Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
Current State of PVE Combat
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I think the best way for the devs to design encounters is so that each encounter has a mechanic that is based around each aspect of combat (control, support and deeps).
That way players can choose either to:
- Have players dedicated to that aspect (one player specced to handle the control aspect of the fight, another for the support etc).
OR
- each player brings a little of what is needed and the responsibility is shared (a Warrior might sacrifice 2 trait points from Power to get Leg Specialist against a foe that needs to have movement reduced).
Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
In HoT they are actually introduing a new mechanic to pve bosses that givers a small window of opportunity for control to become useful and stop the wyvern taking off.
Bosses will now have a grey bar that lights up slightly when the boss becomes vulnerable and players must work together to fill up the bar with different control abilities in order to prevent a devastating attack. All conditions and effects will be assigned different values. For example, Blind will add a very minute amount to the bar but Stun will add a rather large chunk.
I haven’t seen to much about support but to be honest I think support is useful in itself, giving buffs to make everyone do more damage is just a massive bonus and if you have the opportunity to do that then that is beneficial to you anyway.
This needs to be addressed actually because I think it’s a very real possibility if the development team doesn’t complete the fleshing out of the combat system by continuing to fix inherent combat issues like condi stacking and support weakness in PVE.
My fear is this: That nothing more will be done to completely flesh out the PVE combat complexity by continuing to add to the complexity of combat in order to put together teams that use a trinity system (in which trinity lite is an option but not required) and instead we’ll see groups of all guardians, warriors, and now revenants in these dungeons and if you aren’t one of those three they’ll kick you at every opportunity.
That’s what I see coming unless major changes continue down the path started with the addition of Taunt in PVE.
Support weakness? I wasn’t aware that aegis, fury, vigor, condi cleanse, protection, reflects, regen and might were weak. Support means many things to different people and in this game support is fine. Remember this game doesn’t have healers so trying to be one won’t work well! Also if you exclude all classes except warrior and guardian from the game currently your group is got a very bad comp. However condi stacking is an issue but I doubt Anet will doing anything about it.
The Sickest Guild NA
Honestly I’d say it’s fine, it’s just a matter of the people you group with.
It would be nice for dungeons to require a more varied group set-up in gameplay (example being, conditions are strong in one path, weak in another, berserker is heavily punished in one path, strong in another) but i can’t see it happening.
Warrior 80 | Guardian 80 | Ranger 80 | Engineer 80 |
Thief 80 | Elementalist 80 | Mesmer 80 | Necromancer 80 | Revenant TBA
Thief 80 | Elementalist 80 | Mesmer 80 | Necromancer 80 | Revenant TBA
This needs to be addressed actually because I think it’s a very real possibility if the development team doesn’t complete the fleshing out of the combat system by continuing to fix inherent combat issues like condi stacking and support weakness in PVE.
My fear is this: That nothing more will be done to completely flesh out the PVE combat complexity by continuing to add to the complexity of combat in order to put together teams that use a trinity system (in which trinity lite is an option but not required) and instead we’ll see groups of all guardians, warriors, and now revenants in these dungeons and if you aren’t one of those three they’ll kick you at every opportunity.
That’s what I see coming unless major changes continue down the path started with the addition of Taunt in PVE.
Support weakness? I wasn’t aware that aegis, fury, vigor, condi cleanse, protection, reflects, regen and might were weak. Support means many things to different people and in this game support is fine. Remember this game doesn’t have healers so trying to be one won’t work well! Also if you exclude all classes except warrior and guardian from the game currently your group is got a very bad comp. However condi stacking is an issue but I doubt Anet will doing anything about it.
Nah when these people say “Support” they mean characters that provide aegis, fury, vigor, condi cleanse, protection, reflects, regen and might as their “main” playstyle, much like how healers in other games just play the red bar game. I hope they never do that in this game, we’ve had enough “Support” in other games and it’s not needed at all.
Condition stacking is a real issue though, let’s see if they ever “fix” it. Control has some serious problems on Champion / Legendary mobs and they are addressing that with the new Breakbar, might make Control very important.
Support is 100% fine.
This needs to be addressed actually because I think it’s a very real possibility if the development team doesn’t complete the fleshing out of the combat system by continuing to fix inherent combat issues like condi stacking and support weakness in PVE.
