Guild Wars 2

Whether ANet will admit it or not, the HoT maps are horrendous to navigate. Even after you’ve been through it, it still very difficult to find your way around. Perhaps after a few thousand visits it might be committed to memory, but that’s not the kind of game I like playing. (Especially at MY age.)

So, and idea: After a character has been through a passage, from then on that passage should be displayed in the mini-map (and the world map) by transparent colored lines. Use one color for higher and one for lower. I recommend green and red.

For color-blind folks, allow them to use dotted or dashed lines.

The further a passage is away from your character, the more intense the color (or more frequent the dots). Or, perhaps, the closer ones are more intense.

The same effects could be used in core for caves, tunnels, rivers, and overhead passages. However, there aren’t nearly as many in core.

Daddicus.6128:

Whether ANet will admit it or not, the HoT maps are horrendous to navigate. Even after you’ve been through it, it still very difficult to find your way around. Perhaps after a few thousand visits it might be committed to memory, but that’s not the kind of game I like playing. (Especially at MY age.)

So, and idea: After a character has been through a passage, from then on that passage should be displayed in the mini-map (and the world map) by transparent colored lines. Use one color for higher and one for lower. I recommend green and red.

For color-blind folks, allow them to use dotted or dashed lines.

The further a passage is away from your character, the more intense the color (or more frequent the dots). Or, perhaps, the closer ones are more intense.

The same effects could be used in core for caves, tunnels, rivers, and overhead passages. However, there aren’t nearly as many in core.

I confess I don’t know my way around the maps, but I think that’s me for not spending the time to learn the maps. I don’t think it’s ANet. The only thing I’d change is make it clear on the map where there are gates and choke points, that only allow one way through. Often, the map shows a path, but in-game, you’ll hit a wall of some sort.

I’m not against ANet making the maps easier. I just don’t agree with the OP that it’s endemic to the map.

Tangled Depths is the worst offender for me, I admit a tend not to go there quite often because I hate it, but sometimes it’s kittening difficult to navigate.
I recall with horror the start of the expansion when I still didn’t have nunoch wallows, what a kittening nightmare.

The places themselves are great. But the mini map is horrible, that IS true. A map that doesn’t help you navigate is not a map, is a decoration.

Unknown territory is supposed to be difficult to navigate at first. Have you ever been in an actual jungle? Tangled Depths is exactly how it’s supposed to be. And if you go there often enough, you will know exactly where to go and how to get there. It just requires a bit more effort than the vanilla maps, but they were just flat lands anyway (never mind the mountains; there is absolutely no challenge in crossing vanilla maps).

I have mapped all the new zones on at least 8 or 9 different characters. I pretty much had them memorized after the 2nd one. They are though the 1st time, that’s part of why it’s called exploration. There is nothing wrong with the new maps, they were very well designed.

I agree that the mini-map needs to be improved to show a greater disparity, visually, between elevations. The opacity/transparency is not stark enough to determine on mini-map where you are.

I don’t find them to be confusing after spending some time in them, there are many visual landmarks and the types of monsters in the area that help knowing where you are. In a way I find it easier to navigate in the HoT maps without the map than it is to navigate a map like Harathi Hinterlands without the map.

Even so, a navigation helper like the one you get for the story, but only for places you’ve already visited would probably help a lot, you click the point you want to go to and the arrows will guide you there. You would still need to explore new places on your own without the guide but you could revisit any place easily.

Said it before, and I’ll say it again: Custom map markers. Account bound markers so players can do their own bits of cartography and have it stick between characters.

I recall a few days ago, Tangled Depths was a daily, and I was actually somewhat eager for it. I don’t do much on that map, but I was going to slap around some meta events and actually participate. I found a roving event map icon, and …I couldn’t get to it. Try as I kittening might, I could not find the actual event, even though I coursed every path I could find around it. That’s not really acceptable, ANet.

Navigation needs some kind of help, and it’s probably too much work to make better actual minimaps. (If it weren’t so much work, they might have gotten them right the first time…)

If anything, there need to be a ton more mushrooms, wallows, updrafts, and laylines out there to help in navigating some of these semi-parallel paths that have terrain barriers in the way.

