Guild Wars 2

For those people who think HoT is not good enough, afraid to buy it, or think its not worth the money. The second expansion is already being made as we speak. This was mentioned in the last Community Showcase Live featuring Gaile Gray.

HoT was not a huge expansion in the idea of area like most are in other games. Things kinda got messed up here and there. Desert borderlands was kind of a flop when it came out. The grind was not liked at all due to the mastery system and Specializations. Yes Anet tried new things and they flopped, but that’s how you learn.

Then the spring update came out it did not fix everything, but did help a lot. All the raid wings were finished, and now includes a bit of training using golems. Anet has to think of three separate areas of play. First is SPvP which they want to have an Esport design in it that is their baby which is Ok. They have always put SPvP above everything in their games just get used to it. Second is WvW not quite SPvP but not quite PVE either its a combination of both. Last is PVE which this game has a lot of area to cover. PVE you actually have to level to 80 in the zones, because the game will not level you instantly like SPvP or WvW will .

So when they make an expansion it just isn’t about one part its about all three. Again mistakes can be made, bugs can pop up, and content can be disliked. That does not mean Anet isn’t trying to make the best game they can for us, because they are. They are trying to make a game that’s not like WoW or EQ2 in the standards of games. Anet is trying to be different but still familiar at the same time.

The HoT expansion was a set up for the future expansions, because unlike those other games the core game and expansions will still be relevant to the entire system, dailies see to that. Also unlike other games where you have a new expansion and every thing goes gray in the old areas you used to play in cause your just too strong for them. Only newer people play in those and grind to get to your level and leave those puny areas behind. Some do have mentoring systems in them though.

Guild wars 2 vanilla is kinda funny if you think about it. Vanilla in games means nothing was added to the game at all when it started if I understand it correctly. Almost immediately they added new content of course for free at the time. Southsun Cove. then Living world, then Living world season 2 with Dry Top, and Silverwastes. They also set up the new specialization design for HoT. Actually an expansion worth of content for free. Now how can that still be vanilla?

So should you buy HoT to stay relevant? Yes because of the gliding (ok ok the gliding is not what its all about, but it is fun) The thing is Hot is not going away and its the beginning of the future expansion design in the game. Which like Guildwars campaigns will link the game together and it will all be relevant. You can wait until the next expansion if you would like which will include HoT in it, but you will have to catch up anyway, cause they are not gonna just give you everything it has to be earned. It will save you some money though since Anet wants GW2 to include it all for one price as the game grows.

What’s the point of this?

The point is stop trying to get rid of HoT it is not goin anywhere and its part of the future of this game. The core game is also part of that future, and I am trying to explain why it will be relevant as the game progresses.

HoTophobia. I’m certainly not afraid of it per se. I bought it and would again for gliding and Ranger pets. That accomplished, a goal of my play is to never to find myself on a HoT map. I don’t notice it much except when the maps are included in the dailies. On those days I don’t complete the dailies.

HoT is simply a different game than vanilla GW2. You can argue its merits and it’s fine to like it. It is not the game I originally purchased and love to play. I do hope they reconsider the direction they have chosen for the game and at least throw a bone (HP’s?) to those who love playing GW2, but don’t like HoT.

Gwilym.4257:

HoTophobia. I’m certainly not afraid of it per se. I bought it and would again for gliding and Ranger pets. That accomplished, a goal of my play is to never to find myself on a HoT map. I don’t notice it much except when the maps are included in the dailies. On those days I don’t complete the dailies.

HoT is simply a different game than vanilla GW2. You can argue its merits and it’s fine to like it. It is not the game I originally purchased and love to play. I do hope they reconsider the direction they have chosen for the game and at least throw a bone (HP’s?) to those who love playing GW2, but don’t like HoT.

I don’t believe that they are all that different. HoT is a lot like the Silverwastes, which was the busiest map before HoT. Both are level 80 maps with structured metas and lots of rewards.

Didn’t Paris Hilton often say, “That’s HoT!”?

I’m not trying to get rid of HoT, i understand it’s a stepping stone to help them be able to make better expansions in the future. Which they have made things better overtime. It’s just it takes them too long to figure things out. The problem with HoT is that it’s more of a $10 expansion pack then a 50—100 expansion. And the fact they keep changing the direction of the game isnt helping. We’ve gone through how many drafts of fractals? They changed the build trait/spec things at least once or twice b4 HoT’s final version. Which will probly change again when they do another expansion. Going with this buy the latest Copy of the game and get rest free, is just gonna make me wait til the very last expansion comes out to get all the rest for 1 low low price instead of paying $50 each time. Since as players we can run the content much faster then they can create. I’m positive that with the HoT experience they will do a better job in the future (i hope lol)

I’m kind of like Gwilym, I don’t like HoT map’s just the same as i did not like silverwastes or dry top. I can’t stand this structured meta map garbage so i rarely do them or only do them when i need to. Which is part of the direction that has changed since launch.