My fear is this: That nothing more will be done to completely flesh out the PVE combat complexity by continuing to add to the complexity of combat in order to put together teams that use a trinity system (in which trinity lite is an option but not required) and instead we’ll see groups of all guardians, warriors, and now revenants in these dungeons and if you aren’t one of those three they’ll kick you at every opportunity.
That’s what I see coming unless major changes continue down the path started with the addition of Taunt in PVE.
Support weakness? I wasn’t aware that aegis, fury, vigor, condi cleanse, protection, reflects, regen and might were weak. Support means many things to different people and in this game support is fine. Remember this game doesn’t have healers so trying to be one won’t work well! Also if you exclude all classes except warrior and guardian from the game currently your group is got a very bad comp. However condi stacking is an issue but I doubt Anet will doing anything about it.
Nah when these people say “Support” they mean characters that provide aegis, fury, vigor, condi cleanse, protection, reflects, regen and might as their “main” playstyle, much like how healers in other games just play the red bar game. I hope they never do that in this game, we’ve had enough “Support” in other games and it’s not needed at all.
Condition stacking is a real issue though, let’s see if they ever “fix” it. Control has some serious problems on Champion / Legendary mobs and they are addressing that with the new Breakbar, might make Control very important.
Support is 100% fine.
Actually what I’m talking about is cleansing with healing that actually scales properly. It doesn’t scale in regen, it doesn’t scale properly in direct heals and no I don’t like healing bars, NWO doesn’t use healing bars however it gives you healing scaling and abilities that allow you to control the playing field properly while fighting in PVE, support is fine in PVP but support in PVE doesn’t really exist yet in this title.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
In HoT they are actually introduing a new mechanic to pve bosses that givers a small window of opportunity for control to become useful and stop the wyvern taking off.
Bosses will now have a grey bar that lights up slightly when the boss becomes vulnerable and players must work together to fill up the bar with different control abilities in order to prevent a devastating attack. All conditions and effects will be assigned different values. For example, Blind will add a very minute amount to the bar but Stun will add a rather large chunk.
I haven’t seen to much about support but to be honest I think support is useful in itself, giving buffs to make everyone do more damage is just a massive bonus and if you have the opportunity to do that then that is beneficial to you anyway.
Oh I’m aware of the changes to CC actually and I’m grateful for the changes to defiance it’s an awesome change I really like it alot!
What I’m specifically addressing though is that there needs to be more work on the two other choices in PVE builds which really don’t help the group dynamic much, they are conditions and how they work in large groups and support and how in PVE they are barely scratching the surface of what needs to be balanced properly.
I think, and I know it’s a bit early because we don’t have all of the data, but I think that they definitely need to continue in the direction they are going with defiance and taunt in the direction of having trinity lite as a choice to make the PVE playing field complete.
Right now there are too many holes even with what they’ve changed that I think what we’ll see if they left things the way they are this far, we’ll see all plate groups because nothing else will be preferred and plate will become the new Zerker meta if left untouched.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
This needs to be addressed actually because I think it’s a very real possibility if the development team doesn’t complete the fleshing out of the combat system by continuing to fix inherent combat issues like condi stacking and support weakness in PVE.
My fear is this: That nothing more will be done to completely flesh out the PVE combat complexity by continuing to add to the complexity of combat in order to put together teams that use a trinity system (in which trinity lite is an option but not required) and instead we’ll see groups of all guardians, warriors, and now revenants in these dungeons and if you aren’t one of those three they’ll kick you at every opportunity.
That’s what I see coming unless major changes continue down the path started with the addition of Taunt in PVE.
Support weakness? I wasn’t aware that aegis, fury, vigor, condi cleanse, protection, reflects, regen and might were weak. Support means many things to different people and in this game support is fine. Remember this game doesn’t have healers so trying to be one won’t work well! Also if you exclude all classes except warrior and guardian from the game currently your group is got a very bad comp. However condi stacking is an issue but I doubt Anet will doing anything about it.
Regen is a pathetically weak boon, you shouldn’t include it there.
Regen is a pathetically weak boon, you shouldn’t include it there.
You realise it comes in different intensities, right? When it’s at level 5 (Guardian mace symbol of faith) or 6 (Ranger healing spring) it can do a massive amount of healing.
At level 80 it’s 130 + .125 * healing stat per second per level of intensity.
With a healing stat of 0 that’s 650 for symbol of faith and 780 for healing spring per second. With the right traits and enough boon duration the regen on both can be constant.
