Guild Wars 2

Quote from the Economy article:

“As the game progressed, we shifted focus from dungeons to fractals and raids, and we firmly believe that fractals and raids are the content that we want to continue to support.”

This has implications that worry me. The new PvE content you intend to continue to support consists entirely of content that requires grinding for (at least some) Ascended gear to be able to complete? (And therefore not to get kicked from PuGs?)

Can we get some clarification of design intent here? You’ve talked a lot about the Raids (understandably, as they’re new and shiny) and a bit about the Fractal changes, but those are both gear-gated high-end challenges. Unless the map exploration is somehow a LOT more robust than we’ve been led to believe, it just doesn’t look like there’s any place for a casual or mid-tier player in HoT.

What is your vision of the future for PvE players who aren’t on the No-Life Elitist front, once we get through the story? Perpetual Verdant-Brink-style event grinding? Trying to beat the guild high score in adventures for the next two years? (Serious respect for the guys making them, they look neat, but I bet THAT won’t get old fast.) Or are we just left with a really expensive living world episode?

Well , when they nerf Core content….

You will not only have a very expensive Living world episode but also less content to go back to

If you’re bored from using the flamethrower on little vines… again and again and again and again and again and again to get bronze, and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again…..
in the periods between the raids when they have been mapped and their once a week cooldown is up.

I think it is extremely disingenuous to label Fractals as simply ‘gear-gated’. Not to mention that Raids actually have a much less stringent gate than Fractals.

Even on the current system, you can get pretty far with fractals in just ascended trinkets.

And it is not like crafting Ascended Armor is dark magic.

lorddarkflare.9186:

And it is not like crafting Ascended Armor is dark magic.

Of course it isn’t. Nobody says getting ascended is difficult (as in, requiring any level of skill). What it is is costly, time-consuming and grindy.

Astralporing.1957:

lorddarkflare.9186:

And it is not like crafting Ascended Armor is dark magic.

Of course it isn’t. Nobody says getting ascended is difficult (as in, requiring any level of skill). What it is is costly, time-consuming and grindy.

This.

Or really, either “time-consuming and grindy” or “purchased out of pocket for real money”.

munki.6402:

I have a lot of ascended: multiple weps on six characters. Full armor on three and pieces on two others. I am definitely a filthy casual, playing maybe an hour and a half a day, if that. Go figure.

Congratulations. You’ve got yours, so kitten everyone else, right?

I wonder how many total played hours that is over the time you’ve been playing.

lorddarkflare.9186:

I think it is extremely disingenuous to label Fractals as simply ‘gear-gated’. Not to mention that Raids actually have a much less stringent gate than Fractals.

Even on the current system, you can get pretty far with fractals in just ascended trinkets.

And it is not like crafting Ascended Armor is dark magic.

What would make it a more honest description in your opinion?

Are you disputing the claim that a certain grade of gear is a functional requirement to complete this content? That would be odd, given that you go on to say that one can “get pretty far” if you already have some of the gear behind which it is gated. So… you can get part-way through the gated content when you’ve partially overcome the gate.

If you’ve not been bothered to do high end pve for 2 years (probably haven’t done Fractal 50 with zero Ascended) then why the QQ? You don’t even like this content.

Cdoto.4920:

lorddarkflare.9186:

I think it is extremely disingenuous to label Fractals as simply ‘gear-gated’. Not to mention that Raids actually have a much less stringent gate than Fractals.

Even on the current system, you can get pretty far with fractals in just ascended trinkets.

And it is not like crafting Ascended Armor is dark magic.

What would make it a more honest description in your opinion?

Are you disputing the claim that a certain grade of gear is a functional requirement to complete this content? That would be odd, given that you go on to say that one can “get pretty far” if you already have some of the gear behind which it is gated. So… you can get part-way through the gated content when you’ve partially overcome the gate.

Ascended trickets are not difficult to get. In fact, most ascended trinkets are notoriously easy to get. You can get a full set with just normal play.

The actual hard gate only comes into play after you have placed agony infusions in all those slots.

My challenge stems from the implication that fractals are virtually unapproachable unless you are fully decked out in ascended. That is what calling it ‘gear-gated’ suggests and that is clearly not true.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Cdoto.4920:

lorddarkflare.9186:

I think it is extremely disingenuous to label Fractals as simply ‘gear-gated’. Not to mention that Raids actually have a much less stringent gate than Fractals.

Even on the current system, you can get pretty far with fractals in just ascended trinkets.

And it is not like crafting Ascended Armor is dark magic.

What would make it a more honest description in your opinion?

