Guild Wars 2

I’m sure their reasoning was “Veterans will buy the expansion anyway, even if they get mad at first”.

I think they put a price tag that they felt was on par with the rest of the “industry.”

I think at some point, someone within the company brought up the point that new players would probably balk at the idea of having to pay for two games just to be up to date, even if the core game was only $10.

I think someone high up the food chain thought that was a very good point, and so Arena.net had to do some quick reworking of the whole pre-purchase packages.

I think they expected some degree of backlash. I think they might have even expected THIS degree of backlash. But as to what they are doing about it right now inside closed doors… who knows? Maybe they’re expecting the noise to die down (like it usually has when the Internet revolts). Maybe they’re trying to put together some idea to “fix” things.

But one thing I KNOW is that you shouldn’t expect any “fix” (if one is coming) for some time.

chemiclord.3978:

I think they put a price tag that they felt was on par with the rest of the “industry.”

I think at some point, someone within the company brought up the point that new players would probably balk at the idea of having to pay for two games just to be up to date, even if the core game was only $10.

I think someone high up the food chain thought that was a very good point, and so Arena.net had to do some quick reworking of the whole pre-purchase packages.

I think they expected some degree of backlash. I think they might have even expected THIS degree of backlash. But as to what they are doing about it right now inside closed doors… who knows? Maybe they’re expecting the noise to die down (like it usually has when the Internet revolts). Maybe they’re trying to put together some idea to “fix” things.

But one thing I KNOW is that you shouldn’t expect any “fix” (if one is coming) for some time.

the industry standard is 0-50, i actually only saw 50 one time, and it was WoW, and only the latest expansion.
so they priced it as much as the most expensive expansions that exist, not really the industry standard

I believe in hard-work, effort and resolving problems. The truth is: if I ignore all of these and pretend that nothing happened: i should expect and foresee punishments and consequences.

Obviously! Arena net expected and foresee this happening because they did exactly that: ignoring problems-same problems for 2 years+ that many of honest players told them. These players even present many evidence to hope that Arena net will resolve the problems and make serious change. Do you know Arena net response in return for these honest, truthful and concern players were: Punishment: Infraction, Temporary Ban= Ban. That is correct!

So why wouldn’t they not expect and foresee the consequence and punishment for their actions?

Where is the Surprise?

" It is easy to dodge our responsibilities, but we cannot dodge the consequences of dodging our responsibilities "
Sir Josiah Stamp

phys.7689:

the industry standard is 0-50, i actually only saw 50 one time, and it was WoW, and only the latest expansion.
so they priced it as much as the most expensive expansions that exist, not really the industry standard

$50 is on the high end… but for all those paid boxed expansions, $40-$50 is pretty much the “standard.” If you REALLY want to quibble about $10, then be my guest.

I DO believe that $50 was going to be the cover price, with or without the “core” game included, so I find it to be largely a non-starter.

Basandra Skye.4031:

You forget, devata, that you DO still need the base game to play HoT. That much wont ever change, regardless of what ends up being sold. Not to mention unless you’re a sooper-seekret Anet staffer, you, as well as the rest of us, are likely seriously in the dark about what influenced the pricing choices, as well as the choice to totally choke off selling the core game by itself* and bundle it with the HoT purchase.

*They’ve mentioned before shortly after the announcement that all content in the “near” future will be gated behind the expac. No longer selling the core by itself IS a smart business decision in the end because it can reduce new-customer burden involved in starting the game. As well as reduce the odds of the community becoming increasingly fractured (see GW1).

“You forget, devata, that you DO still need the base game to play HoT.” Do I forget that? Not sure where you base that on.

I am not saying that making GW2 itself free (as part of HoT) was bad by itself, but then they should have said that 6 months ago and then started selling GW2 for $10,-. While I think the $10,- in addition to the $50,- would also not have been a problem it’s not about having to sell GW2 for a price or making it free as part of HoT, it’s how they now got people to buy GW2 because they expected to have to own GW2 for HoT (and they sold many copies while promoting HoT and putting GW2 on sales) and then later changing the deal meaning many of those people could have (better) waiting for the release of HoT to buy it.

SirDrygan.1823:

I think they knew all this will happen. And I think they also know those complaining will still buy the expansion. Some will leave, but it would not affect much their playerbase as the new ones will make up for that difference and probably get even more out of it since we are shouting that new players to the game get their value for money for just 50USD!!!
I am sure ANET knew the risk and just risked it anyway.

“Empty cans make the most noise”

I think you are wrong. The $10,- extra for new players (if they would have gone for selling GW2 for $10) would not have hold back many new players away while the bad PR might hold more players back (old and new).

I doubt they knew so many fans would be angered by it. They likely thought it was a good way to get more people to buy the expansion.

The problem is, Anet now has a problem that they only care about new players and even some of the most loyal GW players are feeling like its now obvious they will never be catered to or even thought of going forward. Anet clearly made it their goal to focus solely on new players and now it even comes off like they don’t care about veterans at all.

Its likely somewhat true, although I do think they care about gemshop purchases.

Having said all that, its truly irritating to hear some fans pretty much insulting ones that are annoyed at Anet for this. Its fans like that that are responsible for gaming companies being as greedy and lazy as they are these days. Pretty soon companies will be able to start charging for patches at this rate, since most gamers are willing to roll over and take anything as long as they get to play what they want.

Sekhmet.6153:

I doubt they knew so many fans would be angered by it. They likely thought it was a good way to get more people to buy the expansion.

The problem is, Anet now has a problem that they only care about new players and even some of the most loyal GW players are feeling like its now obvious they will never be catered to or even thought of going forward. Anet clearly made it their goal to focus solely on new players and now it even comes off like they don’t care about veterans at all.

