Guild Wars 2

This isnt feedback on DH exclusively so instead of writing this in the feed back thread i will start a separate one.

This has been suggested before that the cd on courage and resolve are way to long. These are the unique profession defining mechanics and they should have short cool downs and not cool downs more suitable for elite skills. Class defining mechanics should be used frequently, other wise its the skills with the lowest cd that defines the profession.

In the light of the dragon hunter i think this is even more evident. A gapcloser (very minor heal) with 60s cd and a 3s? deflecting shield on 90s is cd just way to long.

Justice is fine as it is but 25-35s would be more suitable for a gapcloser and maybe 45-55s for the shield.

Instead of adding huge cool downs use casting time and duration to balance skills.

One thing that’s not been talked about enough is how we are getting back stats on the traitlines that had class specific stats like how investing in the virtues line gave virtue recharge. 1 of the new traits gives 15% recharge but that’s it. And with new system ur invested in whole virtues tree for that 15% rather than only requiring 3 points in the tree to get that with the old system.

OP has a point…

Achrisos.1360:

One thing that’s not been talked about enough is how we are getting back stats on the traitlines that had class specific stats like how investing in the virtues line gave virtue recharge.

That’s not true. Anet said that half these profession-specific bonuses will become baseline and the other half is given if you take the related specialization (virtues for Guardian, Arcana for Elementalist and so on).

Additionally to Brutaly’s suggestions which I agree with – if they do away with Virtue Recharge Rate ( which just seems to confuse people ) and just make it a flat cooldown reduction then we’d naturally gain a further 4-5% off current rates.

The trend with the new utilities and weapons ( aswell as new class mechanics like the Revenant ) is to have much lower cooldowns than previously – true, we don’t have to worry about energy management, but I think a reduction to the guardian class mechanic recharge isn’t unreasonable. This would help get us away from a “one use per fight” skill set

Tarsius.3170:

This would help get us away from a “one use per fight” skill set

This pinpoints the problem perfectly. In pvp its not even one use per fight when it comes to resolve and courage. VoC and VoR is often on cd when you reach the next cap zone.

I understand it can be an issue balancing this for pve (aegis) but for wvw and pvp reduced cd wouldnt make virtues overpowered but it would be much more fun to actually have buttons to push.

Isn’t part of the point that you are supposed to think about when to use them? Not just blindly use them as soon as you enter a fight and then be able to pop them again without thinking again soon after.

New DH grandmaster trait …. Chronohunter. Ever time you use a skill against a chronomancer your virtues are recharged by 10%

lordkrall.7241:

Isn’t part of the point that you are supposed to think about when to use them? Not just blindly use them as soon as you enter a fight and then be able to pop them again without thinking again soon after.

Absolutely!

But my point is that a 600 leap and a 130 radius shield isnt worth having 60s and 90s cd. The leap is actually not much better than 1h swords blink (10s cd) and since the shield doesn’t deflect aoe its worse then wall of reflection (32s cd), especially since consecrations will be ranged in HoT.

It isnt justified to have elite cool-downs on minor skills.

What would be justified?
Well i think:
20s on justice
30s on resolve
40 on courage

And they are still weak even though justice seems pretty nifty but that skill is o na moderate cd and there are plenty of traits to increase the frequence of use.

Compare with the Revenant with a 240 radius deflect, 6s duration and 12s cd.

But one also need to take the passive effect into account when using the active ability, thus lowering the cool-down might also require looking at and changing the passive values as well.

lordkrall.7241:

But one also need to take the passive effect into account when using the active ability, thus lowering the cool-down might also require looking at and changing the passive values as well.

im a bit tired so it might be me but i dont understand your point here.

When we activate a virtue we sacrifice the passive to get the active. This also means the more often we use the active the less powerful the passive becomes.

And the passive are there to compensate for our low healthpool imo.

And tbh 84 in regen and random aegis is just weak in pvp and wvw.

Sidenote, also notice that anet added casting times to the virtues in HoT.

Yes, you sacrifice the passives. But with a shorter cooldown that means the sacrifice is lessened since the passive effect will be up and running faster than before.

Is it bad that the virtues are the only class mechanic i dont use? i mean..i never activate them. They just arent that great really, i dont trait for them of course..but compared to the classes i main, using them just doesnt seem to be a huge benefit.

Brutaly.6257:

lordkrall.7241:

Isn’t part of the point that you are supposed to think about when to use them? Not just blindly use them as soon as you enter a fight and then be able to pop them again without thinking again soon after.

Absolutely!

But my point is that a 600 leap and a 130 radius shield isnt worth having 60s and 90s cd. The leap is actually not much better than 1h swords blink (10s cd) and since the shield doesn’t deflect aoe its worse then wall of reflection (32s cd), especially since consecrations will be ranged in HoT.