Are you disputing the claim that a certain grade of gear is a functional requirement to complete this content? That would be odd, given that you go on to say that one can “get pretty far” if you already have some of the gear behind which it is gated. So… you can get part-way through the gated content when you’ve partially overcome the gate.

Ascended trickets are not difficult to get. In fact, most ascended trinkets are notoriously easy to get. You can get a full set with just normal play.

The actual hard gate only comes into play after you have placed agony infusions in all those slots.

My challenge stems from the implication that fractals are virtually unapproachable unless you are fully decked out in ascended. That is what calling it ‘gear-gated’ suggests and that is clearly not true.

Ah, I see the disconnect.

What I said was “required to complete”, not “required to attempt”. Strictly speaking, you can walk into the raid in full exotics. It might even be possible to complete that way, given perfect play. Good luck finding a group willing to let you try, though… and that’s what I mean by a “practical requirement”.

There was certainly no attempt to deceive or misrepresent.

You technically you’re looking for a group with ascended armor players to carry you in exotics in raids? Firstly there will probably be many groups willing to let exotic players join regardless of their armor tier. Secondly if you can’t find a group you can always create one yourself and invite other players in. Thirdly you can also always do raids with friends and your guild. You assume a lot about the general community by saying ascended players probably won’t invite exotic players into their party. I’m full ascended but when raid launches I probably won’t care if you’re in exotic or ascended.

Also ascended has been out for so long now why is it only now that people start not picking over it, it should be a recognized tier that people want to get just like how rares are to exotics it’s what exotics are to ascended. Not to mention that ascended doesn’t even give as much of an increase in stats from upgrading from exotics.

Furthermore raids as Anet has said will be harder than fractals and I would assume fractal 50, so if you don’t have any ascended at all it means you haven’t attempted fractals at all. So why all of a sudden you wanna jump from no fractals to raids? I understand that maybe you don’t like fractals or that there is no incentive to you that you want from fractals, if that is the case you are very well able to attempt raids in exotics or full ascended if you got it without doing fractals. But here you are complaining how you are unhappy that other people get to use ascended in raids. Don’t you find it a little ridiculous? If people have ascended it means they took the time and effort to get them so they have the right to use it. If you don’t have it yourself you are free to run raids in exotics no one is stopping you.

Zach.2618:

If you don’t have it yourself you are free to run raids in exotics no one is stopping you.

That remains to be seen.

I tend agree with those who say that it seems unlikely that raids will actually have their difficulty tolerances so tight that the relatively minor difference between exotics with ascended trinkets and full ascended will make much of a difference.

But I am inclined to believe that the community will be much less forgiving than the content itself.

Then, still, you are forgetting those of us that can easily out-play someone in ascended gear with our exotics and thus nullify the whole elitist argument of gear-requirements. In the end… skill matters, not gear.

Just look at Falon… he ran around in tighty-whitey’s and a sword.

Pompeia.5483:

In the end… skill matters, not gear.

Player skill is a greater contributing factor to success in GW2 than gear. That does not mean that gear does not matter.

munki.6402:

I have a lot of ascended: multiple weps on six characters. Full armor on three and pieces on two others. I am definitely a filthy casual, playing maybe an hour and a half a day, if that. Go figure.

I play slightly less than an hour a day on average, and I even crafted a legendary and I never sold gem for gold. However, this is irrelevant, because people like you and me will never have the amount of free time required for raiding. I know this from my previous experience in raiding, when I had much, much more free time.

Ashen.2907:

Zach.2618:

If you don’t have it yourself you are free to run raids in exotics no one is stopping you.

<snip>

But I am inclined to believe that the community will be much less forgiving than the content itself.

This.

People in fractal runs kick (or ditch) quite readily as it is. Any setback could lose people, and lots of groups are not shy about booting anyone who seems to be slowing them down. I invite you to look for a mid-to-high fractal group when it’s not the daily as a ranger or necro. Bring a book. For extra points, and pull out a bear pet once you get in.

Perhaps you will be more open. If so, more power to you. If the devs are saying this is what you SHOULD have though (“what it’s balanced for”), people will take that as the minimum.

—==—

Also, to be clear, I am not saying that I should be allowed in your raid, or complaining about raiding at all really. Raids are for the elitists, that’s straight from the devs. If you want exclusive content, grats, you’ve got your little hill to be the king of. I’ll check it on youtube.

I’m asking if the design intent going forward is for everything PvE that gets ongoing dev time to require some amount of Ascended gear.

Raid being balance around ascended gear doesn’t not mean its incomplete-able in other gear. It is hard core content and more than anything gw2 isn’t about your gear.

