Guild Wars 2

Yes, Scenario 1) no one cares about your game play so they’re not going to rez you…you should way point. Scenario 2) golden rule, if you expect someone to care enough about your game play experience to rez you, you should care enough about their experience to not make them rez you…you should way point.

If you die at a world boss it is always faster and easier to just wp and run back than just lying on the ground being useless, upscaling the event and endangering other people who will try to rez you.
Never saw any problems with rezing in open world though. Everyone seems friendly and happy to rez if you fell from a vista or died from the mobs.

Firebird Gomer.9563:

I imagine that the statement “we don’t rez the dead” is not the plan the Dev’s have for reviving people. I remember when for the first year you could guarantee people would rez you Dead or Downed in the middle of a fight. Certain groups and fights forced this mentality into the norm.

You want to revert the mentality back to where everyone was friendly and didn’t lose their temper because their so called “precious time” is supposedly being wasted helping another human being? Well as several others have said a buff isn’t going to do any good, in fact it might just make the problem worse. Changing how a event scales with player death is a step in the right direction, but not even a baby step in that direction more like a tiptoe or poke in that direction.

When Guild Wars 2 first came out acquiring loot was very consistent, in my opinion anyways, regardless if you did particularly great at an event or failed the event. Sure there may have been a few events that gave more money and karma if one got a gold on it instead of a bronze, but it wasn’t anything that would cause certain ‘components’ of this ‘community’ to get angry over.

Now enter the Living Story and its episodic content. Now I didn’t play the first part, my graphics card and the game client were how should I say, not on speaking terms with one another until Halloween, so I can’t say if this was present for those portions of the living story. However I was present during the Queen’s Jubilee, where I did note this problem. There are two ‘reasons’ that were given by those guilty of this behavior. The first was what been already said here their ‘time was precious’ and that if you were truly a considerate person would just waypoint and not bother them as they try to acquire as much gold as possible. The second, which to me is slightly bit more understandable than the previous, was that they were trying to acquire the minipet offered by completing the event and there was only a small window of opportunity to acquire it.

And here is where we come to what I believe is the actual cause for the problem, either intentionally or unintentionally the developers made loot acquisition a top priority. As a result the ‘community’ exhibits traits of what some have called the “WoW-factor” or “Wow-mentality”, where they adopt an ‘us versus them’ mentality.

It similar to what we see in pvp aspect of the ‘community’ in the whole “casuals versus supposedly hardcore” players argument. Fortunately solving the "don’t resurrect dead players’ problem is much easier than the mess pvp aspect of gaming ‘communities’ generate.

Remove the tier reward system and just give a static reward for completing world events. This would be less stressful for players, particular those who dare step up to try leading the horde of players doing the world event. These individuals can focus on leading their guild or party, since there no longer a ‘need’ to acquire the best possible outcome other than for bragging rights. Now it won’t instantly revert the ‘community’ to how it supposedly was back in the first year, but it would encourage it to develop towards that goal.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

And here is where we come to what I believe is the actual cause for the problem, either intentionally or unintentionally the developers made loot acquisition a top priority. As a result the ‘community’ exhibits traits of what some have called the “WoW-factor” or “Wow-mentality”, where they adopt an ‘us versus them’ mentality.

You’re way over-analyzing this. Yes, time and loot are major reasons this mentality is dominant. But the fact is, if you’re dead at, let’s say Tequatl, it will take you MAYBE 30 seconds to WP and run back. Sure, rezzing someone is helping them, in a way, but you vastly overestimate the value of that help, as they’re perfectly able to help themselves at very little cost. In fact, the cost is very little for either solution, as none of this is important in the slightest. It’s just a video game.

Players have simply tended toward the path of least resistance, as does all nature. That’s evolution. The only way to change the path of an electric current to the ground is to alter which path is the shortest, and so it is with herd mentality.

I’ve never had a problem getting ressed. Only if I died in a really inconvenient place or time. Maybe you died in a really inconvenient place or time where other players feel they might die trying to res you. because of a boss they’re fighting.

Either that or you’re online at a weird time when people who don’t understand how the game works are playing.

There HAS to be downsides to getting defeated, so staying up gets rewarded.

In the middle of a complex fight, trying to revive defeated players will probably get you also defeated. And so we get from that:

• Staying healthy is important.
• Reviving downed players is good.
• Getting defeated is bad.

If being defeated was inconsequential, we could just as well set everyone with a mere 30s timer after which they respawn in place, or just make everyone invincible or something.

There has to be a cost for defeat to make it relevant.

