Guild Wars 2

again are they good or evil?

lordkrall.7241:

Stories evolve. Or do you really want them to only ever release stuff that was mentioned in the very first installation of a series?

A change or new direction is not necessarily an evolution…

That said, I actually don’t really want them dealing with the Mursaat since I can’t see it being done well, so on that front, this doesn’t bother me.

I do wish the world would feel more like the same world we saw before though and that a lot of that stuff would carry forward as more than an afterthought. If you’re going to make a sequel of this type, either carry on or embrace the nostalgia. As it stands, I feel GW2 would have been better off as either an entirely unrelated game or an AU reboot.

Swizzle.7982:

I mean most lore is from manuals, short stories written by the writers or blog posts rather than the actual games, If we ignore those then the gw universe has pretty much no lore.

This is the stupidest and most exaggerated thing I’ve heard on these forums. I’ve been cataloging the lore for about a year now, from ambient dialogue, Npc conversations, and event dialogue, and this statement is not true.

Almost every piece of lore giving in blog posts and out of the game, has been told in the game one way or another. The difference is that blog posts are more approachable to most that can’t be bothered talking to npcs and listening around them, if it doesn’t give them a shiny new item or achievement.

THEN, not to mention that there are so many things talked about in game that are never given outside of the game. Charr theory of used electricity as a power source? only in game. Meta-Rivulets? in game. Centaur speeches before a battle? in game. Customs of informing of the death of a norn? in game. Norn mourning ballads? in game. Printing Presses? in game. Myth of a three-tailed devourer? in game.

The main thing that people come up with this statement, is some think the above lore does not matter. Dragons, Mursaat, Forgotten, Six Gods. They matter and without that they “then the gw universe has pretty much no lore.” as you put it. It is just false. Without my above examples the world would feel flat. Who cares about world ending dragons without lore that tells us how the races anxiety and stress are effected.

To be Honest I think the Rage, some People show here is because these PEople wanted the Exalted to be Mursaat and now we see a bit Lore twisting here.

First of all. The Exalted don’t look like Mursaat. Mursaat are Beings made of Flesh, Exalted are made of Magic.
The City Saul found could’ve been anywhere. The Article about Saul says that he found the City in a dense Forest. Nowhere in the Article stands the Term Jungle. For what we know it could be the Woodland Cascades North of Kryta.
Also the City of Tarir is in a Jungle and the Exalted were dormant at the Time of GW1 or even nonexistent ( since the Article said roughly 300 Years ago and this could mean somewhere between 349 and 250 Years ). Now try to find a City in a Jungle, you could literally walk past a City in the Jungle without knowing that you were nearly in the City you walked past. Also Maguuma was stated to be one of the deadliest Regions of Tyria ( you know, like Australia but with more Jungle ), try to fully explore something like that. And look back at GW1, we never went really deep into the Jungle.

Knighthonor.4061:

again are they good or evil?

The exalted are good

Well… mursaat where sorta kittens…with that slight issue with kryta and that bloodstone shenanigans and white mantle stuff, but then again we dunno if the exalted are not “just” some “sub race” of mursaat. Sure glint made em and stuff.. but who knows… maybe its basically the same deal. I mean alone from the metal mask the exalted are pretty darn close to a mursaat. Also we do know that the thieves that withdrew from the fortress where now the entrance into the wastes is that they do got to do with the white mantle…also technically the bloodstone is in the jungle too somewhere so there is a pretty darn good chance we might get some mursaat related story or events too…maybe mursaat vs exalted? Wouldnt sound too stupid imo

Basaltface.2786:

I mean alone from the metal mask the exalted are pretty darn close to a mursaat.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Enchanted_armor

Must say I’m very disappointed we aren’t getting Mursaat. I mean we know they have a city in the jungle somewhere. They are known for wearing gold armor. They have wing-like appendages on their back. It just seemed like these Exalted would either be a new form of Mursaat or some kind of Mursaat construct. Not to mention we’ve been getting so many White Mantle hints so far in the game.

I just find the idea of a wary alliance with the Mursaat far more interesting than an alliance with these Forgotten constructs that seem like loyal do-gooders.

xarallei.4279:

Must say I’m very disappointed we aren’t getting Mursaat. I mean we know they have a city in the jungle somewhere. They are known for wearing gold armor. They have wing-like appendages on their back. It just seemed like these Exalted would either be a new form of Mursaat or some kind of Mursaat construct. Not to mention we’ve been getting so many White Mantle hints so far in the game.

I just find the idea of a wary alliance with the Mursaat far more interesting than an alliance with these Forgotten constructs that seem like loyal do-gooders.

Actually nothing states that the mursaat lived in the jungle, saul was stumbling through the forest (note: forest, not jungle) when he came upon their city (which was alabaster with gold filigree not completely gold)

And the exalted have no wings, are made up from energy (not flesh like the mursaat) they do share the same color armor.