I thought mmorpgs were about progression. To me gw2 stands out in that dept as it makes it possible to aquire ascended through daily tq, fractals, guild missions, chest drops from other content. Once u aquire the armor u can trade it around between characters and itll always be best in slot. U can even change stats in the forge. All of this is unlike any mmorpg out there, and yet people complain. Play at ur own phase, but this stuff doesnt happen over night, as with anyone else who currently have their set. Heck, u can even wear full exo 6part main armor while wesring the rest easily aquired ascended. In the end its all about your build and knowing your role and tactics. Being a game.dev must be hard sometimes

I would’ve loved having more stuff added to fractals if fractals retained their RNG like nature. Now, fractals are just mini dungeons, and adding fractals more fractals will change all the levels of those mini dungeons.

The “gear grind” for raids is overhyped. Once you’ve got ascended weapons and trinkets you’re nearly at full power.

ive made 2 pieces of ascended gear, the rest i lucked out on chests from lvl 10 fractals/wvw and changed the stats in’t forge.

i dont personally see the difficulty, but understand the frustrations.

Cdoto.4920:

Ashen.2907:

Zach.2618:

If you don’t have it yourself you are free to run raids in exotics no one is stopping you.

<snip>

But I am inclined to believe that the community will be much less forgiving than the content itself.

This.

People in fractal runs kick (or ditch) quite readily as it is. Any setback could lose people, and lots of groups are not shy about booting anyone who seems to be slowing them down. I invite you to look for a mid-to-high fractal group when it’s not the daily as a ranger or necro. Bring a book. For extra points, and pull out a bear pet once you get in.

Perhaps you will be more open. If so, more power to you. If the devs are saying this is what you SHOULD have though (“what it’s balanced for”), people will take that as the minimum.

—==—

Also, to be clear, I am not saying that I should be allowed in your raid, or complaining about raiding at all really. Raids are for the elitists, that’s straight from the devs. If you want exclusive content, grats, you’ve got your little hill to be the king of. I’ll check it on youtube.

I’m asking if the design intent going forward is for everything PvE that gets ongoing dev time to require some amount of Ascended gear.

As far as I know there hasn’t really been any conclusive word on that but my assumption is yes, with the 5% stat difference between exotic and ascended being increased to 10% it is likely that this is what they are building their new balance around. It won’t make playing in exotics any more impossible than playing in rares is in regular play now but it will make things a little harder and take a little longer.

In short we’re being gently but firmly pushed in the full ascended direction and considering the nature of competitive play and instanced group play they can also rely on the player base itself to help nudge the rest in that direction. We will likely also be seeing desirable items that are probably non-transferable (so as not to unbalance the economy) and raid exclusive to “sweeten the deal”.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

Raid being balance around ascended gear doesn’t not mean its incomplete-able in other gear. It is hard core content and more than anything gw2 isn’t about your gear.

Oh, it’s very much about the gear. Just not only about the gear. That isn’t that much relevant to the point OP made however.

The fact is, that dungeons, that (as far as the difficulty and ease of acces go) are aimed at the middle of the game population are being phased out in favour of Fractals (that definitely are about gear) and Raids (that by their very design are a niche content aimed at a tiny minority). It seems that Anet is trying to funnel that middle part of population into content that was never designed for them in the first place.

In the words of the famous Tyrian strategist, “that won’t end well”.

Harlequin.8593:

In short we’re being gently but firmly pushed in the full ascended direction

There’s nothing gentle about it at all. And if it won’t work well enough, expect for more not so subtle kicks to arrive later.

Yeah, get ascended now It’s not hard to do.

Cdoto.4920:

People in fractal runs kick (or ditch) quite readily as it is. Any setback could lose people, and lots of groups are not shy about booting anyone who seems to be slowing them down. I invite you to look for a mid-to-high fractal group when it’s not the daily as a ranger or necro. Bring a book. For extra points, and pull out a bear pet once you get in.

Perhaps you will be more open. If so, more power to you. If the devs are saying this is what you SHOULD have though (“what it’s balanced for”), people will take that as the minimum.

—==—

Also, to be clear, I am not saying that I should be allowed in your raid, or complaining about raiding at all really. Raids are for the elitists, that’s straight from the devs. If you want exclusive content, grats, you’ve got your little hill to be the king of. I’ll check it on youtube.

I’m asking if the design intent going forward is for everything PvE that gets ongoing dev time to require some amount of Ascended gear.

Why do you think Raids are designed for elitists? You use the term elitists here to mean negativity. That’s an attitude. Raids are actually designed for people who want to do more challenging contents. There is a difference.

