Guild Wars 2

Reading the recent post about outposts and adventures has me concerned for PvE. Open world by its very design will never be challenging. There is nothing stopping a giant horde of players autoattacking everything to death. Even if you add player accountability (something this community seems to be allergic too) to the fights it simply wont match the skill it takes and the satisfaction given from overcoming something in a small group. If they go this route many people who have been waiting for legitimate PvE content will be sorely disappointed.

well it could be like the marionette fight you had big groups that then got split into small groups

Linken.6345:

well it could be like the marionette fight you had big groups that then got split into small groups

This, and the Vinewraith event also.

I think they understand this concern and know zergs are an issue. Still it seems like they are taking steps to address it and based on the blog today it would seem that the new maps encourage play across all these outposts, to complete various events that may happen at the same time to better prepare for phase 2 of the map. AKA if we do standard zerg tactics we will be worse off in phase 2. May not be the case, zerg may still win, but it at least suggests that splitting people up will be a likely course.

Additionally masteries will split people based on capability. For example if you dont have the ability to remove the bark from Mordrem you may not be able to compete in an event but your skill in mushroom jumping might allow you to reach an event others can not having not purchased it. Of course at some point everyone theoretically will have all things, but it is likely we will have to choose our individual/small group approach to various events.

“These encounters will require greater skills and tactics to overcome, whether you’re adventuring through our jungle on your own or with a party. "

It seems the bosses may actually have a wide scaling range, even down to solo.

My main concern is whether we’ll see new/overhauled dungeon-style content. Open world can be fun, but it can’t come at the expense of organized, better-controlled small group content.

I’ll be waiting with ’bated breath to hear more about this.

I don’t think this OP ever participated in a Te’Quatl or Marionette fight at all. Those things could not and would not be “zerged down”. It’s do your part and don’t screw up; auto-attackers go home to their mommies in a body bag.

The getting there 2 hours before a open world event and then shuttling in your guild mates in just so you have a chance at hard content is no fun either.

Before GW2, I have never encountered a game that made me (the paying customer) wait around for 2 hours+ just to play some specific content. Can you imagine if shops said that, sorry you after wait 2 hours to buy that tv.

Stupid.

Content should revolve around the players and they should be able to trigger it whenever they want. Its okay with me if you after complete certain steps/events to trigger it but those should take no more than 20 mins or so.

Today everyone works different times. So games should revolve around people, not people revolving around the game.

Meglobob.8620:

The getting there 2 hours before a open world event and then shuttling in your guild mates in just so you have a chance at hard content is no fun either.

Before GW2, I have never encountered a game that made me (the paying customer) wait around for 2 hours+ just to play some specific content. Can you imagine if shops said that, sorry you after wait 2 hours to buy that tv.

Stupid.

Content should revolve around the players and they should be able to trigger it whenever they want. Its okay with me if you after complete certain steps/events to trigger it but those should take no more than 20 mins or so.

Today everyone works different times. So games should revolve around people, not people revolving around the game.

Err. Isnt that kind of defeating the purpose of hte whole (living world) and (dynamic event system) theme they have built the ENTIRE GAME on?

I wouldn’t worry too much. Devs generally don’t play their game anywhere near as much as their players and rarely have a good instinct for difficulty. Tequatl was supposed to be challenging. At the end of the day, the only challenge is to fill up the map.

Meglobob.8620:

The getting there 2 hours before a open world event and then shuttling in your guild mates in just so you have a chance at hard content is no fun either.

Before GW2, I have never encountered a game that made me (the paying customer) wait around for 2 hours+ just to play some specific content. Can you imagine if shops said that, sorry you after wait 2 hours to buy that tv.

Stupid.

Content should revolve around the players and they should be able to trigger it whenever they want. Its okay with me if you after complete certain steps/events to trigger it but those should take no more than 20 mins or so.

Today everyone works different times. So games should revolve around people, not people revolving around the game.

I guess you never played a game with 1 week lockouts on raids then.

Shadelang.3012:

Meglobob.8620:

The getting there 2 hours before a open world event and then shuttling in your guild mates in just so you have a chance at hard content is no fun either.

Before GW2, I have never encountered a game that made me (the paying customer) wait around for 2 hours+ just to play some specific content. Can you imagine if shops said that, sorry you after wait 2 hours to buy that tv.

Stupid.

Content should revolve around the players and they should be able to trigger it whenever they want. Its okay with me if you after complete certain steps/events to trigger it but those should take no more than 20 mins or so.

Today everyone works different times. So games should revolve around people, not people revolving around the game.

Err. Isnt that kind of defeating the purpose of hte whole (living world) and (dynamic event system) theme they have built the ENTIRE GAME on?

