Build Locking
Sigh
And that is why threads like this come into being.
“Please understand, this content is only for awesome people. I don’t meant to insult you, honest, but you’re sort of a talentless scrub. Sorry, man. This content can’t be something talentless scrubs can accomplish, because then it wouldn’t be worth doing. Only content that the top five percent of players in this game, the awesome players, will ever see is worth doing. The rest of the game is mostly just filler. I mean, if you like filler that’s great! Enjoy it! I’ve been known to slum it around in filler content a time or two myself, in between cooking five-star meals at my oceanfront mansion for me and my supermodel physicist fiance! Filler content’s not bad, but…well, you are.
And if they keep making content for bads like you, well, the game just won’t hold up."
Is it really any wonder you guys get flak over this stuff?
I love the idea of build locking.
But I’m curious as to what you think should be locked?
- Change Weapons
- Change Armour
- Change Stats (ascended armour and weapons)
- Trait points
- Class Features (Ranger pets, Revenant legends)
- Heal, Elite and Utility skills
Further how would ANET prevent this? For some reason I see people disconnecting and relogging. The same sort of shenanigans people use to rez for Mai Trin. Or could you drop your one class and bring in another toon on your account? Maybe even a duplicate toon with a different spec?
http://massivelyop.com/2015/08/31/pax-prime-2015-guild-wars-2-is-never-getting-a-raid-finder/
Because of the large diversity of encounters, I was prompted to ask whether players will be able to swap out abilities between boss fights. Johanson said that currently players are in combat the whole time they are in the raid instance, so swapping out abilities isn’t possible. But he did say that ANet is still “playing around with what [it] will let you change.” However, he was quick to point out that weapon swapping can easily change a character’s role in the group, and that can be done on the fly.
And who knows, the raids currently may not need a ton of gear/build swapping around from boss to boss for non-speed runners.
That, simply, cannot, happen. Raids were brought in the game to satisfy the needs of the hardcore crowd. If build swapping is allowed, you can bet your important personal asset that it will be required. If it’s not, then those who tailor made their builds, will find minimal challenge in the whole affair and after a while the complaints will start. How arena net didn’t offer what was asked. To top it off, if it’s not required to finish the content that means casuals will be able to do it also, further devaluing an already devalued aspect of the game and raids will be considered another “failure”.
Understand this please, hard and challenging content -cannot- be completed by the majority of the players in the game, if it does, it simply isn’t challenging. Content like that is there for the few, those who will put in the time, effort and persistence. It’s like asking for everyone on the pvp ladder to be able to reach the top tier. It cannot happen. It devalues the thing. Please don’t ask for raids to cater to the 10 strangers who met at queensdale and decided to go raiding.
You seem to be fixated on the idea that builds and gear determine the outcome of an encounter which is simply no the case.
If done right builds and gear will have some impact on the success or failure of groups but not the biggest impact – I think skilled play has to have the most impact. And there are many ways to do it.
Let’s look at Mai Trin’s cannon phase – your gear and build have a minimal impact on your survival during that phase.
What about the Mad King’s Clock Tower? That again is a challenge that gear and build do not influence.
There could be many more similar things added to ensure increased difficulty that’s not tied into your traits or your gear.
I don’t think Anet intends for Raids to be inaccessible to casual players either – they’ve made no statements about it.
Build locking is not something that will add difficulty in any meaningful way – sure it can make it harder but it doesn’t make it more skillful – just harder.
Also when did this become a “please don’t let the casuals complete” discussion ?
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
http://massivelyop.com/2015/08/31/pax-prime-2015-guild-wars-2-is-never-getting-a-raid-finder/
Because of the large diversity of encounters, I was prompted to ask whether players will be able to swap out abilities between boss fights. Johanson said that currently players are in combat the whole time they are in the raid instance, so swapping out abilities isn’t possible. But he did say that ANet is still “playing around with what [it] will let you change.” However, he was quick to point out that weapon swapping can easily change a character’s role in the group, and that can be done on the fly.
And people will easily find ways around the “in combat” thing really quickly.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
I really think that build locking is needed for challenging raids to work…
But I don’t see how this will work. I mean, what’s to stop someone from just zoning out, changing their build, then zoning back in or even just swapping to a different character with a different build?
I’m pretty sure this is why builds weren’t locked for dungeons either.
Raids are gonna be hardcore. If you can’t trust the people you’re raiding with you might as well not even go in. It doesn’t sound like a very PUG kind of content. Maybe plan on making friends who play in the same timezone as you and forming a regular raid night group.
Build locking or not has nothing to do with whether it’s PUGable or not. PUG’s will still attempt it. I’d rather players decide raids are not for them because the content is too hard for them. Not because they got tired of having to quit mid-raid because they were missing one crucial trait.
And really, if whether it’s challenging or not is down to whether builds or locked or not, then the content would be easily done by PUG’s.
I would not be opposed for an optional forced build lock on the instance. Where you could choose before going in if it’s a build locked run or a build unlocked run. Nor would I be opposed to the build locked run having better rewards since it would be harder.
It just shouldn’t be forced on anyone nor be described as something that will make or break whether or not the content is challenging.
It does have to do with PUGs, because who else would you play with that you couldn’t trust to keep their build relevant to the content? If your friends or guildmates can’t be trusted then why are you friends or guildies with them?