Its likely somewhat true, although I do think they care about gemshop purchases.

Having said all that, its truly irritating to hear some fans pretty much insulting ones that are annoyed at Anet for this. Its fans like that that are responsible for gaming companies being as greedy and lazy as they are these days. Pretty soon companies will be able to start charging for patches at this rate, since most gamers are willing to roll over and take anything as long as they get to play what they want.

That is patently false. People giving game publisers and devs money when it’s not deserved via pre orders and early access and dlc are what is responsible for companies being greedy and lazy.

“Well they already gave us our money, we’ll just ship a broken product and fix it after launch. In the meantime lets work on cutting some stuff out of the game to sell as dlc, too”.

Zanshin.5379:

I’m sure their reasoning was “Veterans will buy the expansion anyway, even if they get mad at first”.

This. Seems what they didn’t forsee was the amount of mad. Hence the “surge” of dev forum communication and announcements that did not seem planned (forging ascended, dragonite eater). This surge of communication will surely recede back to normal levels once they think players have been sufficiently pacified.

fellyn.5083:

Sekhmet.6153:

I doubt they knew so many fans would be angered by it. They likely thought it was a good way to get more people to buy the expansion.

The problem is, Anet now has a problem that they only care about new players and even some of the most loyal GW players are feeling like its now obvious they will never be catered to or even thought of going forward. Anet clearly made it their goal to focus solely on new players and now it even comes off like they don’t care about veterans at all.

Its likely somewhat true, although I do think they care about gemshop purchases.

Having said all that, its truly irritating to hear some fans pretty much insulting ones that are annoyed at Anet for this. Its fans like that that are responsible for gaming companies being as greedy and lazy as they are these days. Pretty soon companies will be able to start charging for patches at this rate, since most gamers are willing to roll over and take anything as long as they get to play what they want.

That is patently false. People giving game publisers and devs money when it’s not deserved via pre orders and early access and dlc are what is responsible for companies being greedy and lazy.

“Well they already gave us our money, we’ll just ship a broken product and fix it after launch. In the meantime lets work on cutting some stuff out of the game to sell as dlc, too”.

You do realize we are discussing the pre-purchase of HoT that includes early access, right? You just said that was part of the problem, which is why I pointed it out. Giving Anet money already even though they haven’t earned it yet is precisely one of the problems with the gaming community as a whole. Too many gamers are so eager to just throw money at a company, that the company hardly has to earn it anymore, and thus they can just release something thats not what it could be, and add on to it later through DLC/Gem shop purchases etc.

Gaming companies rely on good faith of fans and exploiting it by dangling carrots in front of them and constantly getting them to look forward to the next release. If you think there isn’t a problem with companies releasing games that are broken without launch day patches, then Idk. Its a terrible disservice to gamers because it ensures that companies will never have to truly put out their maximum effort, just enough to satisfy diehard fans that will buy it regardless.

Sekhmet.6153:

fellyn.5083:

Sekhmet.6153:

I doubt they knew so many fans would be angered by it. They likely thought it was a good way to get more people to buy the expansion.

The problem is, Anet now has a problem that they only care about new players and even some of the most loyal GW players are feeling like its now obvious they will never be catered to or even thought of going forward. Anet clearly made it their goal to focus solely on new players and now it even comes off like they don’t care about veterans at all.

Its likely somewhat true, although I do think they care about gemshop purchases.

Having said all that, its truly irritating to hear some fans pretty much insulting ones that are annoyed at Anet for this. Its fans like that that are responsible for gaming companies being as greedy and lazy as they are these days. Pretty soon companies will be able to start charging for patches at this rate, since most gamers are willing to roll over and take anything as long as they get to play what they want.

That is patently false. People giving game publisers and devs money when it’s not deserved via pre orders and early access and dlc are what is responsible for companies being greedy and lazy.

“Well they already gave us our money, we’ll just ship a broken product and fix it after launch. In the meantime lets work on cutting some stuff out of the game to sell as dlc, too”.

You do realize we are discussing the pre-purchase of HoT that includes early access, right? You just said that was part of the problem, which is why I pointed it out. Giving Anet money already even though they haven’t earned it yet is precisely one of the problems with the gaming community as a whole. Too many gamers are so eager to just throw money at a company, that the company hardly has to earn it anymore, and thus they can just release something thats not what it could be, and add on to it later through DLC/Gem shop purchases etc.

Gaming companies rely on good faith of fans and exploiting it by dangling carrots in front of them and constantly getting them to look forward to the next release. If you think there isn’t a problem with companies releasing games that are broken without launch day patches, then Idk. Its a terrible disservice to gamers because it ensures that companies will never have to truly put out their maximum effort, just enough to satisfy diehard fans that will buy it regardless.

Okay, well this part

“Having said all that, its truly irritating to hear some fans pretty much insulting ones that are annoyed at Anet for this.”

Led me to believe you were talking about the players kittening on forums being responsible for the greed/laziness. I guess that’s my misunderstanding, I totally misread what you said.

That’s my bad.

How did ANet manage to read all those threads and come up with their version of the Commander tags? It’s similar to this situation. People clearly said they wanted a character slot with the expansion, and it only comes with the high priced ones.

Just because people want something, that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily wrong of the company to not give it to them. I’m sure they’re aware that people would want a free character slot, of course they are, but the character slot is something they normally charge for, so they have to weigh that into the cost of the product. They clearly decided that players would get their money’s worth out of kitten HoT, without a $10 character slot thrown in. Some disagree, but that doesn’t mean that ANet was not paying attention to what the fans wanted.

the industry standard is 0-50, i actually only saw 50 one time, and it was WoW, and only the latest expansion.
so they priced it as much as the most expensive expansions that exist, not really the industry standard

Two things to keep in mind, one, GW2 is a Buy to Play game, so the boxed expansions are a larger part of their revenue model than either a sub or a pure F2P game. A GW2 expansion is more akin to a standalone retail game than merely an expansion. It is reasonable to expect their box prices to skew towards the high end of the range.

