Guild Wars 2

Hi there,

I’ve been wondering if, since the changes to map completion, will WvW skill challenges count towards getting hero points? I feel it only makes sense since there is an abundance of skill challenges in pve to get hero points; having a few in wvw should be well received.

There technically isn’t an abundance of skill points in PvE, because it will add up to the total number of hero points one needs to get everything unlocked after all of the specializations are released (years from now, obviously).

Though, since WvW does share skill unlocks with PvE, I wonder if they have something in mind for it since there are some people that almost exclusively WvW.

I hope they do add the WvW skill challenges to the hero point pool. WvW peeps need some love too.
The other hope is that the new maps will have hero challenges at the bases and other locations, so WvW-primary players can flesh out their builds more in their preferred game mode.

Right after the HoT announcement, I went out and grinded a bunch of skill point scrolls to go along with the metric ton of leveling tomes. I got more than enough so that I would have a level 80 Revenant with all of the skills unlocked. All of that has been completely done away with. Sure, I can use the tomes and that part is great.

All ArenaNet would need to do for WvW or PvE players to honor time already put into character progression is allow us a way to convert skill points to hero points. That’s it. The issue is they don’t want us to level like we used to be able to level. Before, I could earn tomes and scrolls in PvE whilst playing say, my Mesmer. Then I could use said items on a new Thief if I wanted to. All that bathwater is being thrown out with the baby. We don’t get to progress like we want to anymore and it’s a shame. The poor communication on the subject is a shame as well. All they had to say with the announcement to HoT was that the system was changing. “Don’t run out and try to level like you have been leveling for months. We are changing the system.” That simple announcement would have saved me hours of progression.

Iason Evan.3806:

Right after the HoT announcement, I went out and grinded a bunch of skill point scrolls to go along with the metric ton of leveling tomes. I got more than enough so that I would have a level 80 Revenant with all of the skills unlocked. All of that has been completely done away with. Sure, I can use the tomes and that part is great.

Because the system is messed up as it is. They didn’t have the elite specs before, and now is a perfect time to fix that.

All ArenaNet would need to do for WvW or PvE players to honor time already put into character progression is allow us a way to convert skill points to hero points. That’s it.

So, literally change nothing then. They can’t do this because there are a fixed number of Hero Points that you can only get from leveling and from the skill challenges but there are tons of skill scrolls. It’s not like they’re getting deleted; they’re getting converted into a currency that they already are anyway. The system is more streamlined and is going to be separated as it should have been in the first place.

The issue is they don’t want us to level like we used to be able to level. Before, I could earn tomes and scrolls in PvE whilst playing say, my Mesmer. Then I could use said items on a new Thief if I wanted to. All that bathwater is being thrown out with the baby. We don’t get to progress like we want to anymore and it’s a shame. The poor communication on the subject is a shame as well. All they had to say with the announcement to HoT was that the system was changing. “Don’t run out and try to level like you have been leveling for months. We are changing the system.” That simple announcement would have saved me hours of progression.

You still get tomes of knowledge, and through those tomes, by getting to 80, you essentially unlock nearly everything. You can also trade your skill point scrolls in for tomes at 20:1. Ignoring any tomes you have, 1580 skill scrolls will get you from level 2 to 80 instantly, with 400 Hero Points to work with. And like I said in your other thread, do you really think they are going to say “guys, do not farm skill scrolls for 9+ months because the expansion will eventually be out some time after that and we don’t want you to be disappointed.” You never responded to that, probably because it’s a silly thing to think they would do. You have the scrolls now, and the expansion is still easily 2+ months out yet; you can still use them.

You still get tomes of knowledge, and through those tomes, by getting to 80, you essentially unlock nearly everything. You can also trade your skill point scrolls in for tomes at 20:1. Ignoring any tomes you have, 1580 skill scrolls will get you from level 2 to 80 instantly, with 400 Hero Points to work with. And like I said in your other thread, do you really think they are going to say “guys, do not farm skill scrolls for 9+ months because the expansion will eventually be out some time after that and we don’t want you to be disappointed.” You never responded to that, probably because it’s a silly thing to think they would do. You have the scrolls now, and the expansion is still easily 2+ months out yet; you can still use them.

Actually the writs are the ones that can be traded at 20:1. The scrolls are being converted directly into spirit shards.