At level 1 intensity – which is what most other abilities give – it is a bit weaksauce – and sadly doesn’t stack in intensity. But it’s not a universally weak boon.
What would be good was if support scaled with a stat, say you had enough toughness your reflect wall would last 15 seconds instead of 10 and with low toughness only 5 seconds.
It would be nice for dungeons to require a more varied group set-up in gameplay (example being, conditions are strong in one path, weak in another, berserker is heavily punished in one path, strong in another) but i can’t see it happening.
That would be the ideal solution, I think. The main issue with PvE right now is that all enemies are too similar – most have a lot of health, not that much armor, and use very slow high damage attacks. Changing this, and creating different scenarions, could create a situation in which there’s a best build for each situation, fine; but nothing is the best build for all situations.
Regen is a pathetically weak boon, you shouldn’t include it there.
You realise it comes in different intensities, right? When it’s at level 5 (Guardian mace symbol of faith) or 6 (Ranger healing spring) it can do a massive amount of healing.
At level 80 it’s 130 + .125 * healing stat per second per level of intensity.
With a healing stat of 0 that’s 650 for symbol of faith and 780 for healing spring per second. With the right traits and enough boon duration the regen on both can be constant.
At level 1 intensity – which is what most other abilities give – it is a bit weaksauce – and sadly doesn’t stack in intensity. But it’s not a universally weak boon.
Yeah well, I don’t want anything under my smoke/dark/fire fields ;p
(edited by Zenith.7301)
This needs to be addressed actually because I think it’s a very real possibility if the development team doesn’t complete the fleshing out of the combat system by continuing to fix inherent combat issues like condi stacking and support weakness in PVE.
My fear is this: That nothing more will be done to completely flesh out the PVE combat complexity by continuing to add to the complexity of combat in order to put together teams that use a trinity system (in which trinity lite is an option but not required) and instead we’ll see groups of all guardians, warriors, and now revenants in these dungeons and if you aren’t one of those three they’ll kick you at every opportunity.
That’s what I see coming unless major changes continue down the path started with the addition of Taunt in PVE.
Support weakness? I wasn’t aware that aegis, fury, vigor, condi cleanse, protection, reflects, regen and might were weak. Support means many things to different people and in this game support is fine. Remember this game doesn’t have healers so trying to be one won’t work well! Also if you exclude all classes except warrior and guardian from the game currently your group is got a very bad comp. However condi stacking is an issue but I doubt Anet will doing anything about it.
Regen is a pathetically weak boon, you shouldn’t include it there.
Yet a Warrior with Banner Regen and Sentinel gear can solo a boss like Lupicus with a very small amount of dodges. Yes regen is very weak.
What would be good was if support scaled with a stat, say you had enough toughness your reflect wall would last 15 seconds instead of 10 and with low toughness only 5 seconds.
So you want Support to benefit from stats. I don’t see that happening, Support is already very powerful in the game, why make it even better?
Some people got it wrong on this thread, you can Support just fine in Berserker gear, and that’s the beauty of the system. Why do you want to limit the Support role in using Healing Power / Boon Duration or whatever gear? You CAN Support just fine and Support IS the best option in game, there is just no Support gear, those are completely different things.
tl;dr Support builds ARE great in the game, Support gear isn’t.
Ask yourselves why would you want to restrict yourself in specific gear types if you want to play a Supporting role?
Becouse thats the only downside with support skills there is no stat tied to it so full damage dealers can support as well as someone wanting to specialize in it.
Becouse thats the only downside with support skills there is no stat tied to it so full damage dealers can support as well as someone wanting to specialize in it.
And why is that a bad thing? Allowing people with any stats to Support well makes Support even better.
Becouse thats the only downside with support skills there is no stat tied to it so full damage dealers can support as well as someone wanting to specialize in it.
And why is that a bad thing? Allowing people with any stats to Support well makes Support even better.
Not really thats why people complain about the meta full dps can control and support as well as anyone else why should you go into any other role if 1 role can do it all?
Becouse thats the only downside with support skills there is no stat tied to it so full damage dealers can support as well as someone wanting to specialize in it.
And why is that a bad thing? Allowing people with any stats to Support well makes Support even better.
Not really thats why people complain about the meta full dps can control and support as well as anyone else why should you go into any other role if 1 role can do it all?
What do gear stats have to do with your role? Gear != role.
What would be good was if support scaled with a stat, say you had enough toughness your reflect wall would last 15 seconds instead of 10 and with low toughness only 5 seconds.