Second, inflation, prices of all games rise steadily over time, the latest WoW expansion was $50, so it’s not unreasonable that GW2’s is as well. You can’t point at expansions from five years ago and ask why it isn’t the same price today.

Frankly, I saw the rage coming and found it amusing. Some things never change, regardless of MMO, and the first thing complained about is always the price.

I’ve been an MMO gamer for long enough to not take it seriously. It will die down, and frankly, ANet knows this.

honestly i think they didnt. i think they thought we would blindly buy their obviously overprice expansion without much resistance. but they knew it was too expensive thats why they quickly added the core game to it to make it look like a great deal(which it only is for new players)

Well, they must have known that (a lot of) people wouldn’t take too kindly to the price of the base expansion.
What I would have expected then is for them to throw in something to sweeten the deal, like, say, an included character slot if you already have an account. I’m pretty sure that would have quelled a lot of protests (and probably the “we don’t get a new copy of the core game, like new players” outrage wouldn’t have started at all).
But they did nothing of that sort. Which might indicate they really need as much revenue as they can get (maybe the income from gem sales and sales to new players fell short, maybe the China adventure didn’t work as planned) and are willing to risk the kittenstorm in the hope it will eventually die down and a lot of people will eventually buy at the proposed price points.
It’s also interesting that they roll out a big update next Thursday – one week after the pricing announcement. Maybe they hope that with a new Lion’s Arch and the trait changes players will start talking about other things again.

BolkovonHarnfeldt.1372:

Well, they must have known that (a lot of) people wouldn’t take too kindly to the price of the base expansion.
What I would have expected then is for them to throw in something to sweeten the deal, like, say, an included character slot if you already have an account. I’m pretty sure that would have quelled a lot of dissent (and probably the “we don’t get a new copy of the core game, like new players” outrage wouldn’t have started at all).
But they did nothing of that sort. Which might indicate they really need as much revenue as they can get (maybe the income from gem sales and sales to new players fell short, maybe the China adventure didn’t work as planned) and are willing to risk the kittenstorm in the hope it will eventually die down and a lot of people will eventually buy at the proposed price points.
It’s also interesting that they roll out a big update next Thursday – one week after the pricing announcement. Maybe they hope that with a new Lion’s Arch and the trait changes players will start talking about other things again.

i dunno the new specs is probably going to go over very poorly. I dont think its totally bad, but its a huge change, and people tend not to like that.

phys.7689:

BolkovonHarnfeldt.1372:

Well, they must have known that (a lot of) people wouldn’t take too kindly to the price of the base expansion.
What I would have expected then is for them to throw in something to sweeten the deal, like, say, an included character slot if you already have an account. I’m pretty sure that would have quelled a lot of dissent (and probably the “we don’t get a new copy of the core game, like new players” outrage wouldn’t have started at all).
But they did nothing of that sort. Which might indicate they really need as much revenue as they can get (maybe the income from gem sales and sales to new players fell short, maybe the China adventure didn’t work as planned) and are willing to risk the kittenstorm in the hope it will eventually die down and a lot of people will eventually buy at the proposed price points.
It’s also interesting that they roll out a big update next Thursday – one week after the pricing announcement. Maybe they hope that with a new Lion’s Arch and the trait changes players will start talking about other things again.

i dunno the new specs is probably going to go over very poorly. I dont think its totally bad, but its a huge change, and people tend not to like that.

But from ANets perspective, it’s better we complain (or discuss) about the trait changes than about the price of the expansion. And I think opinions on the trait changes are much more diverse (and probably everybody will welcome the changes made to unlocking traits)

Guild Wars 1 survives to this day with no cash cow that the gem store is.

Ten years on. ArenaNet are still here.

The price is more than enough for HoT. But most will want the new class, so it’s the base price +, w/e you choose ‘to lose’. Money, Gold or Delete.

Did Anet see this coming? Yes. Because NCSoft told them to expect it, when they shoved their money grubbing tactics down everyone’s throats.

Now why did NCSoft do this? Because most people do not grasp abstract concepts when they do not directly effect them in any way shape or form; or are perceived to have no direct effect.

The very, very, short sighted people who actually defend any of this, are just a group of people who don’t understand the concept of right an wrong, beyond very basic and observable terms. Namely because they aren’t forced to care.

If you have enough money, you aren’t going to care.
If you’re a new player planning to get both Core and Xpac, you aren’t going to care.
If you don’t value yourself, you aren’t going to care.
If you take more enjoyment from arguing a point, than being right about it, you aren’t going to care.
If you enjoy calling people with legitimate viewpoint, pretty much the only legitimate viewpoint, a whiner or a child; you aren’t going to care.

There are some very sad, very sick people out there that have this deranged notion that the consumer is responsible for everything all of the time, and that just because many companies do the same thing, it makes it right.

What they forget to realize is that it only works in the first place because all of them don’t care. They can’t be bothered to exert the effort required to stand up for themselves, or stand up for someone else, or at least stand up against a very nasty business practice.

They say, oh hey look at all those silly people, look how they waste their effort trying to get something to happen. Oh well, I rather not think about it. And then several million go buy without considering the consequences later which are.

The company can count on you being a sheep.
The company can count on pricing for whatever they want, you’ll buy it.
The company can cut corners as long as they manage hype, cause you’ll buy it.
The company can remain focused on churning through new players and rehash the old content.
The company can count on a great number of you to actually work counter to those who complain out of blind loyalty.

But you can bet those very same people when they see something THEY don’t like, will complain just the same, and wonder why “those other people” just don’t get it.

