotW+SotH+RaO+Maul for rangers dealing insanely high cleave crits.)

you overestimate this change. all it does is that other people wont overwrite your conditions, which means condition builds wont be as bad in group content anymore and maybe on par with power builds. but you are not going to stack 50 stacks alone.

and condition builds are alot easier to play in PvE. i doubt they will make it the new super weapon when for example a condition engi can get away with spamming grenades and a power engi needs to do a south korean 300apm rotation to reach max dps.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

I really wonder how the server will handle and epidemic on -several- 70+ stacks of conditions though

I would like to see that happen

imagine that same necromancer pulling those 70+ stack of bleed from an ally to himself with the plague signets passive effect xD

Or even better one necro on one team use epidemic to spread 70+bleed to all enemies and one enemy necro then get them all pulled tim himself with plague signets? like 300 stack on bleeding on him? OUCH OUCH OUCH

Becka Williams.4978:

You guys honestly think that 61 stacks of bleed is survivable?

Do you think the same number of people it took to apply 61 stacks of bleed on a target would be survivable if they spec’d power/prec instead and did damage that way?

Damage source is damage source, why cripple (pun intended) the other way to do damage?

I must say it was fun the beta version,
Graphic was really great.
But what struck me is the one thing I want to mention a few things to talk.

Super graphics
The new class is really great.

What’s not so great is the following:
Pay if you use for example, you get the not if the boss is partially there.
Furthermore, F1 is a little fired too late when you press it. Delay approx 3 to 5 mls.

I couldn’t help myself, isn’t this the ’Death by a Thousand Cuts?"

NoTrigger.8396:

Shadelang.3012:

hmm. Vuln is a different matter. its not a damaging condition and it doesnt gian anything from investment in condi power. Also it directly increases the damage of power players. do we really want vuln to stack up to a hundred? In any situation? Seems like thats pretty easily abused.

If whats been described is true. Power builds will do double damage during the “break” phases but condi builds wont. This actually makes sense. If the bosses are properly designed. The typically close range power builds are gonna be at more risk during the active phases. Making the new condi builds thatl appear the primary source of damage during that time. As they maintains stacks of conditions that are largely unaffected by the bosses movements. (or in the case of torment and confusion EMPOWERED by them).

Meaning that the active phases will be attrition phases that favor the condition builds.
Although power builds will still be viable of course. It simply wont be the best time to pop there heaviest cooldowns.
And there will be a “break” phase where power builds can effectively smash the boss with impunity for MASSIVE damage. If thats how this is going. Then I think its a good solution to the issues weve been having.

Condition builds become the attrition weapon were used to. Power builds become burst focused as is how there usually treated in most games. (the rolling and combining of cooldowns to deal massive spike damage a condi build isnt capable of kind of like SotW+SotH+RaO+Maul for rangers dealing insanely high cleave crits.)

you overestimate this change. all it does is that other people wont overwrite your conditions, which means condition builds wont be as bad in group content anymore and maybe on par with power builds. but you are not going to stack 50 stacks alone.

and condition builds are alot easier to play in PvE. i doubt they will make it the new super weapon when for example a condition engi can get away with spamming grenades and a power engi needs to do a south korean 300apm rotation to reach max dps.

I never once stated that condition builds would be extremely powerful in any sense of the word. I agree with you infact that all this change does is allow condition focused players to actually do there job without accidental bleeds from random power warrior number 357 or Power necro with a staff number 249 over riding them. meaning now they can actually play the game and have an impact. That alone is enough tbh if this goes through.

Edit: Anything else I said in my post was speculation based off of the apparent mechanics of the break bar and how ive seen the wyvern fight itself developed.