Why is toughness related to support? It’s a selfish stat.
What do gear stats have to do with your role? Gear != role.
Gear has quite a lot to do with your role. Role is defined by weapon, traits , skills and the stats. Don’t believe me? Next time you run a dungeon give me a call , i’ll make a full nomad gear warrior with meta dps utilities and traits and we’ll see if everyone is happy with my role as a dmg dealer.
And specializing in a certain build is actually a good thing makes roles a bit more defined and opens the door to new interesting builds .
What do gear stats have to do with your role? Gear != role.
Gear has quite a lot to do with your role. Role is defined by weapon, traits , skills and the stats. Don’t believe me? Next time you run a dungeon give me a call , i’ll make a full nomad gear warrior with meta dps utilities and traits and we’ll see if everyone is happy with my role as a dmg dealer.
And specializing in a certain build is actually a good thing makes roles a bit more defined and opens the door to new interesting builds .
Gear doesn’t have to define your role. Sure gear offers you more Damage, condition or power, but it doesn’t play any other role in the game.
Making gear affect Support more doesn’t open more interesting builds, it actually limits them. If to do proper Support you need specific stats, that’s more limiting for the player, it doesn’t open more “interesting” builds because you will be locked to those stats to play that “role”, while now you can play the Support role just fine using any gear stats you want.
Gear has quite a lot to do with your role. Role is defined by weapon, traits , skills and the stats. Don’t believe me? Next time you run a dungeon give me a call , i’ll make a full nomad gear warrior with meta dps utilities and traits and we’ll see if everyone is happy with my role as a dmg dealer.
And specializing in a certain build is actually a good thing makes roles a bit more defined and opens the door to new interesting builds .
You’re just gonna be less effective at that role but you will still be a damage dealer.
Do you really want to have your role set in stone once you get that ascended gear? Or would you prefer having traits and utilities having much bigger impact than something that’s not really easily changeable.
What do gear stats have to do with your role? Gear != role.
Gear has quite a lot to do with your role. Role is defined by weapon, traits , skills and the stats. Don’t believe me? Next time you run a dungeon give me a call , i’ll make a full nomad gear warrior with meta dps utilities and traits and we’ll see if everyone is happy with my role as a dmg dealer.
And specializing in a certain build is actually a good thing makes roles a bit more defined and opens the door to new interesting builds .
Gear doesn’t have to define your role. Sure gear offers you more Damage, condition or power, but it doesn’t play any other role in the game.
Making gear affect Support more doesn’t open more interesting builds, it actually limits them. If to do proper Support you need specific stats, that’s more limiting for the player, it doesn’t open more “interesting” builds because you will be locked to those stats to play that “role”, while now you can play the Support role just fine using any gear stats you want.
ok but then if support shouldent be affected by stats then damage shouldent be affected by stats either take away power precision condition damage and ofcourse ferocity critical chance aswell.
everyone should be able to do same damge no matter what stats they have….. see what a fun game we get when we turn the tables around
ok but then if support shouldent be affected by stats then damage shouldent be affected by stats either take away power precision condition damage and ofcourse ferocity critical chance aswell.
everyone should be able to do same damge no matter what stats they have….. see what a fun game we get when we turn the tables around
It actually would be the best solution and it was like this (kinda) in gw1. Have only your traits, weapons and utilities define your build. Changing a build would take seconds instead of getting a completely different gear set. Having stats that depends on your gear was anets mistake and probably introduced to the game to appease to the mmo crowd.
What do gear stats have to do with your role? Gear != role.
Gear has quite a lot to do with your role. Role is defined by weapon, traits , skills and the stats. Don’t believe me? Next time you run a dungeon give me a call , i’ll make a full nomad gear warrior with meta dps utilities and traits and we’ll see if everyone is happy with my role as a dmg dealer.
And specializing in a certain build is actually a good thing makes roles a bit more defined and opens the door to new interesting builds .
Gear doesn’t have to define your role. Sure gear offers you more Damage, condition or power, but it doesn’t play any other role in the game.
Making gear affect Support more doesn’t open more interesting builds, it actually limits them. If to do proper Support you need specific stats, that’s more limiting for the player, it doesn’t open more “interesting” builds because you will be locked to those stats to play that “role”, while now you can play the Support role just fine using any gear stats you want.
ok but then if support shouldent be affected by stats then damage shouldent be affected by stats either take away power precision condition damage and ofcourse ferocity critical chance aswell.
everyone should be able to do same damge no matter what stats they have….. see what a fun game we get when we turn the tables around
Removing stats from gear would make the game far better. However what you are missing is that Damage will always be needed in any type content.