Also, if the group said “Meta”, a player joining that group should respect the group request. Being a ranger or a necro is by definition not part of a meta composition. I’m not going to argue why or why not. Meta comp is listed in metabattle and other websites. You can go and ask them. But back to the point: Meta is listed to mean the group is trying for maximal efficiency as best as it could. Joining a meta group (regardless of the reason the group was listed as “meta”) with a ranger or necromancer goes against the group spirit or intent. Hence that player by definition does not fit in the group. No hard feeling.

If the ranger/necro goes and cry about it and actually believe he fits in that group, that player actually fits the definition of what an elitist actually is because he actually believes in the scenario where his inclusion would be better than the meta which itself is already the best by definition.

Cdoto.4920:

Ashen.2907:

Zach.2618:

If you don’t have it yourself you are free to run raids in exotics no one is stopping you.

<snip>

But I am inclined to believe that the community will be much less forgiving than the content itself.

This.

People in fractal runs kick (or ditch) quite readily as it is. Any setback could lose people, and lots of groups are not shy about booting anyone who seems to be slowing them down. I invite you to look for a mid-to-high fractal group when it’s not the daily as a ranger or necro. Bring a book. For extra points, and pull out a bear pet once you get in.

Perhaps you will be more open. If so, more power to you. If the devs are saying this is what you SHOULD have though (“what it’s balanced for”), people will take that as the minimum.

—==—

Also, to be clear, I am not saying that I should be allowed in your raid, or complaining about raiding at all really. Raids are for the elitists, that’s straight from the devs. If you want exclusive content, grats, you’ve got your little hill to be the king of. I’ll check it on youtube.

I’m asking if the design intent going forward is for everything PvE that gets ongoing dev time to require some amount of Ascended gear.

What is stopping you from making a group yourself that is more open? Make a listing called “Level 25 frac, all welcome” and you will get people easily.

The problem with all the people complaining about being kicked out of speed run/all zerk/meta groups is that in their ideal world, they want to sponge off 4 other people who are running meta builds. When I join a meta group, I bring a meta build. When I want to play a non-meta build, I either join a more casual lfg group or create one myself.

I have never been kicked from a fractal group running a necro, because I don’t join the meta groups when I want to do a fractal as a necro. I join the ones advertised as open for all.

Nate.3927:

Cdoto.4920:

Ashen.2907:

Zach.2618:

If you don’t have it yourself you are free to run raids in exotics no one is stopping you.

<snip>

But I am inclined to believe that the community will be much less forgiving than the content itself.

This.

People in fractal runs kick (or ditch) quite readily as it is. Any setback could lose people, and lots of groups are not shy about booting anyone who seems to be slowing them down. I invite you to look for a mid-to-high fractal group when it’s not the daily as a ranger or necro. Bring a book. For extra points, and pull out a bear pet once you get in.

Perhaps you will be more open. If so, more power to you. If the devs are saying this is what you SHOULD have though (“what it’s balanced for”), people will take that as the minimum.

—==—

Also, to be clear, I am not saying that I should be allowed in your raid, or complaining about raiding at all really. Raids are for the elitists, that’s straight from the devs. If you want exclusive content, grats, you’ve got your little hill to be the king of. I’ll check it on youtube.

I’m asking if the design intent going forward is for everything PvE that gets ongoing dev time to require some amount of Ascended gear.

What is stopping you from making a group yourself that is more open? Make a listing called “Level 25 frac, all welcome” and you will get people easily.

The problem with all the people complaining about being kicked out of speed run/all zerk/meta groups is that in their ideal world, they want to sponge off 4 other people who are running meta builds. When I join a meta group, I bring a meta build. When I want to play a non-meta build, I either join a more casual lfg group or create one myself.

I have never been kicked from a fractal group running a necro, because I don’t join the meta groups when I want to do a fractal as a necro. I join the ones advertised as open for all.

I can’t agree with this even more. There is nothing stopping you from doing the content if you want to.

Cdoto.4920:

Ashen.2907:

Zach.2618:

If you don’t have it yourself you are free to run raids in exotics no one is stopping you.

<snip>

But I am inclined to believe that the community will be much less forgiving than the content itself.

This.

People in fractal runs kick (or ditch) quite readily as it is. Any setback could lose people, and lots of groups are not shy about booting anyone who seems to be slowing them down. I invite you to look for a mid-to-high fractal group when it’s not the daily as a ranger or necro. Bring a book. For extra points, and pull out a bear pet once you get in.

Perhaps you will be more open. If so, more power to you. If the devs are saying this is what you SHOULD have though (“what it’s balanced for”), people will take that as the minimum.

—==—

Also, to be clear, I am not saying that I should be allowed in your raid, or complaining about raiding at all really. Raids are for the elitists, that’s straight from the devs. If you want exclusive content, grats, you’ve got your little hill to be the king of. I’ll check it on youtube.

