Guild Wars 2

Just read the post about condition changes for specialization patch. I wasn’t on the condition train before, but what are you guys feeling with this. Condeez will be a thing? Bosses get spongier? Death to all “nerf the zerk” threads? I am intrigued.

Was never on the zerk train, never will. You can tell from the QQ in the zerker nerf threads that they aren’t happy.

Condeez could be a thing in shloooow fights. Bosses will definitely get spongier in new “challenging group content” and we will see “nerf the <whatever will be best condi dps gear>” alongside with “nerf the zerk” because afk tanking will still not be meta. Can’t wait.

I’m curious bout the balance part, but all in all, it makes a lot of sense. It also means that besides power, precision and ferocity,, stats like condition damage gets more viable. This should show a rise of sinister and rampagers gear. In the end it can go three ways:
1: they get the balance right. Sinister deals the same amount of dps as zerker and people choose gear based on thier build (lots of conditions, then you go sinister, lots of direct damage you take zerker.
2: they overbalance and conditions are superior to direct damage. The result is that Sinister is the new zerker and the issue only moved onwards.
3: Zerker stays superior compared to sinister. Cause conditions scale more off the stats then before, it means an increase of the zerkermeta. Conditions become even less viable compared to direct damage and instead of taking on sinister gear, people will drop conditions from thier builds in favor for direct dps.

So the key here will be the balance..

The condition changes are one of the best things announced by anet this year.

-Vulnerability affecting condi dmg is hughe dmg boos to condi users.

-Reducing the condi base dmg and improving the scale is a nerf to people that run full direct dmg but still get some indirect condi procs. At the same time it is a buff to people that spec in condi dmg.

-Removing the condi cap and reworking confusion are also great changes.

Would be great to see condi stats like sinister becoming more viable in groups.

It would be hard to buff conditions to the point that they do as much damage as direct damage.

If you’ve ever run the numbers you would realize how pathetically unbalanced it was before.

I won’t redo the calculations here, but even when you were NOT effected by the condition cap, direct damage builds did ~10-12k dps, with no build up time, while condition users did an average of 3-5k dps with a slow build up.

They would need to more than double condition damage for it to be on the same level as direct damage, and it would still only be viable in long fights.

So with 700 condi damage you would do the same damage as now and anything below would result in less damage. This mean RIP celestial builds who rely on these for extra damage?

Also if they do more damage than now over 700 points and affected by vulnerability this will be HUGE for certain classes. Can really imagine some excellent builds coming out because of this!

Depending on how much you cna get them to do this will really make condi damage viable since some classes can reach 1400~2k+ condi damage

Sigmoid.7082:

So with 700 condi damage you would do the same damage as now and anything below would result in less damage. This mean RIP celestial builds who rely on these for extra damage?

Also if they do more damage than now over 700 points and affected by vulnerability this will be HUGE for certain classes. Can really imagine some excellent builds coming out because of this!

Depending on how much you cna get them to do this will really make condi damage viable since some classes can reach 1400~2k+ condi damage

edit: Nevermind I found the value

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It would be hard to buff conditions to the point that they do as much damage as direct damage.

If you’ve ever run the numbers you would realize how pathetically unbalanced it was before.

I won’t redo the calculations here, but even when you were NOT effected by the condition cap, direct damage builds did ~10-12k dps, with no build up time, while condition users did an average of 3-5k dps with a slow build up.

They would need to more than double condition damage for it to be on the same level as direct damage, and it would still only be viable in long fights.

You say 10-12k dps but I think you are confusing dps with burst. You won’t be doing 12k dps over the course of a fight. Those are just perfect situation simulation numbers.

It is most assuredly several steps in the right direction.

Improved scaling from Malice, no longer losing damage to Vuln-not-working-with-conditions as compared to Power, Confusion not being a complete waste of time in PvE, and that all-important relaxation of the condition stack limits are all key things that needed to happen for conditions to start coming into their own anywhere but sPvP. The final numbers will be telling, as will adjustments for skills that used to rely on long-duration applications of poison/burning for damage, but the overall picture is terribly exciting.

