Guild Wars 2

The problem is once the defiance bar is broken, the mob goes immune to any defiance bar affecting effects.

So the question is, once that bar irons up, will status effects still apply for the purpose of still allowing traits to proc/function? Or will people have to wait until the bar is uncovered again to start benefiting from their traits?

This is a great change, Robert. Thank you. I echo Zenith’s concern above, however, and hopefully you can address that as well.

This sounds good to me.

And will on-interrupt effect proc if the CC was done while the enemy was channeling (without actually interrupting the enemy)?

I would assume that the foe would still have the Chill/slow/whatever on them, but it just wouldn’t do anything while the bar regrows.

Also, one a note of balance, I would really love to see the developers opinion on this.
I feel like classes have initially been balanced around the idea that they all support their team in a different way:

• by buffing allies (guardians, elementalists, etc…)
• by debuffing enemies (necromancer, thief etc…)

Isn’t it completely unfair that most important PvE enemies are immune to debuffing while buffing remains as strong as usual? Why is blind not ok while aegis is? Weakness not ok, Protection ok? Those effects are supposed to be a different side of the same thing.

I think this is one of the main thing that has been hurting the PvE balance since the beginning of the game, especially for classes like necromancer who are amazing at debuffing but are completely ignored by bosses.

For example I think:

• the vulnerability duration should be decreased a lot on bosses, because it is too easy to stack 25 vuln without even trying
• the might duration should also be decreased around bosses (area debuff?) because this is also too easy to stack

and all other buff/debuff should be balanced the same so that they cannot be full time without a minimum investment AND make sure that both the buff and the debuff are as valuable.

I wish that soft CC’s would scale with the remaining portion of the defiance bar. For instance, chill would slow the enemy by 25% of the usual amount if 75% of the defiance bar remained, 50% of the usual amount if 50% of the bar remained, and 75% if only 25% of the bar remained. In that way, soft CC’s could remain relevant. Even blind could scale in this way, giving an increasing chance to cause an attack to miss as the defiance bar dwindled.

spoj.9672:

I dont really see the point in having soft CC’s if they dont actually provide unique effects. This is a bad change. It removes a layer of complexity to the game. And prevents certain approaches. Such as using chill and cripple to create a chance for players to recover by giving time to create distance (the entire purpose of those conditions).

Basically we have a ton of conditions in game but none of them work on anything anymore. It was bad enough that blind didnt work on bosses (although justified because of how overpowered it is). Now the rest wont work either. This is a step back.

I can understand you wanting to restrict these conditions due to broken effects like slow and blind. But that doesnt mean you should do it for every soft cc condition. Weakness, chill and cripple should all work as intended and not effect the breakbar. Immob is debatable.

This restriction further emphasizes the dominance of boons over conditions. And right before we even get the chance to see if harder content actually closes the gap and makes debuff conditions desirable. People were looking forward to debuffer classes maybe having a chance to compete with heavy buffers. Thats being completely shut down before it even started with this.

Really unhappy with this change. And i really hope you reconsider. Even if it means compromising and making some of those conditions work with reduced effectiveness on the big bosses.

Also whats the point in having unique hard CC’s and soft CC’s if they all provide the same predetermined effect/stun on breakbar destruction. Its dull. Please at least spare soft CC’s from this fate.

Completely agree.

I agree that some balance must be brought between boons and conditions.

Why does protection provide the % damage reduction, but weakness can’t work on a boss? After all, weakness is actually a worse form of protection, RNG.

And I don’t understand why you would introduce slow to the mesmer only to have it be ineffective in PvE.

Instead maybe you should consider what these conditions do in PvE and split balance so that these conditions/debuffs be allowed to work in PvE and compete with boons as equals rather than as crappy a inverse of boons.

In fact while we’re at this, boon stacking by warriors/elementalists/and guardians needs the heavy nerf hammer. These classes not only max stack with ease on themselves, they share it with the group as well, and not at great cost.

Might stacking should be a group effort that takes allies bringing utilities and traits where all FIVE of them work to build 25 might stacks for SOME time, not a PSEA warrior and elementalist capping the boons for an entire fight with perma fire fields and the brokenness that is Phalanx Strength.