The current cost is the walk of shame: Waypoint cost, and having to come back.

Maybe Anet should just implement a system that automatically way points dead people from world boss event areas after they have been fully dead for kitten -1min (timer stops while someone is attempting to revive you) to the closest uncontested way point at no cost. Because after a minute has passed of you watching other people struggle to complete an unnecessarily up leveled boss it should be clear that you aren’t getting revived. This would remove afkers and lazy people who just don’t want to take the walk of shame. Then people cant complain about people not rezzing you when your fully dead.

Crey.5263:

Maybe Anet should just implement a system that automatically way points dead people from world boss event areas after they have been fully dead for kitten -1min (timer stops while someone is attempting to revive you) to the closest uncontested way point at no cost. Because after a minute has passed of you watching other people struggle to complete an unnecessarily up leveled boss it should be clear that you aren’t getting revived. This would remove afkers and lazy people who just don’t want to take the walk of shame. Then people cant complain about people not rezzing you when your fully dead.

I think they should disable waypointing in events unless it was back to a major city or to 1 “safe point” on the particular map you’re on.

The devs did good limiting waypoint zerging in dungeons, they just need to take it a step further for open world to make the events more challenging, one of which being you shouldn’t have what amounts to unlimited continues, but instead the support of your allies.

Andred.1087:

You’re way over-analyzing this.

In your opinion. However I wasn’t weighing in on the whole “us versus them” mentality of this argument. I was weighing in on the original poster’s idea. As for my opinion on the whole argument, its monumentally stupid. It boils down to sounding like this “If you were really a considered person you would waypoint and run back so I don’t have to sacrifice my time to resurrect your character, it’s only x amount of seconds of your time which is nothing compared to the x amount of time I would have to give up helping you.” “Well if you were a truly considerable person that time wouldn’t matter because you helped another human being.” Notice the circular and repetitive pattern of the argument?

Let’s not forget that this whole post was started simply because someone didn’t res OP when they felt they deserved to be ressed.

I died in the middle of a jumping puzzle last night. One of those stone heads that shoots flames. I think I’m gonna start a thread to complain about all the people doing the JP that ran by and didn’t stand in the middle of the cone of flame I died in and res me so I wouldn’t have to waypoint back.

Mo Mo.1947:

Let’s not forget that this whole post was started simply because someone didn’t res OP when they felt they deserved to be ressed.

I died in the middle of a jumping puzzle last night. One of those stone heads that shoots flames. I think I’m gonna start a thread to complain about all the people doing the JP that ran by and didn’t stand in the middle of the cone of flame I died in and res me so I wouldn’t have to waypoint back.

There been threads made by people complaining about people asking to be resurrected during the Queen’s Jubilee. I think it fair that their opposition may make similar threads. Who knows maybe the threads will actually be useful and present ideas to the developers.

I don’t believe in rewarding lazy people.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Andred.1087:

You’re way over-analyzing this.

In your opinion. However I wasn’t weighing in on the whole “us versus them” mentality of this argument. I was weighing in on the original poster’s idea. As for my opinion on the whole argument, its monumentally stupid. It boils down to sounding like this “If you were really a considered person you would waypoint and run back so I don’t have to sacrifice my time to resurrect your character, it’s only x amount of seconds of your time which is nothing compared to the x amount of time I would have to give up helping you.” “Well if you were a truly considerable person that time wouldn’t matter because you helped another human being.” Notice the circular and repetitive pattern of the argument?

based on the axiom that helping someone is a good thing, regardless of his actions or willfully and unnecessarily being a liability to you. I reject your axiom and collectivist weltanschauung.

Algreg.3629:

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Andred.1087:

You’re way over-analyzing this.

In your opinion. However I wasn’t weighing in on the whole “us versus them” mentality of this argument. I was weighing in on the original poster’s idea. As for my opinion on the whole argument, its monumentally stupid. It boils down to sounding like this “If you were really a considered person you would waypoint and run back so I don’t have to sacrifice my time to resurrect your character, it’s only x amount of seconds of your time which is nothing compared to the x amount of time I would have to give up helping you.” “Well if you were a truly considerable person that time wouldn’t matter because you helped another human being.” Notice the circular and repetitive pattern of the argument?

based on the axiom that helping someone is a good thing, regardless of his actions or willfully and unnecessarily being a liability to you. I reject your axiom and collectivist weltanschauung.

Thank you for teaching me a new word, even if it’s german. I don’t think I will ever be able to pronounce it.