Build locking is a garbage idea. It won’t solve the rage that the OP feels. Because it’s really not about the builds of their party members, it’s about how well their party members play.
If you get into build locking everything will be pushed towards more cookie-cutter standardization with people like OP shouting at anyone who doesn’t run what OP thinks is best.
If you can’t trust the people you play with, find some people you CAN trust and rely on. For high level content I don’t think it SHOULD be puggable. I think you should need an organized group of people who know each other well and are communicating on the same level.
Sigh
And that is why threads like this come into being.
“Please understand, this content is only for awesome people. I don’t meant to insult you, honest, but you’re sort of a talentless scrub. Sorry, man. This content can’t be something talentless scrubs can accomplish, because then it wouldn’t be worth doing. Only content that the top five percent of players in this game, the awesome players, will ever see is worth doing. The rest of the game is mostly just filler. I mean, if you like filler that’s great! Enjoy it! I’ve been known to slum it around in filler content a time or two myself, in between cooking five-star meals at my oceanfront mansion for me and my supermodel physicist fiance! Filler content’s not bad, but…well, you are.
And if they keep making content for bads like you, well, the game just won’t hold up."
Is it really any wonder you guys get flak over this stuff?
Have you even read my post addressed and made especially for you? Any reply you’d like to make? Or is it that you simply post and then ignore when people answer?
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
No thanks, add the option to save builds so it can be done in a timely manner instead with a simple click. I see no reason why players shouldn’t be able to switch their build to what is most effective for that encounter.
The class part I agree with.
Have you even read my post addressed and made especially for you? Any reply you’d like to make? Or is it that you simply post and then ignore when people answer?
Please allow me to summarize, to ensure I’ve gotten the thread of it, then I’ll answer.
You disagree that the LFG tool is useless to casual players, and are irritated that casual players don’t seem to want to put in effort to find like-minded souls to play with.
If my playstyle/goals seem misplaced, it’s perhaps time to adjust how I play the game to better fall in line with in-game norms.
Veterans/‘hardcores’/raid-type players are looking for their fix, but they don’t want that fix to come at the expense of existing, less stringent content. There’s no reason why doing the one should eliminate the other, and with a surfeit of casual content, it seems high time for ArenaNet to introduce some of the more difficult stuff.
Is that about it?
If so, then in response:
A.) A fair point. I have never used the LFG tool and will continue to not do so. I don’t particularly like LFG tools; they’ve steered me wrong in other games, and if it’s needed to fill out a thin guild party I prefer to let other members of the group handle it. That said, I don’t know as how preferring to either play alone, which is actually somewhat restful and relaxing for me oftentimes, or with friends/guildmates makes me a bad human being. Especially given different definitions of ‘casual’ among the general player populace.
B.) I like how I play. If the game doesn’t want to support that anymore, then it’s time for me to move on. I actually have high hopes that my particular preferences are being emphasized rather than downplayed in Heart of Thorns – if Silverwastes is seen as something of a prototype run for the Maguuma Jungle, then versatile characters such as Lilyana who are equipped with a broad array of tools and answers they can employ at a moment’s notice are much stronger in the Silverwastes, compared to the usual Berserker norm, than they are elsewhere.
My wish is not so much “all of you, play the way I want to play or go home!”, as it is “Hey, this is a really cool thing! I’d like to keep doing it; can I?” The answer is yes, of course – I don’t rely on LFG or public groups at all so I suppose it’s a moot point for me in the end, but it’s always disheartening to see people rag so steadily and hate so consistently on the very same style of play I grew to love in the original Guild Wars.
C.) To me, it’s always a very tricky thing to ask for the nut-clenchingly, tooth-grindingly, soul-devouringly difficult face-destroying no-mercy ubercontent the Hardcores are always looking for. Very, very, VERY few people on this forum are even remotely as good as they think they are – they want content that only the top five hundred players of GW2, let’s say, could ever hope to complete, all confident in the fact that obviously they’re one of those five hundred players.
When it turns out they’re not, the backlash is always pretty severe.
I could talk about why I think raids are the wrong choice for GW2, and in fact had typed about that for a while, but it’s not really relevant. I suppose what I’m groping towards is that I wish the game would reward players equally for equal levels of mastery in different things. If the Raid guys get their exclusive gear and all that, sweet. Good for them, let them have their exclusive stuff. But they’re the only ones who get cool stuff.
It doesn’t matter if I’m better with my semi-fixed Engineer build, more adept at squeezing out performance from my chosen set-up, than a Hardcore is with any one of the seventeen sub-pseudobuilds he uses on his own Engineer. Only the guys who have seventeen sets of gear, seventeen different trait set-ups, and who subscribe to the speedrun/farm/‘Hardcore’ method of playing what amounts to a different character for every single fight (if they don’t actually log out and switch characters outright, which is an exploit, make no mistake) get to show off their awesome.
That rankles with me, because it’s the exact opposite of how the original Guild Wars worked, and the original Guild Wars is the reason I’m here. It’s…lazy. There’s no decision-making to it, there’s no style to it. Swapping between three characters in an instance, each with seventeen different builds, all to ensure that you have just exactly what you need in order to bypass/trivialize every fight…I don’t understand it. I can’t understand it, and as much as I try to remember that some people really do like playing that way, it’s just anathema to me.