Good to hear. At least my mesmer Domination traits will continue to benefit I hope

spoj.9672:

I dont really see the point in having soft CC’s if they dont actually provide unique effects. This is a bad change. It removes a layer of complexity to the game. And prevents certain approaches. Such as using chill and cripple to create a chance for players to recover by giving time to create distance (the entire purpose of those conditions).

Basically we have a ton of conditions in game but none of them work on anything anymore. It was bad enough that blind didnt work on bosses (although justified because of how overpowered it is). Now the rest wont work either. This is a step back.

I can understand you wanting to restrict these conditions due to broken effects like slow and blind. But that doesnt mean you should do it for every soft cc condition. Weakness, chill and cripple should all work as intended and not effect the breakbar. Immob is debatable.

This restriction further emphasizes the dominance of boons over conditions. And right before we even get the chance to see if harder content actually closes the gap and makes debuff conditions desirable. People were looking forward to debuffer classes maybe having a chance to compete with heavy buffers. Thats being completely shut down before it even started with this.

Really unhappy with this change. And i really hope you reconsider. Even if it means compromising and making some of those conditions work with reduced effectiveness on the big bosses.

Also whats the point in having unique hard CC’s and soft CC’s if they all provide the same predetermined effect/stun on breakbar destruction. Its dull. Please at least spare soft CC’s from this fate.

I too echo this sentiment. If debuff conditions do the same thing as hard CC, why even bother bringing them at all? You can’t relieve pressure on your allies and it dumbs down the game. Just bring someone with heavy hard CC instead and forget actual debuffing even exists. More efficient and probably more damaging anyway.

Plus, this really kills any shot of Necros being wanted in raids or other future content. Necros probably have the best and most reliable access to these debuffing conditions, but against Defiant foes, a Hammer warrior will deal more damage to both health and defiance bar as well as bringing superior party support.

for the sake of exact clarification when you used the chill example it was said that the movement speed won’t be slowed does this also apply to the CD increase or does the CD increase still apply.[i know it mostly goes with out saying but can never be to sure]

I applaud you for our effort in this, however I agree with Zenith here. What is the use of bringing anything other than might stacking specks into PvE when all you get (now) is the benefit of a dot when facing a break bar. In WvW or PvP there are reasons to bring say a pure cc build, but within PvE you are self neutering yourself by investing into these conditions.

Will specific mobs receive weaknesses to specific control effects or conditions that players will need to understand and build a strategy around?

For example, burning does no damage to a fire elemental’s defiance bar while stuns do normal damage and chills do double.

I have some reservations on the approach Robert describes. It sounds a lot like, “Just do whatever. It’s all the same. Auto-attack and mash all the buttonz.”

Would it not be more interesting if a group had to set up flame blasts to burst down an ice monster? The combo system in this game is not as complicated as other games.

Anchoku.8142:

Will specific mobs receive weaknesses to specific control effects or conditions that players will need to understand and build a strategy around?

For example, burning does no damage to a fire elemental’s defiance bar while stuns do normal damage and chills do double.

I have some reservations on the approach Robert describes. It sounds a lot like, “Just do whatever. It’s all the same. Auto-attack and mash all the buttonz.”

Would it not be more interesting if a group had to set up flame blasts to burst down an ice monster? The combo system in this game is not as complicated as other games.

Interesting and fun are different things. Yes, it would be cool except for class that could not provide those flame blast. Then this so call interesting mechanic punishes flameless classes.

silvermember.8941:

Anchoku.8142:

Will specific mobs receive weaknesses to specific control effects or conditions that players will need to understand and build a strategy around?

For example, burning does no damage to a fire elemental’s defiance bar while stuns do normal damage and chills do double.

I have some reservations on the approach Robert describes. It sounds a lot like, “Just do whatever. It’s all the same. Auto-attack and mash all the buttonz.”

Would it not be more interesting if a group had to set up flame blasts to burst down an ice monster? The combo system in this game is not as complicated as other games.

Interesting and fun are different things. Yes, it would be cool except for class that could not provide those flame blast. Then this so call interesting mechanic punishes flameless classes.

I know and you are correct. I main Necro, which currenly has staff AA for a finisher and a bunch of odd fields. There is no reason not to expect one party member initiate a combo and another, or several, finish it. Arenanet just has to review the tool sets. Mobs can be strong or weak to a number of things and players should be expected to choose the right professions aand skills.

