Another Daredevil Rant
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So I take it you wanted Thief rifle?
That’s too bad, it didn’t happen. Daredevil is what you’re getting and there’s absolutely zero hope of them changing that by October 23.
But good news! They plan to continue adding new Elite specs to the game, and “Sniper” is like 60% likely to be the next Thief spec at this point. Who knows when they plan to get those out, but when they do, you can play that. Until then, Play the Daredevil, or don’t, because that’s the spec that will be available for Thieves. If you want range, maybe go Dragon Hunter?
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I did want rifle, but that’s not what its about. They could have given thieves a Warhorn if it’d been balanced. This ain’t.
Impact Strike won’t be a big deal most of the time. The only time it’ll be a factor is if they can drop someone mid-attack and finish them with the last bit. If the enemy is already downed then it won’t be much faster than normal finishers, will be easy enough to interrupt or avoid, and has a cooldown so they can’t use it all that often. If it does cause problems then they can always tweak it. Overall, I plan on playing a DD on my main, and have no particular interest in swapping out Thieves Guild for it.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Not released, not even beta tested. Good reason to rant.
You have 2 ranged sets, maybe it needs improvement but Thieves certainly don’t need a 3rd ranged set. Why would you need more ranged than melee ? Also the staff provides AoE, something the thief was lacking.
And they absolutely don’t need 1200 range.
What I’d like to see is more unique specializations, for thief something not focused on dodging or stealth (but then again, those are so core to the class how far from that can you go without simply being a different class?)
Like GS thief
Hammer mesmer
Rifle Ele
Dagger warrior or guardian
“The short answer is that new content is not going to drive people away from the game.
There is absolutely no evidence to support that it would.” -AnthonyOrdon
There is absolutely no evidence to support that it would.” -AnthonyOrdon
And they absolutely don’t need 1200 range.
What I’d like to see is more unique specializations, for thief something not focused on dodging or stealth (but then again, those are so core to the class how far from that can you go without simply being a different class?)
Like GS thief
Hammer mesmer
Rifle Ele
Dagger warrior or guardian
Dagger Guardian would be a really interesting take on a Ritualist.
So? Did you try the tempest spec for elemental? With a burning condition focus build, the damage they do is outlandish and if remains will likely be the meta for the class. So thief will have a buddy.
Damage values and even the way skills work may be adjusted down before or after launch. And they will if they need adjustment.
You have 2 ranged sets, maybe it needs improvement but Thieves certainly don’t need a 3rd ranged set. Why would you need more ranged than melee ? Also the staff provides AoE, something the thief was lacking.
Because MH Sword didn’t have a high-damage hindering cleave for an autoattack or anything. Oh, no.
The gadzooking worthless low-damage null-value badly animated total-junk Staff DOESN’T EVEN HIT MORE TARGETS THAN SWORD DOES. You have to spend Initiative to get Weakness on Staff, instead of it being baked into the AA on Sword, the Staff deals half the damage Sword does…
The Daredevil’s utilities and traits look like they could be a ton of fun. But I have no interest whatsoever in the weapon. MH Sword does more with its autoattack than the entirety of the Staff across all five skill slots. Utter, criminal waste of a weapon.
The gadzooking worthless low-damage null-value badly animated total-junk Staff DOESN’T EVEN HIT MORE TARGETS THAN SWORD DOES. You have to spend Initiative to get Weakness on Staff, instead of it being baked into the AA on Sword, the Staff deals half the damage Sword does…
Actually it does. Vault hits 5 targets. No sword, dagger or pistol skill hits 5 targets. Ergo, is more AoE than sword is.
As for the damage values, it’s meaningless to talk about them too much and complain so hard, when nothing is set in stone. Remember that the revenant staff basically nearly doubled all it’s damage values in a patch :o
The gadzooking worthless low-damage null-value badly animated total-junk Staff DOESN’T EVEN HIT MORE TARGETS THAN SWORD DOES. You have to spend Initiative to get Weakness on Staff, instead of it being baked into the AA on Sword, the Staff deals half the damage Sword does…
Actually it does. Vault hits 5 targets. No sword, dagger or pistol skill hits 5 targets. Ergo, is more AoE than sword is.
As for the damage values, it’s meaningless to talk about them too much and complain so hard, when nothing is set in stone. Remember that the revenant staff basically nearly doubled all it’s damage values in a patch :o
Vault hits 5. Once. Also costs 5 initiative and takes a year and a half to execute due to its big spiraling leapy animation. Inherently not something one can use rapidly to burn down clustered groups of foes. That would be the autoattack, or low-init skills with quick animations, able to be used rapidly.
Specifically went to double-check just now – everything on the Daredevil’s staff except for Vault is 3 targets. its AA is 3, Weakening Charge is 3. Those are the only two attacks on the staff that can be realistically used to burn through groups of baddites.
Sword AA? 3 targets. Pistol Whip, possibly the best PvE cleave the Thief has access to? Also 3 targets. Those two skills give the Thief – or the Daredevil – Weakness, Cripple, huge evasion uptime, and vastly more damage than the staff pushes out. It doesn’t screw up your positioning, and the offhand Pistol gives you excellent control abilities.
Now, granted – the Staff AA does end in a whirl finisher, so in the occasion that you’re playing with a Camp Firemen Elementalist and can guarantee that you’ll be standing in a fire field 100% of the time, your Fiery Bolts help mitigate the damage woes. Do pardon me if I don’t see that as being a realistic expectation to have of your class, though.
Now, granted – the Staff AA does end in a whirl finisher, so in the occasion that you’re playing with a Camp Firemen Elementalist and can guarantee that you’ll be standing in a fire field 100% of the time, your Fiery Bolts help mitigate the damage woes. Do pardon me if I don’t see that as being a realistic expectation to have of your class, though.
It’s AA chain ends in a whirl finisher? How is that not amazing?
Maybe I’m just easily impressed but that’s really good!
You have 2 ranged sets, maybe it needs improvement but Thieves certainly don’t need a 3rd ranged set. Why would you need more ranged than melee ? Also the staff provides AoE, something the thief was lacking.