A few thousand visits? Not really. A few metas will open up most of any map. If you want to explore outside that then head to dulfy and mmorpg life for maps and YouTube for videos on how to get around.

Instead of complaining learn the maps. You get used to it after a couple of hours/days there. The minimap isn’t much of help, true. They could make them better.

Daddicus.6128:

Whether ANet will admit it or not, the HoT maps are horrendous to navigate. Even after you’ve been through it, it still very difficult to find your way around. Perhaps after a few thousand visits it might be committed to memory, but that’s not the kind of game I like playing. (Especially at MY age.)

So, and idea: After a character has been through a passage, from then on that passage should be displayed in the mini-map (and the world map) by transparent colored lines. Use one color for higher and one for lower. I recommend green and red.

For color-blind folks, allow them to use dotted or dashed lines.

The further a passage is away from your character, the more intense the color (or more frequent the dots). Or, perhaps, the closer ones are more intense.

The same effects could be used in core for caves, tunnels, rivers, and overhead passages. However, there aren’t nearly as many in core.

Tangle depth is the most fun map of them all but I like to explore the map it might not be the same for every one. I find the chest and stuff on the map the hidden area jp or some npc for special achievement.

maybe the fact that it is made on multiple level gives a higher complexity. and the mini-map does not give a very good result of that. even the big map sometime to find the way point is kind of hard to find being to transparent because it is not on the same level that you are currently on the map.

the only solution explore the map and get to know it better. once you know it well it is more easy to travel. I have went across all map with 9 character. so of course I am getting pretty good and knowing the map. practice makes perfect.

yes some stuff could be better represented on the big map. like way point they could make the way point less transparent even if you are not on the same level. but some time you get a different map part since you are on a different level. not much to do there. on less they add a number on the side of it level 1 level 2 level 3 on the map. would give you idea of where is the map part that you are looking at. maybe something similar on the mini- map. to give example in the grove or rata sum it is multi-level on the map and sometime trying to figure out what is the level and where the place you need to go to is a little challenging well hot map are like that they are more on the vertical compare to the 1 or 2 level map in tyria.

yes it is different from what you are used to yes it is more complex and can take a little more time to get used to. exploring is part of the game. if you would not have to explore and would know where every thing is from the start it would be a little boring and less challenging.

also if you look at the big map you can trace your steps that can help to know where you come from and where you are going. there is a dot where you are and a line that trace the path that you made.

Ardid.7203:

The places themselves are great. But the mini map is horrible, that IS true. A map that doesn’t help you navigate is not a map, is a decoration.

Yeah, and a decoration that takes up space. It’s nearly useless in those zones.

TheNecrosanct.4028:

Unknown territory is supposed to be difficult to navigate at first. Have you ever been in an actual jungle? Tangled Depths is exactly how it’s supposed to be. And if you go there often enough, you will know exactly where to go and how to get there. It just requires a bit more effort than the vanilla maps, but they were just flat lands anyway (never mind the mountains; there is absolutely no challenge in crossing vanilla maps).

Did you read the part where I said “After a character has been through a passage, from then on …”?

nsleep.7839:

Even so, a navigation helper like the one you get for the story, but only for places you’ve already visited would probably help a lot, you click the point you want to go to and the arrows will guide you there. You would still need to explore new places on your own without the guide but you could revisit any place easily.

And, I wouldn’t be opposed to having the extra help gradually appear. The first time through a tunnel, make it very faint, or leave most of the line off. As the toon goes through again and again, make the lines more defined, until they’re complete after maybe 5 times through (or whatever).

General Health.9678:

A few thousand visits? Not really. A few metas will open up most of any map. If you want to explore outside that then head to dulfy and mmorpg life for maps and YouTube for videos on how to get around.

They’re no help while you are playing. And, they “count” as part of those visits.

I admit, though, that “thousand” was hyperbole. But, it’s not a small number.

(Of course, part of it is my age — I even forget my kids’ names sometimes. Grandkids I still remember, though. Maybe because they’re cuter.)

A 2D mini map is not ideal for a 3D world.

DoctorDing.5890:

A 2D mini map is not ideal for a 3D world.