Not really, the only 2 events I was referring to was 3 headed wurm (mainly) and Tequatl (but that’s a lot easier). Everything else is okay and you can just turn up at the appropriate time, no waiting if you want to complete it.

This new harder content in the expansion, may be like 3 headed wurm but 10 times harder. So as its open world you (or some of your guild mates) will after get there a few hours early, to ferry in all the players you can rely on, in order to have a chance to complete it.

Vayne.8563:

Meglobob.8620:

The getting there 2 hours before a open world event and then shuttling in your guild mates in just so you have a chance at hard content is no fun either.

Before GW2, I have never encountered a game that made me (the paying customer) wait around for 2 hours+ just to play some specific content. Can you imagine if shops said that, sorry you after wait 2 hours to buy that tv.

Stupid.

Content should revolve around the players and they should be able to trigger it whenever they want. Its okay with me if you after complete certain steps/events to trigger it but those should take no more than 20 mins or so.

Today everyone works different times. So games should revolve around people, not people revolving around the game.

I guess you never played a game with 1 week lockouts on raids then.

Don’t know which games you played, but LotRO had raid lockout, yet we were free to pick our day and time to run it. No timer attached telling us that missing it at 6PM meant waiting for midnight for another chance, and no need to wait 30 minutes at the dungeon door just to avoid being locked out on the wrong megaserver.

cafard.8953:

Vayne.8563:

Meglobob.8620:

The getting there 2 hours before a open world event and then shuttling in your guild mates in just so you have a chance at hard content is no fun either.

Before GW2, I have never encountered a game that made me (the paying customer) wait around for 2 hours+ just to play some specific content. Can you imagine if shops said that, sorry you after wait 2 hours to buy that tv.

Stupid.

Content should revolve around the players and they should be able to trigger it whenever they want. Its okay with me if you after complete certain steps/events to trigger it but those should take no more than 20 mins or so.

Today everyone works different times. So games should revolve around people, not people revolving around the game.

I guess you never played a game with 1 week lockouts on raids then.

Don’t know which games you played, but LotRO had raid lockout, yet we were free to pick our day and time to run it. No timer attached telling us that missing it at 6PM meant waiting for midnight for another chance, and no need to wait for 2h at the dungeon door just to avoid being locked out on the wrong megaserver.

I remember raiding in games, where you had to farm rep before you raided to get the mats you needed to make the consumables you need to succeed. And sure you could raid any night you wanted. But if you beat that raid you had to wait around again for a week. If you didn’t get that single piece of armor that you needed to progress, your progress was off for days. You couldn’t go back in. You couldn’t do anything.

Waiting around for 40 minutes while organizing hard raids was pretty standard anyway.

Vayne.8563:

cafard.8953:

Vayne.8563:

Meglobob.8620:

The getting there 2 hours before a open world event and then shuttling in your guild mates in just so you have a chance at hard content is no fun either.

Before GW2, I have never encountered a game that made me (the paying customer) wait around for 2 hours+ just to play some specific content. Can you imagine if shops said that, sorry you after wait 2 hours to buy that tv.

Stupid.

Content should revolve around the players and they should be able to trigger it whenever they want. Its okay with me if you after complete certain steps/events to trigger it but those should take no more than 20 mins or so.

Today everyone works different times. So games should revolve around people, not people revolving around the game.

I guess you never played a game with 1 week lockouts on raids then.

Don’t know which games you played, but LotRO had raid lockout, yet we were free to pick our day and time to run it. No timer attached telling us that missing it at 6PM meant waiting for midnight for another chance, and no need to wait for 2h at the dungeon door just to avoid being locked out on the wrong megaserver.

I remember raiding in games, where you had to farm rep before you raided to get the mats you needed to make the consumables you need to succeed. And sure you could raid any night you wanted. But if you beat that raid you had to wait around again for a week. If you didn’t get that single piece of armor that you needed to progress, your progress was off for days. You couldn’t go back in. You couldn’t do anything.

Waiting around for 40 minutes while organizing hard raids was pretty standard anyway.

Point taken on the wait for repeat after a win.

In regards to the waiting/organising, i don’t find it comparable personally. If there was any preparing involved then fine, but at the moment big events are very very straightforward, meaning that it’s pretty much just waiting there just to avoid logging on to an empty map.

Meglobob.8620:

Can you imagine if shops said that, sorry you after wait 2 hours to buy that tv.

Maybe not a TV, but I do know some stores will say, “We don’t currently have it in stock, but we’ll deliver it to you in 5-7 business days” or something similar like that.

Content should revolve around the players and they should be able to trigger it whenever they want.