Sinister was already pulling its weight for a lot of players who weren’t 100% on the Zerk or Bust train. With these adjustments it will be possible for Sinister to bust ahead into full-on Acceptable Gear status for some builds, while things like Rabid or Carrion will start having much wider niches. Remember, all armor/item stats will be getting a boost when the core specs update hits next week – and Ryan just told us that Malice as a stat is going to be a lot more valuable. Every point over ~700 you can get will be worth more damage than it was pre-this-stuff, which means sets with Malice just became overall more valuable.

My Rabid-armored pistols Engineer might actually be useful as well as fun. Who would’ve ever thought, eh?

Honestly they could just up the scaling and keep the base damage except for burning, because the “base condition damage” (base damage condition divided by scaling) is already ‘low’ with the exception of burning: bleeding 850, burning 1312, confusion 867, poison 840, torment 850 all at level 80. With the improved scaling these numbers will be a bit lower.

On a side note and more to the dev’s: don’t forget to nerf caithe in the living story memory seed sections. Being caith adds 2500 condition damage.

So I wonder if they are balancing this for the soon to be global condi-duration nerf.

Basically, all I read was Engineers (especially new Grenade) will surpass Elementalists in the new meta.

Sigmoid.7082:

So with 700 condi damage you would do the same damage as now and anything below would result in less damage. This mean RIP celestial builds who rely on these for extra damage?

Also if they do more damage than now over 700 points and affected by vulnerability this will be HUGE for certain classes. Can really imagine some excellent builds coming out because of this!

Depending on how much you cna get them to do this will really make condi damage viable since some classes can reach 1400~2k+ condi damage

Celestial seeing a nerf (via condition damage rebalancing) might be a good thing but then it begs the question if ANet will want to add condition duration/boon duration to Celestial as “compensation” which would give it a specific different niche.

It’s also odd that Bleeding and Burning will essentially be the same thing but with different formulas for damage.

Maybe one should reduce damage dealt (up to a % limit stack size) from target or inherently spread (Burning condition) to nearby targets.

Solori.6025:

So I wonder if they are balancing this for the soon to be global condi-duration nerf.

That would be a good thing tbh – higher intensity but shorter average durations.

Conditions need crits. Took WoW awhile to implament critical DoTs and Heals but they did and it seemed to balance certain aspects out.

Darkwolfer.7819:

Conditions need crits. Took WoW awhile to implament critical DoTs and Heals but they did and it seemed to balance certain aspects out.

No.. they really don’t. Firstly, this is not WoW, so lets get that out of our systems right now. Secondly, conditions already ignore armour so adding crits will just make them more powerful than direct damage builds. The new changes will be more than enough to bring them in line with direct damage builds. If anything I feel they may be stronger in some parts of the game.

Condition damage is supposed to be sustained damage, not spikey burst damage. So to me, it makes no sense to make DoT’s crit.

Darkwolfer.7819:

Conditions need crits. Took WoW awhile to implament critical DoTs and Heals but they did and it seemed to balance certain aspects out.

If conditions crit we get some dangerous situations with burst application. The easiest example is terror: no one wants to see 2k ticks by one skill.

1 thing to verify, cause i might have mis read it

if i have 0 condition dmg stats, and u have 2100.

i apply 2 stacks of bleed, ( i dunno real numbrs so) and pretend my dmg is like 100/sec

u apply 3 stacks of bleed, pretend ur dmg is like 500/sec

the baddie now has 5 stacks of bleed, after my 2 stacks go thru, are your 3 stacks now starting to dmg?

related but not the same question:

when theres like 500 stacks, and i get in at 501, do i do no dmg until those 500 go out and then mine is up?

I’m wondering how poison and burning will be changed duration wise, now that they stack. in intensity. For poison that heal reduction factor is a major thing in pvp, and so high poison uptime is often as important as stacking many stacks on other condies.

Zalavaaris.5329:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It would be hard to buff conditions to the point that they do as much damage as direct damage.

If you’ve ever run the numbers you would realize how pathetically unbalanced it was before.

I won’t redo the calculations here, but even when you were NOT effected by the condition cap, direct damage builds did ~10-12k dps, with no build up time, while condition users did an average of 3-5k dps with a slow build up.