Let’s say they add a “Trinity” with more defined Support/Control/Damage that it is now. Usually in Trinity games you need a certain amount of defined roles and the rest of them are just damage dealers. What happens when the content requires 1 healer and you get 2 in your group? Bad things happen.
It’s not uncommon in Trinity MMORPGs for tanks and healers to use different sets of gear (or builds) for when they are not needed to fulfill that role but instead go to the Damage role. Or tanks having both full tanky gear AND a different type of gear for when the “tank” spots are already filled.
There is a reason Trinity games have the dreaded “LF Healer” and “LF Tank” messages. It’s because Tanks and Healers are more boring to play in regular PVE (soloing/questing) using their Tank/Heal specs/gear so fewer people play them.
Do you really want to add this extra gear requirement in the game?
As additional stats sure. I’d be fine with it, just the same way as we have condition duration. If anything boon duration is one of the support stats already put in the game. If they added more stats to the list they would need to think about all the players that have already crafted there gear they wish to use.
If for example they added agony as a base stat there would of been some real problems with the game as it only worked in one area. That being said id like to see a new stat similer to agory but as a scale based stat for the damage we do to the defiance bar with control abilities. Put it in the same slot for infustions and you have a solid replacement for pve players who dont want the agony resist or wvw stats.
Oversimplified observation:
Red Bar Game = bad.
Gray Bar Game = good.
The table is a fable.
I wonder if people actually theorycraft group compositions built around sustain before claiming how weak healing support is.
Crazy levels of survivability are attainable without losing THAT much damage.
What do gear stats have to do with your role? Gear != role.
Gear has quite a lot to do with your role. Role is defined by weapon, traits , skills and the stats. Don’t believe me? Next time you run a dungeon give me a call , i’ll make a full nomad gear warrior with meta dps utilities and traits and we’ll see if everyone is happy with my role as a dmg dealer.
And specializing in a certain build is actually a good thing makes roles a bit more defined and opens the door to new interesting builds .
There….are…no…roles…in…PvE. Everyone is supposed to be fulfilling all options, all the time. That’s where the problem is coming from. People can’t recover from previous games they played and adapt to this game. The whole point of game design in this game was to remove those trinity role requirements/restrictions. That’s why utilities are not linked to stats to be functional. There is absolutely nothing interesting to me about having to depend on a healer or a tank. I’m not saying that you have no interest in having to depend on/be a healer or tank, but this is not the game for that. It was never advertised as such…in fact it was advertised as not having dedicated healers and tanks. They are of course, back peddling, on that initial advertisement…but all companies do anything they can to draw in more customers.
This needs to be addressed actually because I think it’s a very real possibility if the development team doesn’t complete the fleshing out of the combat system by continuing to fix inherent combat issues like condi stacking and support weakness in PVE.
My fear is this: That nothing more will be done to completely flesh out the PVE combat complexity by continuing to add to the complexity of combat in order to put together teams that use a trinity system (in which trinity lite is an option but not required) and instead we’ll see groups of all guardians, warriors, and now revenants in these dungeons and if you aren’t one of those three they’ll kick you at every opportunity.
That’s what I see coming unless major changes continue down the path started with the addition of Taunt in PVE.
Support weakness? I wasn’t aware that aegis, fury, vigor, condi cleanse, protection, reflects, regen and might were weak. Support means many things to different people and in this game support is fine. Remember this game doesn’t have healers so trying to be one won’t work well! Also if you exclude all classes except warrior and guardian from the game currently your group is got a very bad comp. However condi stacking is an issue but I doubt Anet will doing anything about it.
Regen is a pathetically weak boon, you shouldn’t include it there.
Contrary to both of your opinions, regen does scale off of healing power. Your healing power. If regen is weak, its because you aren’t equipping Healing at all. I’m quite happy with my 300+ health a second. And I certainly don’t want it based off the Healing of the caster, otherwise I’d be getting everyone else’s “useless” regens.
My fear is this: That nothing more will be done to completely flesh out the PVE combat complexity by continuing to add to the complexity of combat in order to put together teams that use a trinity system (in which trinity lite is an option but not required) and instead we’ll see groups of all guardians, warriors, and now revenants in these dungeons and if you aren’t one of those three they’ll kick you at every opportunity.