That’s sure true!

I don’t find the maps all that confusing. Even TD becomes fairly easy once you take the time to learn and navigate it.

DoctorDing.5890:

A 2D mini map is not ideal for a 3D world.

I’m generally good about using the map layers and height indicators. That’s.. passable. A solid B (maybe B-).

What actually gets to me more than anything, which is made particularly painful in Tangled Depths beyond anywhere else, is the map is blobby and featureless with regard to the actual terrain.

I could be following a supposed path on the map only to find it’s blocked by a wall. So what does that obvious, brown, winding stripe on my map for? I have no indication, and the map is actively deceiving me. What it comes down to for me is that it’s not Tangled Depths itself that overly bothers me, but the map itself is a poor guide for navigation.

Let that sink in. The map. A thing used for navigation. Is bad for navigation.

Daddicus.6128:

TheNecrosanct.4028:

Unknown territory is supposed to be difficult to navigate at first. Have you ever been in an actual jungle? Tangled Depths is exactly how it’s supposed to be. And if you go there often enough, you will know exactly where to go and how to get there. It just requires a bit more effort than the vanilla maps, but they were just flat lands anyway (never mind the mountains; there is absolutely no challenge in crossing vanilla maps).

Did you read the part where I said “After a character has been through a passage, from then on …”?

Yes, I did. Which makes me wonder, why do you need the minimap if you already know the way? And if you don’t know the way, you probably need a few more traversals of the map. Just because map design and traversal was more than easy before HoT, doesn’t mean that HoT maps are difficult. A little bit more effort, that’s all it takes. If they’d made jungle maps as easy and straightforward to traverse as the vanilla maps, I would be highly disappointed, because jungles are anything but easy and straightforward. In fact, it could be even harder because in a real jungle, the way you took last week might be completely changed or overgrown and not look like it used to. As it is, the HoT maps are static; they remain the same at all times.

So first you complained about difficulty, then grind, and now map complexity. I think I’m sensing a pattern here. lol

And don’t give me this age stuff. I have a guild full of people who are older. One guy is in his 70s. A few people in their 60s and I’m 54. My wife is my age and she can get easily anywhere in any of the zones. It’s not an age thing.

I think it’s a phobic thing. People scare themselves and make it harder than it is. Of all the maps, only TD is confusing in any real sense of the word, and once you have wallows unlocked it’s not hard at all.

Between Teku Nuhoch and The Confluence waypoint, you can get almost anywhere in the zone. Maybe a couple of hard places to get, but it’s on you. Easy enough to figure it out if you want to.

Rauderi.8706:

DoctorDing.5890:

A 2D mini map is not ideal for a 3D world.

I’m generally good about using the map layers and height indicators. That’s.. passable. A solid B (maybe B-).

What actually gets to me more than anything, which is made particularly painful in Tangled Depths beyond anywhere else, is the map is blobby and featureless with regard to the actual terrain.

I could be following a supposed path on the map only to find it’s blocked by a wall. So what does that obvious, brown, winding stripe on my map for? I have no indication, and the map is actively deceiving me. What it comes down to for me is that it’s not Tangled Depths itself that overly bothers me, but the map itself is a poor guide for navigation.

Let that sink in. The map. A thing used for navigation. Is bad for navigation.

The map is a huge part of it, yes. Even in Verdant Brink I have issues navigating since the mini- and full map (M key) don’t show how complex it really is. Sure, you get the “Underground”, “Surface”, and top layer options in the main map, but that doesn’t show the different levels just on the surface. If it could be more refined, make the layering more obvious, it would be a huge help for navigation.

Vayne.8563:

So first you complained about difficulty, then grind, and now map complexity. I think I’m sensing a pattern here. lol

And don’t give me this age stuff. I have a guild full of people who are older. One guy is in his 70s. A few people in their 60s and I’m 54. My wife is my age and she can get easily anywhere in any of the zones. It’s not an age thing.

I think it’s a phobic thing. People scare themselves and make it harder than it is. Of all the maps, only TD is confusing in any real sense of the word, and once you have wallows unlocked it’s not hard at all.