It’s faster to WP than to wait for people to rez you.
If you’re too lazy to run back, then I’m too lazy to help you. If you die in a JP or outside of an event I’ll probly rez. But in a super chaotic event where I will probably die if I try to rez you, or be forced to keep coming back and spend two minutes rezzing you in small bursts, it’s not worth it.

People didn’t just decide to stop rezzing for the hell of it…

Its because the timed events (like vw and breach) will fail if they stop to rez, and/or the dead people don’t wp.

Ralanost.8913:

Algreg.3629:

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Andred.1087:

You’re way over-analyzing this.

In your opinion. However I wasn’t weighing in on the whole “us versus them” mentality of this argument. I was weighing in on the original poster’s idea. As for my opinion on the whole argument, its monumentally stupid. It boils down to sounding like this “If you were really a considered person you would waypoint and run back so I don’t have to sacrifice my time to resurrect your character, it’s only x amount of seconds of your time which is nothing compared to the x amount of time I would have to give up helping you.” “Well if you were a truly considerable person that time wouldn’t matter because you helped another human being.” Notice the circular and repetitive pattern of the argument?

based on the axiom that helping someone is a good thing, regardless of his actions or willfully and unnecessarily being a liability to you. I reject your axiom and collectivist weltanschauung.

Thank you for teaching me a new word, even if it’s german. I don’t think I will ever be able to pronounce it.

oh, I was pretty sure it being one of those cute few words that made it into the english language, like Kindergarden and Weltschmerz. Gonna have to check this

Algreg.3629:

Ralanost.8913:

Algreg.3629:

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Andred.1087:

You’re way over-analyzing this.

In your opinion. However I wasn’t weighing in on the whole “us versus them” mentality of this argument. I was weighing in on the original poster’s idea. As for my opinion on the whole argument, its monumentally stupid. It boils down to sounding like this “If you were really a considered person you would waypoint and run back so I don’t have to sacrifice my time to resurrect your character, it’s only x amount of seconds of your time which is nothing compared to the x amount of time I would have to give up helping you.” “Well if you were a truly considerable person that time wouldn’t matter because you helped another human being.” Notice the circular and repetitive pattern of the argument?

based on the axiom that helping someone is a good thing, regardless of his actions or willfully and unnecessarily being a liability to you. I reject your axiom and collectivist weltanschauung.

Thank you for teaching me a new word, even if it’s german. I don’t think I will ever be able to pronounce it.

oh, I was pretty sure it being one of those cute few words that made it into the english language, like Kindergarden and Weltschmerz. Gonna have to check this

Never heard of Weltschmerz either.

Or Fussbodenschleifmaschinenverleih.

I rez the dead if they decide not to wp as they scale the boss up.

Joey.2769:

I rez the dead if they decide not to wp as they scale the boss up.

This is, and I will continue to refute this, been proven false by red posts on the various threads that have complained about leechers and dead characters. Dead characters will not scale events.

The don’t-rez argument still has weight, since resurrecting wastes time spent not doing dps, and it threatens those who try to revive.

I wish the talents related to resurrecting characters were better. Granting a wee bit of a boon and a weeee bit (10%?, really? try 25%) resurrection speed is pretty slack. Those traits don’t make up for the opportunity cost of actually helping someone up in combat.

Or include traits that give a character a temporary buff if someone else is defeated around them. It’d make for a bit more counterplay in PvP/WvW, and could help on megabosses.

1. The HP scale of a boss is determined by the highest number of active players in the boss’s history.

If someone lies dead they don’t do any harm re: scaling as they have ALREADY scaled the boss by joining in the first place. They do block revival of downed players, however, which can lead to more people becoming dead. This does, however, mean that if you are in an area where no other player would die, you can safely stay there until the rotation ends to be resurrected/teleported out without having any negative effects on the raid whatsoever.

1.1 The problem is not so much lying dead, but being dead in the first place. Use something that you can survive in. If you can’t survive in zerker/assassin, use Soldier or Knight – it’s better for you to be suboptimal than a liability. It is better for you to be optimal of course, but if you cannot be, forcing it and dying is much, much worse than being alive and somewhat less optimal.

2. If people run to a boss to ‘help’ with it, they enter the HP scaling zone before they reach attack range. In situations of short timers, ‘helping’ a boss can directly cause it to fail as it can add more HP to the boss than the players trying to ‘help’ will ever remove. This is why Breach commanders at the 1 minute mark generally tell people not to attempt to ‘help’ with bosses yet to be killed – unless that Breach has half the zerg wiping or similar.