Jeff.4680:

OtakuModeEngage.8679:

..they have never been depicted as having ‘wings’ that are the trademark appearance of Mursaat..

I beg to differ.

OtakuModeEngage.8679:

ANet did not trick you, their plan from the begging, and your vision were simply different…

So I guess their plan includes violating previously established lore.

OtakuModeEngage.8679:

..does not mean the Mursaat have been forgotten and wont make an appearance.

We’ve been waiting nearly 10 years.

In what way did they violate lore, be specific please.

Also as I have already pointed our from the wiki, it is commonly believed in game that the mursaat were utterly destroyed, leaving Lazarus as the sole survivor. That leaves one of three possibilities:

1. That common belief is correct. Lazarus plots revenge, but his race is gone. If we ever see a, mursaat again, it Will be one individual. If the flameseeker prophecies were indeed correct this is the most likely outcome.

2. That common belief is correct, but mursaat reproduce asexually or through some other method not requiring a second mursaat.

3. The common belief is wrong.

Fact is any of those three could be correct, but glint and the flame seeker prophecies strongly suggest #1 is correct, as the wiki suggests, and therefore we will never see the mursaat again – except perhaps for Lazarus.

And there is no evidence to suggest they survived.

Morfedel.4165:

1. That common belief is correct. Lazarus plots revenge, but his race is gone. If we ever see a, mursaat again, it Will be one individual. If the flameseeker prophecies were indeed correct this is the most likely outcome.

At least eight Mursaat survived the flameseeker prophecy. Seven were killed during the Krytan civil war, years after the release of the Titans. The last living Mursaat that we know of was Lazarus (who split himself into aspects to survive the release of the Titans). But this suggests that it was at least possible, in more ways than one, for the Mursaat to have survived.

xarallei.4279:

I mean we know they have a city in the jungle somewhere.

It’s funny to the point of annoying that people keep bringing this up. All we’re told about where Saul found the mursaat was “a dense forest”.

Nowhere is Maguuma Jungle ever specified. This has to be the longest running no-support player speculation in GW’s franchise.

Thank you Quintus Antonius.

xarallei.4279:

I just find the idea of a wary alliance with the Mursaat far more interesting than an alliance with these Forgotten constructs that seem like loyal do-gooders.

I disagree. I wouldn’t find any form of alliance with a race that has not once but twice committed genocide for selfish reasons to be at all interesting.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I wouldn’t find any form of alliance with a race that has not once but twice committed genocide for selfish reasons to be at all interesting.

Which genocides were those then? We don’t know much about why the Seers and Mursaat were at war, not enough to say who was initially at fault. Beyond that they only killed the Chosen in kryta, most people in Kryta still lived normal and happy lives, a lot of people welcomed the rule of the White Mantle after the king fled. That’s not exactly genocide.

Charr are now allies of the humans, who killed countless Charr over the centuries and stole their land for purely selfish reasons.

The Charr literally destroyed Ascalon in the Searing, and would have done the same to Orr and Kryta. For what, revenge?

You wouldn’t ally with either of those races right?

Swizzle.7982:

Morfedel.4165:

1. That common belief is correct. Lazarus plots revenge, but his race is gone. If we ever see a, mursaat again, it Will be one individual. If the flameseeker prophecies were indeed correct this is the most likely outcome.

At least eight Mursaat survived the flameseeker prophecy. Seven were killed during the Krytan civil war, years after the release of the Titans. The last living Mursaat that we know of was Lazarus (who split himself into aspects to survive the release of the Titans). But this suggests that it was at least possible, in more ways than one, for the Mursaat to have survived.

True, but the fact they specifically comment on Lazarus suggests, though didn’t confirm, that this was both unusual and possibly unique.

Regardless, at this point I think the mursaat is no longer a species, but an individual.

Yeah how dare they not recycle the same old content from like ten years ago

The one to Rule.2593:

Yeah how dare they not recycle the same old content from like ten years ago

Because continuing old lore is recycling content right? Gee, they should get rid of the glint and forgotten lore then too I guess.

Swizzle.7982:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I wouldn’t find any form of alliance with a race that has not once but twice committed genocide for selfish reasons to be at all interesting.

Which genocides were those then? We don’t know much about why the Seers and Mursaat were at war, not enough to say who was initially at fault. Beyond that they only killed the Chosen in kryta, most people in Kryta still lived normal and happy lives, a lot of people welcomed the rule of the White Mantle after the king fled. That’s not exactly genocide.

It has been explicitly told to us that the mursaat betrayed the alliance of races (consisting, originally, of the Forgotten, Seers, mursaat, dwarves, and jotun) and subsequently wiped out the Seers before fleeing into the Mists.

