Guild Wars 2

it’s hard to relate to the new characters, yeah, and it somehow feels as though the player’s character arc is over, and is instead sidelining for the character arc of NPC’s… it’s not interesting to sit and watch other characters take the limelight, WE are the heroes of Tyria after all, we had enough glory hogging from Traherne.

Kaleban.9834:

These and uncountable others use romance and love as a plot point, but the characters are not wholly defined by that love.

Romance should be used as a motivating factor, but not be the sole defining characteristic, which predictably results in the terrible fan-fiction quality writing reminiscent of Twilight.

Yes, and that’s why I find the B-Iconics boring. And as much crap as people give Logan about departing for Queen Jennah, that’s far more inline with Middle Age romances and tragedies than Destiny’s Edge 2.0 or whatever you want to call the B-Iconics.

When you think King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, do you think about the whiny portrayal of the movie First Knight (Richard Gere and Sean Connery), or the portrayal in movies such as The Sword in the Stone, Monty Python and the Holy Grail and Excalibur?

Honestly? Le Morte d’Arthur and its Norman-influenced courtly romances comes to mind more than anything you have listed. The Once and Future King feels less like an Arthurian fantasy epic and more like its deconstruction for the purpose of modern social commentary.

Hanako.1827:

It’s honestly a joke that to progress through the game, I have to do it with a cast of members I don’t like.

That YOU don’t like. I quite like the dynamic that a mixed-race team gives.
I’m especially curious to see how they react to Canach, since there hasn’t been a Sylvari in the group… And everyone’s just now realized that they’re minions of Mordremoth. (A dragon that killed Jory’s sister… and possibly Braham’s mother and Taimi’s mentor.)

Hanako.1827:

Braham and Rox are stale, Kasmeer and Marjory are just shoehorned lesbians that constantly flaunt the fact that they are together in our face

Again YOUR opinion. I think it’ll be interesting to see how Braham and Eir’s story plays out. Rox is a gladium, which is something that could still be fleshed out some more.

Kas and Jory aren’t really “flaunting” their relationship any more than any couple in modern games.

They kissed at the end of Season 1 because, well, it was the END. (Most game finales with someone rescuing/defending a romantic interest end in kissing.)

Keep in mind, it’s not for any “agenda” as it’s just developers being allowed to express themselves. (There was also a transexual mesmer introduced with the new Lion’s Arch.) There’s plenty of games with straight couples, and you don’t see homosexuals complaining that heterosexuality is being “flaunted.”

I think it’s wonderful that ArenaNet is promoting an inclusive environment that freely welcomes all players, regardless of race, gender identity, or sexual preference.

Minos.5168:

I quite like the dynamic that a mixed-race team gives.

Thankfully, Destiny’s Edge 2.0 is not the only mixed-race team and it’s certainly baffling to think that it’s either them or nothing in that regard.

I think we are all just expecting too much from an mmo storyline I’m gonna go read a book.

Hanako.1827:

Taimi though being really cool isn’t all that unique and special, just another disgruntled Asura.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, because I don’t have an Asuran character, but isn’t she the only Asuran who has a physical disability that uses her golem to overcome this? He’ll, isn’t she about the only physically disabled character that we have in the game? Physically diasabled characters are so often depicted as weaker or depedent on others. In terms of MMOs, this is one of the most unique and strongest characters written. And I’m sure the physically disabled people who play GW2 love seeing themselves represented as independent and fully capable of living their lives. Disgruntled? She literally shrugs off her degenerative disease and is ready to fight an elder Dragon.

But sure…she’s not unique at all?

sebradle.7034:

I think we are all just expecting too much from an mmo storyline I’m gonna go read a book.

Except this is the company that gave us the epic Factions and Nightfall storylines.