I’m asking if the design intent going forward is for everything PvE that gets ongoing dev time to require some amount of Ascended gear.

What fractal groups do you run with? I’ve been running fractal 50 for awhile now with full pugs and i have nvr seen anyone in the group say anything about using a ranger with a bear or what not. There are many groups who lfg 50 swamp and those are the ones I join and I’ve nvr seen anyone being crude about what another guy was running. Most of the time the people I run with don’t even talk much, it’s like a silent trust thing where we know what we are doing and trust our other members to know to. If you join lfg that says something like ‘speedclear zerk/meta ele guard mes’ or something like that and purposely going in with what was not asked for than you deserved to get kicked. Personally I like to join more laid back group who don’t req anything, and most often than not we clear the dungeon with above average times when everyone knows what they’re doing. I seriously don’t know where you are taking your elitist examples from because I don’t experience it as often as you say when running fractal 40- 50.

Harlequin.8593:

Cdoto.4920:

Ashen.2907:

Zach.2618:

If you don’t have it yourself you are free to run raids in exotics no one is stopping you.

<snip>

But I am inclined to believe that the community will be much less forgiving than the content itself.

This.

People in fractal runs kick (or ditch) quite readily as it is. Any setback could lose people, and lots of groups are not shy about booting anyone who seems to be slowing them down. I invite you to look for a mid-to-high fractal group when it’s not the daily as a ranger or necro. Bring a book. For extra points, and pull out a bear pet once you get in.

Perhaps you will be more open. If so, more power to you. If the devs are saying this is what you SHOULD have though (“what it’s balanced for”), people will take that as the minimum.

—==—

Also, to be clear, I am not saying that I should be allowed in your raid, or complaining about raiding at all really. Raids are for the elitists, that’s straight from the devs. If you want exclusive content, grats, you’ve got your little hill to be the king of. I’ll check it on youtube.

I’m asking if the design intent going forward is for everything PvE that gets ongoing dev time to require some amount of Ascended gear.

As far as I know there hasn’t really been any conclusive word on that but my assumption is yes, with the 5% stat difference between exotic and ascended being increased to 10% it is likely that this is what they are building their new balance around. It won’t make playing in exotics any more impossible than playing in rares is in regular play now but it will make things a little harder and take a little longer.

In short we’re being gently but firmly pushed in the full ascended direction and considering the nature of competitive play and instanced group play they can also rely on the player base itself to help nudge the rest in that direction. We will likely also be seeing desirable items that are probably non-transferable (so as not to unbalance the economy) and raid exclusive to “sweeten the deal”.

I agree with you but many people often take this small % stat difference and make a big deal out of it. I mean most people I see don’t even take the 2 consumables to boost their stats when they play. Those 2 consumables boost your desired stat more than what ascended gives over exotics. If people don’t usually take consumables I don’t see why the big fuss over an even smaller stat difference which is ascended over exotics.

Cdoto.4920:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Cdoto.4920:

lorddarkflare.9186:

I think it is extremely disingenuous to label Fractals as simply ‘gear-gated’. Not to mention that Raids actually have a much less stringent gate than Fractals.

Even on the current system, you can get pretty far with fractals in just ascended trinkets.

And it is not like crafting Ascended Armor is dark magic.

What would make it a more honest description in your opinion?

Are you disputing the claim that a certain grade of gear is a functional requirement to complete this content? That would be odd, given that you go on to say that one can “get pretty far” if you already have some of the gear behind which it is gated. So… you can get part-way through the gated content when you’ve partially overcome the gate.

Ascended trickets are not difficult to get. In fact, most ascended trinkets are notoriously easy to get. You can get a full set with just normal play.

The actual hard gate only comes into play after you have placed agony infusions in all those slots.

My challenge stems from the implication that fractals are virtually unapproachable unless you are fully decked out in ascended. That is what calling it ‘gear-gated’ suggests and that is clearly not true.

Ah, I see the disconnect.

What I said was “required to complete”, not “required to attempt”. Strictly speaking, you can walk into the raid in full exotics. It might even be possible to complete that way, given perfect play. Good luck finding a group willing to let you try, though… and that’s what I mean by a “practical requirement”.

There was certainly no attempt to deceive or misrepresent.

And you know this how? You’ve obviously tried the raids will a full team of people in exotics and came to this perfect conclusion. All that was said directly was that raids are BALANCED around ascended gear.

Well, my friend, dungeons are balanced around a team of five and people solo them.

Vayne.8563:

Cdoto.4920:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Cdoto.4920:

lorddarkflare.9186:

I think it is extremely disingenuous to label Fractals as simply ‘gear-gated’. Not to mention that Raids actually have a much less stringent gate than Fractals.