“•Writs of experience can only be used if you’re under level 80, and they can be traded in to Miyani for a tome of knowledge at a rate of 20 writs per tome.
•Any scrolls of knowledge that you have in your possession will automatically be converted to spirit shards, and any source that used to award scrolls of knowledge will now grant spirit shards.”

steveway.3167:

Actually the writs are the ones that can be traded at 20:1. The scrolls are being converted directly into spirit shards.

“•Writs of experience can only be used if you’re under level 80, and they can be traded in to Miyani for a tome of knowledge at a rate of 20 writs per tome.
•Any scrolls of knowledge that you have in your possession will automatically be converted to spirit shards, and any source that used to award scrolls of knowledge will now grant spirit shards.”

Oh…why? The Writs are already 1/20th of a level each. Is this just for consolidation? I must have misread it as the scrolls.

Also, have they said anything about what Spirit Shards can buy aside from what skill points can already buy?

MiniEquine.6014:

steveway.3167:

Actually the writs are the ones that can be traded at 20:1. The scrolls are being converted directly into spirit shards.

“•Writs of experience can only be used if you’re under level 80, and they can be traded in to Miyani for a tome of knowledge at a rate of 20 writs per tome.
•Any scrolls of knowledge that you have in your possession will automatically be converted to spirit shards, and any source that used to award scrolls of knowledge will now grant spirit shards.”

Oh…why? The Writs are already 1/20th of a level each. Is this just for consolidation? I must have misread it as the scrolls.

Also, have they said anything about what Spirit Shards can buy aside from what skill points can already buy?

it’s so writs can/will still give 1/20th of a skill point spirit shard.
Keeps them relevant once you have all chars at 80. Same reason tomes of knowledge will give spirit shards.

Yeah but what people seem to forget about is that, you have to do more to open current functionality of your toons. Everyone seems to be putting this into a perspective of having to do 65 challenges on ONE toon.

Nah now its all my alts. Having to do the same crap over and over and over again on each one to get the same functionality I currently have.

Then on top of that, I still have to do more for elites as there are 220 hero points after the 400 they give you from leveling.

So if its going down to zero. To fully open a toon I have to do 220 X 9 hero skill challenges? Screw you. 1 toon yeah whatever I would probably do it anyway, but after that WTH?

nightblood.7910:

Yeah but what people seem to forget about is that, you have to do more to open current functionality of your toons. Everyone seems to be putting this into a perspective of having to do 65 challenges on ONE toon.

Nah now its all my alts. Having to do the same crap over and over and over again on each one to get the same functionality I currently have.

Then on top of that, I still have to do more for elites as there are 220 hero points after the 400 they give you from leveling.

So if its going down to zero. To fully open a toon I have to do 220 X 9 hero skill challenges? Screw you. 1 toon yeah whatever I would probably do it anyway, but after that WTH?

Part of the problem with this argument, though, is that you technically didn’t do anything to get most of those skill points on your alts. Skill scrolls are found passively; they just sort of stockpile from random stuff if you don’t use them. If you spend all of them on a level 2 alt that has done nothing then you could buy (nearly) every skill possible. But that isn’t doing anything. You aren’t losing actual progress. You are losing skills that you currently have unlocked, but that’s because of the system change. You’re still going to get those Spirit Shards from the non-Hero Point skill points, unless they’ve said something contrary to that.

MiniEquine.6014:

nightblood.7910:

Yeah but what people seem to forget about is that, you have to do more to open current functionality of your toons. Everyone seems to be putting this into a perspective of having to do 65 challenges on ONE toon.

Nah now its all my alts. Having to do the same crap over and over and over again on each one to get the same functionality I currently have.

Then on top of that, I still have to do more for elites as there are 220 hero points after the 400 they give you from leveling.

So if its going down to zero. To fully open a toon I have to do 220 X 9 hero skill challenges? Screw you. 1 toon yeah whatever I would probably do it anyway, but after that WTH?

Part of the problem with this argument, though, is that you technically didn’t do anything to get most of those skill points on your alts. Skill scrolls are found passively; they just sort of stockpile from random stuff if you don’t use them. If you spend all of them on a level 2 alt that has done nothing then you could buy (nearly) every skill possible. But that isn’t doing anything. You aren’t losing actual progress. You are losing skills that you currently have unlocked, but that’s because of the system change. You’re still going to get those Spirit Shards from the non-Hero Point skill points, unless they’ve said something contrary to that.