Because MH Sword didn’t have a high-damage hindering cleave for an autoattack or anything. Oh, no.
The gadzooking worthless low-damage null-value badly animated total-junk Staff DOESN’T EVEN HIT MORE TARGETS THAN SWORD DOES. You have to spend Initiative to get Weakness on Staff, instead of it being baked into the AA on Sword, the Staff deals half the damage Sword does…
The Daredevil’s utilities and traits look like they could be a ton of fun. But I have no interest whatsoever in the weapon. MH Sword does more with its autoattack than the entirety of the Staff across all five skill slots. Utter, criminal waste of a weapon.
Settle down sparky, you’re getting staff instead of rifle whether you like it or not. No need to have a tantrum.
Heh, doesn’t seem to’ve stopped the Elementalists pitching fits about the Tempest, eh?
And unfortunately, I do in fact realize that we’ll be getting the Staff whether we want it or not. I may well use the Daredevil spec, but I have no interest or intention of using the staff, save for maybe – maybe - its utility in cheating at jumping puzzles a’la Engineer’s Jump Shot. S/P Dodgedevil may well be worthwhile – but it would have been better with just about any other weapon choice, and I reserve the right to be bothered by it.
As for the ranged sets ‘needing improvement’…you’re aware that the Thief’s P/P set is one of, if not the, worst weapon sets in the entire game, right? It has been completely unusable since launch, and has only gotten worse since. Shortbow is generally considered to be very good – but not as a weapon. It deals junk for damage and is considered good basically for nothing but mobility and being a sack of blast finishers. The only time it was ever useful as a primary weapon was back when Lotus Poison was actually good.
So yes, since ArenaNet is either unable or unwilling to make the Thief’s ranged sets usable, while its melee sets are generally excellent, I would argue that we needed a ranged set worth using over a weak, cheap knockoff of Sword/*.
It’s AA chain ends in a whirl finisher? How is that not amazing?
Maybe I’m just easily impressed but that’s really good!
It’s a nice touch, but it’s sharply limited. It doesn’t mean a single thing if you don’t have a field to combo off of, and Thieves are extremely hard-up for useful fields. Sword dealing more than double the raw damage of Staff is immensely more reliable than Staff’s whirl AA, which is only really useful if, again, you’re playing in a group with very high field uptime. If you have one of those, awesome, but I don’t generally consider ‘optimal group composition’ to be a huge factor in balance. If your spec is awesome, but only if you have two allies constantly dropping fire fields on you…well, your spec is not awesome.
I actually enjoy P/P thief, its a bit more challenging but it functions ok (not to be confused with it works great). Thieves are not a ranged class, nor were they intended to be. The current Range sets could use some work, but, adding an entirely new ranged weapon gives them more ranged than melee, hell it gives them more ranged options than a Ranger, it doesn’t fix the current issues at all. The weapon sets as a theme are fine, they just need some tuning, what they don’t need is to be left as is and replaced because you want a rifle.
If ArenaNet wants to sit down, throw away the existing MH Pistol completely, and rework it from the ground up – which is about the only thing I can think of that would save it – then I’d be the first in line to cheer.
I don’t believe that’s ever going to happen. For whatever reason, ArenaNet is convinced that MH Pistol is fine and needs no additional help. If they believed otherwise, they would have fixed it by now.
Wanting to sell a new elite spec was about the only hope the Thief had for a ranged set that’s actually worth using, given that they’re either incapable or unwilling to do the work necessary to correct the existing ranged sets. Given that it’s now clear the Thief is never going to see a ranged elite specialization, I suppose we’re all just SOL.
As for Thieves’ "not being intended’ as a ranged class…pardon me, do you Wuv? Because Wuv roaming is the only place where people hold that opinion, and that is solely because they get horribly salty over the fact that Thieves are actually a semi-credible threat due to stealth. Everywhere else, stealth doesn’t do us half as much good, and being forced into kissing range at all times because our ranged options are literally worse than Guard scepter is a much bigger hit than stealth is a boon.
Signed. The whole OP post is spot on. I can’t believe that they are committing to a dodge build after nerfing thieves only pure damage ranged weapon to the point of uselessness—while giving guardians a backline weapon. More to the point, thieves typify the problem I have seen with every elite spec to date, and that’s that they are “elite” and by that I mean non-optional.
This is a just a straight buff to all thief builds that makes any thief not spec’s into this trait non-viable. The staff may be optional, but the Daredevil won’t, and we don’t understand yet right now what synergies will make other specs effectively non-viable as well. My instinct is that shortbow mains are a thing of the past since this OP (the other kind of OP) dodge buff is wasted on a ranged utility player.
I’m just soooo disappointed with HoT (and I’m very unexciting about the Revs), and so far that isn’t manifesting as switching from Thief to Guardian, it’s manifesting as switching from GW to other games.
You have 2 ranged sets, maybe it needs improvement but Thieves certainly don’t need a 3rd ranged set. Why would you need more ranged than melee ? Also the staff provides AoE, something the thief was lacking.
What are you talking about? The shortbow is so loaded with AOE that it’s functionally useless!
Though yes, I guess the thief has less AOE than they used to and was due for getting a little more, but that’s only because of the incredibly stupid decision to bounce richotte.
(edited by lukejoe.1592)
I did want rifle, but that’s not what its about. They could have given thieves a Warhorn if it’d been balanced. This ain’t.
And you know this how? Do you come from future where meta already shaped up with all the new specs and changes or what?
If ArenaNet wants to sit down, throw away the existing MH Pistol completely, and rework it from the ground up – which is about the only thing I can think of that would save it – then I’d be the first in line to cheer.
I don’t believe that’s ever going to happen. For whatever reason, ArenaNet is convinced that MH Pistol is fine and needs no additional help. If they believed otherwise, they would have fixed it by now.
I quite liked P/P when Ricochet was in. They need to just bring that back, maybe buff up a few other things but then pistol would be fine.
Given that it’s now clear the Thief is never going to see a ranged elite specialization, I suppose we’re all just SOL.
What makes you believe that they’ll “never” get a ranged elite? No reason it won’t be the next one. It actually seems the most likely contender at this point (although my vote is OH sword).