They would need to more than double condition damage for it to be on the same level as direct damage, and it would still only be viable in long fights.

You say 10-12k dps but I think you are confusing dps with burst. You won’t be doing 12k dps over the course of a fight. Those are just perfect situation simulation numbers.

Those are top tier meta theoretical sustained dps numbers for both direct and condition damage builds.

So i’m not sure what the issue is. I compared them equally, it is just until now conditions were just that much worse. Note that these are “pure” condition builds, not any sort of condition/power hybrid builds.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Zalavaaris.5329:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It would be hard to buff conditions to the point that they do as much damage as direct damage.

If you’ve ever run the numbers you would realize how pathetically unbalanced it was before.

I won’t redo the calculations here, but even when you were NOT effected by the condition cap, direct damage builds did ~10-12k dps, with no build up time, while condition users did an average of 3-5k dps with a slow build up.

They would need to more than double condition damage for it to be on the same level as direct damage, and it would still only be viable in long fights.

You say 10-12k dps but I think you are confusing dps with burst. You won’t be doing 12k dps over the course of a fight. Those are just perfect situation simulation numbers.

Those are top tier meta theoretical sustained dps numbers for both direct and condition damage builds.

So i’m not sure what the issue is. I compared them equally, it is just until now conditions were just that much worse. Note that these are “pure” condition builds, not any sort of condition/power hybrid builds.

I call bs on the accuracy of these numbers. I have never seen anyone do even close to 12 k sustained dps with berserker. Condis don’t crit and up till now haven’t been affected by vulnerability so the condi numbers are fairly close to what you can actually get.

If that’s real I would love to see the rotation to make it happen.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Zalavaaris.5329:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It would be hard to buff conditions to the point that they do as much damage as direct damage.

If you’ve ever run the numbers you would realize how pathetically unbalanced it was before.

I won’t redo the calculations here, but even when you were NOT effected by the condition cap, direct damage builds did ~10-12k dps, with no build up time, while condition users did an average of 3-5k dps with a slow build up.

They would need to more than double condition damage for it to be on the same level as direct damage, and it would still only be viable in long fights.

You say 10-12k dps but I think you are confusing dps with burst. You won’t be doing 12k dps over the course of a fight. Those are just perfect situation simulation numbers.

Those are top tier meta theoretical sustained dps numbers for both direct and condition damage builds.

So i’m not sure what the issue is. I compared them equally, it is just until now conditions were just that much worse. Note that these are “pure” condition builds, not any sort of condition/power hybrid builds.

They arent, they are top tier meta theoretical numbers based on 25 second burst in a perfect situation. The people thinking they are running zerker gear and always doing 12k per second sustained are delusional.

Rin.1046:

Darkwolfer.7819:

Conditions need crits. Took WoW awhile to implament critical DoTs and Heals but they did and it seemed to balance certain aspects out.

No.. they really don’t. Firstly, this is not WoW, so lets get that out of our systems right now. Secondly, conditions already ignore armour so adding crits will just make them more powerful than direct damage builds. The new changes will be more than enough to bring them in line with direct damage builds. If anything I feel they may be stronger in some parts of the game.

Condition damage is supposed to be sustained damage, not spikey burst damage. So to me, it makes no sense to make DoT’s crit.

Not saying this is WoW. In fact I dislike WoW a lot but obviously they have done a few things right considering it leads the industry for all-time largest playerbase… of course that is because grandma’s and 8 yr olds can play together as a fun family activity…

Seriously though don’t blow a gasket because someone makes a suggestion. Conditions will never live up to DD unless they can crit OR the damage done over time is comparable which means % based on total HP somehow since in short fights it will be too slow.

Maybe they could make DoTs do an initial base damage on application, or maybe the changes that are coming will truly fix it, but I am reserved. I am only fighting for build diversity not let’s jump to a new meta of all condi builds.

Zalavaaris.5329:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Zalavaaris.5329:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It would be hard to buff conditions to the point that they do as much damage as direct damage.

If you’ve ever run the numbers you would realize how pathetically unbalanced it was before.