I am not suggesting players cannot blast fire fields for might all day long, just that combinations do something original. Right now, the game de-emphasizes everything but might.

So what does this mean for blind and weakness? Those don’t effect movement so are they considered CC?

Lexan.5930:

So what does this mean for blind and weakness? Those don’t effect movement so are they considered CC?

Yes. All debuff conditions are affected by the defiance bar. Basically all of them slightly reduce the defiance bar a bit on application, but their debuff effect does not apply to a boss.

The problem is that debuffs were designed with only PvP in mind, not with PvE design in mind.

I mean, imagine a 66% recharge increase on a boss’s attack sequence. It’d be too strong, as would blind. Admittedly weakness SHOULD work just like protection currently reduces boss damage, but a part of weakness is wasted as bosses don’t have endurance bars or dodge often for it to matter.

I just think they need to rethink what these debuffing conditions do in PvE and bring some of that wonderful GW1 PvE combat back, where each class and its abilities had defined identity.

Boons and Conditions actually were for the worse of the game. They condensed effects, which means some classes were made redundant as some other class could bring the same effect, so you make a decision on WHO brings the effects the best, in which case it’s the elementalist, guardian, and warrior (and in the case of blind, thief).

Now recall GW1. Each class had identity and skill effects meaningful in PvE that another class could not eclipse/substitute. Mesmers were your masters of interrupts, and interrupts MATTERED. You then had your AoE classes in elementalist, necromancers brought orders and corruptions with either strong debuffs and potent single target. You had the more traditional tanks like warrior and dervish and even to a point assassin.

And then you had your buffers like ritualist and paragon and your healers in monks and ritualists.

What we have now thanks to boons and their supremacy, and the blandness of conditions in PvE, is Guardian/Elementalist/Warrior supremacy, with niche buffing by mesmer (in the form of quickness boon and alacrity) and stealth skips/blind spam by thief.

Conditions as a whole in PvE are a disappointment, and with the ease Phalanx Strength Warriors and Persisting Flames elementalists cap boons to their highest potential, we also make some boon utility from other classes redundant.

Now nobody cares if a ranger brings some extra might with jungle stalker or Clarion Bond when an ele/warrior can keep the group capped far more easily and effectively.

I don’t know how I feel about this.

I really want soft CC to impair movement speed. To slow the boss that is chasing down a ranged player.

Seems like a pretty fair compromise, if it goes in. Will this be available in BWE3?

Silverkey.2078:

And will on-interrupt effect proc if the CC was done while the enemy was channeling (without actually interrupting the enemy)?

Yeah, I really hope a similar compromise can be reached for interrupts. To be honest, though, I don’t have an idea for one that’s intuitive, practical, and balanced. The Defiance bar really complicates the normal interrupt mechanic. Interrupts by definition cancel skill use, so only one person can get the interrupt proc; but with a Defiance bar in play, a whole team can potentially interrupt the same skill use and stack procs on it. The best thing I can think of is to let each player get one interrupt proc off per interrupt bar (without stopping the skill use), but that could potentially add a lot of overhead for the server that’s tracking the fight.

All these conditions are great and usefull in pvp. They feel overpowered till useless in normal pve figths cause normal monsters never evade and attack very sowly. In bossfights they are completely useless so why even bring them into the fight. If normal mobs would behave and evade much more like real players in pvp these conditions would be make much more sense. If bosses could suffer from these effects it would help some classes and builds. Maybe they can get all consequences from debuffs while the boss is broken or take the full consequences at any given time but have reduced debuffduration that scales with the players around. So a coordinated group can chill, slow, cripple, blind etc. the boss if they use the same condition at the same time against the boss but cant upkeep a permanent debuff.

Completely agree with spoj about a layer of complexity being removed from the game.

I find it ridiculous for it to not be possible to actually chill bosses.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

spoj.9672:

I dont really see the point in having soft CC’s if they dont actually provide unique effects. This is a bad change. It removes a layer of complexity to the game. And prevents certain approaches. Such as using chill and cripple to create a chance for players to recover by giving time to create distance (the entire purpose of those conditions).

Basically we have a ton of conditions in game but none of them work on anything anymore. It was bad enough that blind didnt work on bosses (although justified because of how overpowered it is). Now the rest wont work either. This is a step back.

