Guild Wars 2

I’ve copied and pasted from the thread about Reddit quotes to generate a critical (positive or negative) discussion on the story and how it came to be so short and missed out so many key details for many.

It’s an interesting clarification, however it sounds like they boxed themselves in either by constraints on resources or by putting so much into a cliffhanger ending for S2, they felt they had nowhere else to go, but follow through with a rapid fire plot which left a rushed HoT ending and added many unanswered questions. I also think they seem intent on either delivering as a “summer blockbuster” or as a tv serial in presentation – neither of which are appropriate in my mind for a video game medium. Continuing on the good work in Nightfall, EOTN and Beyond is perhaps where they should be going in my opinion instead of emulating styles from different mediums – something which rarely works.

There were of course improvements to instance length, dialogue, characters. It seems to be the narrative, lore inclusions and actual plot which is the sticking point for many (from what I can ascertain).

If we want to improve the story going forward, this is place to pull together ideas, point where it went right and crucially where it specifically went wrong and how it could have been improved.
This is not the place to insult, bash or mock the devs so I ask please keep it civil (for as long as possible anyway..)

Yeah, our story teams are smaller, more tight-knit groups of devs…a combination of narrative designers and gameplay designers are the core of the teams that implement story. But you pretty well described how we work – lots of meetings and discussions that focus on character and plotting at the front, then we prototype/rough in the major beats and fill out details as we go. Story in particular goes through a LOT of iteration.

It’s easy for people not in the trenches to think that “higher ups” dictate things from on high, but that’s just not been the case at Arenanet. While yes, there are always certain constraints that we have to work within, the team is as involved in those decisions as anyone at the top. I honestly can say that we made the best story that we could given the team and the resources that we had. It’s easy to look back on it now and say “we should have done this” and “we could have done that”, but at the end of the day we had to believe in what we shipped, or we wouldn’t have shipped it – that is the bottom line. I can say that we’ve read all the feedback, both positive and negative, about the decisions that we made as a team, and we’re committed to continuing to improve our story-telling the more that we do.

I appreciate the clarification. And the honesty, so let me be honest back. From a player’s POV, I definitely prefer games that take their time to develop a rich world and story and I personally strive to deliver that as much as possible in the content I’m responsible for.
Heart of Thorns however, was a very peculiar case for us in that the story’s pacing from the get go just never felt right to us whenever we stopped the action to go into the deeper lore behind everything. When your game’s story begins with a tragedy of epic proportions and there’s a need to maintain the time pressure of the drama we’re working within, any stops along the way felt artificial to us during development. We did have plans to delve more below the surface with some areas, but because of the concerns we had with maintaining the narrative momentum, we opted instead to let those tales be told outside of the instances and through open world exploration (the “story” of Guild Wars 2 is not just about the chapters you see in the journal, or at least, it’s supposed to be) so that the story would be more focused on finding and rescuing your allies. Clearly, that decision was not popular with some of our players, and we’re taking that feedback as a learning experience. I guess the way I have come to think about it looking back is that I think we approached HoT story more like a “summer blockbuster” than a 13 episode run of your favorite TV show – which was a departure for us and quite possibly too far outside the comfort zone of many of our players who are invested in the GW2 story.

Looked at through that lens when answering the question “Was I happy with the pacing?” I would say that yes, with some notable exceptions, I was happy because we met the goals we set for ourselves and delivered a “blockbuster” ending – of course it wasn’t perfect, and there are always things I can look back at and say we could have done better, but I would disagree that there was a lack of any kind of emotion (and I realize that’s my subjective opinion, but it’s my honest opinion).
The exceptions where I might have done things differently with would have been: 1. It would have helped for us to have re-framed or spent more time on the discovery of Mordremoth’s weakness and 2. I would have wanted to go back and add non-VO text conversations on the PC’s allies throughout the story so that we could have given more optional background information or additional context that was lost by us choosing such a deliberate pace.

(quotes are from Lead Story writer Matthew Medinas replies on Reddit – I didn’t add in the questions since the answers should provide enough context and there is some toxicity from Reddit questions I didn’t want to bring across)

Randulf.7614:

1. It would have helped for us to have re-framed or spent more time on the discovery of Mordremoth’s weakness and 2. I would have wanted to go back and add non-VO text conversations on the PC’s allies throughout the story so that we could have given more optional background information or additional context that was lost by us choosing such a deliberate pace._

(quotes are from Lead Story writer Matthew Medinas replies on Reddit – I didn’t add in the questions since the answers should provide enough context and there is some toxicity from Reddit questions I didn’t want to bring across)

Thanks for posting this. I found it very interesting. I think your summary of his comments are spot-on, too. They did seem to set themselves up pretty high.

I really agree with the part about spending more time on the dragon’s weakness – more information, more lead up, so it made more sense when our characters came up with their final plan of attack. And while I wouldn’t say that the story was completely lacking in emotion, I would still say that it just wasn’t enough in places to be believable for the events that occurred.

It would be cool if they could take more time with future installments of the story, though. Sometimes, it’s those extra little details that can really make a difference and add a lot to a narrative.

Celtic Lady.3729:

It would be cool if they could take more time with future installments of the story, though. Sometimes, it’s those extra little details that can really make a difference and add a lot to a narrative.