Yea, I’m in the same boat as Gwilym and Odin, as I don’t care for HoT maps, or the grind for masteries. I way more enjoyed the base game and was brought in from a friend of mine due to the casual nature of the game. I bought four copies of HoT for me and other friends, not thinking it would be so radically different, and as much as I hate to say it. I will probably wait a year into the next expansion before I buy it.

Not afraid of HoT

Chyanne Waters.8719:

The point is stop trying to get rid of HoT it is not goin anywhere and its part of the future of this game. The core game is also part of that future, and I am trying to explain why it will be relevant as the game progresses.

I doubt anyone expects ANet to kitten-can HoT. Some posters hope to get ANet to make changes to some game-play elements, whether those be related to difficulty,
perceived grind, etc.. Others hope to convince ANet that making another XPac which is exactly like HoT in terms of difficulty, grind, amount of content, platforming, etc. is not a good idea.

The issue of paying for revised game systems is an interesting one. The hope, from the point of view of the consumer, would be that the game systems would be incorporated in the design of the original game. Paying ANet to revise those systems and provide some content, rather than paying the same amount for less or no revisions and more content — while it may be necessary from ANet’s point of view --, is going to be a bitter pill for some consumers. Come to think of it, that’s another thing that some posters have been trying to communicate — that it’s time to live with the existing systems and get back to providing entertainment.

I still haven’t bought it, and probably never will unless the price gets lowered to 10 dollars or I find a deal where I only have to pay 10 dollars.

Sorry, but I read the contents of the HoT expansion pack, and I really do not think it’s worth more than 10 dollars. Regardless of it being a “set-up” for future expansion packs, it just contains so little content that I can’t bring myself to pay so much for so little. If I buy a car, I expect a fully functioning piece of machinery…. not just the frame of a car and the promise that the rest of it is going to be delivered piece by piece in the future. It may sound stupid, but that’s just my opinion.

I’m not afraid of HoT, I’m afraid of the grind it brought with it… (still unlocking my character elites to over 20 characters through WvW)

Maybe if I still wasn’t trying to grind out class mechanics I could probably enjoy HoT a lot more outside of building guild decorations.

Hi all,

I am not afraid of HOT, but I have not and will not purchase it for any price. It was poorly designed from the start and what was advertized was not completely delivered. Remember the outrage in the GW2 community over the way Arenanet handled the release of HOT. I will not reward with my hard earned money poor work and missing promises. To do so, only invites further poor work and empty promises. A friend of mine purchased HOT about three months after its release, and since purchasing it, he has stopped playing GW2 completely. Why, because he feels he was mislead by Arenanet regarding HOT’s promises. And now, as I understand it, Arenanet plans to tie all future expansions to HOT. That to me shows that HOT can’t stand on its own, but must be tied to further expansions in order to get others to purchase it. I continue to enjoy the core game, with its PVE, WvW and Silverwastes, but HOT will not be a part of my game play no matter how many future expansion are tied to it. As I said, I will not reward poor design and failed promises. Thanks for reading, and remember, my opinion is just as valid as the opinion of others.

To those people who believe HoT isn’t worth more than ten dollars, or calling it a light DLC, they’re absolutely fooling themselves. Hell most games sell an extra character profession for $10 and HoT comes with one, plus elites specializations for every profession.

People who raid would certainly think it was worth more than $10 to raid and get a new profession and new specialization and that’s before you look at the four new zones.

I’ve shown a lot of people, not a few, but quite a few, who didn’t like HoT how to get around and function in those zones, even before the zones we redone.

Now, it’s better than it was. And a lot of people who hate it, never gave it that second chance. They made up their mind, and that’s it. They’re done. And it’s their loss.

But this absolutely malarky about it being only worth $10 is silly. In MMO space HoT may not have been worth $50 (which is good because DLGamer regularly has it for sale for less than $40), but it’s certainly worth more than $30.

And that’s before we talk about story (short or otherwise), guild halls (which some people do like) and other changes to the major systems, including gliding and quick loot.

On that note, I’ve read a lot about story. People think the HoT story was contained only in instances, but it really wasn’t. The meta events of each zone are part of the story as well, and juding the HOT story solely in instances, means you’re only getting part of the story.

Chyanne Waters.8719:

Second is WvW not quite SPvP but not quite PVE either its a combination of both.

Question, have you played much WvW?

If not then perhaps you shouldn’t make comments like this.

WvW is NOT PvE, that is what the devs had problems with. They thought that as it is a large scale sandboxed PvP game it was closer to PvE than PvP. It is also the reason why it nearly failed when they brought out the new Desert Borderland map.

WvW is PvP, on a large scale. Huge numbers of real people fighting each other. Anything that might look like PvE stuff is simply there to slow it down a little for defence. Finally Anet has accepted the light, let’s not encourage them to go back.