And we’ve been told that they killed thousands of Chosen in Kryta. Those they didn’t kill they either subjugated or turned into worshipers. Keep in mind that under the White Mantle’s rule there were two groups of people: the poor and starving, and the White Mantle.

Killing thousands and subjugating the rest counts as attempted genocide to me. Or are you to say that the kitten’s didn’t attempt genocide on Jews, because the Jews not in the concentration camps in Germany lived “happily ever after” (which would be a lie).

I know people tend to frown upon relating fictional groups to Hitler and the kitten, but really that’s a good comparison to how the mursaat treated humans in Kryta. They ruled with an iron fist, sent many from a minority to die, rewarded those who served them but had the rest live in poverty.

Swizzle.7982:

Charr are now allies of the humans, who killed countless Charr over the centuries and stole their land for purely selfish reasons.

The Charr literally destroyed Ascalon in the Searing, and would have done the same to Orr and Kryta. For what, revenge?

You wouldn’t ally with either of those races right?

Unlike the mursaat, who have been shown as fully evil, both charr and humans have been showed to have good guys among them.

i was very meh about that reveal but watching the latest wp vid got me excited for them being the exalted and not mursaat. plus there is nothing stopping the mursaat from being revealed somewhere else, maybe we could finally go up to the isle of janthir for some reason

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It has been explicitly told to us that the mursaat betrayed the alliance of races (consisting, originally, of the Forgotten, Seers, mursaat, dwarves, and jotun) and subsequently wiped out the Seers before fleeing into the Mists.

Where has it stated that this “betrayal” was anything more than the Mursaat fleeing with their own knowledge?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And we’ve been told that they killed thousands of Chosen in Kryta.

Is there a source for this figure? And I was THERE in Kryta 250 years ago, the average man and woman didn’t appear all that subjugated to me.

And if we’re making WW2 analogies, here’s one for you. The Dutch surrendered to the germans, they gave up, stopped fighting so that their own people might have a chance to live. Is that cowardice, is that worthy of their annihilation? If you think so then you’re a psychopath.

Swizzle.7982:

Where has it stated that this “betrayal” was anything more than the Mursaat fleeing with their own knowledge?

Directly? No. But:

1. It’s said they betrayed the four other races (jotun, Seers, Forgotten, dwarves) and then fled.
2. It’s been told that the war between seer and mursaat was during the time of the Tome of Rubicon’s writing in the ancient past. The Tome of Rubicon was written around the time of the previous Elder Dragon rise.
3. It’s been said that the mursaat “only recently” returned to the world of Tyria – as the Unseen Ones.

They betrayed the races, waged war with the seers, and fled the world.

Nothing – not even I – said that the betrayal was more than fleeing the world with their knowledge, but I also said that there was more to their actions before fleeing than “betrayal”.

We don’t know the full details of the betrayal, but we know that they’re the betrayers. We also know that they wiped out almost all seers, and we also know that Spectral Agony and their phasing trick was the most useful thing the non-Forgotten had against the Elder Dragons (as shown in Arah mursaat path).

Swizzle.7982:

Is there a source for this figure? And I was THERE in Kryta 250 years ago, the average man and woman didn’t appear all that subjugated to me.

There’s a source for both.Jacob Salinger states “Thousands of Chosen just like me were killed upon the Bloodstones.”

The Prophecies manual states:

“Travelers to Kryta will find a stark contrast between the fortified, polished-stone buildings of the White Mantle and the thatch-roofed huts of the regular citizens. There is a surprising amount of wealth here, but it is kept in the hands of those who adhere to the doctrines of the Mantle, and this is reflected in the architecture of the region.”

So yes, there was poverty. You probably thought that thatched huts was the norm, because anyone who wasn’t White Mantle were living in them. Well, they were the norm, but they weren’t the norm for White Mantle. The norm for White Mantle was polished stone buildings.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s been told that the war between seer and mursaat was during the time of the Tome of Rubicon’s writing in the ancient past. The Tome of Rubicon was written around the time of the previous Elder Dragon rise.

It’s been said that the mursaat “only recently” returned to the world of Tyria – as the Unseen Ones.

They betrayed the races, waged war with the seers, and fled the world.

Recently returning to Tyria has little to do with betraying anyone, and that may have been only from the perspective of the humans, they might have been there, unseen, for hundreds of years. And the war with the Seers still doesn’t prove or even suggest anything, the only thing we know is that they fought the Mursaat and that they sealed magic in the Bloodstones. Perhaps the Mursaat didn’t want to have their magic locked away in a device created by the Seers, we don’t know how trustworthy the seers were, and the Seers didn’t need the Mursaat magic for their plan to work once the Mursaat had left the world.