My instinct is that shortbow mains are a thing of the past since this OP (the other kind of OP) dodge buff is wasted on a ranged utility player.
Correct me if I’m off base here, but isn’t the Daredevil kind of great for Pistol and SB builds? I mean, it’s so much more mobile (I would go with “Unhindered”), which makes it much easier to kite enemies, and SB3 is an evade, which can benefit from some of the “on evade” traits. I could see ranged DDs as massive kite-trolls.
I mean, I’m not saying those builds will become the first choice, but they will at least be better off than they were before the DD.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
You have 2 ranged sets, maybe it needs improvement but Thieves certainly don’t need a 3rd ranged set. Why would you need more ranged than melee ? Also the staff provides AoE, something the thief was lacking.
Thieves are literally the only profession without a 1200 range weapon (even guardian scepter had that, and guardian ranged options were so terrible that fixing it was the entire point of Dragonhunter).
I can see your point and I’m sure Anet is taking this into consideration for the next set of elite specs they’ll release. Remember, this first set of 9 is only the first of many elite specs.
Who knows how or when they’ll release the future ones but they will come out.
I’m warning you now ANet, when this goes live, it’ll be a firestorm. It’ll be on any and every team comp for sPvP, and it’ll take over as the sole meta for PvE. Seriously, reconsider making this Elite Spec.
You sort of had me sympathizing with you until this part, which is actually quite far into your post so kudos to you.
However, Daredevil is the Elite Spec that will be released. Thieves do need better ranged options and I have no doubt this will come with a future E.Spec, but not this time. Daredevil looks fun and interesting, but it’s really just a dodgebot. If you think that’s going to completely destroy the meta well…I don’t know what to say. How about you just hang tight and see how it balances out, eh?
Thieves are literally the only profession without a 1200 range weapon (even guardian scepter had that, and guardian ranged options were so terrible that fixing it was the entire point of Dragonhunter).
Keep in mind that it launched with 1200 range SB attacks, and they deliberately nerfed that.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Keep in mind that it launched with 1200 range SB attacks, and they deliberately nerfed that.
Because Shortbow is just crazy overpowered, yeah? I mean, there ain’t nothing in the game that holds up against the ferocious torrent of brutal area-effect blows the Thief’s shortbow. There’s just no way the shortbow’s used as nothing but a brief mobility boost or a bucket of null-damage Blast finishers, right?
Actually…wait a sec…oh, yeah. Not a word of that is true. The Shortbow is garbage for damage, has been since the game launched, and has also systematically lost utility throughout the game’s lifetime. I haven’t been able to use Shortbow as a primary weapon since they decided to remove Lotus Poison from the game.
You have 2 ranged sets, maybe it needs improvement but Thieves certainly don’t need a 3rd ranged set. Why would you need more ranged than melee ? Also the staff provides AoE, something the thief was lacking.
Thieves are literally the only profession without a 1200 range weapon (even guardian scepter had that, and guardian ranged options were so terrible that fixing it was the entire point of Dragonhunter).
There’s a very good reason Thieves don’t have 1200 range, it’s been explained multiple times. No I won’t look it up for you, you can go digging for the multiple threads all on your own.
Here’s the thing, They seem to have decided that “Vanilla Thief should not have 1200 range,” which is why they nerfed the SB. One thing to keep in mind though is that if they do add the Sniper, it will be an Elite spec, meaning you will be forced to pick up that trait line, and all that comes with it. They can bundle in some targeted nerfs if they feel that the vanilla Thief would be too dangerous with 1200+ range. For example, I would expect them to make it either through spec mechanics or weapon skills, that a Sniper would have reduced mobility or stealth capabilities relative to the vanilla Thief. It would have to be balanced so that you would be deadlier at long range, but in more trouble once enemies corner you.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
There’s a very good reason Thieves don’t have 1200 range, it’s been explained multiple times. No I won’t look it up for you, you can go digging for the multiple threads all on your own.
Your ‘very good reason’ equates to ‘nobody in PvP wants to get head-shotted by a stealthy guy with high mobility, so Thieves should never have a ranged set!’
Fun fact for you – my flamethrower Engineer is more mobile than the majority of Thief builds. Often by a significant factor. Thieves are hardly the only class in the game that can build to be difficult to pin down. As for stealth and one-shots?
Don’t put a C&D equivalent on the ranged weapon set. Build the ranged weapon around numerous small hits (AR/SMG-style rifle skills, rather than sniper cannon), rather than single larger strikes. Done. I’ve had plenty of ideas for new and intriguing ranged sets for Thief that don’t center on BOOMHEADSHOT, both for potential Rifle and rebuilds of Pistol. Doesn’t matter what I think would be cool, though – that’s in ArenaNet’s hands.
Unfortunately. Since Arenanet pays undue attention to their PvP folks, and most of those are of the completely erroneous opinion that it’s impossible for Thieves to be built in such a way as to not be C&D spammers.
There’s a very good reason Thieves don’t have 1200 range, it’s been explained multiple times. No I won’t look it up for you, you can go digging for the multiple threads all on your own.
Your ‘very good reason’ equates to ‘nobody in PvP wants to get head-shotted by a stealthy guy with high mobility, so Thieves should never have a ranged set!’
Fun fact for you – my flamethrower Engineer is more mobile than the majority of Thief builds. Often by a significant factor. Thieves are hardly the only class in the game that can build to be difficult to pin down. As for stealth and one-shots?
Don’t put a C&D equivalent on the ranged weapon set. Build the ranged weapon around numerous small hits (AR/SMG-style rifle skills, rather than sniper cannon), rather than single larger strikes. Done. I’ve had plenty of ideas for new and intriguing ranged sets for Thief that don’t center on BOOMHEADSHOT, both for potential Rifle and rebuilds of Pistol. Doesn’t matter what I think would be cool, though – that’s in ArenaNet’s hands.
Unfortunately. Since Arenanet pays undue attention to their PvP folks, and most of those are of the completely erroneous opinion that it’s impossible for Thieves to be built in such a way as to not be C&D spammers.