And some PvP maps have PvE elements too. Does that make PvP the same as PvE? Of course not.

Oh, and I’m not ‘afraid of HoT’. I am concerned that the skill and trait changes made during HoT unbalances the game in Pre HoT PvE maps and in WvW against FTP people.

Personally, I enjoy HoT’s content. The problem is that there isn’t much of it. It really needs a large season 3.

Vayne.8563:

To those people who believe HoT isn’t worth more than ten dollars, or calling it a light DLC, they’re absolutely fooling themselves. Hell most games sell an extra character profession for $10 and HoT comes with one, plus elites specializations for every profession.

People who raid would certainly think it was worth more than $10 to raid and get a new profession and new specialization and that’s before you look at the four new zones.

I’ve shown a lot of people, not a few, but quite a few, who didn’t like HoT how to get around and function in those zones, even before the zones we redone.

Now, it’s better than it was. And a lot of people who hate it, never gave it that second chance. They made up their mind, and that’s it. They’re done. And it’s their loss.

But this absolutely malarky about it being only worth $10 is silly. In MMO space HoT may not have been worth $50 (which is good because DLGamer regularly has it for sale for less than $40), but it’s certainly worth more than $30.

And that’s before we talk about story (short or otherwise), guild halls (which some people do like) and other changes to the major systems, including gliding and quick loot.

On that note, I’ve read a lot about story. People think the HoT story was contained only in instances, but it really wasn’t. The meta events of each zone are part of the story as well, and juding the HOT story solely in instances, means you’re only getting part of the story.

What an entertainment product is worth to a consumer is ALWAYS subjective. HoT is not worth more than $10 to some people, it is worth more than the asking price to others, and for some the price is just right.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

To those people who believe HoT isn’t worth more than ten dollars, or calling it a light DLC, they’re absolutely fooling themselves. Hell most games sell an extra character profession for $10 and HoT comes with one, plus elites specializations for every profession.

People who raid would certainly think it was worth more than $10 to raid and get a new profession and new specialization and that’s before you look at the four new zones.

I’ve shown a lot of people, not a few, but quite a few, who didn’t like HoT how to get around and function in those zones, even before the zones we redone.

Now, it’s better than it was. And a lot of people who hate it, never gave it that second chance. They made up their mind, and that’s it. They’re done. And it’s their loss.

But this absolutely malarky about it being only worth $10 is silly. In MMO space HoT may not have been worth $50 (which is good because DLGamer regularly has it for sale for less than $40), but it’s certainly worth more than $30.

And that’s before we talk about story (short or otherwise), guild halls (which some people do like) and other changes to the major systems, including gliding and quick loot.

On that note, I’ve read a lot about story. People think the HoT story was contained only in instances, but it really wasn’t. The meta events of each zone are part of the story as well, and juding the HOT story solely in instances, means you’re only getting part of the story.

What an entertainment product is worth to a consumer is ALWAYS subjective. HoT is not worth more than $10 to some people, it is worth more than the asking price to others, and for some the price is just right.

I’m sorry but it’s not always subjective and saying so doesn’t make it so. It may not be worth $10 to you, but a certain amount of content can be said to have a certain value.

The people who say it’s not worth $10 are sighting things like the story being short, or there are only four zones, or it’s too hard for them to play. That has nothing to do with the objective value of the price being charged.

Saying HoT is not worth ten dollars to me, is very different from saying its’ a $10 DLC which a lot of people have said.

Whether a person personally likes it or not, it’s not a $10 DLC. That is to say the type and amount of content is not found in a $10 DLC in any MMO I’ve ever played.

Edit: I might add one of the people in this thread saying it’s not worth $10 doesn’t own it and hasn’t played it. He can only conjecture what it is and isn’t worth, because there are several people on these forums who have posted that they delayed buying HoT for for a long time due to reviews on these forums only to find out it was a lot of fun.

I’m not sure people who haven’t played something are so qualified to say what it is and isn’t objectively worth.

Note, I’m talking about the difference between the amount of content for the money vs the appeal of the content, because they’re two different discussions.

Vayne.8563:

I’m sorry but it’s not always subjective and saying so doesn’t make it so. It may not be worth $10 to you, but a certain amount of content can be said to have a certain value.

Actually it is, in fact, always subjective. If it were not subjective then it would be objective, meaning that it would not be possible to honestly say, “it isn’t worth it to me.” Remember, “entertainment product.” If it isn’t entertaining to someone what do you think its worth is to that someone?

Of course a certain amount of content can be said to have a certain value…to you. And it will have a different value to someone else. And a still different value to yet another person. Just personal income alone affects this. I consider a hundred dollars spent on a game that I end up not liking to be inconsequential while someone else, perhaps on a tight budget, might consider no game to be worth more than ten dollars because more than ten dollars spent on a game means not making rent, or buying food, or whatever.