Even on the current system, you can get pretty far with fractals in just ascended trinkets.

And it is not like crafting Ascended Armor is dark magic.

What would make it a more honest description in your opinion?

Are you disputing the claim that a certain grade of gear is a functional requirement to complete this content? That would be odd, given that you go on to say that one can “get pretty far” if you already have some of the gear behind which it is gated. So… you can get part-way through the gated content when you’ve partially overcome the gate.

Ascended trickets are not difficult to get. In fact, most ascended trinkets are notoriously easy to get. You can get a full set with just normal play.

The actual hard gate only comes into play after you have placed agony infusions in all those slots.

My challenge stems from the implication that fractals are virtually unapproachable unless you are fully decked out in ascended. That is what calling it ‘gear-gated’ suggests and that is clearly not true.

Ah, I see the disconnect.

What I said was “required to complete”, not “required to attempt”. Strictly speaking, you can walk into the raid in full exotics. It might even be possible to complete that way, given perfect play. Good luck finding a group willing to let you try, though… and that’s what I mean by a “practical requirement”.

There was certainly no attempt to deceive or misrepresent.

And you know this how? You’ve obviously tried the raids will a full team of people in exotics and came to this perfect conclusion. All that was said directly was that raids are BALANCED around ascended gear.

Well, my friend, dungeons are balanced around a team of five and people solo them.

Naked.

Vayne.8563:

Cdoto.4920:

<snip>

And you know this how? You’ve obviously tried the raids will a full team of people in exotics and came to this perfect conclusion. All that was said directly was that raids are BALANCED around ascended gear.

Well, my friend, dungeons are balanced around a team of five and people solo them.

Yes, because clearly (1) I asserted a “perfect conclusion” of some sort (whatever that means), (2) I have to have conducted an experiment in-game to draw preliminary conclusions from a news post, (3) my point was specifically about raids in the first place, and (4) dungeons are in some way relevant. Bit of a straw man there.

Still, thanks for staying civil, friend.

Cdoto.4920:

Vayne.8563:

Cdoto.4920:

<snip>

And you know this how? You’ve obviously tried the raids will a full team of people in exotics and came to this perfect conclusion. All that was said directly was that raids are BALANCED around ascended gear.

Well, my friend, dungeons are balanced around a team of five and people solo them.

Yes, because clearly (1) I asserted a “perfect conclusion” of some sort (whatever that means), (2) I have to have conducted an experiment in-game to draw preliminary conclusions from a news post, (3) my point was specifically about raids in the first place, and (4) dungeons are in some way relevant. Bit of a straw man there.

Still, thanks for staying civil, friend.

Of course dungeons are relevant if you’d pay some attention to what’s going on. Dungeons were BALANCED a certain way and people do them with MUCH LESS.

Raids are BALANCED around ascended gear. We’ve seen one boss of one beta. People will figure out ways to beat it, it’ll get easier and everyone will be able to do it. I’d wager entire teams of people will be able to beat it in exotics, because of my previous experience with the game.

Experience tells us that good players are generally better players than devs. That’s almost always true. So if a dev tells you ascended is needed (which they haven’t said anyway), then why would I naturally assume they were right.

Hell ascended was introduced in the first place because devs thought it would take a lot longer for people to get exotics.

Yes, how the company operates in the past has everything to do with predicting what they’re likely to do in the future. If you can’t see that, there’s not much point in continuing this conversation.

You’ve testing nothing, you have a theory based on no real evidence and you try to claim that my educated conclusion is meaningless simply because you don’t agree.

Let’s see what you have to say in six months time.

BaconofPigs.1683:

Cdoto.4920:

<snip>

Why do you think Raids are designed for elitists? You use the term elitists here to mean negativity. That’s an attitude. Raids are actually designed for people who want to do more challenging contents. There is a difference.

<snip>

If the ranger/necro goes and cry about it and actually believe he fits in that group, that player actually fits the definition of what an elitist actually is because he actually believes in the scenario where his inclusion would be better than the meta which itself is already the best by definition.

Maybe I should have said, “Raids are intended to exclude many people, and cater by design to a type of player who sees themselves as having superior talent and/or skill.” It would be nice to have a word for that without a pejorative context, but unfortunately in gaming that kind of attitude does tend to correlate with certain negative attitudes and create toxic community dynamics.

I will agree that attempting to join a group labelled “meta” without being meta is silly, and crying about it is also silly. The idea that someone is crying about it because they think they’re “better” than the meta seems a bit odd, though. In my (admittedly limited) experience, I’ve never met anyone who explained their thought process that way. Generally, what they were complaining about was not being able to do group content at all without being meta. Saying “Waah, they won’t let me play!” isn’t generally an elitist sentiment. It might be unrealistic, misguided, misinformed, entitled, and/or whiny, but it’s not elitist.