Between Teku Nuhoch and The Confluence waypoint, you can get almost anywhere in the zone. Maybe a couple of hard places to get, but it’s on you. Easy enough to figure it out if you want to.

What about players who really do have memory issues…? Just because you know gamers who are older, doesn’t mean all are that way. Also, some players do just have trouble navigating such layered zones, and are not “scaring” themselves out of it. Lots of variety of gamers exist in GW2, so we all have our own personal strengths and weaknesses.

Being one of those ‘older’ players, perhaps the phrase should have been ‘because of my memory issues’, rather than ‘because of my age’. =)

I do wonder, when I follow a path shown on the map, why it is blocked for me. I thought I just didn’t have some certain Mastery, or it is only open during/after some event. /shrug

What you really want is something like the 3D map in the new Doom.

Try making a map with layer-wallow connections.

Moyayuki.3619:

Vayne.8563:

So first you complained about difficulty, then grind, and now map complexity. I think I’m sensing a pattern here. lol

And don’t give me this age stuff. I have a guild full of people who are older. One guy is in his 70s. A few people in their 60s and I’m 54. My wife is my age and she can get easily anywhere in any of the zones. It’s not an age thing.

I think it’s a phobic thing. People scare themselves and make it harder than it is. Of all the maps, only TD is confusing in any real sense of the word, and once you have wallows unlocked it’s not hard at all.

Between Teku Nuhoch and The Confluence waypoint, you can get almost anywhere in the zone. Maybe a couple of hard places to get, but it’s on you. Easy enough to figure it out if you want to.

What about players who really do have memory issues…? Just because you know gamers who are older, doesn’t mean all are that way. Also, some players do just have trouble navigating such layered zones, and are not “scaring” themselves out of it. Lots of variety of gamers exist in GW2, so we all have our own personal strengths and weaknesses.

Anyone I know who has memory issues, uses pen and paper to their advantage. They write stuff down. They make notes. It’s not hard. It’s what we all used to do.

If you don’t want to do that, and compensate for your own issues, you can always watch videos which show you want to do. You can watch them over and over again if you like.

I’m colorblind and I’d love to see a colorblind mode. But by the same token I don’t let it stop me from playing the game. I’m proactive. I find work arounds.

To some degree, we control our destiny. It’s better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness. Of course, some would rather curse the darkness.

I actually enjoy Tangled Depths because of its convoluted layout. Compared to the simpler maps in vanilla GW2, I feel that the scale of TD’s map, combined with the many layers, tiny nooks and crannies, and overall ‘wild’ landscape just makes the place feel super realistic and immersive for me.

There’s nothing more satisfying than being able to glide onto a perch in the canopy, then taking a couple of minutes to just survey the beauty and the lay of the land below you, or dropping from the surface into an underground river channel and having to follow it into a cavern chamber where the air is thick with mushroom spores.

That aside, I have the admit that the navigation map doesn’t do justice to the myriad complexities of the Tangled Depths map, which is truly a pity. Especially in the early stages, I recall being EXTREMELY frustrated because there was a boss battle going on nearby and I was 100% sure I was standing right over it, but the tunnel I was in was devoid of people (and the fact that you can see other player’s chat right through the walls was super annoying, lol).

Perhaps if I were to suggest a compromise for the future, ANET could possibly design maps where major causeways (eg roads that lead to other maps, or where teamwork is required – since you need players to get there successfully) remain at surface level (so you can be sure the path trail on the map reflects exactly what you can see).

That way players can get to important destinations easily, while ANET can still insert hard-to-find, high-rewards challenges that can only be found off the beaten track.

Side topic: My definition of ‘hard-to-find, high-rewards challenges’ would probably be jumping puzzles and bosses that are designed such that solo players can handle on their own (or otherwise, easily accessed, say, via a portal).

To be honest after map completing the HoT maps and getting my masteries I hardly bother with them anymore and just stay in Tyria. Since the rewards are not that great with the exception of the meta events why bother. I enjoy running around in Tyria so much more.

One solution for improvement is have a mastery that allows players to use contested waypoints.

Hope Anet is listening for the next expansion.

Practically all HoT waypoints are uncontested with few exceptions.