Because the company can count on you being a hypocrite.

I remember Anet before NCSoft…better days, they’d NEVER have done this. They would have spit on the idea. Shame on NCSoft and EVERY person who works for such a company.

KDXX.9520:

I remember Anet before NCSoft…better days, they’d NEVER have done this. They would have spit on the idea. Shame on NCSoft and EVERY person who works for such a company.

NCSOFT has owned ANet since 2002, before the original Guild Wars launched.

I like to think a large reason this blew up was due to the FAQ change and people worrying about shady business practices, as that is a good reason for customers to worry. If that were the case, then assuming the change was rushed/not planned the reaction was likely a surprise.

If the core game truly did not contribute to the price tag, they may have been more focused on welcoming new players to think of how it effects the long time players. However, random guess is having the core game included did jump the price a bit and the position that it’s just a bonus is simply a PR decision.

Anyways, undoubtedly they expected some complaints since there’s always something. The amount they got is probably a surprise courtesy of a few snowballing mistakes.

I bought the ultimate edition mainly because I am paying 99.99 for 149.99 deal. 99.99 and 4k gems. I wont argue on rebates.

ANet is a company with share holders which like any other business will try to make as much profit as possible without upsetting their customers (too much). Sometimes companies get this right and sometimes they get this wrong. Ultimately which one this is will not be determined by forum fury, but by how much revenue is generated compared to that which was projected.

Sometimes a perceived profit loss will lead to concessions to the customer(s). In this case I think they will use the preorder purchases levels to determine if they give a concession or leave it as it is.

Ohoni.6057:

How did ANet manage to read all those threads and come up with their version of the Commander tags? It’s similar to this situation. People clearly said they wanted a character slot with the expansion, and it only comes with the high priced ones.

Just because people want something, that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily wrong of the company to not give it to them. I’m sure they’re aware that people would want a free character slot, of course they are, but the character slot is something they normally charge for, so they have to weigh that into the cost of the product. They clearly decided that players would get their money’s worth out of kitten HoT, without a $10 character slot thrown in. Some disagree, but that doesn’t mean that ANet was not paying attention to what the fans wanted.

the industry standard is 0-50, i actually only saw 50 one time, and it was WoW, and only the latest expansion.
so they priced it as much as the most expensive expansions that exist, not really the industry standard

Two things to keep in mind, one, GW2 is a Buy to Play game, so the boxed expansions are a larger part of their revenue model than either a sub or a pure F2P game. A GW2 expansion is more akin to a standalone retail game than merely an expansion. It is reasonable to expect their box prices to skew towards the high end of the range.

Second, inflation, prices of all games rise steadily over time, the latest WoW expansion was $50, so it’s not unreasonable that GW2’s is as well. You can’t point at expansions from five years ago and ask why it isn’t the same price today.

“Two things to keep in mind, one, GW2 is a Buy to Play game, so the boxed expansions are a larger part of their revenue model than either a sub or a pure F2P game.” True, but then they should also behave as a B2P game.

Currently they behave as any F2P / Cash-shop game out there. Many new cosmetics, mini’s and toys are in the cash-shop. Getting anything (of these things) ingame is a boring grind, but of course you can always buy your way out of the grind by buying gems and use that to buy the item you want, or convert it to gold to buy what you want.

So they have very much been behaving as a F2P game and the game did suffer for it like any F2P game does.

Of course that did make sense as it took 3 years for an expansion but they the fact is that at the moment they do not use the model (B2P) that would allow them to charge above what the market does. I have no problem with the $50,- but I do hope they will now also indeed move back to a true B2P model, losing focus on the cash-shop and start focusing more on expansion they then start releasing on a more regular base.

xeerus.1645:

I bought the ultimate edition mainly because I am paying 99.99 for 149.99 deal. 99.99 and 4k gems. I wont argue on rebates.

You mean $125 deal right? Of course you could also grind for the gold to get those gems so in a way you could also consider it a $75,- deal you did buy for $100,-

Some people said they did go for the $100,- deal to then buy some additional slots they would else have both anyway and then never spend any cash on gems anyway, that would indeed make it a good deal.

It all depends on how you look at it.

I don’t spend money on gems as I do not want to support the cash-shop focus and the grind it put into this game. So for me it would have been a bad deal, while I would likely still have purchased it if they had it as a physical copy simply because the box would be nice next to my CE.

Sadly there will be no CE or even a UE as physical sale for HoT, so I can only get the Deluxe edition as a substitute.

“Two things to keep in mind, one, GW2 is a Buy to Play game, so the boxed expansions are a larger part of their revenue model than either a sub or a pure F2P game.” True, but then they should also behave as a B2P game.

Currently they behave as any F2P / Cash-shop game out there. Many new cosmetics, mini’s and toys are in the cash-shop. Getting anything (of these things) ingame is a boring grind, but of course you can always buy your way out of the grind by buying gems and use that to buy the item you want, or convert it to gold to buy what you want.

So they have very much been behaving as a F2P game and the game did suffer for it like any F2P game does.

Not really. Look, a “pure” B2P MMO, one without even a cash shop, cannot exist. It couldn’t possibly support itself. They have to give people the option of buying things after the fact (and even most sub based MMOs or even non-MMO games do this these days). So yeah, GW2 has a cash shop, that is not a bad thing. What matters is how essential this cash shop is to the experience, which is “not very.” I can go months without buying anything, and usually when I do it’s at least half just because I want to throw money at them and could have easily done without if I didn’t feel like it. Most “pure F2P” games I’ve played have had MUCH more aggressive cash shops, with strict progress walls and much more limited “free” experiences than you get after buying a box of GW2.