Sorin.4310:

Hanako.1827:

Taimi though being really cool isn’t all that unique and special, just another disgruntled Asura.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, because I don’t have an Asuran character, but isn’t she the only Asuran who has a physical disability that uses her golem to overcome this? He’ll, isn’t she about the only physically disabled character that we have in the game? Physically diasabled characters are so often depicted as weaker or depedent on others. In terms of MMOs, this is one of the most unique and strongest characters written. And I’m sure the physically disabled people who play GW2 love seeing themselves represented as independent and fully capable of living their lives. Disgruntled? She literally shrugs off her degenerative disease and is ready to fight an elder Dragon.

But sure…she’s not unique at all?

She, as a member of a small and physically weak race whose members use technomantic devices to overcome their physical handicaps relative to the larger more physically powerful races, uses a technomantic device in essentially the same way. According to the lore of the setting, as it relates to her race, she is a small, physically weak (relative to members of the other races) member of a small physically weak race. A norn might not even notice that she is physically different from any other asura.

Were she a norn her condition might have been noteworthy. Being a physically weak member of a race known for physical power might stand out. Being a physically weak member of a race known for being physically puny does not.

Sorin.4310:

Hanako.1827:

Taimi though being really cool isn’t all that unique and special, just another disgruntled Asura.

He’ll, isn’t she about the only physically disabled character that we have in the game? Physically diasabled characters are so often depicted as weaker or depedent on others.

Tybalt Leftpaw would have a word with you… if he weren’t dead.

Hanako.1827:

Kasmeer and Marjory are just shoehorned lesbians that constantly flaunt the fact that they are together in our face

Remember that the next time you see a heterosexual couple kissing in public, wearing rings, holding hands, referring to each other, and so on. For some reason it is only when non-straight couples make it obvious they are a couple that it is “flaunting it in your face”.

Menadena.7482:

Hanako.1827:

Kasmeer and Marjory are just shoehorned lesbians that constantly flaunt the fact that they are together in our face

Remember that the next time you see a heterosexual couple kissing in public, wearing rings, holding hands, referring to each other, and so on. For some reason it is only when non-straight couples make it obvious they are a couple that it is “flaunting it in your face”.

Could be worse. If they were men i’m sure the stink would be even bigger.
We’ve come a long way, but there’s still a good way to go.

Menadena.7482:

Hanako.1827:

Kasmeer and Marjory are just shoehorned lesbians that constantly flaunt the fact that they are together in our face

Remember that the next time you see a heterosexual couple kissing in public, wearing rings, holding hands, referring to each other, and so on. For some reason it is only when non-straight couples make it obvious they are a couple that it is “flaunting it in your face”.

Go outside. That rarely ever happen.

With Majory and Kasmeer it’s referenced a lot not only by them but by other NPC’s

Genesis.8572:

sebradle.7034:

I think we are all just expecting too much from an mmo storyline I’m gonna go read a book.

Except this is the company that gave us the epic Factions and Nightfall storylines.

Now I enjoyed Factions and Nightfall but can you tell me much about the heroes who travelled with us? What was Tahlkora like? What was Sousuke like?

This is what I’m meaning hero teams are hard to do (you need to make space for the player character), Factions and Nightfall had good lore (I wasn’t a fan of the Abaddon did everything thing) and some great characters but the ones we ran about with weren’t super memorable.

Master Togo was Factions’ Trahearne and I liked him a lot, weird I didn’t take to Trahearne the same way – I guess I was just a lot younger (something we all tend to forget) or the sacrifice at the end was just a better story choice.

We all want better writing but I still think people are down on Kas and friends way too much.

Menadena.7482:

Hanako.1827:

Kasmeer and Marjory are just shoehorned lesbians that constantly flaunt the fact that they are together in our face

Remember that the next time you see a heterosexual couple kissing in public, wearing rings, holding hands, referring to each other, and so on. For some reason it is only when non-straight couples make it obvious they are a couple that it is “flaunting it in your face”.

No, actually. It’s considered flaunting when straight people do it too.

Hanako.1827:

Menadena.7482:

Hanako.1827:

Kasmeer and Marjory are just shoehorned lesbians that constantly flaunt the fact that they are together in our face

Remember that the next time you see a heterosexual couple kissing in public, wearing rings, holding hands, referring to each other, and so on. For some reason it is only when non-straight couples make it obvious they are a couple that it is “flaunting it in your face”.