First of its not “my” very good reason, several people have explained this and the absence of thieves having rifle leads many to believe that Anet also realizes the reason. Second stop man, you sound like a child, you are not going to get your way no matter how much you spaz, deal with it.
There’s a very good reason Thieves don’t have 1200 range, it’s been explained multiple times. No I won’t look it up for you, you can go digging for the multiple threads all on your own.
Your ‘very good reason’ equates to ‘nobody in PvP wants to get head-shotted by a stealthy guy with high mobility, so Thieves should never have a ranged set!’
Fun fact for you – my flamethrower Engineer is more mobile than the majority of Thief builds. Often by a significant factor. Thieves are hardly the only class in the game that can build to be difficult to pin down. As for stealth and one-shots?
Don’t put a C&D equivalent on the ranged weapon set. Build the ranged weapon around numerous small hits (AR/SMG-style rifle skills, rather than sniper cannon), rather than single larger strikes. Done. I’ve had plenty of ideas for new and intriguing ranged sets for Thief that don’t center on BOOMHEADSHOT, both for potential Rifle and rebuilds of Pistol. Doesn’t matter what I think would be cool, though – that’s in ArenaNet’s hands.
Unfortunately. Since Arenanet pays undue attention to their PvP folks, and most of those are of the completely erroneous opinion that it’s impossible for Thieves to be built in such a way as to not be C&D spammers.
Why give them yet another range weapon that relies on fast, small hits? P/P and Shortbow basically does this already…the “Sniper” archetype is something it doesn’t already have and could use. Though, I do agree with not giving it base stealth on the weapon (not that it would prevent you from slotting Shadow Refuge and Blinding Powder).
Several other people have explained why your ‘very good reason’ is so much bunk. Why’s your set of several people more worthy of being paid heed?
Yes. I understand the Dodgedevil is going to come out with staff and there’s nothing I can do about it. That’s fine – or if not fine, then at least accepted and dealt with. What bothers me is folks who, much like this one guy in a thread on the GW2 forums, seem to believe three things.
1.) that it is utterly, completely, and eternally impossible for ArenaNet to build a rifle (or longbow, or whatever) set for Thieves that would be reasonably well balanced and fun to use. Any ranged set the Thief gets that isn’t abhorrent garbage is automatically OP in PvP, and thus an abomination.
2.) That anyone who attempts to correct this impression, offer possible ideas on how a ranged set could be balanced out or implemented in a fair way, or who wishes that we had not gotten a weak AoE tool as our elite specialization’s new weapon, is a child pitching a tantrum and thus should just shut up and accept the fact that the Thief will never have a ranged set worth using. “Because stealth OP.”
3.) That we’re all trying to get the Dodgedevil changed into a sniper spec instead of butting heads with a bunch of stiff-necked folks who’ve decided what our opinions are for us and then told us we’re stupid for holding those opinions.
Lemme lay it out for you in plain words, Random – I don’t want a ‘Sniper’. You know what I want? I want a submachine gun kit for Thieves that hearkens back to tommygun-wielding gangsters or hood-wearing cybered-up Shadowrunners hammering back the po-po after a heist with an AVALANCHE OF LEAD. I want a 900-range rifle spec built on doling out a huge number of small individual hits.
I want a three-skill rifle AA chain, which lets them space out condition application or special effects so they don’t occur as frequently – just like they do in melee. I’ve been experimenting with it in my spare time, actually. Here, lemme show you:
“Double-Tap”: Fire two quick shots at your target.
>"Suppressing Fire": Fire three more shots at your target. The third shot inflicts Cripple (2s)
>>"Deadeye": Take aim and fire one last, high-damage shot at your foe right between the eyes.
Current iteration in my personal file. Deadeye’s a little flimsy, and I’m not sure whether a short Cripple on SF is too much for the set – the other option I’ve been toying with is Vuln on each hit from Double-Tap, as a sort of ‘flush target’ mechanic. Nevertheless, the whole thing, in my head, is tuned to sit at around three-quarters of the DPS of mainhand Sword’s autoattack. DT is as quick as the animators can manage, Suppressing Fire continues the pace, but Deadeye shoulders the gun and introduces a windup animation time that ArenaNet can play with to adjust final DPS of the chain as needed.
Also provides room for ArenaNet to fiddle with some interesting traits. One of my earlier ideas for a Pistol rebuild involved a three-skill revolver-style chain, each skill firing two shots. A potential trait notion (“Overheated Barrels”) allowed each of the final two shots to inflict Burning. Would be too much for every AA on a ranged attack to get…but if you split the attacks into chains and then modify only part of the chain, it’d space out the procs and give ArenaNet plenty of room to ensure that PvP folks could react and find room for counterplay.
Continue that feel throughout the weapon – have a rifle skill that hoses down enemies in a 600-range hipfire Spray-N-Pray cone in front of the character, something like ten peashooter attacks on up to five targets. Do a Dirty Rounds skill or something that inflicts gunky conditions. Make it feel less like a military-trained sniper and more like a hoodlum with an extremely illegal automatic weapon and an extremely poor sense of sportsmanship.
That would be completely amazing (final implementation dependent, of course), and yet probably outright noncompetitive in PvP. I doubt people would really care. Let’s face it – Thief players wouldn’t object to being able to Al Capone all over their enemies.
Would that really be so awful?
You clearly have cherry picked posts.
1) I have explained in other posts what would need to be done if players wanted a rifle spec (majority want sniper). So to be clear I’m not against them having a rifle, I’m against them having a sniper spec without the class being reworked to accommodate this type of spec. I don’t believe a thief should have more Ranged capability than melee, Equal is fine but more ranged than Melee is just silly (imo of course).
2) The horse is dead, stop beating it, let it rest in peace. If and when Anet announces they are adding a second Elite spec to all classes then it is a good time to request your tommy gun play style wishes. There is zero need for why it is a better option than staff at this point because you are getting staff. “Thief will never have a ranged set worth using. Because stealth OP” your words not mine, I have said it would need a rework for a sniper spec which it would, I have never said they won’t get a ranged set because of stealth.
3) If your not trying to enforce your wishes then why do you keep bring up why a ranged spec would be better ? Once again, staff has been chosen, better luck on the next round of specialization.