Devata is willfully ignorant of this fact. Cash shops exist in EVERY MMO, and they are NEVER going away. Sub MMOs have them. B2P and F2P MMOs have them. Even Devata’s beloved GW1 had a cash shop (to which Devata’s response tends to be an articulated version of “LALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!”).

But nope, there exists this “pure” MMO in Devata’s mind… one that only charges for the base game, has AAA level of graphics, never has a sub, and produces cheap expansions every six months to a year.

That the studio who produced such a game would go bankrupt within three years with current game development costs never seems to enter Devata’s mind.

Gene Archer.8560:

Behellagh.1468:

Management isn’t agile.

Personally speaking, this strikes me as a problem rather than an excuse.

Its isnt either, its a simple fact of life. Sometimes we forget that in a big organization decisions arent taken by a single person. Or at least it would be much much worst if thats the case.

let hypothetically assume ceo decides the backlash isnt worth all this and decides to lower the price. Do you really expect all that would involve is he phoning up someone and thats it? NO WAY!

First of all you’d need to get together all the stake holders which will likely include sales, finance, marketing, legal, development and NC Soft. Then you’d need to see if making such a change will impact them and even then this is not something that can be answered on the spot. Finance will need to re-run projections, based on those projections, development will have to come up with how the smaller amount of revenue is going to impact their future plans. Based on that reply sales will have to see how the change in content is going to effect meeting their target next year. After all that is done it will likely be time to confer with NC Soft since they’re also a stake holder in this. NC Soft will have to be informed how projections would be changing based on what was previously submitted and they will also need to give the go ahead that they’re willing to incur the loss if any (well lets be honest there would most definitely be one if they lower the price by $10, doubt charging $10 will get enough extra people to buy the the expansion then the cost of loosing $10 per customer would bring)

In a nutshell this is a lengthy process, there is a lot to consider before taking a decision like this because it has far and wide implications for a lot of people. Pricing isnt decided based on a dice roll and cant be changed on a whim.

Galen Grey.4709:

In a nutshell this is a lengthy process, there is a lot to consider before taking a decision like this because it has far and wide implications for a lot of people. Pricing isnt decided based on a dice roll and cant be changed on a whim.

Here’s the thing. If a management team can’t be agile when reacting, then it either needs to be agile and fluid before the time of reacting, -or- have enough of a finger on the pulse of its community so that it doesn’t constantly find itself in situations like this. If it can’t be agile, then it needs to be smart. Sure, ANet takes things slow. It takes its time with things. But it doesn’t use that time it takes wisely.

They either need to up their reaction time, or they need to better work to not find themselves in these situations. And whether or not “people will always complain”, a lot of these messes that ANet has found itself in the past couple years could have been significantly reduced from the get go if they had simply paid better attention.

Or, you know, if they had communicated better, like O’brien said they would.

chemiclord.3978:

Devata is willfully ignorant of this fact. Cash shops exist in EVERY MMO, and they are NEVER going away. Sub MMOs have them. B2P and F2P MMOs have them. Even Devata’s beloved GW1 had a cash shop (to which Devata’s response tends to be an articulated version of “LALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!”).

But nope, there exists this “pure” MMO in Devata’s mind… one that only charges for the base game, has AAA level of graphics, never has a sub, and produces cheap expansions every six months to a year.

That the studio who produced such a game would go bankrupt within three years with current game development costs never seems to enter Devata’s mind.

You are willfully ignoring what I say. I talk about a cash-shop focus. And no not all mmo’s have a cash-shop focus. Most P2P games for example (like WoW) do have a cash-shop but clearly no focus on the cash-shop to generate it’s income.

That is a huge difference.

I have no problem with a B2P game that asks $50,- every year for an expansion that also has a cash-shop, if there is no focus on that cash-shop. So lets say they would only sell 10 mini’s while the other 150 mini are in-game, 5 skins, total make-over kits, race changers and a few more of those services. So no, it’s not about having a cash-shop itself.

A difference I explained many times, so if anybody has a reaction that go’s a little like “LALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!” it’s you.

You even proof that more with the next statement.

“But nope, there exists this “pure” MMO in Devata’s mind… one that only charges for the base game, has AAA level of graphics, never has a sub, and produces cheap expansions every six months to a year."

While only two comments before that I say

I have no problem with the $50,-

so far for wanting cheap expansions.

Also I always talk about an expansion every year, maybe year and a half, never half a year to a year.

So it’s a nice try but the fact that you can’t proof your point by stating the facts only proofs your wrong.

They should have seen that including the core game for free would have diminished the value they saw fit for the expansion of $50, when they’ve been recently selling the core for a minimum $10 on sales.

If anything they should have waited to include that when the expansion was released, then you could say hey you got to buy it early to get beta access, going forward we’re selling both together for $50 to get new players. I don’t think anyone would argue with that (mostly anyways).

They should have realized that some people didn’t want all the extra fluff and gems they just wanted the expansion and the character slot for the new class. I understand what they were trying to do in promoting the upper packages with gem sales and the character slot, at the end of the day they’re a business and they have to try and make extra sales out of the expansion. They must have figured most players would take the $75 package to get the extra slot without complaint.

At minimum the packages should have had the $50 expansion, and 1 extra character slot. Everything else you throw in you ask for the extra fee.

They are not going to say much and just weather the storm much like the npe changes, in a month or two it will just be a grumble from players and people will get the expansion anyways come release day. But how much damage to their reputation was done from this? At the end of the day just looks like another quick cash grab to satisfy their quarterly report.

P.S another storm coming with the tuesday patch, brace yourselves.

Gene Archer.8560:

Galen Grey.4709:

In a nutshell this is a lengthy process, there is a lot to consider before taking a decision like this because it has far and wide implications for a lot of people. Pricing isnt decided based on a dice roll and cant be changed on a whim.

