Guild Wars 2

… at least according to the White Knights anyway… that we were only 1% of the player population who were busy whining on the forums while everyone else was (ahem) busy playing the game ?

So what changed. I guess ANET knew all along that casuals made up the majority and were less willing to put up with the grind while hardcores would stick with the game no matter what.

Anyway… THANK YOU THANK YOU for the Hero Point change ANET !

thank you!!! anet for the changes i need to type more apparently so now im typing more i hope its lets me post this next time am i done yet ok shoud be good

THANK YOU!

i’m part of the hardcore farmers. And I got my herald completed few days ago and i found the 400 limit to be asburded.

again the problem of this is all is anet spent 3 years of gw2 being a casual Friendly game, HoT launches and puts in actual mmo stuff and casuals whine

It’s the other way around, the super hardcore, play all day type people are the 1%. You can’t balance a system around people who do a week’s worth of gaming in a day or two.

Hexalot.8194:

… at least according to the White Knights anyway… that we were only 1% of the player population who were busy whining on the forums while everyone else was (ahem) busy playing the game ?

So what changed. I guess ANET knew all along that casuals made up the majority and were less willing to put up with the grind while hardcores would stick with the game no matter what.

Anyway… THANK YOU THANK YOU for the Hero Point change ANET !

Yep spot on, Wildstar is a cautionary tale for any developer about what happens when you focus only on hardcore players.

It’s funny. I consider myself a casual, even though I’ve got 4,600 hours in the game, 14,200 points and am Silver level in WvW (prbly 3,000 hours in WvW maps) and multiple Ascended items.

I just didn’t want to be FORCED to do stuff.

Just bought the expansion and will quickly level up with my World Completed Engi.

I’m a casual and I HATE the change. Please don’t lump me in with you people.

Dengar.1785:

I’m a casual and I HATE the change. Please don’t lump me in with you people.

Woa…. what do you mean… “you people”?

Dengar.1785:

I’m a casual and I HATE the change. Please don’t lump me in with you people.

Yeah a casual who already has the 400 hero points to unlock your elite…….

morrolan.9608:

Dengar.1785:

I’m a casual and I HATE the change. Please don’t lump me in with you people.

Yeah a casual who already has the 400 hero points to unlock your elite…….

He may not have it, but he enjoys the progression.

BTW OP calling anyone who liked the previous way or defends stuff that takes more than a few days a white knight makes you look pretty bad.

Raziel.4216:

morrolan.9608:

Dengar.1785:

I’m a casual and I HATE the change. Please don’t lump me in with you people.

Yeah a casual who already has the 400 hero points to unlock your elite…….

He may not have it, but he enjoys the progression.

BTW OP calling anyone who liked the previous way or defends stuff that takes more than a few days a white knight makes you look pretty bad.

Nonsense… the only people I’m calling White Knights are those who insult and denigrate the Casual players (calling them the 1% who “complain” on the forums ?)

I am causal player, i also disagree the changes. As a causal player, i think it is interesting for me to reach the goal step by step, it’s a fun thing to do, is that what we are looking for playing mmorpg? We put afford in game and enjoy the accomplishment.

It’s not the casuals who are upset. It’s the hard core speed runners who want everything now.

I always found it funny when people always try to speak on behalf of Anet or any group of players when it suits their agenda, and naturally suddenly it turns sour when it no longer suits their agenda.

Besides, if we want generalizations, what can satisfy hardcore farmers? They complete the content in days, possibly less via exploits, and then complain when there’s nothing to do and then move on like locusts to the next big hype to something even more hardcore. So what’s the point? Just give them a hamster wheel. It’s like a never ending black hole of desire; so what’s easier to please anyways?

Pezz.4758:

thank you!!! anet for the changes i need to type more apparently so now im typing more i hope its lets me post this next time am i done yet ok shoud be good

THANK YOU!

good job Anet, Finally you listened to the correct majority.

LOL at the others that are not happy about the change.