Completely subjective.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

I’m sorry but it’s not always subjective and saying so doesn’t make it so. It may not be worth $10 to you, but a certain amount of content can be said to have a certain value.

Actually it is, in fact, always subjective. If it were not subjective then it would be objective, meaning that it would not be possible to honestly say, “it isn’t worth it to me.” Remember, “entertainment product.” If it isn’t entertaining to someone what do you think its worth is to that someone?

Of course a certain amount of content can be said to have a certain value…to you. And it will have a different value to someone else. And a still different value to yet another person. Just personal income alone affects this. I consider a hundred dollars spent on a game that I end up not liking to be inconsequential while someone else, perhaps on a tight budget, might consider no game to be worth more than ten dollars because more than ten dollars spent on a game means not making rent, or buying food, or whatever.

Completely subjective.

Way to miss the point.

People are saying the amount of content is comparable to a $10 DLC and that’s demonstrably wrong, no matter WHAT it’s worth to them personally.

They’re saying only four zones and 1 profession and the specialzations and the story is a $10 DLC, and that’s wrong. Factually wrong.

It may not be worth ten dollars to them, but I’m guessing it’s more in line with a $30 DLC would be my guess.

People are using hyperbole to attack a product that’s demonstrably wrong. If you don’t believe so, that’s your perogative, but I disagree with your assertion.

You can get an idea of what something is worth by the amount of content in a more objective sense. Subjectively, whether it’s worth it to you is still not what I’m talking about.

Product value has both objective and subjective components. There is an objective value factor related to the contents of a product. That is, “How does it compare to its competition?” Then, there’s the subjective value, as in, “How much of what’s offered actually appeals to a given consumer?” Thus, you can have cases where a product might not offer as much quantity as a competing product, but a given consumer values what it does offer much higher than the competing products greater amount. You can also have a case where a product blows its competition out of the water for quantity or even quality (e.g., better graphics) but a different consumer values what it offers not at all.

So, one can comparison shop, and one can look at whether the product appeals. Different consumers will approach the issue from different viewpoints. HoT, for instance, has taken knocks on both quantity (an objective measurement if in comparison to other offerings) and in whether it offers what a given poster wants.

The thing is, most posters aren’t going to think about the objective versus the subjective value. They’re going to look at whether the product has value for them, and then justify their position based on more objective comparison points. Thus, you see comparisons like, "ESO offers its DLC for $20-$30 dollars per (fact) and it has more content than all of HoT (personal valuation). There’s also a possibility of mixed objective/subjective comparison, like, "Each ESO DLC offers one zone, 2-3 dungeons, X quests and X amount of new PvP stuff (facts), whereas HoT offers 4 zones that have almost nothing to do besides the meta, a few exploration objectives and some events (opinion).

You’re not going to find a truly objective evaluation of one game XPac versus another from an internet reviewer, never mind from a random fan on a forum. So, I believe that both Vayne and Ashen make valid points, and thus both are correct, to a point.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

I’m sorry but it’s not always subjective and saying so doesn’t make it so. It may not be worth $10 to you, but a certain amount of content can be said to have a certain value.

Actually it is, in fact, always subjective. If it were not subjective then it would be objective, meaning that it would not be possible to honestly say, “it isn’t worth it to me.” Remember, “entertainment product.” If it isn’t entertaining to someone what do you think its worth is to that someone?

Of course a certain amount of content can be said to have a certain value…to you. And it will have a different value to someone else. And a still different value to yet another person. Just personal income alone affects this. I consider a hundred dollars spent on a game that I end up not liking to be inconsequential while someone else, perhaps on a tight budget, might consider no game to be worth more than ten dollars because more than ten dollars spent on a game means not making rent, or buying food, or whatever.

Completely subjective.

Way to miss the point.

People are saying the amount of content is comparable to a $10 DLC and that’s demonstrably wrong, no matter WHAT it’s worth to them personally.

They’re saying only four zones and 1 profession and the specialzations and the story is a $10 DLC, and that’s wrong. Factually wrong.

It may not be worth ten dollars to them, but I’m guessing it’s more in line with a $30 DLC would be my guess.

People are using hyperbole to attack a product that’s demonstrably wrong. If you don’t believe so, that’s your perogative, but I disagree with your assertion.

You can get an idea of what something is worth by the amount of content in a more objective sense. Subjectively, whether it’s worth it to you is still not what I’m talking about.

You said this.

Vayne.8563:

To those people who believe HoT isn’t worth more than ten dollars

Worth, not just how much content it includes. I responded specifically to your claims about the expansion’s worth. In fact you specifically indicated a separation between dollar value worth and comparison to DLC. You described them as two separate things.

No such thing as objective worth for an entertainment product.