I can understand you wanting to restrict these conditions due to broken effects like slow and blind. But that doesnt mean you should do it for every soft cc condition. Weakness, chill and cripple should all work as intended and not effect the breakbar. Immob is debatable.

This restriction further emphasizes the dominance of boons over conditions. And right before we even get the chance to see if harder content actually closes the gap and makes debuff conditions desirable. People were looking forward to debuffer classes maybe having a chance to compete with heavy buffers. Thats being completely shut down before it even started with this.

Really unhappy with this change. And i really hope you reconsider. Even if it means compromising and making some of those conditions work with reduced effectiveness on the big bosses.

Also whats the point in having unique hard CC’s and soft CC’s if they all provide the same predetermined effect/stun on breakbar destruction. Its dull. Please at least spare soft CC’s from this fate.

I too echo this sentiment. If debuff conditions do the same thing as hard CC, why even bother bringing them at all? You can’t relieve pressure on your allies and it dumbs down the game. Just bring someone with heavy hard CC instead and forget actual debuffing even exists. More efficient and probably more damaging anyway.

Plus, this really kills any shot of Necros being wanted in raids or other future content. Necros probably have the best and most reliable access to these debuffing conditions, but against Defiant foes, a Hammer warrior will deal more damage to both health and defiance bar as well as bringing superior party support.

Completely aggree with both.

Silverkey.2078:

And will on-interrupt effect proc if the CC was done while the enemy was channeling (without actually interrupting the enemy)?

Good question. Any word on interrupt traits triggering with the defiance bar?

Does the defiance destroying effect stack in duration or intensity? Because if it does in duration we may forget a good scalable breakbar system.

This is bad news. Debuffs must be as valuable as buffs. Period. If they are too strong reduce their effectiveness, but they should stand on equal ground with buffs.

This goes against a.net stated philosophy that everything works as advertised in every game mode. We can’t have split balance between PvE/PvP but it’s fine to make debuffs ineffective in 90% of high end PvE?

A huge chunk of the instanced PvE profession imbalance comes from the imbalance between buffs and debuffs. Even if Icebows and Elementalists were deleted from the game it wouldn’t make Necromancers, Rangers, Mesmers and Engineers more valuable (note: I’m not actually asking this). Make debuffs valuable in their advertised way without trivializing the content. Yes, the break-bar at least adds a use to previously ineffective debuffs, but if they do the same as hard CC why should I choose them? Bring a weapon or profession with a lot of hard CC and don’t bother with debuffs. You will still hit the defiance bar while doing more damage and giving superior party support with buffs.

I honestly don’t understand why they fear debuffs when buffs are melting the hardest bosses in 20 seconds flat.

Would it be possible to implement percentage breakpoints in the bar that apply something similar to a soft-cc? Like at every 25%, there’s an x-second -33% MS or something.

Hello, thanks for communication about this.
There’s pros and cons about this.

Pros : soft CC having even more usefulness towards break bar and interesting applying of a degen to it

Cons : Unability to slow the movements of the ennemy (cripple/chill) which is an interesting mechanic and even worse, it makes the slow condition totally useless (and thus, a chronomancer will feel very cheated by this, what’s the point of creating a specialization based on slow if you can’t apply the slow to any boss ???)

Robert Gee.9246:

There have been a lot of questions coming up recently from several different profession forums regarding the use of soft-CC effects (cripple, chill, slow, etc) on bosses with the new Defiance system in HoT. We have a solution in the works for this but we wanted to make a post to explain how it’s going to work.

A hard-CC like a stun, daze or knockback will deal direct damage to a defiance bar, lowering it by a flat amount based on the duration of the CC. As an example, a 2 second stun on a 6 second defiance bar will take off 33% of the bar.

A soft-CC like chill, slow, or cripple will deal damage over time to a defiance bar for the duration of the debuff. Additionally soft-CC effects will apply to the creature for the purposes of triggering traits but not apply their debuff effect. As an example, chilling a foe with a defiance bar will cause their defiance meter to degenerate over time and place the chill debuff on their status bar, which will allow a Reaper to benefit from the damage reduction effect of the trait Cold Shoulder, but it will not affect the creature’s movement speed.

The exact numbers on the degeneration rates for each type of soft-CC are still in flux, but we hope this helps answer some of the questions about the viability of certain elite specializations in HoT.