What you want right now is irrelevant, they aren’t releasing another set of specializations right away so save what you want for when they announce a second round of specs. You see the difference is there is actually nothing wrong with giving an opinion on what you believe would be a good or enjoyable spec, it’s the fact that you keep comparing it to what you’re getting. So in essence you are trying to convince everyone that Anet was wrong and it should have been a rifle.
How many other thieves do you think will want your rifle version vs. the oh so powerful sniper spec ? Personally I like your version, it’s well thought out and it’s not asking for the ridiculous, but I think you’re giving other players way to much credit, most are wanting god mode. So maybe start a thread about what you would like to see in the future, not post about how you hate staff and rifle would have been the better choice.
It’s all about the presentation.
There is a massive inconsistency with elite specializations .
Dragon Hunter and Reaper both fill a void desperately needed for the class. They change a lot of the classes core mechanics to help fill such void.
Chronomancer and Daredevil both reinforce the meta role the class was in while failing to address that classes void. Chronomancer is the worst elite so far, it changes nothing but adds things, and more unique support skills. Mesmer already had too much unique support skills and not enough raw damage. The last thing they needed was more unique support skills and still no damage. Thief, long considered the only required class for structured pvp, is getting an elite to only reinforce that meta. So far, it’s extremely overpowered of elite. Now granted it appears to suffer massively at the hand of condi’s, namely weakness and slow, also they’re still squishy.
Assuming people can play at the same skill level, a well played DD will hands down be able to 1v1 anyone period. Just do to the fact it’s overpowered as kitten. So much CC so much mobility so much evades so much damage. The single most OP elite on a class largely with terrible and semi useful Elites, guess which one every kitten one will take?
Disclaimer: Under no circumstance should you take this seriously.
…So maybe start a thread about what you would like to see in the future, not post about how you hate staff and rifle would have been the better choice.
It’s all about the presentation.
Unfortunately the issue with that is that the only place I could do it would be the Thief profession subforum. The profession subforums may as well be labeled “Profession-specific PvP talk”, and since I don’t PvP, if I set foot in there I’d get player-banned on the spot.
That said, we have a thread here, and it’s clearly about the Dodgedevil’s weapon choice. Why not repurpose it? I don’t particular feel a desire to continue beating my head against a wall, but it is lunchtime and it’s been a slow day at work. A good discussion certainly wouldn’t go amiss.
For me, I have the same issue with a traditional ‘Sniper’ that most PvP folks do – it’s hard to properly balance on a class that can switch to Shortbow or */D and disappear. Furthermore, it’s also kind of junk in PvE – sharply single-target focused damage with no cleave or AoE capabilities and a slow cadence just…doesn’t work. To wit: Warrior rifle.
That’s why I tend to focus on a quicker attack cadence, possibly at medium range rather than long range, with ‘set-up’ style abilities rather than on-demand spikes. One thing I’d considered was a rifle skill similar-ish to the way Fragility works in the Mesmer’s Domination line. Something like “Execution Shot: Fire a powerful shot at your target that deals more damage against foes with low health. This attack gains double the benefit against a target suffering from Vulnerability.”
I.e. gain 2% extra damage from each stack of Vuln, for that specific shot, instead of 1%. Or something. That could potentially produce something like the BOOMHEADSHOT numbers people want, but it would require them to stack up a lot of Vuln on their target first. In PvE, that means you can cost the skill more aggressively and let it fire more quickly, while in PvP that would give targets the chance to counterplay the BHS attack by avoiding being significantly Vulnerable.
That sort of setup-required mentality, applied to a quicker-firing medium-range carbine/SMG-flavored rifle skillset, could offer a Thief the sort of ranged viability we sorely lack in PvE while not giving the class the immediate 1200-range instagibs everyone’s terrified of in PvP. It clearly differentiates the Thief and the Warrior in terms of rifle use – the Warrior is a slower-paced marksman and semi-sniper, while the Thief is a burst-firing medium-range guy more interested in overwhelming targets with volume of fire. And really – a ranged attack chain would be a unique thing to try of itself.
I’m not going to build out an entire elite spec concept, but I do enjoy armchair game-deving, and hopefully if I get this stuff out there, people will see that you can, in fact, do Thief ranged combat in a fair, balanced, and Thief-flavored way.
On the extremely slight chance we’ll ever get a non-melee spec for the class, anyways.
Long range burst DPS + stealth would be overpowered. It’s probably why they went with staff instead.
Relentless Inquisition [PAIN] – FA
Sigh. Another ridiculous rifle rant. File it away with all the other dumb closed threads.
NSP’s resident crazy-eyed sylvari
Don’t put a C&D equivalent on the ranged weapon set. Build the ranged weapon around numerous small hits (AR/SMG-style rifle skills, rather than sniper cannon), rather than single larger strikes.
I would be unsatisfied with that. I think the Sniper should have some relatively rapid shots, but the core functionality should definitely be in the ponderous sniper role. An “SMG sniper” would be a waste of a spec.
2.) That anyone who attempts to correct this impression, offer possible ideas on how a ranged set could be balanced out or implemented in a fair way, or who wishes that we had not gotten a weak AoE tool as our elite specialization’s new weapon, is a child pitching a tantrum and thus should just shut up and accept the fact that the Thief will never have a ranged set worth using. “Because stealth OP.”
Really it’s a tone issue. Even if they have a solid enough point, the way some people express that point does leave people with the impression that they are “throwing a tantrum.”
I want a submachine gun kit for Thieves that hearkens back to tommygun-wielding gangsters or hood-wearing cybered-up Shadowrunners hammering back the po-po after a heist with an AVALANCHE OF LEAD. I want a 900-range rifle spec built on doling out a huge number of small individual hits.
Nah, no point to that. Use dual pistols.
Long range burst DPS + stealth would be overpowered. It’s probably why they went with staff instead.
This is why you have the sniper shots apply Revealed. Boom, problem solved.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
actually…Thief did need this, but only because back in June they decided to remove the dodge survivability of thief and give it back to us as a “here’s something new and shiny” for you
The daredevil is basically the old Acrobatics line that everyone used to take, which doesn’t happen anymore because the new Acrobatics line is kinda meh.