.
Right now zerker is an option but not required. What is the problem of making trynity an option but not required? Also almost every class can spec for a support role if they want. I don’t see people kicking other classes because of that. Right now we have necro as a useless class for speed runs anyway.
The wvw and spvp meta is always changing. Looking foward for pve changes in the expansion.
Ouroboro Knight’s [OK]
There….are…no…roles…in…PvE.
The first ever RPG with no roles , yey!
Never in my post i said anything about bringing the tank/dps/healer trinity in gw2. I do want that builds other than dmg to be viable in gw2, it’s different. Control builds are a joke in pve (death is the best cc atm) , hopefully the new defiant will change that, the support role is a little bit better but still lackluster.
The wvw and spvp meta is always changing. Looking foward for pve changes in the expansion.
Pvp meta changes because the balance team balances skill and traits based on their pvp performance.
The first ever RPG with no roles , yey!
Never in my post i said anything about bringing the tank/dps/healer trinity in gw2. I do want that builds other than dmg to be viable in gw2, it’s different. Control builds are a joke in pve (death is the best cc atm) , hopefully the new defiant will change that, the support role is a little bit better but still lackluster.
There are no pure damage, control or support builds.
There….are…no…roles…in…PvE.
The first ever RPG with no roles , yey!
Never in my post i said anything about bringing the tank/dps/healer trinity in gw2. I do want that builds other than dmg to be viable in gw2, it’s different. Control builds are a joke in pve (death is the best cc atm) , hopefully the new defiant will change that, the support role is a little bit better but still lackluster.
Actually aside from MMORPGs and a few RPGs that try to imitate MMORPG gameplay (and fail badly), very few real RPGs have strictly defined roles. The Trinity system was created for MMORPGs as a reason to “force” people to party up. They “forced” people to form groups that fill specific roles in order to do content as their way of making people work together. In REAL RPGs you are not forced by gameplay to party up.
And if you must know, that “R” in RPGs doesn’t mean what you think it does. “Role playing” means playing the role of someone else -much like acting- not filling a specific gameplay role. Of course people who’ve only played MMORPGs with their Trinity don’t know what actual Role Playing Game means.
And to repeat, real RPGs do not have mandatory roles.
Indurative observation: the origins of that which eventually became known as The Trinity can be traced back to ye olde original Dungeons and Dragons, circa 1974, with the Fighter, Magic-user, and Cleric classes.
The table is a fable.
Indurative observation: the origins of that which eventually became known as The Trinity can be traced back to ye olde original Dungeons and Dragons, circa 1974, with the Fighter, Magic-user, and Cleric classes.
That’s completely false. The “Trinity” with clear defined roles has its origins in the first MMORPGs, something like that was never a part of RPGs. A clear Trinity was never used any type of “Trinity” in any Dungeons and Dragons game, the only DnD edition that tried to “Force” some kind of Trinity was the 4th edition (had some more clearly defined Tanks and Healers) guess how the DnD community called it?
They called it WoW in DnD, and the edition failed miserably to attract older role players that didn’t want something like WoW (and its garbage trinity role system) in their RPGs.
With my many years of RPG experience, I’ve never ever created a party together with my friends with clearly defined roles. “Hey one of us needs to make a Healer and another one a Tank” was (and is) never a part of an actual RPG experience.
Indurative observation: the origins of that which eventually became known as The Trinity can be traced back to ye olde original Dungeons and Dragons, circa 1974, with the Fighter, Magic-user, and Cleric classes.
That’s completely false. The “Trinity” with clear defined roles has its origins in the first MMORPGs, something like that was never a part of RPGs. A clear Trinity was never used any type of “Trinity” in any Dungeons and Dragons game, the only DnD edition that tried to “Force” some kind of Trinity was the 4th edition (had some more clearly defined Tanks and Healers) guess how the DnD community called it?
They called it WoW in DnD, and the edition failed miserably to attract older role players that didn’t want something like WoW (and its garbage trinity role system) in their RPGs.
With my many years of RPG experience, I’ve never ever created a party together with my friends with clearly defined roles. “Hey one of us needs to make a Healer and another one a Tank” was (and is) never a part of an actual RPG experience.
That’s very interesting. Nevertheless, the original D&D Fighter, Magic-user, and Cleric classes remain the source — the template, one might even say — of that which eventually came to be called The Trinity.