EDIT: Even if the defiance bar is not vulnerable to CC, the conditions will still apply for the purposes of triggering traits.

How does fear work in this category? Is it a hard or a soft CC? also how will the damage effect of terror trait work?

Liege Tai.8249:

How does fear work in this category? Is it a hard or a soft CC? also how will the damage effect of terror trait work?

Fear is currently considered as Hard CC because it disables your skills, but I guess it will be treated as Soft CC because of the Terror trait.

In my opinion Fear should be the only DoT that you can apply to a defiance bar. Debuff should just apply their stated effect, albeit weakened if it’s too strong. Otherwise Soft CC debuffs will be like Vulnerability: everyone has some so there is no place for a dedicated build or a profession with good Vulnerability application (e.g. Necromancers and Engineers).

spoj.9672:

I dont really see the point in having soft CC’s if they dont actually provide unique effects. This is a bad change. It removes a layer of complexity to the game. And prevents certain approaches. Such as using chill and cripple to create a chance for players to recover by giving time to create distance (the entire purpose of those conditions).

Basically we have a ton of conditions in game but none of them work on anything anymore. It was bad enough that blind didnt work on bosses (although justified because of how overpowered it is). Now the rest wont work either. This is a step back.

I can understand you wanting to restrict these conditions due to broken effects like slow and blind. But that doesnt mean you should do it for every soft cc condition. Weakness, chill and cripple should all work as intended and not effect the breakbar. Immob is debatable.

This restriction further emphasizes the dominance of boons over conditions. And right before we even get the chance to see if harder content actually closes the gap and makes debuff conditions desirable. People were looking forward to debuffer classes maybe having a chance to compete with heavy buffers. Thats being completely shut down before it even started with this.

Really unhappy with this change. And i really hope you reconsider. Even if it means compromising and making some of those conditions work with reduced effectiveness on the big bosses.

Also whats the point in having unique hard CC’s and soft CC’s if they all provide the same predetermined effect/stun on breakbar destruction. Its dull. Please at least spare soft CC’s from this fate.

100% agree with this. You have buffing classes and debuffing classes that are supposed to fill the support role.

Buffers keep getting stronger and stronger while debuffers keep getting more and more useless. Already no one wants necros since their main function of debuffing the enemy is so weak. The solution is not to make it even weaker.

Please reconsider this change, or make break bars significantly more important in fights. If a boss could only be damaged after breaking a very large break bar, it would at least make these changes desirable in bringing debuff classes.

Please reconsider the idea. You are creating a massive functionality overlap that makes debuff heavy professions irrelevant in high end PvE content.

Just a shower thought here, how about making the bosses we fight move and attack faster natively and not have a break bar but be fully effected by CC. You would then give necros and other debuffers a reason to be taken in a party. Bosses in essence would become much more dangerous at full speed and even though you could burst them down with a power build, having a good CC class along could/would make the fight be much easier.

Might cause some problems when facing them alone, but then again they are bosses and should be quite dangerous. It just seems to me that your approach, although one option, is a bubble gum and coat hanger approach to the problem and a definitive solution should be sought.

edit; clarity

I actually found it rather strange in the last BWE that, between playing a Reaper and playing a Thief of any stripe, I could accidentally drop an entire break bar in a few seconds on Reaper but as a Thief I could hardly make a dent in most of them—I don’t even mean bosses, just the Mordrem Guard with the Hammers couldn’t really be stopped with any of the abilities a Thief brings to the table unless I dumped my entire Initiative bar into two or three Headshots, which momentarily stops a single target doing a single attack.

I’ve been playing a Sword-Pistol Thief since the game launched. I always liked the idea that I didn’t have to be “that kind of Thief” and could stand toe-to-toe with larger, tougher foes and keep them off-balance so they can’t hurt me with interrupts, blinds, and weakness… and now none of those things work in any game mode.

It’s nice that break bars are trying to address the issue in PvE, but even slamming that bar all the way to zero doesn’t really stop a Thief from getting a dirt nap.

My point is, I guess I don’t understand why a successfully empty break bar doesn’t just make the creature vulnerable to CC, and I don’t understand why I can’t be good at the thing I’m specialized in anymore.

My proposed solution is this: Make it so that in a circumstance where a Daze would have successfully interrupted an attack, it should do a significantly larger amount of damage to the Break Bar, or do it’s damage and apply a DoT to it.
It would bring back skillful play and make me useful for a few seconds before I die. Not keep me alive, because I’ve long since lost hope of that, but at least let me help before I’m dead.