That was the historic way to develop an MMO. Giant hamster wheels of level bumps and gating top gear behind RNG rewards in raids.

Hexalot.8194:

casuals made up the majority

This has been true ever since WoW popularized MMOs years ago. Most players also play solo, only PvE and only a small percentage visits the forums.

Actually most “casuals” by definition dont spend time on the forums, so theres really no way to tell what they want. This is why its sometimes a bad idea to listen to the forum “majority”. I mean not in this case, who cares if its easier to do something that would have taken a week at most the old way, but come on, saying you know what the majority really wants is just silly.

Casuals are the majority on just about any MMO these days. If you want to see the success of a game catering to hardcores, go take a good long look at Wildstar.

Why this surprises anyone is…kinda weird.

ArchonWing.9480:

I always found it funny when people always try to speak on behalf of Anet or any group of players when it suits their agenda, and naturally suddenly it turns sour when it no longer suits their agenda.

Besides, if we want generalizations, what can satisfy hardcore farmers? They complete the content in days, possibly less via exploits, and then complain when there’s nothing to do and then move on like locusts to the next big hype to something even more hardcore. So what’s the point? Just give them a hamster wheel. It’s like a never ending black hole of desire; so what’s easier to please anyways?

Thats the point – some customers are just not worth the effort. Most of games are letting them go, and, in subtle (and in some less subtle ways) letting them know they are letting them go and number of games that cater to them has been dwindling rapidly, thets why theyre so kittened off.

And what kittenes them off even more – games are doing just fine without them since their mantra was that games will die without them.

I don’t think ‘Hardcore’ players were the only group that might have hated the change or liked the change. It’s probably those with a strict sense of wanting progression in the game, which can hit a lot of catagories of players.

Honestly, HP acquisition just for the sake of reaching your full elite spec I am personally OK to lowering, at first I saw 250 and kinda wanted 300 just so players getting their elite specs won’t get it in the first 30 minutes of entering VB with masteries leveled…

But the more I thought about it, I felt 250 is right where it needs to be. Besides, we will all need map completion when the HoT Legendaries release, so we all still need to level to reach those few HPs for the completion bonus.

I will only have an issue if:

- They reduce the Experience for the Masteries as a whole.
- They touch ANY amount of difficulty in the region as a whole.

Give us a difficult region, give us an end-game with our 80s and cut us loose. We will be grateful.

It has very little to do with being casual.
I have nearly 9k hours, and thought 400 points too much effort for the elite specs.

“Casuals” generally don’t go to the forums, they just stop playing. People who post on forums or other community websites are often the minority. I’d say even the people who’ve complained so far, are above casual because they actually care enough to leave feedback. Most people would just get a refund or quit if they weren’t enjoying themselves.

Coyote.7031:

“Casuals” generally don’t go to the forums, they just stop playing. People who post on forums or other community websites are often the minority. I’d say even the people who’ve complained so far, are above casual because they actually care enough to leave feedback. Most people would just get a refund or quit if they weren’t enjoying themselves.

I agree. In most cases casuals do not visit the game’s forum.

Hexalot.8194:

… at least according to the White Knights anyway… that we were only 1% of the player population who were busy whining on the forums while everyone else was (ahem) busy playing the game ?

So what changed. I guess ANET knew all along that casuals made up the majority and were less willing to put up with the grind while hardcores would stick with the game no matter what.

Anyway… THANK YOU THANK YOU for the Hero Point change ANET !

What is this? Did you just create a threat to say “I told you so”?

The entire game was based for causals until this HoT HP came out, then ppl started QQing hard over it, really really hard over it, so much so they where giving the game bad reviews etc, so Anet caved in and lowered it to 250,

I don’t see what the issue was, since HoT Launch I managed to get up to around 310 HP and ive only been in 2 of the new maps, ( granted older points where already awarded from previous events etc )

The only people who I can see having a genuine problem are PvP and WvW, both these game modes should have had it fully unlocked upon entering, but when you leave these areas and go back into PvE it becomes gated again,

I find it disappointing that Anet changed this less than a week after launch to appease a few people compared to the game population, yet major topics about loot nerfs across the game go completely ignored, and the massive exploit that is CoF farming for mastery points is still allowed.