I won’t redo the calculations here, but even when you were NOT effected by the condition cap, direct damage builds did ~10-12k dps, with no build up time, while condition users did an average of 3-5k dps with a slow build up.

They would need to more than double condition damage for it to be on the same level as direct damage, and it would still only be viable in long fights.

You say 10-12k dps but I think you are confusing dps with burst. You won’t be doing 12k dps over the course of a fight. Those are just perfect situation simulation numbers.

Those are top tier meta theoretical sustained dps numbers for both direct and condition damage builds.

So i’m not sure what the issue is. I compared them equally, it is just until now conditions were just that much worse. Note that these are “pure” condition builds, not any sort of condition/power hybrid builds.

They arent, they are top tier meta theoretical numbers based on 25 second burst in a perfect situation. The people thinking they are running zerker gear and always doing 12k per second sustained are delusional.

my ele can easily hit 9k sustained with 12k short bursts on IB CD. It of course requires 25 stacks vuln, and 25 stacks might. But for an organized group that isn’t actually that hard to achieve. Most bosses also die within 25 seconds at those numbers, so it is the entire duration for the fight.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Zalavaaris.5329:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Zalavaaris.5329:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It would be hard to buff conditions to the point that they do as much damage as direct damage.

If you’ve ever run the numbers you would realize how pathetically unbalanced it was before.

I won’t redo the calculations here, but even when you were NOT effected by the condition cap, direct damage builds did ~10-12k dps, with no build up time, while condition users did an average of 3-5k dps with a slow build up.

They would need to more than double condition damage for it to be on the same level as direct damage, and it would still only be viable in long fights.

You say 10-12k dps but I think you are confusing dps with burst. You won’t be doing 12k dps over the course of a fight. Those are just perfect situation simulation numbers.

Those are top tier meta theoretical sustained dps numbers for both direct and condition damage builds.

So i’m not sure what the issue is. I compared them equally, it is just until now conditions were just that much worse. Note that these are “pure” condition builds, not any sort of condition/power hybrid builds.

They arent, they are top tier meta theoretical numbers based on 25 second burst in a perfect situation. The people thinking they are running zerker gear and always doing 12k per second sustained are delusional.

my ele can easily hit 9k sustained with 12k short bursts on IB CD. It of course requires 25 stacks vuln, and 25 stacks might. But for an organized group that isn’t actually that hard to achieve. Most bosses also die within 25 seconds at those numbers, so it is the entire duration for the fight.

ok /15chars

My biggest concern is how increasing the cap affects smaller groups or individual farming. For instance right now I can hit 1.2k burns per sec on virtue passive. If they have to scale down damage due to increasing stacks do I have to hit 3-5-10-15?? stacks in order to reach the same damage? Im afraid the scaling will kill smaller group play when they talk about having hundreds of stacks possible.

People continue with the Sinister promotion but I don’t get it..

if you are going to specialize in condition dmg then Sinister is just wasting a stat by giving you power..

I can kind of see its use for some classes if you are going for a hybrid

but Personally I find Rabid the far better stat set.. ditch the power for Toughness

gives you far more survivability which will give you more dps uptime in the long run

^Not everyone weapon/skills scales well with condi damage.

For example warrior sword and longbow are a hybrids, ele can do power as well do condi damage at same time, even revenant mace/axe does well damage with both stats (without considering utility skills). Sinister will shine in that kind of stuff over rabin.

After all if we look at pvp meta builds we dont see rabins but cele. I wonder why.

Unless they rebalance bosses, they will be trivialised. Esp teq and jormag who will be obliterated in their phases. Vinewrath bosses will never fail as well.

Triple headed wurm may benefit from greater success rates tho

skowcia.8257:

^Not everyone weapon/skills scales well with condi damage.

For example warrior sword and longbow are a hybrids, ele can do power as well do condi damage at same time, even revenant mace/axe does well damage with both stats (without considering utility skills). Sinister will shine in that kind of stuff over rabin.

After all if we look at pvp meta builds we dont see rabins but cele. I wonder why.