Go outside. That rarely ever happen.

With Majory and Kasmeer it’s referenced a lot not only by them but by other NPC’s

I have been outside. That’s common. They are your main companions, so of course you see people commenting on them.

Your bigoted attitude is, unfortunately, not unique. The mere fact that queer characters exist, at all, is reason enough for some to suggest they are “flaunting it”. Basically, behaving like any couple would, somehow different rules apply because they are gay. No one ever says this sort of thing about straight characters.

You see this in various media too – movies, TV, etc. If they include a gay character, the thinking is they’re only putting it in to be controversial. And everyone sexualizes them.

Even the comments in this thread are appalling. Comments like “there only there because lesbians.” and transphobic jokes. This game has a trans character, so that one was particularly awful.

Personally, I like how ANet have added all these characters. I hope they add even more. Lots more. The game could be even more diverse. I mean, the game has thousands of characters, and a handful aren’t straight, white males and y’all come here and complain? Don’t make me laugh.

Starlightpaw.5871:

Menadena.7482:

Hanako.1827:

Kasmeer and Marjory are just shoehorned lesbians that constantly flaunt the fact that they are together in our face

Remember that the next time you see a heterosexual couple kissing in public, wearing rings, holding hands, referring to each other, and so on. For some reason it is only when non-straight couples make it obvious they are a couple that it is “flaunting it in your face”.

No, actually. It’s considered flaunting when straight people do it too.

Please direct me to all the posts with people complaining about straight people “flaunting it”.

summary of this thread
some people hate both DE and DE 2.0
some people like DE but not DE 2.0
some people hate DE but like DE 2.0

and some people like both

the summary? no clear winner. Anet continue on a straight course(well….not exactly straight…..u know what i mean. continue on the course your on)

I actually quite like our little group. I’m not a big fan of the ‘boss’ thing, but I can handle that. At least we’re being addressed directly by them, which is nice.

I do think the Kas/Jory relationship was added too early. I would’ve liked to see their relationship develop at a slower pace. Let little hints drop, let them be best friends before realising that they might want more than friendship. I think that would’ve saved us quite some sappy conversations in between battles.

MashMash.1645:

I have been outside. That’s common. They are your main companions, so of course you see people commenting on them.

Your bigoted attitude is, unfortunately, not unique. The mere fact that queer characters exist, at all, is reason enough for some to suggest they are “flaunting it”. Basically, behaving like any couple would, somehow different rules apply because they are gay. No one ever says this sort of thing about straight characters.

You see this in various media too – movies, TV, etc. If they include a gay character, the thinking is they’re only putting it in to be controversial. And everyone sexualizes them.

Even the comments in this thread are appalling. Comments like “there only there because lesbians.” and transphobic jokes. This game has a trans character, so that one was particularly awful.

Personally, I like how ANet have added all these characters. I hope they add even more. Lots more. The game could be even more diverse. I mean, the game has thousands of characters, and a handful aren’t straight, white males and y’all come here and complain? Don’t make me laugh.

But why is their relationship being mentioned all the time? If they were a straight couple it would be mentioned once or twice, not every time you pass by a new NPC. Ok, that’s obviously an exaggeration, but I’m trying to make the point that it is simply mentioned more than it needs to be. Let me also add that this would still be an issue IF THEY WERE A STRAIGHT COUPLE. It’s annoying, REGARDLESS of sexuality, when a relationship is being mentioned all the time. Yes, ok, we get it, they are together, can we talk about Mordremoth now?

Now I’m not the person you were talking to, but using ad hominem to support your argument isn’t very helpful. And I can’t speak for the person you were talking to, but I don’t mind homosexual characters if they have more going for them than just their sexuality. Their sexual preference should NOT be the defining factor of a characters’ personality, straight, gay, or whatever. It makes the character look like they were only put in there for diversity purposes, and that is simply not good story writing.