I personally can’t wait for this class and is prob going to be my main heading into HoT for sure.
I would be unsatisfied with that. I think the Sniper should have some relatively rapid shots, but the core functionality should definitely be in the ponderous sniper role. An “SMG sniper” would be a waste of a spec.
Nah, no point to that. Use dual pistols.
This is why you have the sniper shots apply Revealed. Boom, problem solved.
Two separate points, addressed as such.
First of all, dual pistols is almost literally unusable. Thief MH pistol has lower damage by far than every other ranged option in the game, bar-absolutely-bloody-none. The only way to get even remotely viable damage out of Vital Shot, which I would instantly vote for in a poll of Worst Autoattacks In All of Guild Wars History – and this is competing with the original game’s caster weapon autos, mind – is to gear for pure condition damage, which means you’ve just sacrificed any/all potential burliness from Unload.
So for P/P, either the autoattack, a.k.a. The Thing You Spend 90% of Your Time Doing, is complete and utter unrecoverable garbage, or your Unload, a.k.a. The Reason You Went P/P in The First Place, is complete and utter unrecoverable garbage. Either way, the weapon set is complete and utter unrecoverable garbage until and unless, they redesign MH Pistol pretty much from the ground up. Vital Shot is hopelessly awful, and Body Shot is overcosted drek that has no actual impact on a fight.
Unload is reasonable, but if you’re spending every single last point of initiative you can beg, borrow, or steal on Unload in order to try and mostly fail to keep up with the damage something like Sword/* does by autoattacking, then you’ve got nothing left to use the excellent but initiative-heavy support skills on the OH Pistol.
I would very seriously like to find the people who have continued to okay the design for MH Pistol on Thieves as it currently exists and just…scream at them for a good twenty minutes, because even the P/D builds use precisely two Pistol skills – Sneak Attack and Shadow Strike. Neither of which, you will note, are the MH Pistol skills everybody keeps saying are perfectly peachy-keen fine and a totally acceptable substitute for the Rifle kit we didn’t, and apparently will never, get.
As for the Sniper thing: I realistically doubt people would care if it applied Revealed after the fact. You can stealth before the fact and fire from complete secrecy, which may be all awesome and snipery but it’s also one of the main sticking points people have that makes them knee-jerk auto-reject any notion of Thieves ever having a ranged game.
If you want a single high-damage shot on a Thief rifle, you need to give it some sort of buildup or warning, something that can be avoided or counterplayed, or the PvP guys will eat your liver. More than they usually do, I mean. Besides, certain Thief builds treat Revealed as a sizable Power buff – do we want to be able to give that to them on demand, without a care in the world, at 1200 range?
You may not like the SMG-style kit, and that’s perfectly fair. But people despise ‘ponderous snipers’ in fast-paced FPS games where the snipers actually do come with serious, difficult to mitigate disadvantages. In this game, where a Thief can stealth up, strip half his target’s health in one invisible shot, then finish him off with a +200 to Power and 20% extra damage for the target being below half health? Yeah. I can assure you, you’re not getting that design past prototyping.
First of all, dual pistols is almost literally unusable. Thief MH pistol has lower damage by far than every other ranged option in the game, bar-absolutely-bloody-none. The only way to get even remotely viable damage out of Vital Shot, which I would instantly vote for in a poll of Worst Autoattacks In All of Guild Wars History – and this is competing with the original game’s caster weapon autos, mind – is to gear for pure condition damage, which means you’ve just sacrificed any/all potential burliness from Unload.
So for P/P, either the autoattack, a.k.a. The Thing You Spend 90% of Your Time Doing, is complete and utter unrecoverable garbage, or your Unload, a.k.a. The Reason You Went P/P in The First Place, is complete and utter unrecoverable garbage. Either way, the weapon set is complete and utter unrecoverable garbage until and unless, they redesign MH Pistol pretty much from the ground up. Vital Shot is hopelessly awful, and Body Shot is overcosted drek that has no actual impact on a fight.
Unload is reasonable, but if you’re spending every single last point of initiative you can beg, borrow, or steal on Unload in order to try and mostly fail to keep up with the damage something like Sword/* does by autoattacking, then you’ve got nothing left to use the excellent but initiative-heavy support skills on the OH Pistol.
I would very seriously like to find the people who have continued to okay the design for MH Pistol on Thieves as it currently exists and just…scream at them for a good twenty minutes, because even the P/D builds use precisely two Pistol skills – Sneak Attack and Shadow Strike. Neither of which, you will note, are the MH Pistol skills everybody keeps saying are perfectly peachy-keen fine and a totally acceptable substitute for the Rifle kit we didn’t, and apparently will never, get.
First I want to say: engineer pistol AA is weaker than thief pistol AA. ^^
Just saying because you said it would be the “worst” AA in game.
Second: Maybe pistol is meant as a hybrid weapon? There are many weapons like this in this game, which have skills that only benefit condi damage and others with direct damage. So yeah, thief pistol AA requires condition damage to be useful and unload requires direct damage, but if you use them in a hybrid build with stats like sinister, the damage wouldn’t be that terrible, I guess.
First of all, dual pistols is almost literally unusable. Thief MH pistol has lower damage by far than every other ranged option in the game, bar-absolutely-bloody-none.
I’m not saying that balance-wise it’s in a great place right now, but thematically it’s near identical to what you’re looking for. The solution is to push for them to fix pistols, not to scrap it and make a whole new weapon set that is nearly identical. It doesn’t even require a group up rebuilt, just some better numbers on the core attacks. They also need to bring back Ricochet, or something else that provides a similar level of multi-target options.
As for the Sniper thing: I realistically doubt people would care if it applied Revealed after the fact. You can stealth before the fact and fire from complete secrecy, which may be all awesome and snipery but it’s also one of the main sticking points people have that makes them knee-jerk auto-reject any notion of Thieves ever having a ranged game.
I think the stealth sniper option is a necessity. I also don’t see it as being that much worse than the existing backstab options. People don’t like being ambushed, but ambushing is a core feature of the Thief, and doing it from 1200 range is not that much worse than being able to do it up close, especially if the ranged option reduces your ability to flee, while the melee option offers tons of ways to flee afterwards. People might complain, but so long as it proves out to be balanced, their complaints will die down.