Please feel free to demonstrate, as you put it, that HoT is worth as much, or more, than any given DLC to the people who say that it isn’t worth that much to them.

You cannot determine objective worth of an entertainment product by its size. The movie Battlefield Earth is two hours long…does that make it objectively a more worthy movie than one that is five minutes shorter?

Vayne.8563:

People are using hyperbole to attack a product that’s demonstrably wrong. If you don’t believe so, that’s your perogative, but I disagree with your assertion.

I made no such assertion.

IndigoSundown.5419:

There is an objective value factor related to the contents of a product.

That value is still subjective because it only has value based on the desirability of the product to a consumer with the ability to pay for it.

The John Carter of Mars movie was lengthy, it had a lot of content. Every bit as much as any other movie of comparable length…and yet it lost money where others were profitable.

Ashen.2907:

IndigoSundown.5419:

There is an objective value factor related to the contents of a product.

That value is still subjective because it only has value based on the desirability of the product to a consumer with the ability to pay for it.

The John Carter of Mars movie was lengthy, it had a lot of content. Every bit as much as any other movie of comparable length…and yet it lost money where others were profitable.

We are talking about two different things. What you’re talking about isn’t what I’m talking about.

When you review a product, say a car, you know the car, whether you like it or not, isn’t worth $5. You know that objectively.

If you look at the rhetoric of some people, particularly those calling it a $10 DLC, it’s simply wrong. It’s like saying a car is worth less because they don’t like it.

It’s about how the complaints are phrased. We’ve seen enough complaints using phrases like only four maps, or not enough content to justify my comments. Your opinion about it being subjective is just your opinion.

There is also an objective component to it, in my opinion. And nothing you can say is going to change my opinion, so we might as well agree to disagree.

Ashen.2907:

IndigoSundown.5419:

There is an objective value factor related to the contents of a product.

That value is still subjective because it only has value based on the desirability of the product to a consumer with the ability to pay for it.

The John Carter of Mars movie was lengthy, it had a lot of content. Every bit as much as any other movie of comparable length…and yet it lost money where others were profitable.

When individual consumers are evaluating a product and deciding whether to purchase or not, their subjective opinion is indeed what matters. It was not the length of the John Carter movie which sank it, it was the perceived lack of quality. That’s not to say that posters don’t attempt to attach objective justifications to their subjective valuations. They do. So do critics. If a critic pans a movie because of objectively verifiable holes in the plot (i.e., any reasonable individual would see the same lack of connections), those critics are expressing a subjective opinion based on objective evaluation.

With games, it’s also possible to count the number of features, zones, professions, skills, sets of armor, etc. offered by a gaming product. It’s possible to compare them and to say that — independent of what any given possible customer likes — one offers more than the other for the same price. Since no one can make that subjective evaluation for someone else, then, whatever objective facts can be gleaned provide the only possible options for argument.

Why does objective comparison matter? Because it allows a consumer to see how different companies’ offerings compare. People do this all the time. A beer drinker may buy Bud Light rather than Guinness even if they think Guinness tastes better, because they can get 30 BL for the same price as 12 Guinness and their budget won’t allow the extravagance. Sure, they are now expressing a preference, but it is a preference based on an objective criteria (amount of drinking per dollar).

Sure, subjective value matters most, but don’t discount objective considerations. They matter, at least to some people, too.

As a graphic artist myself, I believe I know firsthand the pains of having to sell an emotion. Can you imagine having that masterpiece you worked on for months being crushed in 3 seconds by a customer who skimmed over your work and felt ‘it just wasn’t good enough’?

Nonetheless, I think for an MMORPG, HoT should have been priced based on the ‘number of hours of gameplay relevant to the core storyline’.

I love the game a lot, and GW2 definitely has a team of top-notch graphic artists, musicians and level designers, but I feel that for HoT, ANet veered away from an RPG’s basic focus – telling a story – and placed too much emphasis instead on visual fluffery.

But as some of you have already pointed out, ANet is learning (ever noticed the increased frequency of Gaile and other Devs’ replies after people said they should have improve on their PR?) and I’m pretty confident that ANet is trying their best to refine their work continuously.

There’s still hope, people!

(Edit: Just wondered if we should also include the Living World stories under ‘number of hours’?)

Heraldusluminare.2946:

As a graphic artist myself, I believe I know firsthand the pains of having to sell an emotion. Can you imagine having that masterpiece you worked on for months being crushed in 3 seconds by a customer who skimmed over your work and felt ‘it just wasn’t good enough’?

Nonetheless, I think for an MMORPG, HoT should have been priced based on the ‘number of hours of gameplay relevant to the core storyline’.

I love the game a lot, and GW2 definitely has a team of top-notch graphic artists, musicians and level designers, but I feel that for HoT, ANet veered away from an RPG’s basic focus – telling a story – and placed too much emphasis instead on visual fluffery.