And aren’t character, by mentioning their sexuality over and over and over again, sexualizing themselves? I’m not just talking about gay people either. Having ANYONE do ANYTHING sexual is considered sexualization, by definition. Of course, I don’t think Kas and Marj are super bad culprits of this, because they seriously could be worse, but the point is I want to see more of WHO THEY ARE beyond their relationship. At this point, if one of them dies, the one who is living is going to become nothing but an ineffective backstory. The writers need to stress their individual personalities more, that’s all I really want. (Well, that and more focus on MY character, since I’m supposed to be the “boss.”)

It’s funny that you quoted me and the one line that I said in my initial, very vague comment instead of reading beyond that to my other comment in which I said, “They ARE more than just lesbians, but it doesn’t feel like they are since their relationship is at the forefront of their ‘character development.’” I expand even further beyond that in the same comment about why I feel the way I feel about these characters.

Diversity for the sake of diversity is a terrible idea. When writing in solely focused on getting as many demographics in the story as possible, then they lose focus on what the story is supposed to be about. I’m not saying I’m against diversity. I’m saying that you can add in as many black, lesbian, whatever minority people as you want as long as they are MORE than their skin color or sexuality. Of course giving side NPCs that don’t matter backstories and complex personalities because they are a minority is just useless, because they are just side NPCs. But the point I’m trying to make here is that no one should be given special treatment in the story because of their sexuality or skin color or anything like that.

Who here is actually complaining about these characters JUST because they are lesbians? Most of us are constructively criticizing the writing. Like I said in a previous comment, “Let’s pretend for a moment that Marjory was a dude and he feel in love with Kasmeer or vice versa. That would mean that they would be a straight couple, and guess what, I still wouldn’t like it. Why? Because they have no personality. They are just there, and they happen to be in a relationship. It doesn’t matter what KIND of relationship, I don’t care that they’re lesbians, but outside of this relationship there’s nothing extraordinary about who they are as individual characters.”

I hope I made you laugh your kitten off.

MashMash.1645:

Starlightpaw.5871:

Menadena.7482:

Hanako.1827:

Kasmeer and Marjory are just shoehorned lesbians that constantly flaunt the fact that they are together in our face

Remember that the next time you see a heterosexual couple kissing in public, wearing rings, holding hands, referring to each other, and so on. For some reason it is only when non-straight couples make it obvious they are a couple that it is “flaunting it in your face”.

No, actually. It’s considered flaunting when straight people do it too.

Please direct me to all the posts with people complaining about straight people “flaunting it”.

Sorry, did I just not complain about straight people “flaunting it?” It’s the post you replied to, in case you didn’t notice. Also I’m pretty sure a lot of people criticized Logan Thackery’s relationship with the Queen back when that was relevant.

Curae.1837:

I do think the Kas/Jory relationship was added too early. I would’ve liked to see their relationship develop at a slower pace. Let little hints drop, let them be best friends before realising that they might want more than friendship. I think that would’ve saved us quite some sappy conversations in between battles.

I agree with this. Their relationship seemed to happen too fast, which I think really took away from more character development, both individual and between them. It just feels really forced, like a lot of things in this games’ story, unfortunately.

Yes, “straight people” flaunt it too, but because it’s the “norm” we don’t make as big a deal out of it. But straight or otherwise, all new couples go through this “rose colored glasses” or “honeymoon” phase. Just went through this with two (now ex) guildies that decided they were going to “be a couple.” They’re straight. They did the the same lovey dovey cooing crap with each other. To the point where I actually couldn’t stand playing with them anymore, and gods forbid one play without the other if the other was online. You’d swear they were conjoined twins where it was physically impossible to separate them without killing one of them. I wanted to pull my hair out.

Hanako.1827:

Can we please have nothing to do with Destiny Edge 2.0 when this expansion hits? They would serve much better as small packs of friends finding their own journey through Maguuma that we sometimes meet in-between our adventures, granted you might find the team enjoyable if you have a taste for bad dialect and story telling but most of us don’t like them.