If you want a single high-damage shot on a Thief rifle, you need to give it some sort of buildup or warning, something that can be avoided or counterplayed, or the PvP guys will eat your liver. More than they usually do, I mean. Besides, certain Thief builds treat Revealed as a sizable Power buff – do we want to be able to give that to them on demand, without a care in the world, at 1200 range?
Perhaps not. Perhaps it would need to come with other mitigating factors. Maybe it could self-apply a little Slow even, so that it wouldn’t be efficient to use it that way. There are ways to balance things out. I’m not sure if they have this option, but perhaps they could even just say “Revealed applied by Sniper shots do not proc Revealed Training.”
You may not like the SMG-style kit, and that’s perfectly fair. But people despise ‘ponderous snipers’ in fast-paced FPS games where the snipers actually do come with serious, difficult to mitigate disadvantages.
Then Thieves should just never get rifles as a weapon type. There are other, better weapons they could get instead of an SMG.
Anyways, I’m dabbling with a Sniper build myself, here’s my basic theory for the set:
The #1 move, normally, would be a slow channel, but mobile shot. Decent damage for a slow and heavy hitting attack, but nothing game-changing. It would be ponderous though, so trying to spam #1 while on the move would be. . . unwieldy. The stealthed version would have a slightly lower charge time, and slightly higher damage, and could deal maybe 30-40% HP on a squishy player target. Both moves apply Revealed whether you’re stealthed or not.
The #2 ability would actually be your casual fire option, inverting the usual #1 and #2 roles a bit. It would be more akin to the Warrior #1 ability, only slightly harder hitting, at the cost of 2 Ini per shot.
The #3 ability would be a short range lunge-to-groundtarget, with a stealthing component, giving you a little mobility and only weapon-native source of stealth. Of course the stealth only works if you aren’t Revealed.
The #4 is your AoE, firing a quick round that explodes on contact dealing splash damage to nearby enemies.
The #5 is your other big shot, intended as a finisher, and in exchange for a high cost, it is effectively like using your stealthed #1, only with slightly lower base damage that ramps up based on remaining life.
So the rotation against a relatively unaware and squishy target would be that you would shoot with the stealthed #1, then shoot a few more times with the #2 or #4 shots to wear them down, then finish them with the #5 strike. All the heavy hitting shots would have 1.5-2.25 cast times, could perhaps even be longer but I think those are fair, and would apply Revealed. They could perhaps also apply some other debuff, like Slow, Weakness, or Cripple to give more opportunity to counter.
Another factor here would be the unique spec mechanic, which is that it replaces your Steal ability with a new one. Instead of teleporting to target, you stay where you are, and instead of taking a random bundle, you get an initiative pack, worth 2-3 ini when consumed. The rifle abilities would have higher than average costs attached, so the idea is that it would be an ini-starved spec if you don’t also keep your Steal use topped off. Removing the shadowstep from Steal further reduces the Sniper’s ability to dart around the battlefield. You’d be playing up the stealth and burst damage aspects of the class, while playing down the mobility aspects.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
@Kodama:
if the MH Pistol or P/P specs are supposed to be hybrid weapons, then ArenaNet needs to revise them anyways. Look at Warrior MH Sword as an example of functional hybrid weapons. You can run Sinister gear on MH Warrsword and actually get reasonable power damage from both the AA and from Final Thrust, while still having rather hefty Bleeds.
Thief MH Pistol? Even if you run straight-up Sinister, maximum Malice, the bleeds from Body Shot are ‘okay’ at best, and Unload is flabby and not great without crit/Ferocity investment. And frankly? I don’t feel that investing in Sinister gear and Bleed-enhancing runes (i.e. sacrificing a good two-thirds of your Power damage potential) should be a requirement for a weapon set that has one AND ONLY ONE source of damaging conditions. If they want to push ‘hybrid weapon!’ on P/P, then add something Malice-y to Unload.
Oh, and increase the attack speed significantly on Vital Shot and rebuild Body Shot into something actually worth spending initiative on.
Anyways.
@Ohoni: I’m not gonna lie, that sounds absolutely awful and I doubt I’d play it. Heh, of course, you’ve said the same about my SMG/tommygun spec notion, so we’re even! :P
That said: I see where you’re going, but it feels kind of like you’re doing the Reaper thing but without the Reaper’s payoff. The spec is supposed to be slow, hard to move in, and intentionally cripples your defenses, but it’s also a single-target spec with slow attacks. Unless those attacks hit like exploding volcanos, a Thief spec with 2+-second cast times on 1200-range single-target rifle skills that Reveal, Cripple, Weaken, and Slow the Thief is going to ensure that this Sniper spec is going to be extremely, extremely dead in a blazing hurry.
The Reaper can get away with being slow and immobile – to some extent – because it attacks entire counties with every swing, hitting everything in said counties for rampaging buttpiles of damage. Even then, my Reaper tests in the last BWE were…a struggle. I loved the spec to death, but its defenses were too weak to do the multi-target brawling they built it for – and that was with the Reaper’s GS skills being controlling, heavy-damage AoEs that didn’t compromise the character’s defenses.
There’s only so much extra protection 1200 range gives you. Heh…while I can certainly understand it when you tell me that what I want is a functional P/P set and not a Rifle redone into tommygun status, I hope you can understand when I tell you in turn that perhaps you should be working with the rest of us rifle-starved players in trying to get ArenaNet to make the Warrior’s rifle not also utter garbage. Because it sounds a good bit like what you’re looking for is that exact sort of deliberate, measured marksman style of play.
Which is cool, I desperately tried to make that work on my first GW2 character for a long time…but it’s not really Thiefy, eh?
There is more then just stealth that’s a problem with sniper specs, think about shadow step and all the other abilities available to thieves that allow then to escape.
Do people honestly think they should retain these skills ?
Stealth wouldn’t even really matter if you still could shadow step away, it’s hard enough to catch a melee thief that decides to abandon ship, if they start that process from 1200 range you would literally never catch them. Skills and abilities would need to be taken away from the thief for a sniper spec to work, which in turn would make every other thief spec useless.