I’m super happy with the change. I’d only had enough points to just barely get my Dragonhunter elite spec and almost no skills in it. Now I have Dragonhunter and 30% of its skills to play with. This change helped a lot in enjoying the class more without having to grind away at skill points for me.

I’m casual, I didn’t even finish the base game(even though play it for over a year now) and I was happy with the 400hero point cost even though it meant I won’t be able to unlock all traits and skills for my elite spec for several months to come. I had my new weapon, one new skill and it was enough for me. Made me feel I have things to work for and look forward to.

If you define hardcore players as people with time and energy to grind out 400 hero points in a day of playing…

Those “filthy casuals” pay for Arenanet’s development process. The less time you spend in game the more likely you will have cash to pay for gems ; the more likely you will buy gems with real cash than in game gold. Likewise, the more time you spent in game farming the more gold you will have.

The whole reason for GW2’s success thus far is providing a MMO experience without the need for MMO grinding for gear and basic game mechanics. The lack of a monthly fee means there is less incentive for them to care as long as they sell more copies. All the cosmetics in the gem store are a perfect example. You wouldn’t put it as a RNG drop if you don’t have a subscription. Gold farmers ,exploiters,cheaters are a scourge to a game with a cashshop. They use up bandwidth and don’t provide a welcome environment for casuals.

The core philosophy should be “is it fun?” That’s what sells more copies to “casuals”. The more farming is encouraged for basic game mechanics, the more toxic the game will become. Look at dungeons, speed runs make people ping gear. That is fine because repeating dungeons over is designed to be optional. The very concept of fractals is a more extreme case: the gear is highly influential to player performance.

Do you really want elitist jerks all over the place ruining the experience for new players? A box sale is $50 for Arenanet.

The problem with the reduction in hero points was the maguuma hero points should have counted towards the skins like Living Story. Suddenly having a reaper hood isn’t so cool anymore because it is not as exclusive. I don’t remember anyone complaining about Luminescent armor or the ascended gear from the Living Story achievements.

The people not statfocused, such as role players , might want the skills on their alts but not want to grind out hero pts. The WvWers (including player-made GvG) that don’t want to play PvE on their alts need a better way to gain hero pts. Keep in mind the only reason to have more than one of every class is roleplay (race,gender) or preset WvW builds. The only people exempt are PVPers with instant full unlock.

Arenanet was on a slippery slope when they introduced ascended armor with better stats. When you have any player with a non-cosmetic difference, there is an issue.

Just think about it. The people that were complaining about it (forum can be posted on via smartphone) instead of playing HoT don’t have access to the game because they are either working or in school. If they linked it to their account they cannot get a refund so the obvious choice is to complain and hope it gets fixed. The more alts you have (once again ,cash shop for character slots) the more it affects you. The people that don’t care about HoT whatsoever would just quit if they were looking for what GW2 was advertised as. The zones themselves are mostly empty from reports in guild chat.

Expect more changes to HoT towards the casual side in the future.

Hope that elucidates some of it for you from a business standpoint.

Hexalot.8194:

Nonsense… the only people I’m calling White Knights are those who insult and denigrate the Casual players (calling them the 1% who “complain” on the forums ?)

I hope you see how hypocritical that is. Why not just be the better person.

Did they take hero points out of the game? I just don’t get why people say we ruined the game for wanting to play our elites through the new content. If you want to spend 20-40 hrs getting points and slowly unlock your new spec more power to ya. You can still do that and no one’s stopping you.

But calling people criers, whiners, babies, terrible casuals , or w/e else- without having a reasoned argument as to why we blew up everything that’s descent and pure doesn’t really help your cause.