So yes. I’d like at least some sort of challenging content which restricts build/character swapping, something where being able to play your one preferred set-up really freaking well is more important than having fifty pieces of Ascended gear in your bags in each of the three characters you switch between on a fightly basis. Because to me, that is a true demonstration of talent and skill, but it’s one I’m pretty much never going to be able to strive towards.
And that sucks.
Anyways. Does that answer your post?
Raids are gonna be hardcore. If you can’t trust the people you’re raiding with you might as well not even go in. It doesn’t sound like a very PUG kind of content. Maybe plan on making friends who play in the same timezone as you and forming a regular raid night group.
Build locking or not has nothing to do with whether it’s PUGable or not. PUG’s will still attempt it. I’d rather players decide raids are not for them because the content is too hard for them. Not because they got tired of having to quit mid-raid because they were missing one crucial trait.
And really, if whether it’s challenging or not is down to whether builds or locked or not, then the content would be easily done by PUG’s.
I would not be opposed for an optional forced build lock on the instance. Where you could choose before going in if it’s a build locked run or a build unlocked run. Nor would I be opposed to the build locked run having better rewards since it would be harder.
It just shouldn’t be forced on anyone nor be described as something that will make or break whether or not the content is challenging.
It does have to do with PUGs, because who else would you play with that you couldn’t trust to keep their build relevant to the content? If your friends or guildmates can’t be trusted then why are you friends or guildies with them?
Build locking is a garbage idea. It won’t solve the rage that the OP feels. Because it’s really not about the builds of their party members, it’s about how well their party members play.
If you get into build locking everything will be pushed towards more cookie-cutter standardization with people like OP shouting at anyone who doesn’t run what OP thinks is best.
If you can’t trust the people you play with, find some people you CAN trust and rely on. For high level content I don’t think it SHOULD be puggable. I think you should need an organized group of people who know each other well and are communicating on the same level.
PUGs would still attempt it. They want the special loot. Either way for PUGs it will be difficult. LFG listings will have complicated requirements and strict kicking if not met. Especially if build locked.
And if they do build lock, it should be after someone tells an NPC that the group is ready and I’ve it be like Fractals. That way everyone gets a chance to finalize a build and no one can troll it.
A) It doesn’t – what makes you wrong is wanting the game to be changed in such a way that you more easily fit into other people’s LFGs or they’re forced to take you along because you yourself cannot find the motivation to make your own groups when none exist. So instead of fixing your own problem you want the game to fix it for you in a way that creates a problem for others and diminishes their rights and enjoyment of the game.
B)The answer is of course “yes you can” but here’s the catch – if your way of playing ruins my experience I have the right to add “but not if you want to play with me”. This puts the choice right back in your hands – you can switch your play style and we can play together or you can keep your play style and you can play without me.
I don’t want to be in a situation where I’m forced to take along people that play in a disruptive way to me.
As a side note – most players that were into GW1 are gone – GW2 is a totally different game from a mechanics perspective – sharing only some lore elements with its predecessor.
And I don’t know what GW1 you played but in farm parties that did speed clearing of various areas for profit it was ping the correct build or kick so I don’t see much difference there. You ran the cookie cutter build or you went home.
C) No – actually I think your’re wrong. I don’t think anyone wants content that’s nearly impossible to win at.
And for practical purposes Anet would never deliver content that just 500 people could do – it would be a waste of manpower.
I think the hardcore want harder content – sure – but I doubt they’re aiming for insanely hard try for 1 month straight and still fail all day long type of thing.
Backlash regarding hardcore content very rarely comes from hardcore players – because of different mindsets. A hardcore player has the time and dedication to improve – so as long as something is doable he’ll mash his head against the wall and get better at it. The complaints come from other categories of players – that feel they can’t overcome the challenge posed to them.
It doesn’t matter if I’m better with my semi-fixed Engineer build, more adept at squeezing out performance from my chosen set-up, than a Hardcore is with any one of the seventeen sub-pseudobuilds he uses on his own Engineer.
And how is this wrong? To me it reads : “it doesn’t matter that I’m better with a knife than this guy who uses a rifle”.
If he uses a better set-up it really doesn’t matter how good you are on a worse setup.
Look at it this way – if I play a condition damage Greatsword+hammer warrior in PvP it doesn’t matter I’m the god of reflex dodging and positioning – people will wreck me as well they should.
Also – logging in and out of raids ( while not confirmed) is not an exploit – if Anet intends for you to not be able to do this they will not allow you to log back in once out. If not it’s fair game.
I get what you’re saying about GW1 – I came to GW2 from GW1 same as you. I loved that game and I loved that lore but I’ve come to realize that GW2 is not GW1 and is not a successor to GW1 – it is a game that borrows established lore and locations and that’s pretty much it.
This is not the same game and as far as I know very few people that worked on GW1 now work on GW2.
Ten years have passed since GW1 first came out and a lot of things have changed. If you keep trying to view GW2 through the eyes of the GW1 player you’ll never quite see it for what it is and never accept it in order to fully enjoy it.
And let’s please not forget that GW1 had its fair share of trivialization of content – certain team builds for heroes would mean you could wreck entire maps with no issue at all.
As for the decision-making? GW2 is less about building a build and more about skill and reflex in battle. You can have a perfectly theorycrafted build with immense synergy and awesome stuff in it – but it won’t matter at all if you can’t land hits on an opponent that simply outdodges you.