The table is a fable.
Yeah well, I don’t want anything under my smoke/dark/fire fields ;p
For shame! Light and water fields are mega amazeballs. Water gives healing and light can give retaliation and condition removal.
And why is that a bad thing? Allowing people with any stats to Support well makes Support even better.
It’s not objectively bad. GW2 removing roles like they did was an interesting experiment if nothing else.
But lack of roles is a commonly cited reason for players not sticking with the game. The world, story, etc. are fun but combat is very one dimensional. It’s all about DPS.
Many players have a preference for one of the roles GW2 doesn’t support. For them the game has significantly less long term appeal. Maybe good enough to buy and play through the story content but that’s all.
My fear is this: That nothing more will be done to completely flesh out the PVE combat complexity by continuing to add to the complexity of combat in order to put together teams that use a trinity system (in which trinity lite is an option but not required) and instead we’ll see groups of all guardians, warriors, and now revenants in these dungeons and if you aren’t one of those three they’ll kick you at every opportunity.
.
Right now zerker is an option but not required. What is the problem of making trynity an option but not required? Also almost every class can spec for a support role if they want. I don’t see people kicking other classes because of that. Right now we have necro as a useless class for speed runs anyway.
The wvw and spvp meta is always changing. Looking foward for pve changes in the expansion.
That’s a myth on two fronts. 1: we’ve heard and felt the effects of zerker on the community for years now so it’s not as optional as you claim. 2: trinity lite wouldn’t be a requirement with a few tweaks they can make it like the trinity lite of NWO in which it’s not required but is still a benefit because they have the underpinnings of it already in their game (dodging and self healing) but support/cc/other damage types haven’t reached the stage of allowing for it yet.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
Indurative observation: the origins of that which eventually became known as The Trinity can be traced back to ye olde original Dungeons and Dragons, circa 1974, with the Fighter, Magic-user, and Cleric classes.
That’s completely false. The “Trinity” with clear defined roles has its origins in the first MMORPGs, something like that was never a part of RPGs. A clear Trinity was never used any type of “Trinity” in any Dungeons and Dragons game, the only DnD edition that tried to “Force” some kind of Trinity was the 4th edition (had some more clearly defined Tanks and Healers) guess how the DnD community called it?
They called it WoW in DnD, and the edition failed miserably to attract older role players that didn’t want something like WoW (and its garbage trinity role system) in their RPGs.
With my many years of RPG experience, I’ve never ever created a party together with my friends with clearly defined roles. “Hey one of us needs to make a Healer and another one a Tank” was (and is) never a part of an actual RPG experience.
That’s very interesting. Nevertheless, the original D&D Fighter, Magic-user, and Cleric classes remain the source — the template, one might even say — of that which eventually came to be called The Trinity.
You’re absolutely right. It’s originally from tabletop RPGs but most of the young people wouldn’t recognize that because it’s really not as popular today as it was years ago, but yes it absolutely predates any electronic game out period!
The other thing I find funny is when people keep spreading the myth that adding it as an option to any game will somehow instantly make it a requirement, that’s not the case several games already have it and their design is better for it. You have a role to play in those cases and it keeps their players coming back and playing more often. As a side note anyone who tries to claim falsely that it’s the fault of the player who happens to be in a support role while doing dungeons is laughed off of the forums because the design clearly places the survival role on the player in the DPS role using the defenses of their class rather than the support role that has some strong healing choices to help control the field.
The exact same thing could happen here but instead we have terribly weak healing roles that make them not viable in PVE and 0 tank roles entirely. A little tweaking to their system in the spirit of things like taunt could improve this game’s pve gameplay immensely without completely destroying the game making it a requirement so these people are really doing themselves a disservice by spreading falsehoods.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
This needs to be addressed actually because I think it’s a very real possibility if the development team doesn’t complete the fleshing out of the combat system by continuing to fix inherent combat issues like condi stacking and support weakness in PVE.
My fear is this: That nothing more will be done to completely flesh out the PVE combat complexity by continuing to add to the complexity of combat in order to put together teams that use a trinity system (in which trinity lite is an option but not required) and instead we’ll see groups of all guardians, warriors, and now revenants in these dungeons and if you aren’t one of those three they’ll kick you at every opportunity.
That’s what I see coming unless major changes continue down the path started with the addition of Taunt in PVE.