Yeah I would just stand in LA and my inventory would all of a sudden get full of Tomes and Skill scrolls while I did nothing. I dont know how that would happen.
Its great because I could just leave for work with the game on and come home with enough in my inventory to level a toon.

Get real dude, actually I did work to level that toon. Just on another toon. No it wasnt passive, it required action to accomplish it.

No I didnt PvE to do it, I WvW and PvP’d to do it. And from a perspective of challenge, I would personally say both of those game modes are by far more challenging than PvE.

From a perspective of a person who has played many other games even gw1. The fact that you can pretty much walk around any of these maps naked with no weapons and not die while opening the map, the PvE in gw2 has been unimpressive to me.

nightblood.7910:

MiniEquine.6014:

nightblood.7910:

Yeah but what people seem to forget about is that, you have to do more to open current functionality of your toons. Everyone seems to be putting this into a perspective of having to do 65 challenges on ONE toon.

Nah now its all my alts. Having to do the same crap over and over and over again on each one to get the same functionality I currently have.

Then on top of that, I still have to do more for elites as there are 220 hero points after the 400 they give you from leveling.

So if its going down to zero. To fully open a toon I have to do 220 X 9 hero skill challenges? Screw you. 1 toon yeah whatever I would probably do it anyway, but after that WTH?

Part of the problem with this argument, though, is that you technically didn’t do anything to get most of those skill points on your alts. Skill scrolls are found passively; they just sort of stockpile from random stuff if you don’t use them. If you spend all of them on a level 2 alt that has done nothing then you could buy (nearly) every skill possible. But that isn’t doing anything. You aren’t losing actual progress. You are losing skills that you currently have unlocked, but that’s because of the system change. You’re still going to get those Spirit Shards from the non-Hero Point skill points, unless they’ve said something contrary to that.

Yeah I would just stand in LA and my inventory would all of a sudden get full of Tomes and Skill scrolls while I did nothing. I dont know how that would happen.
Its great because I could just leave for work with the game on and come home with enough in my inventory to level a toon.

Get real dude, actually I did work to level that toon. Just on another toon. No it wasnt passive, it required action to accomplish it.

No I didnt PvE to do it, I WvW and PvP’d to do it. And from a perspective of challenge, I would personally say both of those game modes are by far more challenging than PvE.

Strawman much? I didn’t say you get them for standing around and you know it. You get them passively by playing the game. Fact is, if your character is level 80 you will have almost everything available to you to begin with. If it’s not, Tomes still work and provide a large amount of the points. PvP is irrelevant because there’s literally no need for scrolls or tomes in PvP. The only issue is with WvW, and I agree that something should be done about that, however the only real solution I could see is making WvW have “instanced” skills and traits similar to PvP. Maybe you have to earn these by doing WvW instead (like unlocking “WvW Hero Points” according to your rank or something). I know of many players who almost exclusively do WvW (I’m in a WvW guild) and I don’t think it’s fully fair to have pure WvWers not be able to unlock all the skills for WvW when PvP doesn’t have to touch either game mode at all.

shrug have 12 character thats i play….all of them just from leveling from 1-80 have 20-40 skill points just from running around doing random things on different maps on them. Not to worried anyways because i only use 2-3 builds per character and based off what they said..being able to unlock almost everything by the time you get to 80, not worried about it all.

nightblood.7910:

Yeah but what people seem to forget about is that, you have to do more to open current functionality of your toons. Everyone seems to be putting this into a perspective of having to do 65 challenges on ONE toon.

Nah now its all my alts. Having to do the same crap over and over and over again on each one to get the same functionality I currently have.

Then on top of that, I still have to do more for elites as there are 220 hero points after the 400 they give you from leveling.

So if its going down to zero. To fully open a toon I have to do 220 X 9 hero skill challenges? Screw you. 1 toon yeah whatever I would probably do it anyway, but after that WTH?

Something about the math here doesn’t sound right. Either it will take fewer than 220 Hero Points, or a skill challenge will worth more than 1 Hero Point, or there will be a lot more ways to earn Hero Points (hopefully including WvW).

But if it really did take 220 skill challenges per character, I think that would be worthy of complaint. I just think that somehow the situation will not be that bad.