Well charging terragriffs are weak to soft CC so the mechanic is there to be used in more enemies.

Not every enemy has a defiance bar so it’s not that big a problem.

I agree with the general idea: this change will increase the gap allready existing between professions.
As it as ben said on so many post in this thread this gap is link to the fact that buffs are always 100% efficient and debuffs are most of the time 90% ineffectives.
It woud be great to have 2 balance team, 1 in PvP and 1 in PvE, kinda like GW1! it would fix a lot of issues imo.
Also to reduce the gap between buff and debuff I always wonder with you can’t find mob/boss with “XX% reduction/buff apply to players”, or mob/boss that use buff corruption,or buff removal.

@emikochan:
In VB you find a lot of mobs with a defiance bar, even standard mobs and every champ ofc. So it is a big problem.

Sadly this game is balance around PvP but what strong in PvP isn’t at all what’s good in PvE or WvW and it works that way most of the time no matter what part of the game you focus on.

PS: I main necro, always have, always will no matter what! And necros, like rangers, really need some love in PvE.

Silverkey.2078:

And will on-interrupt effect proc if the CC was done while the enemy was channeling (without actually interrupting the enemy)?

This is one of my biggest concerns as it destroys almost a third of a mesmers trait functions.

For soft CC in general, I would much prefer seeing a weaker form of CC affect the boss in a unique way. Immob could maybe reduce move speed by 50%. Chill by 33% for move and recharge etc… just half the strength rather than making them generically the same. Or just add condi cleanses to the enemies or a diminishing return resistance to some of these or just the resistance boon itself.

So, does this mean that ANYTHING with a break bar is going to now essentially be immune to the actual effects of things like slow, chill, blind etc? There were things in the beta that were just normal or vet ranking but had a break bar (punishers I think they were call as well as some mounted things). Those should be affected by the individual effects of these conditions. Slow, chill and weakness at the very least.

I am going to agree with Spoj on this one. By making these things simply breakbar fodder, we are negating and essentially trashing mechanics that can be used in boss fights. We are tossing out the potential to have mechanics for which we need the effects of these conditions as counters. Sure, there will probably be trash mob encounters (things that arent legendary rank) where things like this are useful, and thats great.

I also think that categorizing CC as hard and soft CC isnt the proper way to do that and the divisions are causing some over generalizations.

What we have is total mitigation, partial mitigation of varying degrees and effects.

Total mitigation is anything that can be used as an interrupt: stun, knockback/down, daze, fear etc.

partial mitigation would be blind (especially if an attack is broken up into multiple smaller ones), weakness, chill, slow Some of these are stronger than others.

effects would be immobilize and cripple. These do not stop or slow down damage dealt as long as what you are fighting is in range.

Total mitigation should go to a break bar when a break bar phase is active (I will get to that distinctions). Blind, maybe. but I feel the others should allow their effects to go through, perhaps even at reduced effectiveness (not at reduced time) when applied to legendary rank enemies. (with some exceptions, of course, doing this to tequatl would be silly). This should open up some control over the boss as well as open the door for mechanics that are best countered by slow, chill, cripple, immob, and things like that.

EDIT: I also feel that the break bar’s current implementation especially on enemies ranked lower than even champion is a bit unfortunate. When we first heard about breakbars I envisioned a scenario where things functioned like normal until the enemy was getting ready for a big devastating hit. Unfortunately, from what I saw and what is currently the prevailing understanding as seen in the wiki, CC of any kind ONLY affects enemies with a break bar when the breakbar phase is active (goes green) other than that, these enemies are simply immune to CC of any kind. I feel like breakbars should be more difficult to break but only block CC, especially soft CC if it must block those, during this big attack windup time. That said, the scaling in the beta was weird, when scaled up sometimes, like on elites and champs, the breakbars never dipped below 50-60% before it was killed making it a non-mechanic, in other cases like the wyvern, the breakbar was so easy to break, it was, again, a non-mechanic.

tl;dr, I feel that causing “soft cc” to be eaten by a break bar is negating all these soft-cc’s and thus either artificially limiting the potential boss encounters have by simply removing counters to possible mechanics OR it will make encounters artificially harder (but less engaging) by removing a set of tools players have within the encounter.