It isnt justified to have elite cool-downs on minor skills.

What would be justified?
Well i think:
20s on justice
30s on resolve
40 on courage

And they are still weak even though justice seems pretty nifty but that skill is o na moderate cd and there are plenty of traits to increase the frequence of use.

Compare with the Revenant with a 240 radius deflect, 6s duration and 12s cd.

20s may work on justice however resolve & courage could stand to be a little longer.

Maybe 40s for resolve & 60 for courage.

Courage may not seem great on its own outside of PvE but with the proper traits & stats it can be very useful.

At least that is without changing the passive & active for resolve/courage.

We’ll need to see what the final form of “Hunter’s Protection” might be too.

I hope their comment about reworking it actually meant they should add more useful effects to it.

Protection + a generous CD reduction + condition cleanse might make it worth taking above the other two

Tarsius.3170:

We’ll need to see what the final form of “Hunter’s Protection” might be too.

I hope their comment about reworking it actually meant they should add more useful effects to it.

Protection + a generous CD reduction + condition cleanse might make it worth taking above the other two

We often see eye to eye on stuff in this game but i dont think we should wait.

The issue is that with the introduction of HoT you will be forced to invest in an entire traitline to reap the benefits. Or at least thats how i understand it. Am i wrong here?

This means that you cant invest just one point in a line (hey inspired virtues) which actually makes the virtues do anything worth bragging about.

And its in this light virtues has to be balanced. What if a player invest in zeal/radiance/valor/honor and not in virtues/DH!!??

We might be the only profession that actually has to invest in traits to make our class unique mechanics to have any impact.In the old (current) system i could accept it since it was 1 point in inspired virtues to make them alright.

Its the baseline that is the issue, not the traits you can choose to improve the virtues.

Yup – I wasn’t implying that a Virtue recharge reduction change should hinge on just one trait line – I definitely think there should be a sizeable base-line reduction regardless

Brutaly.6257:

The issue is that with the introduction of HoT you will be forced to invest in an entire traitline to reap the benefits. Or at least thats how i understand it. Am i wrong here?

This means that you cant invest just one point in a line (hey inspired virtues) which actually makes the virtues do anything worth bragging about.

That is my understanding too.

One thing I realise is a trapper DH will be obliged to spec Virtues to have any condi clear or stun breakers – which hardly promotes build diversity.

Even with Virtues spec’d, without your suggested cooldown reductions it just won’t provide enough cleansing/breakers to have any kind of sustain. ( So you’ll also be required to have Valor )

I’m assuming of course Absolute Resolution and Indomitable Courage will even apply to their DH counterparts, which was vaguely implied in the Ready Up.

As you say – Guardians have always been extreme underpowered unless you invest in a few key traits – it would really free up the class if at least some of these were baked into the class by default.

Tarsius.3170:

Yup – I wasn’t implying that a Virtue recharge reduction change should hinge on just one trait line – I definitely think there should be a sizeable base-line reduction regardless

Brutaly.6257:

The issue is that with the introduction of HoT you will be forced to invest in an entire traitline to reap the benefits. Or at least thats how i understand it. Am i wrong here?

This means that you cant invest just one point in a line (hey inspired virtues) which actually makes the virtues do anything worth bragging about.

That is my understanding too.

One thing I realise is a trapper DH will be obliged to spec Virtues to have any condi clear or stun breakers – which hardly promotes build diversity.

Even with Virtues spec’d, without your suggested cooldown reductions it just won’t provide enough cleansing/breakers to have any kind of sustain. ( So you’ll also be required to have Valor )

I’m assuming of course Absolute Resolution and Indomitable Courage will even apply to their DH counterparts, which was vaguely implied in the Ready Up.

As you say – Guardians have always been extreme underpowered unless you invest in a few key traits – it would really free up the class if at least some of these were baked into the class by default.

Honor & valor have some condition clear as well tho.

Smiter’s boon could be especially nice while pure of voice will be great for bunkers.

But ya I agree with you, there are some things that should be baked in by default.

Tarsius.3170:

Yup – I wasn’t implying that a Virtue recharge reduction change should hinge on just one trait line – I definitely think there should be a sizeable base-line reduction regardless.

Ok, we are on the same page, as always.

This is also something I’ve wished for. As you said a profession mechanic should have a major defining factor in a profession’s gameplay. How can a profession mechanic be a defining part of you gameplay if your luck to be able to use if once ever 60 seconds.

Also think of these skills at baseline:

Virtue of Justice – 30 sec cooldown

• Passive – Every 5th attack applies Burning for 1 sec.
• Active – You & allies (4) next attack applies Burning for 4 sec, radius 1200, lose the passive effect while on cooldown.