It’s honestly a joke that to progress through the game, I have to do it with a cast of members I don’t like. Braham and Rox are stale, Kasmeer and Marjory are just shoehorned lesbians that constantly flaunt the fact that they are together in our face, tied together with the worst voice acting I have ever heard and Taimi though being really cool isn’t all that unique and special, just another disgruntled Asura. And as a character doing my story with them I can’t help but feel like a watcher of their drama with absolutely no inclusion in what they are doing.

Please don’t make them essential to the story in HoTS…

I too dislike them greatly – I find them to be very one dimensional and simply boring. Not the kind of people I’d want fighting at my side at all.
If Anet wants to look at well designed characters they could take a look at the Companions in GW1 – Cynn, Devona, Aidan, Mhelno and Eve were a part of your journey without being obnoxious – like most of the new characters are ( K&M and Braham especially).

It would have been cool if they had designed more of these characters and allowed you to pick whichever one you wanted to join you – sort of like having one companion that you get to choose – it wouldn’t have meant much more work since we already have 5 in place – just would have allowed people who dislike them to not have to put up with them.

MashMash.1645:

Starlightpaw.5871:

Menadena.7482:

Hanako.1827:

Kasmeer and Marjory are just shoehorned lesbians that constantly flaunt the fact that they are together in our face

Remember that the next time you see a heterosexual couple kissing in public, wearing rings, holding hands, referring to each other, and so on. For some reason it is only when non-straight couples make it obvious they are a couple that it is “flaunting it in your face”.

No, actually. It’s considered flaunting when straight people do it too.

Please direct me to all the posts with people complaining about straight people “flaunting it”.

Please provide an example of a straight couple among the core/main characters. Hard to complain about straight couples flaunting it when there aren’t any straight couples.

Curae.1837:

I do think the Kas/Jory relationship was added too early. I would’ve liked to see their relationship develop at a slower pace. Let little hints drop, let them be best friends before realising that they might want more than friendship.

Thats a very high school sort of romance though, I don’t become romanticly attached to someone by “being their best friend first” and neither do most people who aren’t in school. They are grown women they aren’t going to be best friends then suddenly realise “omg I’m attracted to her!”

How often do fantasy or action characters become best friends before getting involved compared with those who don’t? The speed they got together was entirely reasonable – also they were locked in that nightmare tower for a long time together dealing with horrific visions – I’m sure they bonded very quickly there (though yes I would have liked to have seen more of that).

foamknight.8534:

Does anyone here watch Trailer Park Boys? The two antagonists, Lahey and Randy are obviously gay. But nobody gives a kitten. Those characters have so much more to offer than their sexuality. Its not their defining trait. Because who should give a kitten if they’re gay or no?. They’re not special for that reason, you know, because of equality and what not.

Lahey and Randy are not “obviously gay”, which is how that entire joke operates. The “ambiguously gay” gag is typically built around idea of a person or group who display behaviors normally associated with a particular group, but not displaying any of the explicitly defining behaviors that would classify them as such- or at the very least “not acknowledging” it themselves. The emphasis I put on “not acknowledging” it is important, as its distinctly different then aggressive “denial”, which is acknowledgement of the subject. In fact, this joke works best when it doesn’t have a punch line, since the ambiguity is a major part of it.

A sub-category of this is the “Bro-mance”. Bromances display every aspect of a romantic relationship EXCEPT the sexual aspect. The level of execution varies; But when done well people simply assume their gay when the characters actually aren’t. And this is what irritates me about Seth Rogen…. Overall, this is huge part of his Schick. But everytime he tries to “work this angle” it comes off as try hard, causing the joke to lose potency. Comparing how it played out in Pineapple express verses how it played out in The Interview, the bromance jokes in The Interview would had been a lot funnier if they didn’t push them so hard.

But a major indicator that Randy and Lahey executed this joke so well, is that if they revealed they actually were gay, it wouldn’t be met by any fan fair at all. Most people would simply shrug and say “guess they were gay”.

Oddly enough, this joke isn’t anywhere near as easy using women as the subject.