The problem I see is that if non-meta groups don’t happen, and you’re not meta, you just can’t do it. You can of course say, “Get friends!” or “Get Gud!”, but frankly, the whole game isn’t designed to exclude people, nor should the whole expansion be (even if raids are).

Vayne.8563:

Of course dungeons are relevant if you’d pay some attention to what’s going on. Dungeons were BALANCED a certain way and people do them with MUCH LESS.

Raids are BALANCED around ascended gear. We’ve seen one boss of one beta. People will figure out ways to beat it, it’ll get easier and everyone will be able to do it. I’d wager entire teams of people will be able to beat it in exotics, because of my previous experience with the game.

Experience tells us that good players are generally better players than devs. That’s almost always true. So if a dev tells you ascended is needed (which they haven’t said anyway), then why would I naturally assume they were right.

Hell ascended was introduced in the first place because devs thought it would take a lot longer for people to get exotics.

Yes, how the company operates in the past has everything to do with predicting what they’re likely to do in the future. If you can’t see that, there’s not much point in continuing this conversation.

You’ve testing nothing, you have a theory based on no real evidence and you try to claim that my educated conclusion is meaningless simply because you don’t agree.

Let’s see what you have to say in six months time.

I’m not saying what you have to say is meaningless. I called dungeons irrelevant because they are abandoned content. They are not being actively balanced around anything, as they are not under active development at all, and the only mention they’ve gotten in quite a while was the recent announcement that their gold rewards were being nerfed to make dungeon gold farming (which is what most people are still doing there) less appealing.

You are correct that I have no evidence of anything. If what I was saying was, “I have evidence that this is true”, or asserting any facts at all, that would be a fine response. What I have are concerns based on a reasonable premise, rooted in my own limited experience, which is impossible to test as fact before the concerns become either validated or moot. That’s why what I sought was information on stated design intent, as that directly informs the shape of the game in the future, but is unspecific enough to possibly be an answerable question.

I sincerely hope that, in six months time, I’m too busy doing fun stuff in-game to have much at all to say. Happy people don’t generally frequent forums. For the moment, color me worried.

Vayne.8563:

Well, my friend, dungeons are balanced around a team of five and people solo them.

That’s because dungeons do not have any mechanisms to prevent subpar groups from finishing. Raids do.

Astralporing.1957:

Vayne.8563:

Well, my friend, dungeons are balanced around a team of five and people solo them.

That’s because dungeons do not have any mechanisms to prevent subpar groups from finishing. Raids do.

Look the first raid boss has already been beaten. That’s like the first day of raids. Less than a day. I’m sure those guys probably all had ascended gear but I’m just as sure that a mixed group could do it once the fight is learned. I watched the video, I saw what was done. If a fully geared group can beat it on the first day, not even a full day, then I’m not worried about everyone having to have full ascended gear…keeping in mind that ascended jewelry is relatively easy to get.

These threads are getting old.

Get ascended gear or don’t play the content. You had 3 YEARS, suck it up or leave.

/thread

Vayne.8563:

I’m sure those guys probably all had ascended gear

They had, and geared for full dps. They were also already running the group setup that was hypothetized to have the best chance of finishing (both group that did were running very similar setups, btw), and they knew what they were doing.

Unless there are parts of that fight that weren’t revealed yet, we can’t expect the best groups to improve the time over those cases by much (barring a boss nerf, of course).

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Get ascended gear or don’t play the content. You had 3 YEARS, suck it up or leave.

If every player that didn’t play for 3 years yet did leave, that game would go under very fast.

Astralporing.1957:

Vayne.8563:

I’m sure those guys probably all had ascended gear

They had, and geared for full dps. They were also already running the group setup that was hypothetized to have the best chance of finishing (both group that did were running very similar setups, btw), and they knew what they were doing.

Unless there are parts of that fight that weren’t revealed yet, we can’t expect the best groups to improve the time over those cases by much (barring a boss nerf, of course).

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Get ascended gear or don’t play the content. You had 3 YEARS, suck it up or leave.

If every player that didn’t play for 3 years yet did leave, that game would go under very fast.

But they have no experience at it. The theory changes over time. People DO find better ways to do things. The player base is going to make it easier and easier as they learn ways to do it, just as we did with the Teq fight. I beat Triple Trouble most nights when I’m there with the Evos guild. It’s not an easier fight, we just have a better understanding of how to do it and how to execute.