Virtue of Resolve – 60 sec cooldown

• Passive – Small passive heal to yourself every sec.
• Active – AoE small heal that heals yourself & 4 allies, radius 1200, lose the passive effect while on cooldown.

Virtue of Courage – 90 sec cooldown

• Passive – Grants the boon Aegis to yourself every 40 sec.
• Active – Grants Aegis to yourself & allies (4), 20 sec duration, radius 1200, lose the passive effect while on cooldown.

For the baseline power of these skills are these acceptable cooldowns? Would you take these if they were utility skills?

I’ve only every started to find Guardians virtues interesting and start to become worthwhile skills once you start to trait into them. Inspired Virtue feels like it should be part of the baseline skills at the minimum. Even then I would look at reducing the cooldowns to make them feel like a more defining part of your gameplay even without heavy traiting and think your baseline cooldown are about right before cooldown reduction traits.

Brutaly.6257:

20s on justice
30s on resolve
40 on courage

Now I’m like the 20 sec on VoJ and to note with VoJ burning is now going to stack & this will most likely mean reduce dmg for 1 stack of burning compared to now. You also have to hit with a attack to increase your attack count to trigger the passive burning.

Now there could be a skill power level problem when someone traits heavily into Virtues spec only or Virtues + Dragonhunter specs. But I would like Arenanet to remove some of that upper trait power level increase by traits and shift it into the baseline virtues and reduce the over cooldown of virtues for some more active virtue gameplay overall. Let Guardian’s use all of their profession mechanic just as frequently as the other professions.

Lastly VoC applying Aegis – Other then the massive protection to One Hit Mechanics I’ve found Aegis to be quite a weak boon in general gameplay due to only providing protection to only the next attack again you. I’ve always thought it should be a very short duration block. This would give is better gameplay coverage to very fast, channelled & pulsing attacks providing that massive burst damage protection still then just protection against One Hit KOs. Also I feel Blind should operate the same but with you applying it to your foes.

Bezagron.7352:

This is also something I’ve wished for. As you said a profession mechanic should have a major defining factor in a profession’s gameplay. How can a profession mechanic be a defining part of you gameplay if your luck to be able to use if once ever 60 seconds.

Also think of these skills at baseline:

Virtue of Justice – 30 sec cooldown

• Passive – Every 5th attack applies Burning for 1 sec.
• Active – You & allies (4) next attack applies Burning for 4 sec, radius 1200, lose the passive effect while on cooldown.

Virtue of Resolve – 60 sec cooldown

• Passive – Small passive heal to yourself every sec.
• Active – AoE small heal that heals yourself & 4 allies, radius 1200, lose the passive effect while on cooldown.

Virtue of Courage – 90 sec cooldown

• Passive – Grants the boon Aegis to yourself every 40 sec.
• Active – Grants Aegis to yourself & allies (4), 20 sec duration, radius 1200, lose the passive effect while on cooldown.

For the baseline power of these skills are these acceptable cooldowns? Would you take these if they were utility skills?

I’ve only every started to find Guardians virtues interesting and start to become worthwhile skills once you start to trait into them. Inspired Virtue feels like it should be part of the baseline skills at the minimum. Even then I would look at reducing the cooldowns to make them feel like a more defining part of your gameplay even without heavy traiting and think your baseline cooldown are about right before cooldown reduction traits.

Brutaly.6257:

20s on justice
30s on resolve
40 on courage

Now I’m like the 20 sec on VoJ and to note with VoJ burning is now going to stack & this will most likely mean reduce dmg for 1 stack of burning compared to now. You also have to hit with a attack to increase your attack count to trigger the passive burning.

Now there could be a skill power level problem when someone traits heavily into Virtues spec only or Virtues + Dragonhunter specs. But I would like Arenanet to remove some of that upper trait power level increase by traits and shift it into the baseline virtues and reduce the over cooldown of virtues for some more active virtue gameplay overall. Let Guardian’s use all of their profession mechanic just as frequently as the other professions.

Lastly VoC applying Aegis – Other then the massive protection to One Hit Mechanics I’ve found Aegis to be quite a weak boon in general gameplay due to only providing protection to only the next attack again you. I’ve always thought it should be a very short duration block. This would give is better gameplay coverage to very fast, channelled & pulsing attacks providing that massive burst damage protection still then just protection against One Hit KOs. Also I feel Blind should operate the same but with you applying it to your foes.

Excellent write up.

And i think you really point out that we (and anet) should be looking at the baseline of these skills and those are seriously bad.

Personally i done some theorycrafting and im considering a honor/valor/zeal symbol bombing staff/bow zerg build and tbh i wouldnt even bother using my virtues for something else than having some buttons to push. They add nothing to the game with such a build and that is just silly for a class mechanic.