MiniEquine.6014:

nightblood.7910:

MiniEquine.6014:

nightblood.7910:

Yeah but what people seem to forget about is that, you have to do more to open current functionality of your toons. Everyone seems to be putting this into a perspective of having to do 65 challenges on ONE toon.

Nah now its all my alts. Having to do the same crap over and over and over again on each one to get the same functionality I currently have.

Then on top of that, I still have to do more for elites as there are 220 hero points after the 400 they give you from leveling.

So if its going down to zero. To fully open a toon I have to do 220 X 9 hero skill challenges? Screw you. 1 toon yeah whatever I would probably do it anyway, but after that WTH?

Part of the problem with this argument, though, is that you technically didn’t do anything to get most of those skill points on your alts. Skill scrolls are found passively; they just sort of stockpile from random stuff if you don’t use them. If you spend all of them on a level 2 alt that has done nothing then you could buy (nearly) every skill possible. But that isn’t doing anything. You aren’t losing actual progress. You are losing skills that you currently have unlocked, but that’s because of the system change. You’re still going to get those Spirit Shards from the non-Hero Point skill points, unless they’ve said something contrary to that.

Yeah I would just stand in LA and my inventory would all of a sudden get full of Tomes and Skill scrolls while I did nothing. I dont know how that would happen.
Its great because I could just leave for work with the game on and come home with enough in my inventory to level a toon.

Get real dude, actually I did work to level that toon. Just on another toon. No it wasnt passive, it required action to accomplish it.

No I didnt PvE to do it, I WvW and PvP’d to do it. And from a perspective of challenge, I would personally say both of those game modes are by far more challenging than PvE.

Strawman much? I didn’t say you get them for standing around and you know it. You get them passively by playing the game. Fact is, if your character is level 80 you will have almost everything available to you to begin with. If it’s not, Tomes still work and provide a large amount of the points. PvP is irrelevant because there’s literally no need for scrolls or tomes in PvP. The only issue is with WvW, and I agree that something should be done about that, however the only real solution I could see is making WvW have “instanced” skills and traits similar to PvP. Maybe you have to earn these by doing WvW instead (like unlocking “WvW Hero Points” according to your rank or something). I know of many players who almost exclusively do WvW (I’m in a WvW guild) and I don’t think it’s fully fair to have pure WvWers not be able to unlock all the skills for WvW when PvP doesn’t have to touch either game mode at all.

Well youre not getting what Im saying. Your arguement is saying that I earned them passively and did nothing to earn those things and your only idea of progress in this game is centered around PvE.

Yet Ive played 1000’s of PvP matches, Ive got a toon for every aspect of WvW from roaming to zerg busting to whatever. Ive opened all my WvW points. To say Ive done nothing and have put no time in the progression of my toons is BS just because I bypassed story progression to do it and did it in the mode of the game where I enjoy the most.

I bypass certain things in game because I get insanely bored with PvE. I dont have legnedaries because well Im probably not going to spend my time running around mindlessly for world completion.

My very sarcastic argument is really to shut down the idea that if you dont do the work on the toon in the story modes and story progression that you “didnt do anything” to achieve that.

To say that you passively earned those things while playiung the game, wouldnt that be in ever aspect of the game? You passively leveled your character while playing the game, you passively gained skill points while playing the game even if they are not scrolls. Thats every game mode and every possible way to level and open things on the toon.

You cant even argue intent.

MiniEquine.6014:

Part of the problem with this argument, though, is that you technically didn’t do anything to get most of those skill points on your alts. Skill scrolls are found passively; they just sort of stockpile from random stuff if you don’t use them. If you spend all of them on a level 2 alt that has done nothing then you could buy (nearly) every skill possible. But that isn’t doing anything. You aren’t losing actual progress. You are losing skills that you currently have unlocked, but that’s because of the system change. You’re still going to get those Spirit Shards from the non-Hero Point skill points, unless they’ve said something contrary to that.

He did what the game allowed him to do. Since when exactly is the player’s fault for the game’s lack of vision. Ankittenhe only one here that remembers the accessibility and alt friendlyness of the game? What happened to that? What’s next? Separate wallets and currencies for our alts?

Skills scrolls were found by playing the game. If the game didn’t want him to do that, they shouldn’t have allowed it in the first place. Hardly his fault.

And you are correct, he isn’t loosing actual progress. He’s loosing FUNCTIONALITY. Gained via the game’s mechanics. And unless them spirit shards can be used to get yourself the remaining 65 “hero” points he needs, they’re useless to him.