But as some of you have already pointed out, ANet is learning (ever noticed the increased frequency of Gaile and other Devs’ replies after people said they should have improve on their PR?) and I’m pretty confident that ANet is trying their best to refine their work continuously.

There’s still hope, people!

(Edit: Just wondered if we should also include the Living World stories under ‘number of hours’?)

Actually I disagree with this. As a program, the game is valued perhaps at how many hours you play it, but we set completely different rules in this department for MMOs that we do for most other games. Many people bought Tombraider for $60 and got less than 20 hours out of it. For an MMO that was be tragic, but it’s roughly average for most games today, and certainly most non-competitive games.

At the end of the day, a businesses charges based on how much something costs to produce. If I made a car and it costs me $30,000 to make it, I couldn’t very well sell it for $25,000 and expect to stay in business.

HoT was a complete rework of many of the systems and it took many man hours of labor to create. As such, a company could justify selling it for more than you might expect just based on content alone.

This is even more true in the case of HoT since we were told before hand that would be the case. That HoT would be lighter on content, but that many of the systems of the game had been redeveloped to allow the game to move forward.

With that knowledge, each person could then decide if HoT is worth it to them personally.

I don’t have problems with many of the original complaints, though I believe some of them were warranted.

HoT was definitely too grindy to start with for my taste, even though I didn’t grind personally. And HoT pushed people to spend too much time on the map which is something I also don’t like. Now you can come and go more or less as you please, with the exception of DS.

There are a lot of things that go into determining the price of the game. But different people will get different amounts of play hours out of it. I’ve already spent over a couple of hundred hours in HoT. It’s definitely possible to do this if you’re working on collections.

So I’m not really sure hours played is the best criteria to judge by, though it should probably be one of the criteria.

I had a lot of stuff I really wanted to write but don’t feel like getting into more debates on HoT. But this quote below I just can’t ignore.

“They are trying to make a game that’s not like WoW or EQ2 in the standards of games. Anet is trying to be different but still familiar at the same time.”

With the addition of raids and more heal specs. Along with more tanky builds for raiding. Seems to me making PVE end game raid based with trinity is exactly like trying to make their game like WoW or derivative wow clones. Not sure I’d rank EQ2 up there as a standard. “Vanilla” GW2 was more in line with that quote than HoT.

To answer the title question, no. I’m annoyed by HoT.

At least the legion of checkboxes (Heart of Tracking) has me going through the content at a comfortable pace (while watching lots of videos of “how you can’t get there from here” and “lol aren’t we designers so clever?”).

I’m settling into HoT, but it’s not “??? ??? ??” for me. Rather, I feel like I’m settling. I respect the good design decisions, but there are so many bad design decisions that I abhor that most of the time I find myself trying to avoid being irritated instead of enjoying the scenery and events.

@Vanye: A fair point. I just wonder if we can really create a pure objective checklist of things that ANet can go through before they decide to roll out a new release. :/

Well to avoid getting HoT people who think its not worth it, think its a bad design, or believe Anet did not come across on what they promised. Then never ever get a Guild wars 2 expansion, because if you do you will get HoT with it

Promises I have never seen Anet say I promise this is going to be this or that. I have seen them say they want to do this or that with the game and they do try to implement things as close as they can.

Price is another thing. I bought the $100 version but did I pay $100 for the game?
Not really, because I got an extra character slot so that is $10 bringing it down to $90. Next I got 4000 Gems worth $50 so that brings it down to $40. I had already been playing GW2 and was rewarded with another character slot another $10 which brings it down to $30. Now that was my account and I got the extra slot for being a veteran of the game. So if you pay the $100 and get the gems that you would probably buy in one way or another you only pay a total of $40 for HoT. You also get a lot of cool stuff with it.

Heraldusluminare.2946:

@Vanye: A fair point. I just wonder if we can really create a pure objective checklist of things that ANet can go through before they decide to roll out a new release. :/

Not really the way a creative project works though. I’ve been part of creative projects on the writing side and I know for a fact that there are things you just can’t predict. You can go to market with a certain formula that’s worked before and it doesn’t work because of intangibles. In fact, very often if you bring up a great idea to a group of creative people it’ll get shot down immediately and if you bring up an idea you’re tentative on and you’re not sure will work, it’ll be embraced and applauded.

Some of the stuff that’s worked for me in the past required the least amount of work, essentially throwaway work that I didn’t think twice about when I produced. Where as the stuff I worked hardest on didn’t always or even often get traction.

There’s no checklist for producing a game.

The other issue is testers. People who test games tend to be people most into games. That’s just logical. They’re the people who can see flaws.

In a game like HoT, those people didn’t see it was too hard for a percentage of the population because it wasn’t too hard for them. They probably have a good idea of their professions. They don’t test everything in zerker gear spamming one.

HoT’s real issue had more to do with the price being too high for what was offered, combined with bad publicity around stuff like the character slot, and small guilds and dungeon nerfs.

