Guild Wars 2

I have been thinking about this for a while, and decided to post my thoughts. Apologies if this has already been said by others!

I think there is an inherent disparity in the new weapons enabled for elite specializations. Here are the elite weapons we know of so far:
Warrior: ?
Guardian: Longbow (2 handed)
Revenant: ?
Engineer: Hammer (2 handed) this is not formally announced, but a pretty sure bet
Thief: ???
Ranger: Staff (2 handed)
Elementalist: Warhorn (offhand)
Necromancer: Greatsword (2 handed)
Mesmer: Shield (offhand)

I’m assuming it’s clear that the Elementalist and Mesmer have gotten the short end of the stick here. Every other announced profession is getting an entire new weapon skill set (5 skills total) from a two-handed weapon, while the poor Ele and Mezzy get just two skills from a new offhand weapon. Although there are still 3 elite specs unannounced, this is pretty clearly unequal.

My suggestion is, why not ALSO give Ele and Mezzy each a new mainhand weapon? I really like what I got to see of the Tempest and Chronomancer skills during BWE1, but I also have seen a number of posts that state exactly how I felt when I played these classes: these new specs are fun to play, but don’t feel like they make sweeping changes to the core class…in other words, it feels a lot like playing a core Elementalist or Mesmer, just with a few more toys in the toybox.

My specific suggestions:
1. Sword for Elementalist. I think this could end up synergizing really well with the up-front melee focus of the new warhorn and overload class mechanics. It could be an alternate melee option alongside the mainhand dagger, but perhaps with more mobility/defense skills built in (I’m thinking skills along the lines of Mesmer sword #2 and Ranger sword #3), to avoid simply replicating the full-on melee DPS of the existing dagger skill set. It would also give a broader array of weapon combinations for the Ele, which is now blessed with 3 offhand weapons and only 2 mainhand ones.

2. Mace for Mesmer. I’m specifically envisioning this as either a super-defensive mainhand choice (similar to Guardian mace), or as a scaled-down version of Revenant’s hammer (that is, a traditionally melee weapon that is instead used in a ranged/thrown way). I don’t know why, but there’s something oddly appealing to me about the idea of a Mesmer throwing a big stick at an enemy and summoning a clone next to the target when the thrown mace hits them. Plus, it would give a better mainhand ranged option than the scepter, which is a pretty niche weapon only useful for specific builds. And again, this would somewhat even out the Mesmer’s tendency to have far more offhand weapons (pistol, focus, torch, sword, and now shield) than mainhand ones (sword, scepter).

TL;DR – It would be more fun and more fair if ALL professions’ elite specs allowed access to a total of 5 new weapon skills, either through two-handed weapons, or a combination of mainhand and offhand weapons. Tempest with mainhand sword and Chronomancer with mainhand mace would be awesomesauce.

Thoughts?

with mesmer, you might have a point. except that Chronomancer plays really well.

with elementalist, you’re forgetting that while all other classes get 5 skills, ele gets 8. the attunement system means an elementalist weapon is worth 4 similar weapons on any other class. Ele did get the short end of the stick, but not because of fewer (actually more) weapon skills.

1. This has been brought up by many others already.

2. The chronomancer is a good place already even without a new main-hand weapon.

3. The tempest is not the best place it could be but that is not due to lacking a new main-hand weapon.

4. The dragonhunter and reaper are not in a better place than the chronomancer.

5. Unlike the reaper and dragonhunter, the chronomancer and tempest actually have more skills available to them at the same time than their base classes. In the case of the chronomancer this is due to their F5, in the case of the tempest this is due to Overloads.

6. The tempest’s warhorn doesn’t give 2 new skills like the off-hand of most profession but 8 new skills due to attunements.

7. Giving a main hand and an off-hand to an elite specialization is actually something entirely different from giving a two-handed weapon to an elite specialization because the amount of weapon-set combinations with a main-hand and off-hand is much higher (i.e. they can be combined with eachother but also with core weapons). Thus the balance of a new main-hand + off-hand is more complex than the balance of a new two-handed weapon.

Gray.9041:

with mesmer, you might have a point. except that Chronomancer plays really well.

with elementalist, you’re forgetting that while all other classes get 5 skills, ele gets 8. the attunement system means an elementalist weapon is worth 4 similar weapons on any other class. Ele did get the short end of the stick, but not because of fewer (actually more) weapon skills.

This is a fair point that I hadn’t considered. Although, I still think that adding another mainhand weapon for Ele would unlock so much new potential for the class, of which Warhorn & overloading attunements have only scratched the surface.

The effectiveness and the fun factor of an elite spec do not depend on the amount of weapon skills that you can obtain. If that was the case, Elementalist would actually be in an amazing position with 8 weapon skills on warhorn, even though it is an offhand. Reaper also gets 5 weapon skills from GS and 5 from the new deathshroud. That must be the best elite spec, right?

Well… If you look at the feedback in these forums, you will see that Chronomancer, the spec with the least weapon skills, is the best so far. This is because the functionality of the new class mechanics and the trait lines are by far more important. When you trait into an elite spec, you are forced to take the traits and the class mechanic, while you don’t actually have to use the utilities or the weapon.