Is there Agony in the Raid? Why exactly is Ascended required for the Raid? How much AR do you need? If you don’t need AR then you don’t actually need Ascended

There is no Agony in Raids but a majority of people think that the 5% better stats are a must have for Raids which is total bs.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Is there Agony in the Raid? Why exactly is Ascended required for the Raid? How much AR do you need? If you don’t need AR then you don’t actually need Ascended

No Agony in raid. It’s just that fight are hard and people will mostly ask for ascended trinkets/weapons so that everybody do their best.

Thaddeus.4891:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Is there Agony in the Raid? Why exactly is Ascended required for the Raid? How much AR do you need? If you don’t need AR then you don’t actually need Ascended

No Agony in raid. It’s just that fight are hard and people will mostly ask for ascended trinkets/weapons so that everybody do their best.

I really fail to see how ANet effectively balanced for 5%, nor for that matter how it will matter, ultimately. Groups will definitely be doing the raid in exotics, and they’ll do just fine, because of course they will.

As someone said, people in full ascended without food buffs will be less effective than those in exotics with… therefore if food is not required for those in ascended, then people in exotics (with appropriate food) will do just fine (as agony won’t exist in raids)..

I’m not sure how there can really be much discussion about this.

Kal Spiro.9745:

I really fail to see how ANet effectively balanced for 5%, nor for that matter how it will matter, ultimately. Groups will definitely be doing the raid in exotics, and they’ll do just fine, because of course they will.

1) It’s 6.5% more stats, not 5%. With the weapons strength, you are talking about a difference of 12-15% in term of dps. So a full ascended gear vs a full exotic gear have a huge difference.

2) That said. An engineer have around 40% more dps than a Guardian. Food/Nourishment count for around 8%. And full buff count for around 250%. So even if 12-15% if important, it’s far more important that a lot of other stuff like the composition and good uptime buff.

3) In reality, trinkets isn’t really an issue since it’s easy, if not even easier to get ascended trinkets than exotic ones. If you only count the Armor/weapons, then it’s really only a very small portion of the total dps and even if that count, there is a lot of factor more important than that.

4) Raids won’t require Ascended, but it’s more about perception at that point. If raids are as hard as they are suppose to. I’m gonna want to give it my 100%. This mean that if we fail, I’m gonna go over myself and my team and see what we can improve. Ascended is one basic part that everybody can do to improve the team as a whole. It’s not the only factor, it’s not even the biggest, but it’s one of them. I will not care at all if someone have ascended trinket, but no armour. But if the guy is in full exotic, I’m gonna question his commitment to the raid and to the team. I want 9 person that want to do their best to finish the raid and have a good experience.

In conclusion. To me, ascended is a small factor, but still a factor that I will take into account when I’m gonna form raid team in my guild. The amount of scrutiny I’ll apply to each member will depend on the actual difficulty of the raid.

So much salt, I love it when people whine about “grind” when you can literally do anything in-game that gives decent loot and get your ascended gear in a few months’ time, just with a couple hours a day. Top-tier gear doesn’t just fall out of the sky!

Andred.1087:

So much salt, I love it when people whine about “grind” when you can literally do anything in-game that gives decent loot and get your ascended gear in a few months’ time, just with a couple hours a day. Top-tier gear doesn’t just fall out of the sky!

Unless you get an ascended weapon from beating Tequatl, in which case, top tier gear did just fall out of the sky….just saying lol.

Vayne.8563:

Astralporing.1957:

Vayne.8563:

Well, my friend, dungeons are balanced around a team of five and people solo them.

That’s because dungeons do not have any mechanisms to prevent subpar groups from finishing. Raids do.

Look the first raid boss has already been beaten. That’s like the first day of raids. Less than a day. I’m sure those guys probably all had ascended gear but I’m just as sure that a mixed group could do it once the fight is learned. I watched the video, I saw what was done. If a fully geared group can beat it on the first day, not even a full day, then I’m not worried about everyone having to have full ascended gear…keeping in mind that ascended jewelry is relatively easy to get.

And that was the first boss, being taken down with ascended gear. All that says is that the first boss doesn’t take more than a day to learn the tactics for, and nothing whatsoever about gear nor about what’s going to be neccessary to finish.

That said, the answer to my concerns isn’t “but we can raid!” They’ve said directly that raids are “not for everyone,” and as someone who can’t stick to a main and certainly can’t afford to gear my alts, that cuts me out. I think we can agree that the enforced gear treadmill in high end fractals makes them “not for everyone” either, for many of the same reasons. My question was, “so going forward, what new content does ‘everyone’ get when they buy the xpack? Just a Living Story patch and ‘adventure’ minigames, or are there plans to have substantial content going forward that doesn’t necessarily involve gearing up?”