Regarding your last statement – this is how I see it – restricted builds means you’ll pretty much be playing what the rest of the raid want you even more than before.
In a non-restricted build scenario if your build was let’s say “suboptimal” and created a deficit to your team in some area another player could maybe change his set-up to take some pressure off the team.
In the build lock scenario you get checked from the start – each person brings what they need to bring and if you don’t have that – tough luck – you can’t join because nobody can cover for you.
It does answer some things – but some things I feel I just can’t understand.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Build locking is really bad idea and it will cripple diversity of some classes like engi. Good engis rely on skill swapping and this make them even less wanted
Tekkit Mojo – Engineer
Tekkit’s Workshop
Tekkit’s Workshop
Now that raids are coming to the game, can we please add some build locking into them?
The last thing we need is having to go through the same thing we ’re going through in the fractals were people switch around traits, gear, abilities and weapons from boss to boss.
Or even worst classes. There’s nothing challenging about that, it’s just a massive annoyance that you have to do before each fight.
Can the raids we get, build/class lock you when you enter, so people can enjoy the content without changing stuff around all the time.
why do you want to remove the diversity of the classes?
it’s exactly the other way round bro. making it possible to change gear / traits / weapons during the dungeon makes it more interresting as you can adjust your group to the situation you’re in
Finally someone who understands it. Btw, what do YOU think about what Colin said here:
http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/13427956?t=28m06s
From ~28:06 to ~29:06
Well some of it sounds like pr talk. Reminds me that thing they said about not having attunement but conveniently forgot that we’ll have to grind masteries.
In any case, i think it is a possitive thing if they do manage to pull off the feat that will have all classes in the game to be able to do at least 2 out of the 3 roles they suggested we already can do (doubt it). Support, control, dps. That will most certainly give out a bit of flavor for all classes, cause right now we’re all in one role, dps.
To go back to the topic at hand, it seems they do have some sort of build locking already in place, so I would expect that we’ll have to use new builds that can perform ok in more than one role. Or at least that’s my hope and wish.
Sigh
And that is why threads like this come into being.
“Please understand, this content is only for awesome people. I don’t meant to insult you, honest, but you’re sort of a talentless scrub. Sorry, man. This content can’t be something talentless scrubs can accomplish, because then it wouldn’t be worth doing. Only content that the top five percent of players in this game, the awesome players, will ever see is worth doing. The rest of the game is mostly just filler. I mean, if you like filler that’s great! Enjoy it! I’ve been known to slum it around in filler content a time or two myself, in between cooking five-star meals at my oceanfront mansion for me and my supermodel physicist fiance! Filler content’s not bad, but…well, you are.
And if they keep making content for bads like you, well, the game just won’t hold up."
Is it really any wonder you guys get flak over this stuff?
You are absolutely right my friend. This is exactly what’s being said. That’s why I was very much against the idea of raids for the game. However they’re here, and denying the reality of it doesn’t do anyone any justice. I was a raider before, and it looks like i’ll be one again. Raids are to pve, what to top tier ladders are to pvp. You don’t go about mocking the professional pvp teams do you? You don’t call them out on their elitism. You accept that. And yet for pve it’s different? Raids symbolise the ability of a group of people to discipline and coordinate themselves in such a manner that others cannot. They represent a level of commitement to the game that one can easily say it’s almost like work. When you enter a raid team you’re making a long term commitement. You pretty much say to 9 other people that almost every saturday for the next X months, you commit to being there, to having the gear you need to have, to having the build you need to have, to follow the instructions of the raid leader, to brainstorm together with the rest of the team to overcome each boss etc etc. Quite frankly, if raids are at a level were casual pugs can do them, they stop representing what they should represent and become just 10 man dungeons ready for speed runs. Does that sound like challenging group content? And one last thing, if truly Anet doesn’t see raids like that, then maybe they shouldn’t give to raids 6 slots of legendary gear, when pvp, which is definetely like that only gets 1, or fractals. And don’t get me started on the guys that do WvW, they get nothing. So clearly, the logical conclusion is that raid is for Anet the pinnacle of the game.
Personally, I would love it if all rewards were time gated for the rest of the game so 6 months later or 3 months later, other people could just do pvp, or wvw or grind events in maguuma and get the same rewards. I think that’s what would be best for the game and the community, since I don’t like it when people feel left behind. But, raids, cannot be anything else than an elitist playground.
Hope that cleared up some things.
I love the idea of build locking.
But I’m curious as to what you think should be locked?
- Change Weapons
- Change Armour
- Change Stats (ascended armour and weapons)
- Trait points
- Class Features (Ranger pets, Revenant legends)
- Heal, Elite and Utility skills
Further how would ANET prevent this? For some reason I see people disconnecting and relogging. The same sort of shenanigans people use to rez for Mai Trin. Or could you drop your one class and bring in another toon on your account? Maybe even a duplicate toon with a different spec?
Me too :P
I think the lock should be on gear, traits and classes. You shouldn’t be able to relog with your mezmer, and you shouldn’t be able to change your gear or traits. Abilities i think would be ok.
Put in a disconnecct limit? go offline 2 times during the raid and you’re out?
Also when did this become a “please don’t let the casuals complete” discussion ?