What’s happening here is the game punishes the players for playing in the way it allowed them to play. By creating alts. Now creating alts is bad, and instead of moving into a more unified system concerning alts we’re getting mixed signals. Mastery points common for all, but kitten you go grind 65 hero points on all 8 alts you got. Cause we’re alt friendly like that. This stinks miles away that it is something that was produced when a dev was taking a dump at some point, and he was high enough in the hierarchy of the company that nobody dared suggest to him that it’s a system that punishes a huge part of the game’s fanbase -for no good reason-. And that is the important bit, there is absolutely no good reason, nothing to be gained by forcing all alts to grind 65 points again. Nothing. Well except people getting bored and leaving the game or commiting to one main character and abandoning the game a bit later cause they can’t stand the same gameplay again and again.

And since i don’t want to be all negative, here’s a proposal. make hero points just like mastery points. common for all characters and be done with it. In fact, make an effort to streamline world exploration to be shared across all alts or at the very least make it so that the second time you’ll have to world explore, your alt will have an advantage of sorts. Or don’t, but make up your mind anet, alt friendly or not for the game and commit. Commitement is nice. Makes the world predictable and nobody feels cheated

nightblood.7910:

MiniEquine.6014:

nightblood.7910:

MiniEquine.6014:

nightblood.7910:

Yeah but what people seem to forget about is that, you have to do more to open current functionality of your toons. Everyone seems to be putting this into a perspective of having to do 65 challenges on ONE toon.

Nah now its all my alts. Having to do the same crap over and over and over again on each one to get the same functionality I currently have.

Then on top of that, I still have to do more for elites as there are 220 hero points after the 400 they give you from leveling.

So if its going down to zero. To fully open a toon I have to do 220 X 9 hero skill challenges? Screw you. 1 toon yeah whatever I would probably do it anyway, but after that WTH?

Part of the problem with this argument, though, is that you technically didn’t do anything to get most of those skill points on your alts. Skill scrolls are found passively; they just sort of stockpile from random stuff if you don’t use them. If you spend all of them on a level 2 alt that has done nothing then you could buy (nearly) every skill possible. But that isn’t doing anything. You aren’t losing actual progress. You are losing skills that you currently have unlocked, but that’s because of the system change. You’re still going to get those Spirit Shards from the non-Hero Point skill points, unless they’ve said something contrary to that.

Yeah I would just stand in LA and my inventory would all of a sudden get full of Tomes and Skill scrolls while I did nothing. I dont know how that would happen.
Its great because I could just leave for work with the game on and come home with enough in my inventory to level a toon.

Get real dude, actually I did work to level that toon. Just on another toon. No it wasnt passive, it required action to accomplish it.

No I didnt PvE to do it, I WvW and PvP’d to do it. And from a perspective of challenge, I would personally say both of those game modes are by far more challenging than PvE.

Strawman much? I didn’t say you get them for standing around and you know it. You get them passively by playing the game. Fact is, if your character is level 80 you will have almost everything available to you to begin with. If it’s not, Tomes still work and provide a large amount of the points. PvP is irrelevant because there’s literally no need for scrolls or tomes in PvP. The only issue is with WvW, and I agree that something should be done about that, however the only real solution I could see is making WvW have “instanced” skills and traits similar to PvP. Maybe you have to earn these by doing WvW instead (like unlocking “WvW Hero Points” according to your rank or something). I know of many players who almost exclusively do WvW (I’m in a WvW guild) and I don’t think it’s fully fair to have pure WvWers not be able to unlock all the skills for WvW when PvP doesn’t have to touch either game mode at all.

Well youre not getting what Im saying. Your arguement is saying that I earned them passively and did nothing to earn those things and your only idea of progress in this game is centered around PvE.

Yet Ive played 1000’s of PvP matches, Ive got a toon for every aspect of WvW from roaming to zerg busting to whatever. Ive opened all my WvW points. To say Ive done nothing and have put no time in the progression of my toons is BS just because I bypassed story progression to do it and did it in the mode of the game where I enjoy the most.

I bypass certain things in game because I get insanely bored with PvE. I dont have legnedaries because well Im probably not going to spend my time running around mindlessly for world completion.

My very sarcastic argument is really to shut down the idea that if you dont do the work on the toon in the story modes and story progression that you “didnt do anything” to achieve that.