The Mursaat were a race of spellcasters, their options were give up their magic to the Seers or take themselves elsewhere. The first option would weaken them as an entire race, the second would allow the Seer plan to work while the Mursaat kept their magic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We don’t know the full details of the betrayal, but we know that they’re the betrayers. We also know that they wiped out almost all seers, and we also know that Spectral Agony and their phasing trick was the most useful thing the non-Forgotten had against the Elder Dragons (as shown in Arah mursaat path).

Here’s the only quote about their betrayal, from Greyston in the Mursaat path:

“Weren’t the Seers and the mursaat enemies?”
“Indeed. They worked together once, but the mursaat betrayed the other races and fled from the world, returning as the Unseen Ones.”

This can most obviously be read as the betrayal being that they fled the world, if you’re taking it weirdly literally then you might say it means that they first betrayed the other races and then fled (but the word then is missing, which would have suggested a chronological connection). But as there’s no evidence of what that other betrayal might have been, if there was anything beyond the Mursaat fleeing, you certainly can’t say anything about motives for those potential things.

This stuff about Spectral Agony being useful against Elder Dragons isn’t mentioned anywhere, you’ve simply made that up. It isn’t shown in the Mursaat path at all.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

“Travelers to Kryta will find a stark contrast between the fortified, polished-stone buildings of the White Mantle and the thatch-roofed huts of the regular citizens. There is a surprising amount of wealth here, but it is kept in the hands of those who adhere to the doctrines of the Mantle, and this is reflected in the architecture of the region.”

So yes, there was poverty. You probably thought that thatched huts was the norm, because anyone who wasn’t White Mantle were living in them. Well, they were the norm, but they weren’t the norm for White Mantle. The norm for White Mantle was polished stone buildings.

Being that Kryta had a pretty tropical climate I’m not entirely sure what’s wrong with living in thatched huts. There’s no evidence that they lived in anything different before the Mursaat appeared.

King Adlebern had a jewelled crown, wore fancy army, wielded a fiery dragon sword and lived in a castle (He also wasn’t a rightful king and would later destroy what was left of his own people). The people of ascalon wore simple clothes and lived in thatched huts.

Queen Jennah lives a castle too and throws fancy parties while her people are massacred by centaurs.

You can’t blame this inequality on the Mursaat. It’s just people being people.

Coulter.2315:

The Exalted are the Mursaat and we’re being tricked again. “Exalted” is the new “Unseen Ones” how easy it must have been to trick the Zephyrites after Glint’s death.

“Bring us the baby dragon we’re at our Golden City in the jungle, we’ll look after it, we’re super friends with Glint. Trust us.”

Epic plot twist

Zypher.7609:

Swizzle.7982:

snip..

There will always be this person.

I really enjoyed the write up and can’t wait for HoT to be released.

Arenanet has been retconning lore since before GW2 launched. It’s just a thing that they do.

Frankly, I find it detestable, but there’s nothing I can really do about it. Besides, I’m not really a lore junkie.

When are people going to supply actual examples of all these massive amounts of retcons being made everywhere all the time? Becuase people bring that up rather often, but I have never really heard of any actual example. Maybe it is just simply a matter of people thinking that moving the story in a way that they don’t like is a retcon?

The only retcon I can recall is the calendar one. Is there anyone else that I missed?

lordkrall.7241:

When are people going to supply actual examples of all these massive amounts of retcons being made everywhere all the time? Becuase people bring that up rather often, but I have never really heard of any actual example. Maybe it is just simply a matter of people thinking that moving the story in a way that they don’t like is a retcon?

The only retcon I can recall is the calendar one. Is there anyone else that I missed?

I agree, I’ve heard of people such as some in this thread saying that anet retconned this, and has retconned many other things, but I haven’t seen an actual example. As such, I find such claims doubtful, as THIS isn’t a retcon.

So, seriously, what retcons are there already?

Knighthonor.4061:

again are they good or evil?

The forgotten were good and Glint was so yes they are but it is an interesting question.

Swizzle.7982:

The one to Rule.2593:

Yeah how dare they not recycle the same old content from like ten years ago

Because continuing old lore is recycling content right? Gee, they should get rid of the glint and forgotten lore then too I guess.

I’m all for getting rid of them both, lets move on to new things already.

I don’t understand where the problem is. Ppl complain about GW2 not being historically
related to GW and ANet not using old lore. But then they do it partially and a part of the playerbase is still not happy. I for example never played GW and I really love the idea of the Exalted. Using the glint-connection gives the story some kind of foreseeing (dunno how to explain it right), but it still doesn’t require, that I play GW to understand what’s going on.
We meet the Exalted and not the Mursaat? It’s not the end of the world and definitely not the end of the GW2-lore. There are plenty of opportunities to do so in the future.