Imo, having a one-handed weapon does have advantages besides the shortcoming that you mentioned. It may have less skills, but it has more potential for combinations because you can use it with another weapon of your choice. My only gripe with all of this is that Anet decided to add no main hand weapons whatsoever, if the datamines are to be believed. What’s wrong with main hands? Is there some sort of design problem?

Edit: looks like some posters beat me to it with some of my points

Diovid.9506:

1. This has been brought up by many others already.

2. The chronomancer is a good place already even without a new main-hand weapon.

3. The tempest is not the best place it could be but that is not due to lacking a new main-hand weapon.

4. The dragonhunter and reaper are not in a better place than the chronomancer.

5. Unlike the reaper and dragonhunter, the chronomancer and tempest actually have more skills available to them at the same time than their base classes. In the case of the chronomancer this is due to their F5, in the case of the tempest this is due to Overloads.

6. The tempest’s warhorn doesn’t give 2 new skills like the off-hand of most profession but 8 new skills due to attunements.

7. Giving a main hand and an off-hand to an elite specialization is actually something entirely different from giving a two-handed weapon to an elite specialization because the amount of weapon-set combinations with a main-hand and off-hand is much higher (i.e. they can be combined with eachother but also with core weapons). Thus the balance of a new main-hand + off-hand is more complex than the balance of a new two-handed weapon.

1. I stated in my original post that I suspected that would be the case; I still want my opinion to be heard.

2. Chronomancer is in a “good” place, yes, but it doesn’t feel appreciably different than a core mesmer. That’s one thing that I think an additional weapon would improve.

3. I disagree; I think one reason the Tempest isn’t where it could be is because the existing mainhand weapons of the Ele don’t entirely lend themselves to the new playstyle introduced by overloading attunements. Dagger ele’s are better off just staying dagger ele’s (they are in a very good place!), and scepter ele’s aren’t as well suited to the upfront playstyle needed to make good use of overloading.

4. Agreed. I think that DH and Reaper also need work, but they are sufficiently diverse from their original core classes that the need is more of tweaking skills & traits than adding new utility.

5. This is true, Mesmer shatters and Ele overloads are in addition to existing skills & class mechanics, rather than reworks/replacements of existing mechanics like the changes to DH virtues and Reaper shroud. This doesn’t address my other concerns, however, which is that elite specs are supposed to make fundamental changes to how each class plays, not just add new toys to the toybox.

6. Admitted and agreed, I hadn’t thought of it this way when I made my original post.

7. I agree, the depth and complexity of adding split weapons sets to a class is much greater. That’s actually one of my points in favor of this suggestion, because I believe that those two classes in particular could benefit from having the additional gameplay options that a new mainhand weapon would provide. Is it more work for the devs? Without a doubt! Is it worth it to players and to these classes? Absolutely!

Ganathar.4956:

The effectiveness and the fun factor of an elite spec do not depend on the amount of weapon skills that you can obtain. If that was the case, Elementalist would actually be in an amazing position with 8 weapon skills on warhorn, even though it is an offhand. Reaper also gets 5 weapon skills from GS and 5 from the new deathshroud. That must be the best elite spec, right?

Well… If you look at the feedback in these forums, you will see that Chronomancer, the spec with the least weapon skills, is the best so far. This is because the functionality of the new class mechanics and the trait lines are by far more important. When you trait into an elite spec, you are forced to take the traits and the class mechanic, while you don’t actually have to use the utilities or the weapon.

Imo, having a one-handed weapon does have advantages besides the shortcoming that you mentioned. It may have less skills, but it has more potential for combinations because you can use it with another weapon of your choice. My only gripe with all of this is that Anet decided to add no main hand weapons whatsoever, if the datamines are to be believed. What’s wrong with main hands? Is there some sort of design problem?

Edit: looks like some posters beat me to it with some of my points

Obviously, I’m not advocating new weapon options just for the sake of numbers…you are correct in that the implementation and synergy of any new weapon option is more important. And I will also say that I believe ALL of the new elite specs we’ve seen (including Chronomancer!) could use some serious work on their trait lines.

However, I’m just reporting my opinion based on my short time trying out each new elite spec this weekend. While they are all clearly works in progress, I found the Tempest and Chronomancer to be largely “more of the same”….meaning that the classes did not feel sufficiently different from the their core classes to be really effective as elite specs. As I’ve said several times, it felt like playing with new toys in the same old toybox. For all their flaws, Reaper and Dragonhunter felt like I was playing a different class that felt somewhat familiar. Reaper was still a necro, but different. Would Tempest/Chrono be effective core specs? Sure, possibly, with a few tweaks. Are they worth being seen as something “special” or “elite?” No. And that’s the disparity I’m making this suggestion to address.

The problem is that by adding an extra weapon you create another discrepancy with elite specs, costumisability. A greatsword is a great sword and the skill you have while wielding a greatsword are fixed. With a main/off-hand weapon you can costumise your weapon skills by placing main/off hand that suits your needs which is a huge advantage that can’t be neglected.

Quality over quantity, friends. ^-^

I don’t care how many skills any class gets as long as they work well, have traits that have synergy, and are fun to use / play.

That should be the focus imo.

An OCD craving for pointless symmetry is NOT something they’re planning to satisfy.

They’ve said so explicitly.