GW2 is a feel good MMO the type of game you log into to actually relax and have a good time with friends. Other MMO’s like WoW are jobs and that type of thing leads to the toxic community you see in those type of MMO’s. The Casual as you so call it are the 99% of this game as elites know the system in this game isn’t for the hardcore since it boils down to timed dodges and rallying, If you know how to dodge you will never die regardless of class and even bads who are terrible with there class can take down any boss if they simply know proper dodging. Puts a rather glaring how in the concept of difficult content as even these so called impossible to solo events are soloable if you have your movement down.

All that said to state people were to busy playing the game is ludicrous because the compaints were specific enough to come from the very people playing the game. They experienced it by playing and thus the made there complaints known the white knight more than likely never played HoT they lack sympathy or empathy and none of there counters were specific enough to prove they actually experienced or even comprehended what the complaints were from the get go. The very reason the OP topic remains is that other people are satisfied with the changes so the number of complaints naturally will go down. Personally I still have one complaint which deals with dungeons the change to rewards has nothing to do with gold if that was the case they would’ve changed SW so white knights are invalid in there economy claims. The devs themselves stated it was to drive people into Fractals and which raids will no doubt cover if not increase the amount of gold into the economy once their up and running. Problem is dungeon shards for legendaries are still needed and people simply don’t do dungeons anymore a person can’t even find a paid run for Arah much less a group these days. PvP exists but I’d like another way to collect dungeon shards like shards of Zhatian since dungeons are basically ghost towns these days. I’m working on my 2nd legend and I have a friend who was excited about pre crafting but recently depressed since he can’t farm the 500 shards as he hasn’t found a dungeon group in days.

Dengar.1785:

I’m a casual and I HATE the change. Please don’t lump me in with you people.

Life out here in the jungle is harsh.

Ok I Did It.2854:

appease a few people compared to the game population

Sorry, but this is BS.

Casuals hardly ever go to forums. They refund and walk away.

Forum goers are a minority, a much more invested and vocal minority.
And judging by the length and number of threads saying this was a problem I’d say that pretty clearly indicates the large majority of forum goers felt that, well, this was a problem.

Which makes you the very small minority of a very small minority.
And by your own logic, they should not do things to appease you.

See how that works?

I was ok with the 400 hero points, but 250 I think is better. It rewards people for playing older content earlier and getting world completion, as well as making future characters for alters easy to level and get to the point where they can finally start experimenting.

As long as they don’t touch the difficulty of mobs in the jungle, I will be happy, as fighting these things are some of the most fun I’ve had in a long time.

I spent most of my time since Friday doing Halloween stuff, I have also done a bit of WvW, a bit of PvE on the old maps, a bit of PvP and maybe half a day on the new content where I have only done parts of the first two maps.
I will be looking at doing more of the new content when the Halloween is over (Why did they release the new content at the same time as the Halloween event?)
I had fully unlocked (as in trained all 400 points required) Druid on my ranger. 400 points was perhaps a little tough but not entirely unreasonable and it felt like I had made an effort to achieve something.
I would point out that these were meant to be ELITE SPECIALIZATIONS.

And here I thought we were all gamers, but thanks for contributing to the hate talk.

Guess why so many people register as ‘casual’ with a limited time budget?
Read any recent statistic about Gamers – many of us are part of the working population or even have a family to take care of, thus limited time to grind stuff for hours on end.

I didn’t mind the 400 point wall (much). On the other hand, I am quite happy that I’ll be able to try out the elite specialisations on my alts, too – I have so little time left for gaming that the new requirements make it much easier for me to actually enjoy the content at my own pace.

Yeah I was kind of bummed when I logged in yesterday and the elite on my warrior was complete. I was pumped about completing it in maybe a week or so. Like a fun goal to work towards with cool rewards. Other chars/prof would have been a pain to get to 400 but it seemed like a good way for me to actually group up with other people to complete the hero points or learn the prof better. Its not like it was 400 different hero points all of the ones I ran into in HoT were worth 10. Looks like I’ll just stick to my solo roam and find a new goal.