3. Event credit does not rely on proximity to the boss, but the actions you have performed. If you’ve already died, you have already been factored into the boss HP, so return and do some good as you are no longer able to affect its scale no matter what you do. Conversely if a boss is at low health and the timer is also low, do not enter the boss’s area as you will be directly sabotaging the efforts of others.

4. Vinewrath vines close after one rotation. That rotation is determined by its instakill move – the lasers at the troll, the darkness stun at the thrasher, and the poison floor at the teragriff. If you die and can get in before that rotation finishes, you can rejoin – else, you will be stuck outside a vine wall. But if you can die and rejoin before one rotation even finishes, you have died WAY too fast, and see point 1.1.

Teq and Vinewrath commanders who know what they’re doing ask people to waypoint because they block revival of downed, not because of the completely unaffected HP scale. The Teq coms ask for people to return because the scale has already been set, but their contribution has not yet been maxed. VW coms do not generally expect people to be able to return before the vine wall closes.

5. Stop perpetuating myths about HP scaling. If you do not know about something, adding false information is worse than not saying anything at all, because people have no idea what is true or false without doing tests, and most people are too lazy to do their own tests. We know about HP scaling behaviour because people used to use a now-banned method of checking boss HP – and this information comes from their input on how the HP fluctuated as people joined, died, and/or rejoined.

P.S. With a little thought you can quite easily derive why it must work this way, even though we already know that it does from more empirical means. If leaving a boss caused its HP scale to drop, no boss will ever be failed as the remaining alive players would get an easier and easier job. Alternatively, if players joining (who had not previously dealt any damage to the boss) did not scale it up, a zerg could instantly kill a world boss if it was scaled for 5 players, and a 40-man zerg enters the fight after it starts.

P.P.S. What is true is determined by looking at the data collected on something, not by the number of people who believe it to be true. The no-AoE fallacy continues to sabotage Breach after Breach on the copper husk, even though it is very easy to determine that it is false.

And lastly @ OP, in a raid that has a potential to fail, people who refuse to sabotage event completion rates by resurrecting the dead are being helpful as raid success gives everyone, including the dead, rewards. If a raid fails because people are trying to ‘feel’ helpful, nobody gets the rewards, and everyone involved in the resurrection, in addition to the dead themselves, are in fact sabotaging everyone in the raid.

Or in other words, doing what you feel is right does not mean you are doing what is right.

Tl;dr In the middle of a fight:

Dying = Bad; Lying dead = Sometimes bad, sometimes no effect; Joining last-minute = usually bad, sometimes helpful; Ressing dead = Always bad; Ressing downed = Good if they can be saved, bad if they cannot.

Algreg.3629:

based on the axiom that helping someone is a good thing, regardless of his actions or willfully and unnecessarily being a liability to you. I reject your axiom and collectivist weltanschauung.

There are two flaws in your statement concerning me, I am not stating my world view and I am not a collectivist. It is my opinion that the argument about helping in, as Andred so keenly put it, a video game to be monumentally stupid. I find no issue with one expecting another human being to help them in a real life situation, however video games trend to bring the more negative aspects of a person’s personality to the forefront. This is clearly seen in every mmo “community” in varying degrees, with the usual most vocal component being the so called “hardcore” players versus so called “casual” players. To expect every player within a multiple player game to be caring, courtesy, and helpful is deceiving oneself. Yes the terms of service does enforce politeness to a certain degree, but there is some leeway on what is considered acceptable.

Those who don’t want to resurrect other players don’t, there is no need or means to justify yourself in this matter. Just accept that the other player may view you as selfish, just as that other player should just accept you may view them as lazy. If both sides actually cared about the “community” they would simply agree to disagree. Any argument presented will devolve into a repetitive cycle of rehashed points and petty insults.

On the funny tiny side discussion, this here are actually words, that made it from German into official English Words:

• Kindergarten
• Rucksack
• Hamburger
• Berliner
• Zweiha(ä)nder
• Doppelga(ä)nger
• Angst
• Blitzkrieg
• Mannschaft
• Gesundheit
• Poltergeist
• Zeitgeist
• Zeppelin
• Gestalt
• Glockenspiel
• Luftballons
• Hinterland
• Sauerkraut
• Waldsterben
• Weltanschauung
• Schadenfreude

Alot of these words have found into the English language, because there exists no English equivalent, so they borrowed out these words just from German and over time, they got commonly used naturally also in English…

its the same thing of language evolution, like we borrow also alot of English Words and take them into the common used German Language ove,r because there simply exists no german equivalent for it, or a German equivalent would be a much much longer word and the Engish word compared to it just sounds pronounced alot shorter, cooler, more modern and is easier to memorize for people xD