Isn’t there a guild upgrade that’ll let you start world events like Tequatl and the Jungle Worm whenever you want? Sounds to me like there’s a mechanic for just what you wanted.

I realize that many here are against raiding but truth is, the lack of it is what’s holding this game back. And, the developers are fighting that all the way to the games grave.

PvE content will never be challenging. Sure the content is challenging at first. After a couple tries you learn the mechanics and you know what you have to bring to win.

Lets take the Liadri fight for instance. A couple of one hit death mechanics. Once you learn them and their patterns you don’t get hit by them. Liadri had very high toughness but low vitality. Easiest way to beat her was fire and forget condi durations.

Modern PvE content will never be challenging because of patterns and lack of variations to those patterns. The last boss in Season 2 living story had easy patterns. The only reason why people had a tough time on the last boss is because of lack of comprehension or by being overwhelmed by simple mechanics that were just different than what they were used to.

The only games that actually have challenging PvE content are old 2d fighting games because they use lots of RNG commands. Mortal Kombat 1, 2, 3, Street Fighter etc.

Gw2 is limited because of lack of moves the enemy can do. Teq: splash, fear, claw slam that’s it. If Anet increased the number of actions the enemy can do in PvE the game would be a lot harder and probably would scare off casual players who just want to press 1.

Well, if it’s like a Vinewrath, then i don’t know since when VW can be considered a challenge. Marionette was way better in that regard, due to a none zerg phase in it, where individual skill of players who went in actually mattered. That was the beauty of Marionette fight. VW is a faceroll, even Tequatl have more interesting design and bigger chance to fail if someone kittens up.

Mike Flavaz.2635:

I realize that many here are against raiding but truth is, the lack of it is what’s holding this game back. And, the developers are fighting that all the way to the games grave.

I dont think it is holding the game back. There has been plenty of released research and statements by MMO companies who have abandoned raids because the vast majority of players simply don’t play them.

I personally don’t believe GW2 as it is right now, is missing out not having them.

wasted.6817:

Marionette was way better in that regard, due to a none zerg phase in it, where individual skill of players who went in actually mattered. That was the beauty of Marionette fight.

Agreed. I found the premise ludicrous, but the Marionette fight design/gameplay was probably the best this game has seen.

Randulf.7614:

Mike Flavaz.2635:

I realize that many here are against raiding but truth is, the lack of it is what’s holding this game back. And, the developers are fighting that all the way to the games grave.

I dont think it is holding the game back. There has been plenty of released research and statements by MMO companies who have abandoned raids because the vast majority of players simply don’t play them.

I personally don’t believe GW2 as it is right now, is missing out not having them.

yea I dunno. Research or not…GW2 is not the top MMO right now and without any research myself, I would take a jump and say it is not in the top 3 as far as players playing the game. And I’m betting the top 3 mmo’s do infact have raiding. So…

As far as GW2 avoiding raiding…..I would love to have something new and exciting but what brings masses to mmos? And what keeps them playing? Is it the endgame? The immersion? The rewards? Sandbox elements? Pvp? Or is it a great harmony between all?

I think immersion pulls people in. Character progression keeps them pushing through to level cap. And Endgame, Sandbox, PvP and Rewards keep them playing long after.

Problem where I stand is Gw2 doesn’t have much end game and alot of pvp variety at the moment. Gw2 also doesn’t really have any worthwhile rewards to speak of. I was essentially maxed geared just acouple days after hitting level cap(forgetting Legionaries of course.) Then what? There’s not really any true open world pvp, so no way to create any sandbox chaos. There’s no challenging group content. And, the pvp just got old.

That being said. I’m a supporter of GW2. I just wish ANet would figure out this equation in their own way and in a way that makes sense with their game. There’s alot of talk of progression for HoT, but all I really see is more questing.

Wow will always be the top MMO. Eve the 2nd. Beyond that, in the West GW2 is def up there (no idea where tho, but it is one of the MMO biggies without a doubt). And with the huge influx of players returning or new since announcement (confirmed by the devs as well), its playerbase is pretty solid right now

As for top games having raids, yes they do, but thats because they followed a classic formula of believing they should be in the game. Doesn’t mean such traditional thinking translated in people playing them.

I’m not saying it shouldn’t have them. There was some great discussion in the CDI before it was unfairly shut down due to reasons which weren’t at all valid (although the contributions were only coming through a handful of players) which demonstarted ways to add raids to the game, some of which were really interesting. What I am saying is that they are an extra and not having them isn’t going to do much damage to the game that I can see.