It’s the other way around, gw2 has never been a hardcore game nor should it be one. There are plenty of other games for the hardcore experience.

This is correct, the game was designed and made for casual gaming to begin with. Why do you think they would ever abandon the casual types to focus on hardcore? Sure they will put a little bit in for them, but the main focus is always gonna be the casual gamer. You guys trying to change this into a HC game is like taking WoW and getting rid of Raids….

So…..as a “casual” who is often labeled a “White Knight”, I find the OP mildly offensive. As for the claim that casuals were 1% of the game…..huh?! Where the heck did that come from? People have been saying (for years) that casuals were the vast majority of the game’s players.

Still, beyond all of that….what Hero Point change? I obviously missed something between when I played Monday night and now. I was wondering why when I logged in this morning, my 214 HP on my ele required respending. Didn’t get to it though, didn’t have time for the clicking.

Nvm, Dulfy the Savior has the details I require. lol

I casually play the game a lot, not sure where I fit in??

400 was too many, 250 maybe a little too low, but at least you know they are try to accommodate the player base.

+10 to Anet.

This isn’t a casual vs hardcore issue imo, it’s a fundamental difference in how people prefer to play their games. There are those players like me (Im casual) who play games for fun, are not in any hurry to finish them, and like the feeling of gradually working toward a goal. It took me two years to get my Bolt, for example. I didn’t burn out because I don’t play games for the soul purpose of reaching the carrot at the end of the stick asap. The other kind of player, is the player who needs everything right now because reasons. They throw up this facade about grinding this and grinding that, but really they shall never be happy, because deep down they aren’t really enjoying the game for the sake of having fun, they have conditioned their minds to require reward as fast as possible. It is these kinds of players who have been loudly complaining about the content being “gated” when in reality, it’s this deep rooted assumption that they must be rewarded simply for existing. I fear that they will not be happy, because psychologically they have conditioned themselves to always need something more. It’s sad, but they represent a growing trend in gamers who have become dependent on gaming as a lifestyle choice, instead of something that they simply enjoy.

The weird thing is that although hardcore players represent hardly 1-5% of the entire game population, they are the most vocal group. They are usually the people that write on reddit, forums, blogs and whatever. This means that at least maintaining a status quo with hardcore players is important to game’s image. Its like with motorcycles: I’ve seen people shun a tyre because “it has some weaknesses when driven at lean angle”, even though 99.5% of all motorcycle riders will never ever touch the tarmac with their knees. Its the same here: if a game is known to have “too easy raids at legendary difficulty”, it sounds off-putting, even though 99% of all players will never ever experience that difficulty level.

I think ANet’s approach is a very reasonable compromise. They try to maintain the positive image of their game by offering some things that cater more to the hardcore players, while being in good contact with the majority of the player base. They had their PR difficulties in the past, but I think they have learned a lot over the last few years. Go Anet!

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

So…..as a “casual” who is often labeled a “White Knight”, I find the OP mildly offensive. As for the claim that casuals were 1% of the game…..huh?! Where the heck did that come from? People have been saying (for years) that casuals were the vast majority of the game’s players.

Still, beyond all of that….what Hero Point change? I obviously missed something between when I played Monday night and now. I was wondering why when I logged in this morning, my 214 HP on my ele required respending. Didn’t get to it though, didn’t have time for the clicking.

Nvm, Dulfy the Savior has the details I require. lol

I’ve already made it clear (in this very thread) that by “White Knight”, I’m referring to that sub-category of player who enthusiastically defends the game, but then take it too far by belittling those who don’t cherish the same things they do (in this case, ultra-hard and/or grindy content). If someone has only nice things to say about GW2 but then leaves it at that, I don’t really see them as WKs… albeit my definition may vary from others.

As for the “1%” comment, you clearly haven’t been following (or have been following but it just didn’t offend you ?) the hate threads before the HP change where a common theme was that complainers… who were typically casual… were the only ones on the forums making negative posts and hence were a small minority… since all the “happy gamers” were busy playing the game !