Here’s the thing. If a management team can’t be agile when reacting, then it either needs to be agile and fluid before the time of reacting, -or- have enough of a finger on the pulse of its community so that it doesn’t constantly find itself in situations like this. If it can’t be agile, then it needs to be smart. Sure, ANet takes things slow. It takes its time with things. But it doesn’t use that time it takes wisely.

They either need to up their reaction time, or they need to better work to not find themselves in these situations. And whether or not “people will always complain”, a lot of these messes that ANet has found itself in the past couple years could have been significantly reduced from the get go if they had simply paid better attention.

Or, you know, if they had communicated better, like O’brien said they would.

Its not an option. They cant really do anything before taking a decision and they have a ton of homework before they can take that decision. They did tell us they’re looking into it, what more can they say before they decide how they’re going to act about it?

Galen Grey.4709:

Its not an option.

Be specific, what isn’t an option?

Galen Grey.4709:

They cant really do anything before taking a decision and they have a ton of homework before they can take that decision.

And what I’m saying is that there is initial homework they could have been doing that would have let them avoid a portion of this mess. I’m saying they didn’t put in the necessary work to begin with.

I forget which user said it, it may have been you, actually. But instead of hype for the expansion, everyone is reporting on or commenting on this negative (perceived or otherwise) thing that’s going down. Any work that ANet did at E3 has been essentially sidetracked, possibly even completely unraveled. And I’m not talking about just the forums. Media sites are reporting on this, rather than on the hype.

Regardless of any “right” or “wrong”, it can’t be denied that this was a definite moment of FUBAR. They dun goofed.

It’s like the marketing team didn’t put any thought into the packages.

A glider skin
Gems
A mini
Character slot
Finisher
Guild Hall decoration

These are all fine, but the deluxe and ultimate packages are still the same. You only get a discount on gems for the ultimate. There isn’t even a physical box or physical items, and they want to charge the same price as the original (i meant for standard version). It’s laughable really.

And then on the other side with the standard, you don’t get anything. It’s like a slap in the face to all those who just wanted a cheaper standard version.

They couldn’t at least included a character slot or a mini? Really? It’s like one big joke. This is why there’s outrage. They wanted to fleece people into getting a deluxe version instead.

Do they even have a marketing team?

Gene Archer.8560:

Ohoni.6057:

I can’t imagine they predicted any of this. They offered a perfectly reasonable price, and yet the babies threw their toys out of the pram anyways. What could they have done differently?

Smooth Penguin, is that you?

They didn’t forsee this.

if they did, they would have had someone on standby for damage control. They didn’t.

They don’t have a clue how to deal with it as evidenced by the lack of any response.

Even though NO response is simply making it worse.

Personally, i won’t give them 50$ for just 1 reason: in 2-3 years I will have core game + HoT for free, plus the next expack.

Oh wait. That means, in 10ish years I’ll have core game +3 expacks for the same 50$.

Oh wait!!! That means before they’ll release GW3, I can have the core game and ALL THE EXPACKS for just 50$.

OH WAIT!!!!! That means Anet will never ever see my money anymore!

Gene Archer.8560:

Galen Grey.4709:

Its not an option.

Be specific, what isn’t an option?

Galen Grey.4709:

They cant really do anything before taking a decision and they have a ton of homework before they can take that decision.

And what I’m saying is that there is initial homework they could have been doing that would have let them avoid a portion of this mess. I’m saying they didn’t put in the necessary work to begin with.

I forget which user said it, it may have been you, actually. But instead of hype for the expansion, everyone is reporting on or commenting on this negative (perceived or otherwise) thing that’s going down. Any work that ANet did at E3 has been essentially sidetracked, possibly even completely unraveled. And I’m not talking about just the forums. Media sites are reporting on this, rather than on the hype.

Regardless of any “right” or “wrong”, it can’t be denied that this was a definite moment of FUBAR. They dun goofed.

by its not an option I was referring for management to ever become agile in situations like these.

I am sure they’ve done their homework, people’s reaction are hard to predict. Sure in hindsight its always easy to say they should have known but that doesnt necessary mean it was really easy to predict.

I mean there are two main issues that got people fired up. The price for the expansion.IE $50. and bundling the core game with the expansion.

$50, that also happens to be what WoW charged for the latest expansion as well, there were some people complaining this was too much but not only there wasnt an uproar about it but you can even find threads where OP complains about the price and EVERYONE in the thread takes the opposite side and try to explain why they believe its priced okey. Lets not forget thats also with everyone paying $15 a month. Is it such a stretch to believe that when Anet though about this they concluded if the vast majority of WoW players are okey with paying $50 for an expansion every 2 years while also paying $15 subscription they’ll be okey to pay $50 for our every 3 years considering we charge no subscription? On top of that an expansion is something players overwhelming asked for. There is good chance Anet changed their strategy based on that really strong feedback. Words have consequences, people told Arenanet over and over to scrap the LS and simply focus an expansion. They did this rather passionately which again suggested to Anet people would value an expansion very highly. Turns out not highly enough but again anticipating that might not be that easy.

Same argument for the 2nd issue, adding the core game for free didnt really hurt anyone in anyway. Arenanet could have just concluded new players would be happy for the nice deal they get while old players would be happy buying the expansion they have requested so passionately. I’ll be honest but if I were the one doing prediction for Arenanet I would have fell for this too, who on earth could predict giving away something for free would have you labeled by the community as greedy?

I don’t think they knew what they were doing with this expansion at all. Just being honest… it doesn’t resemble a product that’s been in development quietly for a years… It seems like they decided “how fast can we put out a full expansion” if they started last fall or something. And you see a lot of the problems with that method, a lot of things just not thought out. I think they backed themselves into a corner for some reason.

nexxe.7081:

There isn’t even a physical box or physical items, and they want to charge the same price as the original (i meant for standard version). It’s laughable really.