I didn’t become don’t let the casuals complete, it is, casuals shouldn’t be able to complete. 10 strangers shouldn’t be able to progress. it’s different. the challenge will be there, accesible to all, everyone is welcome to try it, and I imaging 6 months down the line, or a year down the line all raids would be on farm status and more causal players could follow a guide and pull it off just fine in their own time. But if 10 strangers, with zero knowledge on the raids, and zero practice on their strategy can pull it off, well, that’s bad. Bad design, bad desition on the part of the company, and certainly not challenging content.
why do you want to remove the diversity of the classes?
it’s exactly the other way round bro. making it possible to change gear / traits / weapons during the dungeon makes it more interresting as you can adjust your group to the situation you’re in
Because atm i don’t feel there’s any diversity in the classes. We’re all dps. I feel that build locking will allow us to come with new builds that are more diverse and fun to play with. If you start to change gear, traits, weapons it won’t make it more interesting just more bothersome. You would still need to use whatever build is considered the optimal for the content, or whatever the raid leader tells you to use. Only difference is, with build locking you’ll do it once and be done with it, with switching around you’ll end up doing it after every fight, you’ll end up staring the ui instead of the instance.
In most games, Casuals are the majority. In GW2, Casuals are the game. Azumi.9572
This is one of the worst ideas I’ve come across on this forum.
I post from a phone so please excuse any references to ducks or any other auto corrections.
Because atm i don’t feel there’s any diversity in the classes. We’re all dps. I feel that build locking will allow us to come with new builds that are more diverse and fun to play with. If you start to change gear, traits, weapons it won’t make it more interesting just more bothersome. You would still need to use whatever build is considered the optimal for the content, or whatever the raid leader tells you to use. Only difference is, with build locking you’ll do it once and be done with it, with switching around you’ll end up doing it after every fight, you’ll end up staring the ui instead of the instance.
What? with locking gear / build will “allow us to come with new builds that are more diverse and fun to play with.”
that makes absolutely no sense
just because we’re all dps now doesn’t mean we’re all dps then – if all raid bosses are easy doable in zerk gear everyone will run it.
Nobody switches from DPS to something different if thats not needed and it is way more interesting to adjust the group setup for every boss than to be locked into the buil/gear you’ve chosen as you entered the raid.
But that topic is the same as every “restrict sth” topic – if you want to restrict it … run with guildies and restrict it the way you like it. Imho there is absolutely no reason to do it as the result will be the total opposite of what you think it will be.
At the end of the day you will need to run 2/3 bosses suboptimal because you specced for the 3rd one instead of being able to adjust your roles the way you need them.
If an ele can specc pure heal for one boss and maximum fire dps AoE Meteor bangbang for the other it is was more diverse than to have a heal ally the whole time.
I really don’t subscribe to this “build locking” idea. It will just create artificial frustration. You’ll be forcing people to restart the instance repeatedly fine tuning their team build, you also cannot inspect people in GW2 so if someone forgets or was sleeping while you were explaining what to take you cannot correct it once you’re in.
The main problem I have is that you’re requiring foreknowledge of the raid to set your skills or you’re having to reset the whole dungeon each time you come across a powerful mechanic you didn’’t spec for an hour ago – which will be very annoying.
Its not a good system for this game – I haven’t even touched on the “everyone needs to bring 1 ranged and 1 melee weapon for the whole raid” problem.
It may be an increase in knowledge and strategy setting up a perfect team but so annoying keeping 10 people from going mad when you find out person X forgot skill Y and we’re about to start boss 3 which needs Y – time to reset guys, try not to kill X.
(edited by Coulter.2315)
Unlocked, the classes that can do everything will be stacked.
Locked, at least there is the potential to bring a little bit of everything (class).
Looks like build locking won’t be incorporated in the game, you can switch stuff around between encounters…
I wonder how are they gonna get raiders to bring certain classes along now…
Not to mention the constant switching around all the time…
In most games, Casuals are the majority. In GW2, Casuals are the game. Azumi.9572
What? with locking gear / build will “allow us to come with new builds that are more diverse and fun to play with.”
that makes absolutely no sense
Actually it does, you just have to think a bit differently. See when you can adjust to any situation you don’t really need diverse builds, builds that can do 2 or 3 things relatively well. We’ll only ever need builds that do one thing really well. Whatever it is that your function will be in the raid. With build locking however you’ll have to come up with a build that can funtion well for all the bosses, and that means that each build would require that you do more than one thing. Thus new builds could form that would do a bit of support and dps, or dps and control or control and support. Without build blocking the raid leader will just call the roles and there will be fewer of those builds around. Everyone will be specialized to the extreme. I find that less fun, and more boring
In most games, Casuals are the majority. In GW2, Casuals are the game. Azumi.9572
I didn’t become don’t let the casuals complete, it is, casuals shouldn’t be able to complete. 10 strangers shouldn’t be able to progress. it’s different. the challenge will be there, accesible to all, everyone is welcome to try it, and I imaging 6 months down the line, or a year down the line all raids would be on farm status and more causal players could follow a guide and pull it off just fine in their own time. But if 10 strangers, with zero knowledge on the raids, and zero practice on their strategy can pull it off, well, that’s bad. Bad design, bad desition on the part of the company, and certainly not challenging content.
This is somewhat agree with you.