I don’t mind much one way or the other about 400 vs 250 HP for the specializations. Going forward, it’s fine. However, the change itself made me a bit sad.

I was enjoying my Tempest, unlocking new traits and skills over time. I was about halfway done! I logged on last night to do a quick round of Mad King Says, not knowing about the change. Got in to my character and ‘Master Tempest’ pings.

Yay. I guess… Really earned that one!

Hexalot.8194:

As for the “1%” comment, you clearly haven’t been following (or have been following but it just didn’t offend you ?) the hate threads before the HP change where a common theme was that complainers… who were typically casual… were the only ones on the forums making negative posts and hence were a small minority… since all the “happy gamers” were busy playing the game !

You’re misrepresenting the posts. If anybody ever claimed that only “1% of the game’s playerbase were casuals” then they were smoking something. In fact, I would posit that even the whitest of knights never made that claim. What they did say was that the people making the posts were a small minority of the playerbase. Just because those people may have been casual (some actually were also hardcore players but focused on WvW almost primarily) doesn’t imply that the white knights were attacking casual players, but rather the vocal “minority” on the forums opposing the changes.

Were they correct about this group actually be a minority? Not really. As others have stated, this game is made of mostly of casual players, but a majority of those casual players don’t visit the website or message boards, a smaller amount of that group don’t visit the forums, and those few that do visit the forums often don’t comment. It is difficult to determine whether the forums actually represent the total player population properly without real statistics from Anet, but the fact is that the forums primarily draw in the extremes rather than the regular casual.

Hexalot.8194:

I’ve already made it clear (in this very thread) that by “White Knight”, I’m referring to that sub-category of player who enthusiastically defends the game, but then take it too far by belittling those who don’t cherish the same things they do (in this case, ultra-hard and/or grindy content). If someone has only nice things to say about GW2 but then leaves it at that, I don’t really see them as WKs… albeit my definition may vary from others.

Generally speaking, just defending the game is enough to get labeled a white knight. Regardless of insults slung or criticism offered at any other time. So yes, you’re definition varies a bit.

Hexalot.8194:

As for the “1%” comment, you clearly haven’t been following (or have been following but it just didn’t offend you ?) the hate threads before the HP change where a common theme was that complainers… who were typically casual… were the only ones on the forums making negative posts and hence were a small minority… since all the “happy gamers” were busy playing the game !

Oh, I’ve been here since beta. There been plenty of hate threads from both sides – “its too easy” “its too hard” blah blah from both sides of the fence. However, the general consensus has always been that the game was made for casuals and that’s the majority of the player base. The current whine-fest is no different than any other.

I think I may have been in a few of the HP hate threads (400 was a “bit” of a shock to the system) but there was griping from the “hard core” in them too, since they “expected” to have the elites right off the bat. Wouldn’t even say that the majority of the comments were from casuals, seemed a decent mix. But, the forums in general are the minority, most people (happy, discontent or otherwise) just don’t bother.

Lost in Hyrule.2963:

I don’t mind much one way or the other about 400 vs 250 HP for the specializations. Going forward, it’s fine. However, the change itself made me a bit sad.

I was enjoying my Tempest, unlocking new traits and skills over time. I was about halfway done! I logged on last night to do a quick round of Mad King Says, not knowing about the change. Got in to my character and ‘Master Tempest’ pings.

Yay. I guess… Really earned that one!

Well, you did technically. You personally earned all the hero points you did. Part of the issue with the 400 points was that if you didn’t have core Tyria map completion finished you would need to do between about 20-40 Maguuma Jungle hero point events to fully unlock the elite spec. Now you still need to do some, but it’s between 7-25, which is a little less stressful especially for altoholics.

I’ll admit that I was a little bummed because I just finished getting all 400 of the hero points for my Scapper build earlier that morning, but my Guardian will get his elite spec before leaving the Verdant Brink now because of the changes. It’s difficult for me to complain.