Yes very much so. Strong stories are creeping into the MMO genre a lot lately – TSW, SWTOR and FF14 to name just 3. GW2 has spent a great deal of time refining its open world to a point where perhaps story has suffered. The personal story barely used the world it lived in and now HoT is skipping through the maps like a stone on the waves.

Expansion stories need meat – much more so than the season intervals. HoT needed to be comparable to at least half length of the PS, as it was we had the shortest story arc yet.

Perhaps the continuous story isn’t working and we need to return to the days of complete campaigns, which link together rather than trying to emulate TV series or one long story chopped up. Whilst the quality of the personal story wasn’t as high as Anet have proven they can write, it was complete.

I think it’s a poor excuse. Given that the story has been in a poor state since the release of GW2. Only to for to continue to be on a roller coaster of mix bag of ambiguity in post development. First I want to say that the gameplay choices in those personal story instance in HoT was a enormous improvement over anything before it. The narrative on the other hand was just tacky. It just copied and pasted the whole final act from GW2 main personal story with Zhaitan. Meaningless/predictable deaths sequences, ludicrously rushed character development, and another main antagonist death that felt anticlimactic.

Season 2 while good in varying points started to throw up warning signs to me that HoT was going to suffer. First we had the problem where our PC (playable character) threw out the name Mordremoth as if we knew it for a very long time. Without any explanation how we found out about it. However in an unofficial interview we find out that we knew it simply because we were apart of the pact (guess our PC know Steve’s real name). The second warning sign is what happen to Rytlock. The one character who is a walking brooding/ambiguity fluff ball gets zapped into another dimension. In the words of the exposition king with a severe lack of personalty Trahearne “this won’t end well.” Final warning sign for me was Caithe stealing the egg. Even the Pale Tree is confused by this outcome.

HoT was one giant stumble. I felt so detached from it’s not even funny. It’s like watching an M Night Shyamalan movie (post Lady in the Water) and hoping to be entertained. Also instead of proving me wrong about those narrative warning signs from season 2. Minus the straight out over exaggerated/fabrication they were doing in pre-HoT interviews, about the certain sub plot lines actually mattering (Nightmare Court anyone). I found out I was right about all of them. Including pulling a plot threads out of thin air, or making our PC say/do unrealistic things. Yes, I am looking at you Buried Insight and Heart and Minds story instances. By the end Rytlock wasted more time telling us how unimportant it was to question his present massive plot hole existence. Then it took for us to learn how to eliminate dumpy mental projection Mordy in Hearts and Minds. Not only that but Caithe had another Wild Hunt to protect the egg that (again) the Pale Tree was not aware about……… sigh.

You know what the best thing is now that HoT is over. Hopefully no more horrendous Sylvari main plot threads in this game. I know we still have to deal with Canach (his plot threads being less insufferable) and the Pale Tree (Glint 1.5), but at least no more dents to the Sylvari (damaged beyond repair) in game lore. It has been more cringe worthy compared to how boring the Norn and Human neutered lore we have been given.

To be quite frank: If your passionate about your work as a writer, and you start seeing these glaring errors then you will do everything you can to fix it. Not just move on and accept it as it was totally flawless piece of work. As matter of fact if your that passionate you would tell management to delay some of these chapters to do it correctly. I understand that transitioning from a person who solely writes novels/short stories to a person who writes for a video game can be rough. However don’t treat it as a passing hobby. We know when your faking your enthusiasm, especially in interviews.

“It’s easy to look back on it now and say “we should have done this” and “we could have done that”, but at the end of the day we had to believe in what we shipped, or we wouldn’t have shipped it – that is the bottom line.”

Lol.

I work in publishing. And I can tell you from a novelist and editor’s standpoint, it’s rushed. Because the public expected a novel or epic. Instead, they got a novella at best and a short story at worst. Maybe even micro fiction depending on your viewpoint.

If ANet advertised and released it as a short story, then no . . . it’s not rushed. But they released it as a full-blown epic. And that’s the issue: expectation.

When I ask readers to buy a novel for 20-40 dollars, they expect a certain amount of pages or word count. When they buy a novella or short story, they expect to pay 5-10 dollars.

And that’s the problem with the story in Heart of Thorns: it lacks meat.

Players paid 50-100 dollars for a novella when they expected a sweeping epic on a grand scale.

I’m not saying Heart of Thorns didn’t have its moments, but let me say this: I play casual. But, in less than a month, I finished all the storyline in the expansion. I know some did it in less than a week.

That’s not a lot of bang for your buck by any means for an expansion . . . especially if you paid top dollar for it.

Again, expectations were not met, and it rubbed a lot of players raw.

I don’t understand it Guildwars 1 had an amazing story, probably the best mmo experience i ever had story wise and team play wise..

But Guildwars 2 no idea what happened but it all fell apart right from release for me, and the living story just never washed with me either..

Just feels sub par in every single way to me.

Bare in mind the heart of thorns story is better than Guildwars 2 and i really really love the new conversation setup the expac has over the weird chat scenes we had in the Guildwars 2 story.

I really love seeing my character converse in the world all the time it feels real and much better.

For me the devils in the details, the Heart of thorns story feels lacking, there is no deepness to the story, the characters feel one dimensional and its all go here, go there, occasional cut scene etc..