I’ve seen this repeated multiple times but this is incorrect. Gw2 retailed at $60 not $50 when it launched.

Galen Grey.4709:

Gene Archer.8560:

Galen Grey.4709:

Its not an option.

Be specific, what isn’t an option?

Galen Grey.4709:

They cant really do anything before taking a decision and they have a ton of homework before they can take that decision.

And what I’m saying is that there is initial homework they could have been doing that would have let them avoid a portion of this mess. I’m saying they didn’t put in the necessary work to begin with.

I forget which user said it, it may have been you, actually. But instead of hype for the expansion, everyone is reporting on or commenting on this negative (perceived or otherwise) thing that’s going down. Any work that ANet did at E3 has been essentially sidetracked, possibly even completely unraveled. And I’m not talking about just the forums. Media sites are reporting on this, rather than on the hype.

Regardless of any “right” or “wrong”, it can’t be denied that this was a definite moment of FUBAR. They dun goofed.

by its not an option I was referring for management to ever become agile in situations like these.

I am sure they’ve done their homework, people’s reaction are hard to predict. Sure in hindsight its always easy to say they should have known but that doesnt necessary mean it was really easy to predict.

I mean there are two main issues that got people fired up. The price for the expansion.IE $50. and bundling the core game with the expansion.

$50, that also happens to be what WoW charged for the latest expansion as well, there were some people complaining this was too much but not only there wasnt an uproar about it but you can even find threads where OP complains about the price and EVERYONE in the thread takes the opposite side and try to explain why they believe its priced okey. Lets not forget thats also with everyone paying $15 a month. Is it such a stretch to believe that when Anet though about this they concluded if the vast majority of WoW players are okey with paying $50 for an expansion every 2 years while also paying $15 subscription they’ll be okey to pay $50 for our every 3 years considering we charge no subscription? On top of that an expansion is something players overwhelming asked for. There is good chance Anet changed their strategy based on that really strong feedback. Words have consequences, people told Arenanet over and over to scrap the LS and simply focus an expansion. They did this rather passionately which again suggested to Anet people would value an expansion very highly. Turns out not highly enough but again anticipating that might not be that easy.

Same argument for the 2nd issue, adding the core game for free didnt really hurt anyone in anyway. Arenanet could have just concluded new players would be happy for the nice deal they get while old players would be happy buying the expansion they have requested so passionately. I’ll be honest but if I were the one doing prediction for Arenanet I would have fell for this too, who on earth could predict giving away something for free would have you labeled by the community as greedy?

Agreed, but come on. It’s not like 2-3 people are complaining. It’s quite a few actually and the wave has become at least so big that most mainstream gaming media are reporting it.

You can’t tell me no one at arenanet(or NCSoft, whoever is responsible for the pricing implementation) at any point didn’t go:“Are we maybe taking this to far? Players are stupid, but there is a limit of shady business stuff we can pull off without it collapsing on us.”

In case this did not come up, get rid of the marketing team and replace them because they sure as * are completely out of touch with their gamer base.

TurtleofPower.5641:

I don’t think they knew what they were doing with this expansion at all. Just being honest… it doesn’t resemble a product that’s been in development quietly for a years… It seems like they decided “how fast can we put out a full expansion” if they started last fall or something. And you see a lot of the problems with that method, a lot of things just not thought out. I think they backed themselves into a corner for some reason.

There are very strong indication that HoT has been in development since at least January 2014. In this interview they mention they’re working on some big projects in addition to LS and the Chinese release. Since then there were no big projects released which suggests they went into the expansion instead:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-01-14-you-thought-that-was-it-for-guild-wars-2

Besides we do know living story team was 20 people which leaves a lot of employees unaccounted for, they had to be working on something. There is no way the feature patch teams and pvp teams made up for the other 330 employees right?

Then there is the indicator that made people believe arenanet had to be working on an expansion, key Anet employees have essentially dissappeared since Gw2 launched. Jeff Stain and Ree Soesbee for example. We know they still work at Anet but didnt hear anything from there anymore. Something that suggests they’ve been working on an expansion is the fact there was a post once suggested Ree might be working on the Living story team and a dev replied that, that wasnt the case though he couldnt comment on what she was working on.

Thing is, and this was a mistake on Anet’s part in my opinion, so far they have only revealed guildhalls and some specializations. We dont know anything about the PvE aspect which is the bulk for the expansion and thats having people assume the expansion is really tiny. Truth is we dont know yet how big or small it is and we will not know until they finish revealing all there is to reveal.

Cyninja.2954:

Agreed, but come on. It’s not like 2-3 people are complaining. It’s quite a few actually and the wave has become at least so big that most mainstream gaming media are reporting it.

You can’t tell me no one at arenanet(or NCSoft, whoever is responsible for the pricing implementation) at any point didn’t go:“Are we maybe taking this to far? Players are stupid, but there is a limit of shady business stuff we can pull off without it collapsing on us.”

In case this did not come up, get rid of the marketing team and replace them because they sure as * are completely out of touch with their gamer base.

Now yes naturally but like I explained in a different post: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Did-Anet-foresee-HoT-price-pandemic/5183541

it will take sometime before they can come up with anything. Its only been 2 business days. Even if they take the easy way out and simply give a character slot to everyone which hopefully would be enough to diffuse this situation, it will take sometime to get that approved by all stake holders. I dont think its something that can be decided and told to the community in as little as 2 days.

Galen Grey.4709:

Cyninja.2954:

Agreed, but come on. It’s not like 2-3 people are complaining. It’s quite a few actually and the wave has become at least so big that most mainstream gaming media are reporting it.