I was thinking more along the line of 10 strangers with godlike skill and ability in this game should be able to make it on their first run eventually. Not 100% smooth but their skill and ability should matter more than simply learning where the walls in their path are by blindly bumping into them and repeating until they have the entire sequence down.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
What? with locking gear / build will “allow us to come with new builds that are more diverse and fun to play with.”
that makes absolutely no sense
Actually it does, you just have to think a bit differently. See when you can adjust to any situation you don’t really need diverse builds, builds that can do 2 or 3 things relatively well. We’ll only ever need builds that do one thing really well. Whatever it is that your function will be in the raid. With build locking however you’ll have to come up with a build that can funtion well for all the bosses, and that means that each build would require that you do more than one thing. Thus new builds could form that would do a bit of support and dps, or dps and control or control and support. Without build blocking the raid leader will just call the roles and there will be fewer of those builds around. Everyone will be specialized to the extreme. I find that less fun, and more boring
So you don’t assume people will split roles at the start of the raid – with the classes that do one role best being designated as that role ?
You assume everyone will bring a “balanced class” – wow that’s amusing.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
That fact we see class stacking in every game mode now when content isn’t even that “hard” imagine what happens when they turn it up a notch.
That fact we see class stacking in every game mode now when content isn’t even that “hard” imagine what happens when they turn it up a notch.
Yea, but the tough thing with this is that it’s community driven.
Changing game mechanics is relatively easy compared to changing the habits of a collective community.
That fact we see class stacking in every game mode now when content isn’t even that “hard” imagine what happens when they turn it up a notch.
Yea, but the tough thing with this is that it’s community driven.
Changing game mechanics is relatively easy compared to changing the habits of a collective community.
Well balance would help, but it’s impossible now as well. You can’t take the status quo of the last 3 years and change it, people are too used to being on top. The amount of toys that went out of the pram on buffs to under performing classes was immense. Can you imagine the uproar if suddenly Warrior / Ele was replaced by Engi and Ranger as the must haves?
If an ele can specc pure heal for one boss and maximum fire dps AoE Meteor bangbang for the other it is was more diverse than to have a heal ally the whole time.
This will result in people playing the best professions with the best builds for each encounter meaning it will either be too easy with the perfect setup or impossible with many other setups.
Ele is super good at dealing damage with build A and is super good at healing with build B.
How many other professions are able to do that? If boss 1 needs a lot of damage and boss 2 needs a lot of healing what profession would you take if you are able to change your build?
We will probably end up seeing people even changing professions after each boss in order to kill him faster and easier.
Unlocked, the classes that can do everything will be stacked.
Locked, at least there is the potential to bring a little bit of everything (class).
Its up to Anet to bring all classes to a desired state, this is one of the number 1 issues with so many games, some classes have wayyy to much utility while others suffer from having hardly any.
So you don’t assume people will split roles at the start of the raid – with the classes that do one role best being designated as that role ?
You assume everyone will bring a “balanced class” – wow that’s amusing.
I don’t so much as asume, but more along the lines of hoping it will happen if the content requires it. What I’m fairly sure of though, is that there will be no balanced builds with us being able to change stuff between fights. We will 99% of the cases be stuck with the designated role.
In most games, Casuals are the majority. In GW2, Casuals are the game. Azumi.9572
We will probably end up seeing people even changing professions after each boss in order to kill him faster and easier.
We won’t get build locking, can we at least not have to suffer this too?
In most games, Casuals are the majority. In GW2, Casuals are the game. Azumi.9572
Its up to Anet to bring all classes to a desired state, this is one of the number 1 issues with so many games, some classes have wayyy to much utility while others suffer from having hardly any.
Maybe they should have first brought the classes on par with each other, and then add raids?
In most games, Casuals are the majority. In GW2, Casuals are the game. Azumi.9572
We will probably end up seeing people even changing professions after each boss in order to kill him faster and easier.
We won’t get build locking, can we at least not have to suffer this too?
The only way to prevent this is to prevent anyone from rejoining the group of the leave it. Which is where Fractals started at. Which would prohibit anyone with spotty internet issues from doing raids. And spotty internet can happen to hardcore players, too.
Which means build locking would not be completely locked given ANet’s past history with making it so disconnects don’t punish a player or group. And most players could figure out how to kill their internet or the power if it required the connection to be suddenly lost.
Im all for being able to change gear, traits, skills and all that between Boss fights.
As long as they can make sure as Colin said to MassivelyOP, that you will not be able to go to the corner of the fight and get ooc and change build mid fight I am happy!
When you enter a boss fight with all 10 people, you are committed to use the build you set up, until you wipe or kill it.
Also from what I can see in the raid video. The boss area will be blocked, so you can’t leave it and easily reset it! Perfect I love it, keep it up Anet! And do that to dungeons and raids also. (Looking at Cliffsite Diviner at the top).
Can’t wait to get more raid info!
Dungeons being about how fast you clear then compared to being able to clear them makes me sad.
(edited by Manifibel.8420)
The only way to prevent this is to prevent anyone from rejoining the group of the leave it. Which is where Fractals started at. Which would prohibit anyone with spotty internet issues from doing raids. And spotty internet can happen to hardcore players, too.
Which means build locking would not be completely locked given ANet’s past history with making it so disconnects don’t punish a player or group. And most players could figure out how to kill their internet or the power if it required the connection to be suddenly lost.
Or they could class lock, and allow you to rejoin the raid only with the class you’ve entered it with? You can disconnect as many times as you can, but you’ll only get in the instance if you’re with the class you had in your first encounter? That could work could it not?