Slowmelt.8547:

I actually found it rather strange in the last BWE that, between playing a Reaper and playing a Thief of any stripe, I could accidentally drop an entire break bar in a few seconds on Reaper but as a Thief I could hardly make a dent in most of them—I don’t even mean bosses, just the Mordrem Guard with the Hammers couldn’t really be stopped with any of the abilities a Thief brings to the table unless I dumped my entire Initiative bar into two or three Headshots, which momentarily stops a single target doing a single attack.

The amount of break bar “damage” depends on the duration of the hard CC. Headshot is 0.25s which is really nothing… It is probably linear, so you will need 20 head shots to get the same effect as one “deep freeze” from elementalists (actually with the added chill of deep freeze it is probably even worse).

It seems ice bow will still be as broken as it is now…

Silverkey.2078:

Slowmelt.8547:

I actually found it rather strange in the last BWE that, between playing a Reaper and playing a Thief of any stripe, I could accidentally drop an entire break bar in a few seconds on Reaper but as a Thief I could hardly make a dent in most of them—I don’t even mean bosses, just the Mordrem Guard with the Hammers couldn’t really be stopped with any of the abilities a Thief brings to the table unless I dumped my entire Initiative bar into two or three Headshots, which momentarily stops a single target doing a single attack.

The amount of break bar “damage” depends on the duration of the hard CC. Headshot is 0.25s which is really nothing… It is probably linear, so you will need 20 head shots to get the same effect as one “deep freeze” from elementalists (actually with the added chill of deep freeze it is probably even worse).

It seems ice bow will still be as broken as it is now…

That’s what I figured…
Meaning, of course, that it’s useless. I really should just give up on Thief already, but I’ve spent so much effort getting all those bag slots and nice gear…

Robert Gee.9246:

EDIT: Even if the defiance bar is not vulnerable to CC, the conditions will still apply for the purposes of triggering traits.

Does this mean that a daredevil with Impacting Disruption trait who would have interrupted a skill will still apply Pulmonary Impact? If not, that trait is useless against mobs with the defiance bar.

Additionally – Duration of the CC is a huge oversight for short duration interrupt professions such as Thief. It’s just another game mechanic that is a huge advantage for Ele and a huge disadvantage for Thief. Do we really need more buffs to Ele?

With this implementation, a Thief can use an elite Basalisk Venom to reduce the Defiance bar 2 seconds or an Ele can use a utility skill Frost Bow that can reduce the Defiance bar 10 seconds…

I was thinking Daredevil would be the interrupt/break bar profession since they’re getting so many interrupt skills but with the defiance bar going off CC duration that’s completely out of the question. Disrupting Dagger pretty much only interrupts but now we have to use all 3 daggers to reduce the Defiance Bar by 3/4 sec.

This is bad news, because it’s a pretty huge nerf to classes like engineer or necromancer. And it makes a full set of conditions more or less useless.
Making some of the new raid-bosses immune to soft-cc and implementing some fractal-instabilities that make those conditions weaker would be a cool variation, but just removing the effect of those soft-ccs completely is a big step into the wrong direction.

Lendruil.9061:

This is bad news, because it’s a pretty huge nerf to classes like engineer or necromancer. And it makes a full set of conditions more or less useless.
Making some of the new raid-bosses immune to soft-cc and implementing some fractal-instabilities that make those conditions weaker would be a cool variation, but just removing the effect of those soft-ccs completely is a big step into the wrong direction.

You didn’t read it at all, did you?
Soft CC with be a Damage Over Time effect for the Break Bar because it is easier to apply as a rule and can melt entire bars in seconds.

Slowmelt.8547:

Lendruil.9061:

This is bad news, because it’s a pretty huge nerf to classes like engineer or necromancer. And it makes a full set of conditions more or less useless.
Making some of the new raid-bosses immune to soft-cc and implementing some fractal-instabilities that make those conditions weaker would be a cool variation, but just removing the effect of those soft-ccs completely is a big step into the wrong direction.

You didn’t read it at all, did you?
Soft CC with be a Damage Over Time effect for the Break Bar because it is easier to apply as a rule and can melt entire bars in seconds.