If we’d gone into this as a happier community HoT would have been more popular and more accepted. I went in with a positive attitude, and enjoyed it.

There are people who went in already expecting more, because they were unhappy to begin with. They were looking for reasons to be angry. It doesn’t take much to set off the disenfranchised. But there were so many disparate groups that were disenfranchised. HoT just has a really bad launch.

There are at least a couple of people on these forums who didn’t like HOT at all until I played it with them and now I see them in HoT all the time.

It’s not perfect, obviously but it’s not as bad as many make it out to be. And lot of people complaining, are complaining about the prepatch HoT as well. The April patch was very well received.

HoT would have been more accepted if it had started with an offering of a character slot and a lower price?? That was the real issue? lol

No, HoT got negative reviews because of the cynical nature of the expansion. Most of the HoT ingame requirements are overly expensive which required excessive farming to achieve. These requirements were seen as being cynically used to cover up the limited amount of playable content that HoT offered.

Even some of the things that are a positive for some are seen as a negative for others. Guild halls(cynical gold sink), Raids, Vertical maps and emphasis on platforming

I think the contents of HoT were what led to the negative response.

After all this time I bought HoT today. 29 Euro was okay for me.
Yeah, I smell the grind after two hours. Navigate in vertical maps is meh (Verdant Brink).

BUT: Gliding is soo coool. Gliding in Tyria is even more cool. My little Asura girls are so happy

anet – you earn a big point for HoT-Gliding.
Now we are waiting for the grind.

Dashingsteel.3410:

HoT would have been more accepted if it had started with an offering of a character slot and a lower price?? That was the real issue? lol

No, HoT got negative reviews because of the cynical nature of the expansion. Most of the HoT ingame requirements are overly expensive which required excessive farming to achieve. These requirements were seen as being cynically used to cover up the limited amount of playable content that HoT offered.

Even some of the things that are a positive for some are seen as a negative for others. Guild halls(cynical gold sink), Raids, Vertical maps and emphasis on platforming

I think the contents of HoT were what led to the negative response.

Yes that’s a big part of the real issue. A lot of people said it was fine, but it wasn’t worth the money for the amout of content. Once you start hearing that over and over again its’ going to affect sales. Why wouldn’kitten

The grind is in your mind. So many people finished those masteries in the first week it’s silly. It’s not something you had to do thursday. It’s not something you had to grind. People had it in their mind they had to grind.

Lyp Sao.1375:

After all this time I bought HoT today. 29 Euro was okay for me.
Yeah, I smell the grind after two hours. Navigate in vertical maps is meh (Verdant Brink).

BUT: Gliding is soo coool. Gliding in Tyria is even more cool. My little Asura girls are so happy

anet – you earn a big point for HoT-Gliding.
Now we are waiting for the grind.

Instead of actually grinding, just play the game naturally. If you follow the outpost chains in each outpost in HoT and just do them once, preferably with boosters, you’ll have almost all the masteries you need at the end of the day. Everything else will be optional.

It’s only bad because you haven’t really figured out how to do it. But lots of people have and many say it’s not as bad as the naysayers make it out to be.

Chyanne Waters.8719:

The point is stop trying to get rid of HoT it is not goin anywhere and its part of the future of this game. The core game is also part of that future, and I am trying to explain why it will be relevant as the game progresses.

Then you’ve made a pointless post, we all know it’s not going anywhere, or that it’s going to change anymore than it has.

When people say they don’t like HoT it’s for many different reasons, one person could have TD, another love it. Everyone is different. Telling people what to think/feel is a bit much wouldn’t you say?

I would re-phrase it, I don’t like HoT expansion!

I like to apologize for my very long post. In case you don’t like to read all of it, just go to the end and read what I like to see in game.

For starter, I bought the game on its first few days, and only played it for a week or so before I encountered an issue that ANet’s support couldn’t offer a solution other than full refund because they didn’t have the system required to correct the error implemented yet!

When they said they are having an expansion, I thought to myself that for sure the game is improved in past 3 years or so. It would be a win-win situation, I will get some fun hours and devs can get small support to encourage them do better. I bought HoT before release date. To my disappointment, the support is still as bad as the first days.
and some of the bugs that existed in first days are still there. If You guys haven’t contact ANet or WOW support before, I can include some messages from both of them to compare here.

I rarely go to HoT areas and even sometimes ignore the dailies that are falling there and instead do WvW although I hate to even be in WvW maps!

Here are is why HoT didn’t interest me:

What I like to see in game instead:

Vayne.8563:

Lyp Sao.1375:

After all this time I bought HoT today. 29 Euro was okay for me.
Yeah, I smell the grind after two hours. Navigate in vertical maps is meh (Verdant Brink).