Support weakness? I wasn’t aware that aegis, fury, vigor, condi cleanse, protection, reflects, regen and might were weak. Support means many things to different people and in this game support is fine. Remember this game doesn’t have healers so trying to be one won’t work well! Also if you exclude all classes except warrior and guardian from the game currently your group is got a very bad comp. However condi stacking is an issue but I doubt Anet will doing anything about it.
Regen is a pathetically weak boon, you shouldn’t include it there.
Contrary to both of your opinions, regen does scale off of healing power. Your healing power. If regen is weak, its because you aren’t equipping Healing at all. I’m quite happy with my 300+ health a second. And I certainly don’t want it based off the Healing of the caster, otherwise I’d be getting everyone else’s “useless” regens.
Actually no, if you look at the math you’ll see how it doesn’t really scale much at all with the plus to healing on many classes, there’s also the problem of no crits. This problem actually affects condition damage as well and has been covered at length way early in the game’s development right after launch when people first noticed the changes they implemented after Nov 2012 when they announced ascended and had not yet started to balance PVP without directly affecting PVE stats and mechanics. It’s well documented.
All these myths aside: They can improve scaling, they can improve burst healing, and they can improve conditions and I sincerely hope they do before releasing HoT because now is the time to improve for all time your PVE combat which definitely feels uninteresting and without purpose.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
Where’s HoT in this thread?
Actually no, if you look at the math you’ll see how it doesn’t really scale much at all with the plus to healing on many classes
It does. The problem is you’re not looking at the whole picture.
This is regen’s healing power scaling.
130 + (0.125 * Healing Power) per second
Yes, .125 is very low in comparison to some abilities which scale up to at least 1.0 (could be some with higher). But what you’re not taking into consideration is those other abilities don’t fire off every single second. Most of them have cooldowns well in excess of 10 seconds.
Over a 10 second period regeneration does 1300 healing + 1.25 * Healing Power.
Do the same conversion (based on cooldown) for any other healing ability in the game and you see regen’s scales quite well with healing power.
Where’s HoT in this thread?
That’s actually the million dollar question – is HoT going to do anything to address these issues? Which is being asked because in anti-trinity GW2 HoT is introducing taunts.
That has a lot of people wondering what other changes HoT might introduce on this front.
That’s actually the million dollar question – is HoT going to do anything to address these issues? Which is being asked because in anti-trinity GW2 HoT is introducing taunts.
That has a lot of people wondering what other changes HoT might introduce on this front.
How is gw version of taunt related to trinity? You cannot taunt a single boss.
How is gw version of taunt related to trinity?
Tanks taunt. Tanks are part of trinity design. GW2 is introducing taunts.
You cannot taunt a single boss.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forced_Engagement
Launch a chain at your target. When the chain connects with a foe, it slows and taunts them.
How is gw version of taunt related to trinity?
Tanks taunt. Tanks are part of trinity design. GW2 is introducing taunts.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forced_Engagement
Launch a chain at your target. When the chain connects with a foe, it slows and taunts them.
http://youtu.be/xUjrrc5aj2k?t=30m11s
Here they state that it is not like taunt from other MMOs. Also, all CCs do to bosses will be reducing the break bar, and then the boss goes into a state where it is completely immune to CCs while something specific happens.
Yeah I didn’t want to post the rote taunt speech for these, but here it is:
1) Taunt in GW2 is a control effect similar to stun or daze or fear. This means it is not a condition that can be cleansed, but it also means that defiance is certain to apply to it (also stun breaks, but I’m not sure if any enemies use stun breaks).
2) Even if you break defiance, and the boss is one that has susceptibility when broken (as compared to a special effect), taunt is missing the primary function of traditional taunts, in that it doesn’t change your position in the threat calculation (except for a small boost from proximity). Thus it cannot be used effectively to control threat the way a standard taunt does.
http://youtu.be/xUjrrc5aj2k?t=30m11s
Here they state that it is not like taunt from other MMOs.
They may use those exact words but it’s not accurate or they wouldn’t call it a taunt.
I think what’s accurate to say is that it is not exactly the same as taunts from other MMOs. But it has the same basic function – to draw attacks away from other players onto yourself.
This is one the key tools of a tank.
Ergo it’s introduction into GW2 is a clear step back from their no-trinity stance.
Also, all CCs do to bosses will be reducing the break bar, and then the boss goes into a state where it is completely immune to CCs while something specific happens.
There’s a lot more to the game than bosses.
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