The thing about classes is, it doesn’t matter what mode you play, it has to be balanced in all modes.
This was not directed at you Devil.
S’far as I knew, catching a Thief is supposed to be difficult. Was sort of one of the main selling points of the profession, really :p And honestly? There’s other ways to make someone’s life difficult. Would a sniper-spec Thief able to escape retaliation easily really be worse than catching up to a sniper-spec Warrior…who then presses his Rampage button and proceeds to use your face as a speedbag?
Now, I don’t PvP, so I can’t really understand the utter, soul-deep loathing every other profession feels for Thieves in PvP…but is that really any reason to deny the class the tools it needs to do well in the game in other modes?
I agree %100 it should be difficult but when they decided to make it difficult to catch them they didn’t have 1200 range. Aside from that I’m talking about the sniper spec people are mentioning, not rifle in general, though it might effect a non sniper rifle build as well.
I don’t hate thieves, but it’s not a case of hard to catch from 1200 range, it’s a case of impossible to catch. In PvP of course. The only class that could maybe catch a rifle thief that can Shadow Step, is another thief and even then the rifle thief has a 1200 head start. On top of that how many shadow steps are available ? 1 utility, 1 signet, #2 on sword, and steal if they have a target available. Melee thieves are forced to come back in to melee range if they want to kill you, maybe this is why their ranged weapons are sub par currently.
Its an unfortunate side effect for the PvE player, if it was only PvE I honestly wouldn’t care but sadly it’s not just PvE. It would be obnoxiously OP in PvP and WvW.
Unless those attacks hit like exploding volcanos, a Thief spec with 2+-second cast times on 1200-range single-target rifle skills that Reveal, Cripple, Weaken, and Slow the Thief is going to ensure that this Sniper spec is going to be extremely, extremely dead in a blazing hurry.
Again, the intent is to balance it out. You keep saying things to the effect of “well if it doesn’t work, then it won’t work,” which is just a tautology. The intent is to make the impact of a successful Sniper combo strong enough to be desirable, and then to apply weaknesses to it that are enough to balance that out, and no more, so that people use those skills carefully and successfully, without them becoming face-roll moves. It’s designed so that the Sniepr has an advantage when he picks his target and gets the drop on them at full range, and at a significant disadvantage if ambushed in close.
The intent is that if you can pull off a stealth→ #1 → #2/4 a couple times → #5 combo, then you’ll be able to finish off most enemies. If you get stopped before that, you’ll have a harder time of it. It’s a good concept for 1v1 when you have the element of surprise, it’s a solid option for 2+v2+ if your team can help distract them away from you, or PvE where you can hang back as artillery. It’d be a bad choice in a 1v2 situation where you might be able to drop one but the other would crush you, or in 1v1s where you’re ambushed. As with most Thief specs, it is reliant on choosing your battles.
The Reaper can get away with being slow and immobile – to some extent – because it attacks entire counties with every swing, hitting everything in said counties for rampaging buttpiles of damage.
Yeah, but a Reaper can only hit things within arm’s reach. It’s easy to kite a Reaper. A Sniper could hit anything within 1200, or perhaps even 1500 range (with optional traiting). I actually think the two would make for a competitive match-up, since the Reaper would be more effective if it could close to melee range, while the sniper could hang back and kite until he got close. The Reaper would have the edge if he got the drop, the Sniper would have the edge if he did.
Heh…while I can certainly understand it when you tell me that what I want is a functional P/P set and not a Rifle redone into tommygun status, I hope you can understand when I tell you in turn that perhaps you should be working with the rest of us rifle-starved players in trying to get ArenaNet to make the Warrior’s rifle not also utter garbage. Because it sounds a good bit like what you’re looking for is that exact sort of deliberate, measured marksman style of play.
No way. The Warrior is the one who SHOULD have a “run and gun” skirmish rifle, not a slow and deliberate marksman. Yeah, maybe propose your SMG spec for them, it’d be a better fit.
There is more then just stealth that’s a problem with sniper specs, think about shadow step and all the other abilities available to thieves that allow then to escape.
Do people honestly think they should retain these skills ?
No, which is why my prospective spec does limit a lot of these. You can still use some of the utilities to shadowstep, but not nearly so flexibly.
Skills and abilities would need to be taken away from the thief for a sniper spec to work, which in turn would make every other thief spec useless.
Not necessarily though. Part of the “nerfing” would come from the spec, which would limit how the spec works with other weapons, but would do no harm to the Daredevil or vanilla specs (and I think certain specs could still benefit from the Sniper spec even with other weapons). Another part of it could come from weapon effects themselves, use the rifle, take the consequences for a bit after. I don’t think they’d need to actually break the core spec to make it work.
I agree %100 it should be difficult but when they decided to make it difficult to catch them they didn’t have 1200 range.
Realistically though, a Sniper would not be at 1200 range when he decides to bail (usually). That’s his max range, but he shouldn’t be able to instantly kill anyone at that range. His DPs should be based on the idea that he gets his alpha strike at 1500-1200 range, but that if he goes for the quick kill combo, then by the time he goes for the finish a standard opponent could close to near melee. If he tries to kite instead then the opponent would take only slightly longer to close, and the moving Sniper would be dealing less damage.
So in practical terms, if a Sniper ever felt like he had to get out of there, the opponent would be more likely at 600 or less, not at 1200+.
On top of that how many shadow steps are available ? 1 utility, 1 signet, #2 on sword, and steal if they have a target available.
- also requires a target. The Signet requires a target. Only the utility allows them to shadowstep into the open like that, or SB 5 (and they’d need spare initiative for that). Most of their shadowstep options basically require enemy players to be where they want to go, so it might help them get away from one enemy, but right into the arms of another.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
All I’m gonna say is:
That knock down from stealth needs at least a 20 sec ICD !
LOVE: Raids & Fractals.
HATE: Jumping puzzles.
DESPISE: TIME GATES, RNG & THE TRINITY !
HATE: Jumping puzzles.
DESPISE: TIME GATES, RNG & THE TRINITY !
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