To say that you passively earned those things while playiung the game, wouldnt that be in ever aspect of the game? You passively leveled your character while playing the game, you passively gained skill points while playing the game even if they are not scrolls. Thats every game mode and every possible way to level and open things on the toon.

You cant even argue intent.

Two things: You, personally did stuff. Your alts did not. The system is changing for that. However…

I agree there is still the issue of WvW. I am not only looking at this from a PvE perspective, and I hope they address WvW. You don’t get skill points from PvE story mode, you get them from skill challenges and leveling up. There aren’t anywhere near enough skill challenges in WvW to have players who only do WvW to be able to get all of the builds. The strawman comes about because you think I’m only talking about PvE, which I am not.

I made this post, since, for the foreseeable future (next 2 years) they will not possibly be able to come out with enough specializations to accommodate the hundreds of hero challenges found in the world. (including the new ones found in HOT)

Since all players will already (for the next few years) have a surplus of hero points if they finish map completion, how could a couple extra hero points damage the new system.

Allowing players to build hero points (12 in total) in wvw, would simply alleviate some frustration players are feeling about having to go into the world to gather hero points to unlock skills they may currently have access to.

Lets be real, the players most upset by these changes are the pvp and wvw crowd. Most of which will enjoy wvw more than map completion.

I’m not completely against the new system. I’m sure some altoholics aren’t happy, but it won’t be so bad given how much we get from simply leveling to 80. (~85%) I just hope they allow wvw and pvp players the ability to go into pvp zones and gather a few extra hero points.

PorceleinEve.2973:

And since i don’t want to be all negative, here’s a proposal. make hero points just like mastery points. common for all characters and be done with it. In fact, make an effort to streamline world exploration to be shared across all alts or at the very least make it so that the second time you’ll have to world explore, your alt will have an advantage of sorts. Or don’t, but make up your mind anet, alt friendly or not for the game and commit. Commitement is nice. Makes the world predictable and nobody feels cheated

I don’t see anything wrong with this. Ultimately, when they release more E.specs, they are going to require more Hero Points to unlock everything up to the maximum obtainable Hero Points. That would essentially mean world completion on every character and I do think that is ridiculous. But right now the system is sort of broken. It should have never been implemented the way it is, in my opinion.

I, too, want to hear what Anet has to say about all of this. Many people say you can get those extra 67 Hero Points in “an afternoon”, but frankly that is utter BS. It’s going to take literal months for some people to get their alts up to the level of Hero Points required for everything + E.specs, and most of it is repetitive stuff. If they are implementing a system for masteries, maybe they are going to implement a system for Hero Points. Heck, there’s a huge thread on it that they have never responded to yet, which makes me think:

1) they are deliberating their options and haven’t concluded anything yet on how they do this for alts or
2) they already have a decision about what will be done and are waiting until their reveal schedule allows them to talk about it more.

MiniEquine.6014:

1) they are deliberating their options and haven’t concluded anything yet on how they do this for alts or
2) they already have a decision about what will be done and are waiting until their reveal schedule allows them to talk about it more.

3) They’re hoping it will all go away once HoT launches and people go out and do their skill hero challenges like good little worker ants because they have to in order to keep access. Perhaps, a year later, they will introduce alternative ways to get Hero Points to great fanfare.

I think 3 fits the experience of the last three years a little closer than 1 and 2.

I have no idea how easy it would be to implement, but it would be nice if they added some kind of WvW reward that allowed you to select a Hero Challenge from Tyria and automatically complete it for the hero point without having to actually go do the challenge.

This would allow WvW players to get the hero points they need without having to do PVE while keeping the number of hero points available to players consistent across game types.

That’s an interesting idea, glehmann. I’d suggest that the available Challenges for selection be those in the starter areas. Or, better, that the WvW player doesn’t get to choose which one opens, it’s just the next one in a sequence starting with the easiest ones to get in PvE, allowing for any they’ve done in person. Otherwise they’d be nabbing all the ones in Orr to save going there later if they decide to do PvE challenges after all.

With apolgies to the great Kevin Kline:

Whenever someone uses the word, “Strawman,” my kitten begins to twitch.

Sariel V.7024:

With apolgies to the great Kevin Kline:

Whenever someone uses the word, “Strawman,” my kitten begins to twitch.

It’s the name for the fallacy. There’s not much I can do about that.