Oh I agree man. I don’t need raids. But this is an MMO. And there should be some elements that keep people playing. Raids keep those who enjoy them playing because they are (A.) Challenging. (B.) Rewarding(with actual rewards as well as victory) and most importantly (C.) require group coordination, planning and communication. This in turn bonds those who are raiding together. Basically, making these encounters fun.

There’s no gear treadmill in GW2. I’m always torn on this. I think it’s a great move and then I think it’s what is holding the game back. Never the less, they’ve done things their way, removing the treadmill and the so called “trinity.” Gratz. But this needs to be replaced with something that’s as rewarding, challenging, and makes you want more.

cafard.8953:

Vayne.8563:

cafard.8953:

Vayne.8563:

Meglobob.8620:

The getting there 2 hours before a open world event and then shuttling in your guild mates in just so you have a chance at hard content is no fun either.

Before GW2, I have never encountered a game that made me (the paying customer) wait around for 2 hours+ just to play some specific content. Can you imagine if shops said that, sorry you after wait 2 hours to buy that tv.

Stupid.

Content should revolve around the players and they should be able to trigger it whenever they want. Its okay with me if you after complete certain steps/events to trigger it but those should take no more than 20 mins or so.

Today everyone works different times. So games should revolve around people, not people revolving around the game.

I guess you never played a game with 1 week lockouts on raids then.

Don’t know which games you played, but LotRO had raid lockout, yet we were free to pick our day and time to run it. No timer attached telling us that missing it at 6PM meant waiting for midnight for another chance, and no need to wait for 2h at the dungeon door just to avoid being locked out on the wrong megaserver.

I remember raiding in games, where you had to farm rep before you raided to get the mats you needed to make the consumables you need to succeed. And sure you could raid any night you wanted. But if you beat that raid you had to wait around again for a week. If you didn’t get that single piece of armor that you needed to progress, your progress was off for days. You couldn’t go back in. You couldn’t do anything.

Waiting around for 40 minutes while organizing hard raids was pretty standard anyway.

Point taken on the wait for repeat after a win.

In regards to the waiting/organising, i don’t find it comparable personally. If there was any preparing involved then fine, but at the moment big events are very very straightforward, meaning that it’s pretty much just waiting there just to avoid logging on to an empty map.

With the exception of the Triple Threat, I get in ten minutes before Teq and still do him. I came to the Karka Queen yesterday two minutes after the hour and still did it with ease.

Lazaar.9123:

“These encounters will require greater skills and tactics to overcome, whether you’re adventuring through our jungle on your own or with a party. "

It seems the bosses may actually have a wide scaling range, even down to solo.

THIS would be kittening AWESOME!

Maybe it has to do with this. Building a Better Centaur: AI at Massive Scale

“Today’s MMOs often have hundreds of types of agents in their game world – each with potentially dozens of actions they can take. Hand crafting the AI for every agent can be a time-consuming process fraught with brittle, unpredictable results. Often, the only way to achieve the breadth of characters is to sacrifice the depth of behaviors that they can take. This session will show a new architecture that combines a modular, utility-based AI system and a powerful influence map engine. With it, agents are not only far more intelligent than prior iterations, but use significantly less processing time. This allows us to put not only smarter creatures in the world, but more of them as well. We will also show the tools that allow designers to create unique, expressive behaviors for hundreds of character types in a fraction of the time that it previously took – often creating new, unique character behavior packages in minutes rather than hours!”

Takeaway
“The attendee will learn how the architecture was created atop ArenaNet’s Guild Wars 2, and leave with ideas on how to craft their own system that allows robust, dynamic and varied behavior in agents, but still offers quick, flexible iteration.”

Mike Flavaz.2635:

I realize that many here are against raiding but truth is, the lack of it is what’s holding this game back. And, the developers are fighting that all the way to the games grave.

Yes because CLEARLY this game -GW2- is going to the grave while it’kittenting up it’s 3 year Anniversary and releasing an expansion. That is a 100% surefire indicator that this game is dying…..

cafard.8953:

wasted.6817:

Marionette was way better in that regard, due to a none zerg phase in it, where individual skill of players who went in actually mattered. That was the beauty of Marionette fight.

Agreed. I found the premise ludicrous, but the Marionette fight design/gameplay was probably the best this game has seen.

Yeah, but it’s incredibly frustrating when a player (or group of players) is held back because some random players who don’t understand or just can’t handle the content happen to be in the same map. Happened to me during the Marionette fight; every time we got down our “boss” but then watched helpless while other groups failed spectacularly. Fun sure but increasingly frustrating.

I hope that the challenge part won’t be finding a map with players that know the fight like in previous attempts to make challenging content.

And also that limitations in the games systems won’t be adding to the “challenge” (e.g. that HoT will allow condition specs to contribute as much as power specs can).