BUT: Gliding is soo coool. Gliding in Tyria is even more cool. My little Asura girls are so happy

anet – you earn a big point for HoT-Gliding.
Now we are waiting for the grind.

Instead of actually grinding, just play the game naturally. If you follow the outpost chains in each outpost in HoT and just do them once, preferably with boosters, you’ll have almost all the masteries you need at the end of the day. Everything else will be optional.

It’s only bad because you haven’t really figured out how to do it. But lots of people have and many say it’s not as bad as the naysayers make it out to be.

So my first hours. At the moment I like it. Exploring the jungle with my Reve-Asura. This wonderful scenery and the music (!)

The story is … a little bit boring.
The fights are hard but okay.
and I am doing it solo (or sometimes join some fighting people I dont know)

I know it will be a long way. Much much XPs needed. For now I think it is worth a try.

You are right Vayne. DO NOT RUSH

The title of the thread is a bit hard to understand.
I bought HOT, but I dont play it much simply because its not fun.
For me games have got to be fun to play.
The base game is fun and I play there a lot.
The only times I go to HOT now are when some of the dailies have to be done there.

mauried.5608:

The title of the thread is a bit hard to understand.
I bought HOT, but I dont play it much simply because its not fun.
For me games have got to be fun to play.
The base game is fun and I play there a lot.
The only times I go to HOT now are when some of the dailies have to be done there.

Why is it hard to understand the title of the thread? We’ve seen numerous threads by players who believe HoT is too difficult and that it can’t be soloed. Which would indicate a lot of people won’t even try HoT or stick with it until they learn some of the ins and outs.

It’s a perfectly understandable title if you’ve been following some very long running forum threads.

I’ve met many people who felt at least intimidated by HOT and I showed them around and not they like it. But it first it was overwhelming for a whole lot of people.

The thread title is why are people afraid of HOT.
The thread is not why is HOT too difficult.
I play a game to be entertained.
The game has got to be fun to play.
Whether its difficult , easy , soloable etc is not relevant.
Its got to be entertaining.

mauried.5608:

The thread title is why are people afraid of HOT.
The thread is not why is HOT too difficult.
I play a game to be entertained.
The game has got to be fun to play.
Whether its difficult , easy , soloable etc is not relevant.
Its got to be entertaining.

Yep, I find hot to be the most entertaining zones in the entire game. Much more entertaining the most of core Tyria. I’m not the only person who shares this view.

But I’ve run into people who WERE intimidated (afraid) of HoT so the question isn’t hard to understand. They felt overwhelmed as I said. They were afraid to go in alone.

It’s a very simple question and no matter how you personally feel personally, there are people afraid of HoT.

The only thing that frightens me about HoT is the precedent it sets for future expansions of charging too much for too little.

I aint skeered of HoT but I kitten sure don’t like it. It’s a maze and gauntlet run that I find majorly frustrating and annoying. Trying to figure out how to get somewhere while being swarmed by overpowered mobs in constricted areas aint my idea of fun or challenging.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Let’s keep the discussion on topic, please.

It’s not a question of fear, but one of change in tone from the Core game. Heart of Thorns is more focused on group or zerg play where certain objectives must be made in order to progress.

That’s a radical change from the very solo-friendly, grind-free, feel the Core game provided.

It’s that simple.

It’s not that simple. It’s that simple for you. I know people that are scared of HoT.

I can see why people would be afraid of HoT. Core sets the expectation for game knowledge and mechanics WAY too low; I got people that don’t know how traits work … STILL ><

It’s definitely going to scare anyone that considers that expectation at their threshold of capability.

From a marketing/business POV, I see why Core and HoT are what they are, but from a game perspective, it is a bit of a tragedy that Core fails GW2 gamers in preparing them for content so badly; even pre-HoT content like dungeons and Fractals.

Good. I’m glad they are already working on the next expansion, because most of HoT was done wrong. I’ve logged into GW2 to knock some baddies around from time to time when I’m bored, but in it’s current half-kittened state it feels wrong and it’s boring!

No one thinks HoT will vanish and never be heard from again, but the expansion was a flop. Many choices they made for HoT will have to be un-made if they want to make the game fun to play again.

Right now ALL classes are broken because ALL classes’ “elite spec” are required. And the worst thing was that in cases like the warrior it was just unforgivably lazy ideation to blame. How can I get excited for a development team that basically says, “We were out of ideas, so warriors’ new utility is the same as warriors’ old utility BUT MORE.”

History really ended to GW2 with that one.

And if the next expansion is also “just like HoT but more so” I probably won’t buy or play that one either.

Vayne.8563:

It’s only bad because you haven’t really figured out how to do it. But lots of people have and many say it’s not as bad as the naysayers make it out to be.

This could be the new marketing slogan for HoT.

“It’s not as bad as the nay-sayers make it out to be!”

….that would be more convincing than a free trip to lvl 80 for that character I have to pay an extra $10 to create.