You can’t tell me no one at arenanet(or NCSoft, whoever is responsible for the pricing implementation) at any point didn’t go:“Are we maybe taking this to far? Players are stupid, but there is a limit of shady business stuff we can pull off without it collapsing on us.”

In case this did not come up, get rid of the marketing team and replace them because they sure as * are completely out of touch with their gamer base.

Now yes naturally but like I explained in a different post: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Did-Anet-foresee-HoT-price-pandemic/5183541

it will take sometime before they can come up with anything. Its only been 2 business days. Even if they take the easy way out and simply give a character slot to everyone which hopefully would be enough to diffuse this situation, it will take sometime to get that approved by all stake holders. I dont think its something that can be decided and told to the community in as little as 2 days.

That I fully understand and actually agree with. Hence why I’m fine with waiting until some response comes from anet. Big companies have multiple layers things like this must pass.

I also think it’s been a good thing people have been pointing out that the current situation has little to do with arenanets artist, programmers, designers etc. They are just the poor folk who have been receiving the flac (unjustly I might add).

Let’s wait and see. E3 has been quite awesome in general as far as new games have gone (finally arrived in the next-gen phase) so there is enough news coverage to keep people busy.

Galen Grey.4709:

I mean there are two main issues that got people fired up. The price for the expansion.IE $50. and bundling the core game with the expansion.

$50, that also happens to be what WoW charged for the latest expansion as well, there were some people complaining this was too much but not only there wasnt an uproar about it but you can even find threads where OP complains about the price and EVERYONE in the thread takes the opposite side and try to explain why they believe its priced okey. Lets not forget thats also with everyone paying $15 a month. Is it such a stretch to believe that when Anet though about this they concluded if the vast majority of WoW players are okey with paying $50 for an expansion every 2 years while also paying $15 subscription they’ll be okey to pay $50 for our every 3 years considering we charge no subscription?

For one thing, I believe the second of your two “main issues” is simply a consequence of the first: people think the price for the base package is too high and ANet didn’t give existing players anything at all to sweeten the deal; on the contrary – most players (at least the ones w/o a free character slot) figured out that the effective price they would have to pay if they want to experience the features of the expansion is even higher (namely the gem store character slot).
That IMO is the main reason people got upset about the inclusion of the core game for new accounts. I don’t think anyone would have cared (apart from that false advertising in the FAQ) if they’d though the deal offered to them as existing players was fair.

And the comparison to WOW, well ANet isn’t Blizzard and their customers aren’t Blizzard’s customers – I think it’s fair to assume that if you are willing to fork over 15 bucks each months for a game it makes you more rather than less willing to spend on expansions as well.

(Which BTW is why I think the argument that existing players should be grateful because they have been able to play for so many hours with just their initial “deposit” a bit misleading: Pay once play for as long as you want was the business model (and niche) ANet offered, without which they would probably failed to attract many of the players that play their game now.)

Also, keep in mind that if it wasn’t this, it would be something else. To me, this kittening is just another day for an MMO. Amusing, but unproductive. Still, if it makes them feel better by complaining, then by all means, continue.

I will at least be entertained and amused.

Galen Grey.4709:

by its not an option I was referring for management to ever become agile in situations like these.

And yet…the Witcher guys are pretty agile.

I still think it’s possible.

Galen Grey.4709:

I am sure they’ve done their homework, people’s reaction are hard to predict.

Sorry, I don’t buy this. Not with the megathreads of feedback that have popped up for various issues.

Bethesda crushed E3 on day 0. ANet…hobbled. One company understood and predicted their fanbase and knew how to sell to them. The other is…facing these problems at the moment.

Galen Grey.4709:

Sure in hindsight its always easy to say they should have known but that doesnt necessary mean it was really easy to predict.

Everything I’ve seen suggests that they should have had at least an inkling.

Again, they had a megathread of feedback.

Galen Grey.4709:

$50, that also happens to be what WoW charged for the latest expansion as well,

Well, two things there.
1) WoW also included a free level 90 character with even the standard editions.
2) This expansion is looking to go down as one of their worst.

Anet failed on the first point and I think we can all agree that ANet doesn’t want to emulate the second. And, well, just because WoW does it, and even can get away with it, doesn’t mean that it’ll work for ANet.

Galen Grey.4709:

Turns out not highly enough but again anticipating that might not be that easy.

(snipped for brevity, my apologies)

It’s how they went about it, if you ask me. (I.E. the FAQ change and general lack of info or release date) Also, Blizz isn’t a company that ANet should be looking at for emulation so far as I’m concerned. I also get the feeling that what people envisioned when it came to an expansion was more along of the lines of GW1 and their prices. Or so I assume. There’s also the general consensus that what we’re looking at is an expansion that’s really just a living story segment and some features being packed together.

ANet…really hasn’t done much to alleviate that feeling.

Galen Grey.4709:

I would have fell for this too, who on earth could predict giving away something for free would have you labeled by the community as greedy?

If it would have fooled you as well, then you haven’t been paying attention to various threads.

It’s that simple.

The other problem is that, there are a ton of reasons in between the two issues you have outlined. They just all generally run the gambit of “$50 is too much” in one way or the other.

As a final thought, I get the feeling that on a very basic level, ANet is just, well, really bad at marketing and PR. Like, really, really bad. One might say horrible, even.

Every game company expects outrage on the forums for every decision made so;

OP…. yes they expected outrage.

As to expecting a Pandemic….. not sure they understand the word the same way you do.

nexxe.7081:

It’s like the marketing team didn’t put any thought into the packages.

A glider skin
Gems
A mini
Character slot
Finisher
Guild Hall decoration

The items in the packages were just a bit on the skimpy side, no? lol

I remember when Rift’s NT came out and their biggest package had a huge list of items. It really felt like you were getting a lot.