That sounds and awful lot to me like Class/Stat design..
as if some stat sets were designed specifically for specific classes

not that I think thats a bad thing.. in fact I’ve thought that myself for years now
Zerker designed for Range not for Melee

Randulf.7614:

Unless they rebalance bosses, they will be trivialised. Esp teq and jormag who will be obliterated in their phases. Vinewrath bosses will never fail as well.

Triple headed wurm may benefit from greater success rates tho

This is incorrect.

1. 5 power users = 5000 dps each = 25,000 dps total
2. 5 condition users = 3000 dps each = 3000 dps total

3. 10 power users = 5000 dps each = 50,000 dps total
4. 5 condition users + 5 power users = 3000 dps each + 5000 dps each = 28,0000 dps total

After the changes

5. 10 power users = 5000 dps each = 50,000 dps total
6. 5 condition users + 5 power users = 3000 dps each + 5000 dps each = 40,0000 dps total

What you are saying in your post is that 5 is perfectly balanced and ok, but 6 is unbalanced and will trivialize content.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Randulf.7614:

Unless they rebalance bosses, they will be trivialised. Esp teq and jormag who will be obliterated in their phases. Vinewrath bosses will never fail as well.

Triple headed wurm may benefit from greater success rates tho

2. 5 condition users = 3000 dps each = 3000 dps total

How does that work exactly?

Conditions stacking is capped. A lot of conditions are wasted when you have more conditions applied than the stack cap allow.

Kulvar.1239:

Conditions stacking is capped. A lot of conditions are wasted when you have more conditions applied than the stack cap allow.

In case u haven’t read the big new article on the front page of this site they are significantly increasing the stack caps.

DevilLordLaser.8619:

no longer losing damage to Vuln-not-working-with-conditions as compared to Power

I guess you’d be fine with condition damage being reduced by protection then?

Fashion Mage.3712:

DevilLordLaser.8619:

no longer losing damage to Vuln-not-working-with-conditions as compared to Power

I guess you’d be fine with condition damage being reduced by protection then?

Too late as they added resistance buff….

Achrisos.1360:

Fashion Mage.3712:

DevilLordLaser.8619:

no longer losing damage to Vuln-not-working-with-conditions as compared to Power

I guess you’d be fine with condition damage being reduced by protection then?

Too late as they added resistance buff….

That’s true, although resistance seems to be exceedingly rare at the moment.

Zalavaaris.5329:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Randulf.7614:

Unless they rebalance bosses, they will be trivialised. Esp teq and jormag who will be obliterated in their phases. Vinewrath bosses will never fail as well.

Triple headed wurm may benefit from greater success rates tho

2. 5 condition users = 3000 dps each = 3000 dps total

How does that work exactly?

That example is based on the system in place now. It’s also based on builds where one player can reach the 25 stack cap on bleeds. Thus, if 5 users are all stacking 25 bleed, only 1 is getting credit with the other four’s stacks being wasted.

Once the changes hit, all 5 should be doing damage without conflicting with each other. Thus, 5 × 3,000 DPs would generate 15K dps. But wait, maxing one’s condi damage stat should produce more damage than it does now. Exactly how much is conjecture, but if the current build is doing 3K, the new one should be higher.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Achrisos.1360:

Fashion Mage.3712:

DevilLordLaser.8619:

no longer losing damage to Vuln-not-working-with-conditions as compared to Power

I guess you’d be fine with condition damage being reduced by protection then?

Too late as they added resistance buff….

That’s true, although resistance seems to be exceedingly rare at the moment.

Rare, but also kind of significantly more powerful than Protection. And also a PvP perspective, which is fine but just isn’t how I think. Conditions lose damage to time-gating and cleanses while Power loses damage to neither, and both types of attacks are equally vulnerable to blocks/blinds/dodges/whatevers as a condition attack still needs to hit to inflict its condition.

Given the fact that condition damage takes longer to deliver, is countered by a wider array of defenses, is outright nullified by Resistance as opposed to simply reduced by a percentage a’la Protection…well, a few nods here and there seem appropriate, hm?

Vuln buffs conditions, conditions themselves will do more damage and you can stack more of them. In the current dungeons full zerk will still be superior as it is frontloaded damage.