And how is that useful with all the abundant hard CC in the game? All this is is a bandaid to allow trait procs to continue working after they decided to make everyting affect the breakbar. It doesnt change the fact that its just rendered all debuff conditions completely useless. It would have been better to have ignored those early suggestions (i assumed it was obvious they were bad ideas and the devs wouldnt implement them) and kept cripple, chill etc separate from breakbars.

And its not even limited to bosses. Veterans and trash mobs are getting breakbars. So where does this leave soft CC?

I suggested another solution in the necro forums if the devs are adamant on making it easy to balance bosses by using this. Make tiered breakbars so veterans, elites, trash mobs and less bosses have different breakbars. Certain tiers would allow certain soft cc’s to work fully without affecting the breakbar. And so on.

spoj.9672:

Slowmelt.8547:

Lendruil.9061:

This is bad news, because it’s a pretty huge nerf to classes like engineer or necromancer. And it makes a full set of conditions more or less useless.
Making some of the new raid-bosses immune to soft-cc and implementing some fractal-instabilities that make those conditions weaker would be a cool variation, but just removing the effect of those soft-ccs completely is a big step into the wrong direction.

You didn’t read it at all, did you?
Soft CC with be a Damage Over Time effect for the Break Bar because it is easier to apply as a rule and can melt entire bars in seconds.

And how is that useful with all the abundant hard CC in the game? All this is is a bandaid to allow trait procs to continue working after they decided to make everyting affect the breakbar. It doesnt change the fact that its just rendered all debuff conditions completely useless. It would have been better to have ignored those early suggestions (i assumed it was obvious they were bad ideas and the devs wouldnt implement them) and kept cripple, chill etc separate from breakbars.

And its not even limited to bosses. Veterans and trash mobs are getting breakbars. So where does this leave soft CC?

I suggested another solution in the necro forums if the devs are adamant on making it easy to balance bosses by using this. Make tiered breakbars so veterans, elites, trash mobs and less bosses have different breakbars. Certain tiers would allow certain soft cc’s to work fully without affecting the breakbar. And so on.

Please, tell me of your woes, oh non-Thief who can actually do damage to break bars.
Tell me about your high health pool, and how you definitely don’t have to try and survive against a target immune to Blind and Weakness who can two- or three-shot you without even being a Veteran. Tell me about how your needing to use DoT on a break bar is a travesty. I will just be over here with my 1/4 second Daze that does nothing, making due as best I can, as Thief mains always must.

The Reaper is GREAT. The core Necromancer is pretty good too.
Don’t be so negative. At least you get love from the devs.

This has nothing to do with Reaper or Necro. This is about several conditions becoming copies of each other. Providing the exact same purpose and losing their designed effect. Its removing a layer of complexity in the game in the favour of easy boss balance and even easier defiance bar destruction.

Non thiefs can already easily deal with break bars with hard CC. Its not something thats unique to thieves. Yes thieves have an advantage with spammable CC. But its not necessary in a group. Soft CC on breakbars is not going to suddenly make soft CC desirable for that role. Its going to be a pointless addition we dont need. While at the same time removing something we may need or want (weakness damage reduction, chill skill recharge increase, cripple/chill movement impairment).

Bosses werent immune to weakness, they had reduced duration on it. But it was incredibly powerful for damage reduction when coupled with protection. Even without it was potentially very good. It just has an RNG component which meant it wasnt 100% reliable like protection is.

And if you want to get into a competition about who is worse at surviving boss encounters you made a big mistake trying to imply thief has it hard compared to Necro. Yes thief with spammable evades, vigor, projectile defence etc, they must have a really hard time… (i probably play thief in PvE more than necro btw). Compared to necro that has to rely on chill and energy sigils to just about scrape enough active defence to not die without being carried by aegis spam.

As I discussed in the very top of the thread, thief and necro are in the same situation on being hurt by that. The only difference is that thieves always brought in

• more damage than necro
• useful abilities in most dungeons runs (stealth).

And those 2 differences means thief is a part of the PvE “meta” while necro isn’t. Necro do have a lot of unique abilities (or a better access to it than many other classes) to bring to a party. The only problem is that 99% of them are partly or totally negated by the PvE design.
Colin said about raids something like “we have a very good combat system, but it is only used to its full extent in PvP. Raids are meant to change that”. Well sorry to say, but this thread is a proof that PvE is not going in the right direction for this statement to be true, quite the opposite.