In most games, Casuals are the majority. In GW2, Casuals are the game. Azumi.9572
Unlocked, the classes that can do everything will be stacked.
Locked, at least there is the potential to bring a little bit of everything (class).
Its up to Anet to bring all classes to a desired state, this is one of the number 1 issues with so many games, some classes have wayyy to much utility while others suffer from having hardly any.
Couldn’t agree more, having been on the bad end of it for a very long time, it’s worn me down, I always live with a little hope that something will happen hence drifting around the forums having not been active in game for months.
The only way to prevent this is to prevent anyone from rejoining the group of the leave it. Which is where Fractals started at. Which would prohibit anyone with spotty internet issues from doing raids. And spotty internet can happen to hardcore players, too.
Which means build locking would not be completely locked given ANet’s past history with making it so disconnects don’t punish a player or group. And most players could figure out how to kill their internet or the power if it required the connection to be suddenly lost.
Or they could class lock, and allow you to rejoin the raid only with the class you’ve entered it with? You can disconnect as many times as you can, but you’ll only get in the instance if you’re with the class you had in your first encounter? That could work could it not?
Depends on if that’s even possible in the code.
Haven’t read any posts except for that from OP, but please, please don’t make this the case. Changing builds and weapons in the middle of raids should, if anything, be increased. You should be thinking about the future encounter more and how you and your group will handle it. I hope this is also why they decided to add legendary armor. Hopefully changing stats and build types in the middle will become more important.
Lägertha Lothbrök: PvE Mesmer
Schrödingers Clone: PvP Mesmer
Schrödingers Clone: PvP Mesmer
Its up to Anet to bring all classes to a desired state, this is one of the number 1 issues with so many games, some classes have wayyy to much utility while others suffer from having hardly any.
Maybe they should have first brought the classes on par with each other, and then add raids?
Coulda, Shoulda Woulda, they didn’t so now it’s up to them to make all classes desirable.
For the build locking I think there is an interesting solution: achievements.
For istance, when you enter the raid (from the “raid lobby”) you get an “achievement buff”, like the living world’s achievements. You lose this buff if:
1) You change a trait, a skill or weapon/armor.
2) You change character.
3) You left the “raid lobby” (when you’re disconnected you’ll return in the raid lobby so you don’t lose the buff)
4) Additional check: if someone in your 10-player party lose the achievement buff, all the party lose it.
This will solve some community’s problems: those who want to have the freedom to change skills and traits, and those who want a real challenge, worthy of the name.
I don’t know if then the reward of such achievements are only APs or even titles and items… I just shared, in my opinion, a really good idea.
Build locking is only really interesting if the content also really requires specific roles.
I always find it funny how is WoodenPatatoes says something in his video’s, somebody will make a thread about it.
I think the main problem with build locking in GW2 is that if you want players to play more specialised roles for certain encounters and you want mechanics based around what the player can deal with to matter, you’d have to limit the scope of what mechanics you put into a single run.
For example, if you have a boss that is constantly applying boons to itself and gains a buff based on how many boons it has, you’d need a few people to rotate on the boon conversion / boon stripping. The next fight then boon stripping isn’t a mechanic you need to worry about. Suddenly all of the boon stripping skills and traits bought by the players focused on that mechanic – and there would have to be multiple players focused on that mechanic if the mechanic was something that was happening constantly – have reduced effectiveness.
The flip side of this is that players don’t have specialised roles and everyone takes a little of everything that’s required for all 3 bosses and rotates that way.
Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
I wholeheartedly support build-locking. Decisions in games should have consequences.
Server — Fort Aspenwood
Mains — Mathias of the Wood [Ranger]; Collaborator Bluatt [Engineer]
Alts — Necromancer, Warrior, Elementalist
Mains — Mathias of the Wood [Ranger]; Collaborator Bluatt [Engineer]
Alts — Necromancer, Warrior, Elementalist
I wholeheartedly support build-locking. Decisions in games should have consequences.
What about Mesmers though which are basicly tool boxes (they are weaker at most single aspects they can build for but have access to more aspects than other classes), removing their ability to mould themselves to each encounter makes them a worse choice to take.
Mesmers change utilities and weapons many times through a dungeon to maintain relevance, build locking punishes the class.
Build locking also causes issues when progressing and only works after the whole raid has been done with guides up. Imagine getting to the 3rd boss and theory crafting but being unable to test without resetting the whole thing – infuriating.
Build locking is a bad idea, real difficulty should be from the encounter NOT from preventing players to experiment or adapt.
What about Mesmers though which are basicly tool boxes (they are weaker at most single aspects they can build for but have access to more aspects than other classes), removing their ability to mould themselves to each encounter makes them a worse choice to take.
Mesmers change utilities and weapons many times through a dungeon to maintain relevance, build locking punishes the class.
Build locking also causes issues when progressing and only works after the whole raid has been done with guides up. Imagine getting to the 3rd boss and theory crafting but being unable to test without resetting the whole thing – infuriating.
Build locking is a bad idea, real difficulty should be from the encounter NOT from preventing players to experiment or adapt.
What about everyone else who isn’t a toolbox and don’t get invited ever cause you can do everything with 2 mezmers and 8 elementalists? That’s not really an argument.
Or maybe this time mesmers should mould themselves to be a little less specific and a bit more generic. Build locking punishes nobody. It just makes things interesting and fun.