Mostly to be find in technological aspects of life… Blue Tooth for example xD..in german it would sound just stupid, if we would call that technology “blauer Zahn” and it would be totally out of context, if you would see two germans with they Iphones in their hands talking about blue tooths in their mouths lol

Language Evolution is funny

Just wanted to mention that, also if I know, its offtopic, but I couldn’t resist, I’m sorry

Not really. Some of these have English equivalents, it’s just that the German version is so much better known that it makes more sense to co-opt that version than to use the lesser-known English version.

For instance, few people know what epicaricacy means. So few that the GW2 forum interface I’m using thinks that it’s a spelling error. Use its German equivalent on your list and most native English/German speakers will know what you are talking about.

Now back to topic…

Orpheal.8263:

Just wanted to mention that, also if I know, its offtopic, but I couldn’t resist, I’m sorry

An informative distraction, at least.

On topic: I’ll rez you if I see you KO’d somewhere.

my 2 cents~

I rez downed players in WvW & PvE
I rez dead players in WvW
I never rez dead players in PvE while in combat.

if you fully died while in a big fight, you should WP and run back.
if you’re down you can and should be rezzed.

this let’s change blah blah mentality is just you being lazy !
get off your behind and WP already !

If you die, try and remember how you died. And try not to die again. It’s sometimes disappointing to not get ressed in the middle of a big event.

But if you find this happening to you all the time, then you’re just dying all the time. Instead of asking ANet to make some policy that makes people res you, ask people how you can avoid dying all the time…

Rauderi.8706:

I wish the talents related to resurrecting characters were better. Granting a wee bit of a boon and a weeee bit (10%?, really? try 25%) resurrection speed is pretty slack. Those traits don’t make up for the opportunity cost of actually helping someone up in combat.

That’s the ticket! Where others see a notion of wasted time or extreme risk, I see an opportunity to specialize builds or grant expanded versatility. Another avenue to make rezzing more rewarding is to just make it possible to be good at it! Make some more runes to add to builds that improve rezzing, buff the current ones like runes of mercy, ect. Like what if one of the bonuses of the rune was also to increase up to 5 allies’ rez speed by 10% as well as you own by 15%. A couple of users of that rune would pick people up fast if a random extra helps out (random guy will rez 20% faster while the 2 users of this rune would rez 25% faster). Would be cool if there was a rune that summoned a sand storm around the guy you’re rezzing. How about a consumable that converts power into healing power AND improves rez speed scaled by your healing power. . . or heck, just make healing power affect rez speed.

Or include traits that give a character a temporary buff if someone else is defeated around them. It’d make for a bit more counterplay in PvP/WvW, and could help on megabosses.

I would have sworn this was already the case.

On top of that, I think maybe they could introduce “Spirit Skills” usable in PvE only and only one you reach a certain level. They could be long recharge skills (like 10+ min) that one can use once fully dead. They’d be rather passive like ally condi cleanses to boons to help out your friends elle they fight or to help them bring you back.

I don’t understand why it’s such an issue. I’ve been doing Silverwastes a lot recently and I’m frequently on both sides of the situation.

I’m the one telling people before the Breach (and sometimes again before the Vinewraith) that if you die you should waypoint and run back, and reassuring them that they’ll still get the exact same reward no matter where they are on the map, but without people up and fighting that will be nothing for anyone.

But I’m not the best player, not by a long shot. I often die myself during these events. It’s annoying, especially if it was a stupid mistake that got me killed, but using the waypoint and running back really doesn’t take long and the cost is completely negligible compared to what you’ll get for doing the event.

That’s how I know you get the same rewards, I’ve been all over the map, even right back in the Pact camp when a boss fight ended, or even still loading back in, and I’ve always gotten my reward. (If you disconnect you may not, but that’s an entirely different issue.) In fact during the Vinewraith fight you don’t even have to have entered the boss area, simply fighting outside, even in a completely different lane is enough.

I should say that 99% of the time I will resurrect dead people, I’ll even run across the map, completely out of my way to do it. But a timed boss fight requiring large numbers of people fighting is very different to general PvE and the time taken to resurrect someone just isn’t worth it. Downed players, sure, but not when they’re completely dead.

In my experience it’s also less frustrating to simply use the waypoint too, rather than lying there unable to contribute anything hoping someone will take the time out of actually doing the event to resurrect me.