Good, you can wait for the guides then, if you get so infuriated. I’m sure there will be other content for you to do untill the guides.
Build blocking is a great idea. You’re not build locked when you finish your raid attempt, so you’re free to experiment and adapt the next time around. Gives you time to think and make an informed decision instead of you blindly throwing abilities and traits at the boss wall and see what sticks.
In most games, Casuals are the majority. In GW2, Casuals are the game. Azumi.9572
What about Mesmers though which are basicly tool boxes (they are weaker at most single aspects they can build for but have access to more aspects than other classes), removing their ability to mould themselves to each encounter makes them a worse choice to take.
Mesmers change utilities and weapons many times through a dungeon to maintain relevance, build locking punishes the class.
Build locking also causes issues when progressing and only works after the whole raid has been done with guides up. Imagine getting to the 3rd boss and theory crafting but being unable to test without resetting the whole thing – infuriating.
Build locking is a bad idea, real difficulty should be from the encounter NOT from preventing players to experiment or adapt.
What about everyone else who isn’t a toolbox and don’t get invited ever cause you can do everything with 2 mezmers and 8 elementalists? That’s not really an argument.
Or maybe this time mesmers should mould themselves to be a little less specific and a bit more generic. Build locking punishes nobody. It just makes things interesting and fun.
Good, you can wait for the guides then, if you get so infuriated. I’m sure there will be other content for you to do untill the guides.
Build blocking is a great idea. You’re not build locked when you finish your raid attempt, so you’re free to experiment and adapt the next time around. Gives you time to think and make an informed decision instead of you blindly throwing abilities and traits at the boss wall and see what sticks.
Your counter argument to Mesmers being punished by build locking is without it some people might run 2 Mesmers.. Staggering.
Tell me what you do about getting to boss 3 and needing to reset the raid to try with a different skill – remember you have 10 people to keep sane when you ask to do this.
Build locking is a very bad idea, it will not be implemented and you haven’t said anything except “build locking isn’t for you” which is obvious – its also not for GW2.
What about Mesmers though which are basicly tool boxes (they are weaker at most single aspects they can build for but have access to more aspects than other classes), removing their ability to mould themselves to each encounter makes them a worse choice to take.
Mesmers change utilities and weapons many times through a dungeon to maintain relevance, build locking punishes the class.
Build locking also causes issues when progressing and only works after the whole raid has been done with guides up. Imagine getting to the 3rd boss and theory crafting but being unable to test without resetting the whole thing – infuriating.
Build locking is a bad idea, real difficulty should be from the encounter NOT from preventing players to experiment or adapt.
What about everyone else who isn’t a toolbox and don’t get invited ever cause you can do everything with 2 mezmers and 8 elementalists? That’s not really an argument.
Or maybe this time mesmers should mould themselves to be a little less specific and a bit more generic. Build locking punishes nobody. It just makes things interesting and fun.
Good, you can wait for the guides then, if you get so infuriated. I’m sure there will be other content for you to do untill the guides.
Build blocking is a great idea. You’re not build locked when you finish your raid attempt, so you’re free to experiment and adapt the next time around. Gives you time to think and make an informed decision instead of you blindly throwing abilities and traits at the boss wall and see what sticks.
And who says they would be “blindly throwing abilities and traits at the boss wall” to “see what sticks?”
Say bye-bye to build locking.
Build roles are what you do at a character level. Things like what weapons, utility skills, traits, and even armor you choose to bring to a fight. Some encounters are going to push you to try different weapons you rarely use, some are going to challenge you to select traits you haven’t considered equipping before, and some encounters may even require a member of your group to dust off that toughness gear to bulk up and tank some heavy hits to protect the condition-build players in the back. This is just a tiny sample of the types of build roles we want to push as a core part of Guild Wars 2 dynamic combat.
https://www.guildwars2.com/de/news/designing-challenging-content/
Say bye-bye to build locking.
Build roles are what you do at a character level. Things like what weapons, utility skills, traits, and even armor you choose to bring to a fight. Some encounters are going to push you to try different weapons you rarely use, some are going to challenge you to select traits you haven’t considered equipping before, and some encounters may even require a member of your group to dust off that toughness gear to bulk up and tank some heavy hits to protect the condition-build players in the back. This is just a tiny sample of the types of build roles we want to push as a core part of Guild Wars 2 dynamic combat.
https://www.guildwars2.com/de/news/designing-challenging-content/
yeah, unfortunately, time to start crafting a couple more of ascended armours to go along with all the other stuff we’ll have to carry around just to do a raid.
shame really but what can you do.
In most games, Casuals are the majority. In GW2, Casuals are the game. Azumi.9572
Say bye-bye to build locking.
Build roles are what you do at a character level. Things like what weapons, utility skills, traits, and even armor you choose to bring to a fight. Some encounters are going to push you to try different weapons you rarely use, some are going to challenge you to select traits you haven’t considered equipping before, and some encounters may even require a member of your group to dust off that toughness gear to bulk up and tank some heavy hits to protect the condition-build players in the back. This is just a tiny sample of the types of build roles we want to push as a core part of Guild Wars 2 dynamic combat.
https://www.guildwars2.com/de/news/designing-challenging-content/
yeah, unfortunately, time to start crafting a couple more of ascended armours to go along with all the other stuff we’ll have to carry around just to do a raid.
shame really but what can you do.
Oh it was a money saving thread all along xD